 Back once again with another edition of Pacious on the News, as you know, we have politicians, some famous, some not so famous. We have a lot of people whose names are in newspapers, and we talk about public policy. Occasionally, we've talked about people who have created something. We've had two or three authors on. And tonight, I'm pleased to say we have the author of a book that is just fascinating. Her name is Gigi Georges. She's sitting right over here. Gigi, welcome. Thank you, Al. It's great to be here this evening with you. And Gigi is from New York. We'll get into that a little bit. Brought up in Brooklyn. She's from Wellesley College and degrees at Princeton and NYU of graduate degrees. Worked in politics, worked in Washington, worked in the Clinton White House, has done a lot of things in her life. She and her husband, Jeff, decided that they'd want to live in a big city. They wanted to live in a more rural area, and they liked Northern New England. They have a home in Southwest Harbor on Mount Desert Island, and they live part of the time in Bedford, New Hampshire, suburb of Manchester. Gigi wrote a book that a lot of people are becoming aware of. This is the book cover, and it's called Down East, Five Main Girls and the Unseen Story of Rural America. And at the beginning, I'd like to read something that's written toward the end of this book that I think captures the essence of the book. And then we're going to ask Gigi to talk about this book and talk about her experiences writing about these five girls from Washington County, Maine, and how it relates to the rest of our society and the rest of our country. She said the data that she had studied before beginning on this Odyssey with the book had forewarned me and depictions of challenges at every turn, relayed by people who had lived in the region in Washington County, Down East, and had brought that struggle to life. I thought once I was there, once she was there in Washington County, that I'd see the rural America that many of us originally from urban areas had come to expect, towns frayed by loss and abandonment, patchworks of economic blight, physical isolation, and social deterioration. She says, and I found these two. But beneath the weight of shared troubles, I found something else. And this is what this book is about. The energy of shared community, helping ease burdens in ways that well-meaning strangers and codified institutions could never do. I watched and listened and partook. I developed friendships that have enriched me in untold ways. And along the way, I realized what I was witnessing was the glow of what some might think was a lost America. It wasn't perfect, far from it. In some ways, it was particular to place. But in most meaningful of ways, this glow was rooted in people's outlook and choices rather than their economic circumstances or demography. This book gives people hope. It encourages us. We're constantly encountering bad news. This is good news. Gigi, I want to first ask you a little bit about your background. And then, you know, we want to know if you have these insights and you had this urge to write about Down East Maine, Washington County, and these girls. So you tell us a little bit about your background. Absolutely, Harold. And let me start by saying how pleased I am to be with you and to be able to have this conversation. And thank you for reading that passage, because I know we'll come back to it, but that passage in particular is very much the essence of what Down East is about and of the message that I'm trying to convey in the broader discussion and the broader narrative about rural America, an optimistic and hopeful one, despite the many challenges that many people in rural places, including Down East Maine, but beyond it face. I came to this book, to the writing, the reporting and writing of this book through a long series of journeys. I'm an urban kid, born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, about as far from rural America as one could imagine in terms of that experience. And I went on to work on urban issues in urban places through my career. And what happened that really provided the spark for this book was that my husband and I, as you mentioned, living in New York City, made the decision to move to Northern New England. My husband had already found Maine before he met me and had bought a little place in Southwest Harbor. And I fell in love with Southwest Harbor as I fell in love with him. And we began to raise our young daughter, who's now 10, in these more rural places. I started to look around. And what I was seeing was not the same as what I was hearing from media, from a lot of the accounts about hopelessness and despair in rural America. And I wanted to widen the lens. I wanted to tell a story about a rural place, about people in that rural place. And in particular about the perspective of young women, which had not been heard from the point of view of that hope and optimism of that strength and community. And so I began that journey with the help of a very dear friend, the Reverend Scott Planting, who ran the Seacoast Mission, the Maine Seacoast Mission based in Bar Harbor at the time. I went to him. I sat down with my husband, Jeff, with him. And I said, I want to write from a different perspective. Where can I go? Who can I talk to? And he said, go up the road about an hour, Washington County. You don't have to go far, get in your car and drive up the coast. And I'll introduce you to a few people. And I think what you'll find there will surprise you. And it did. And so you began to connect with people and develop friendships there. Yes. And then when did you decide to write a book about it? So I had in mind to do some sort of writing project from the time that we sat down with Scott Planting. I actually thought it might be a little bit more of an academic work because I have that background in academic policy, particularly education policy. It was when I sat down with the young people at Narraguegas High in Harrington in Downey Swashenden County that I knew that there was a broader book for a broader audience just sitting there in the hearts and minds of these young people. I get the impression that many of them wanted to talk to you, wanted to tell you about their lives. Yes. So it's really interesting, Harold. I had this sort of introduction from Scott, and he sent me over to the school superintendent up there. I love School District 37, sat down with this superintendent, wonderful man. We sat there for two hours. I was anxious because I—you know, here I am, an outsider, an urbanite really, a transplant from away. He welcomed me. And he sent me—we sat. We had a great conversation. He sent me over to the school principal at Narraguegas. She was absolutely lovely. And she said—I said, can I talk to some young people? And she said, let's set up some informal focus groups. And we did that for a day. I met with a series of young people in small groups, and they were so open and so willing to talk about their experiences, their hopes, the challenges, but also their connection to down East Washington County, to the place, was what really showed through. And I knew there was something about that that I had to explore along with this other thing that jumped out at me that became a core theme in the book. And that is the way in which the young women were excelling, surpassing the boys in many respects in academics, in extracurriculars, in athletics, in leadership inside and outside of the high school. And I thought that the combination of this sort of optimistic theme that I kept hearing and the way in which these young women seemed to be rocking it was fodder for something that had not yet been tapped into in the broad rural literature. That's very interesting because I think it's been observed in other—not just in rural areas, but in many places where the young women are emerging as much more of a factor than some of the boys. Some people say that the girls mature faster than the boys, and they have a lot of psychological reasons for this. But it's a fact. So you settle on five women, five girls, and you're told their stories, and you really tell their stories. In some cases you change their names to protect their privacy, but three of them have emerged and said, this is who I am. And they have great stories. The girls are different, but they used to small school. They knew each other very well. Totally different backgrounds. By that I mean some had strong parents and some had terrible parents. And yet they were friends, and they cared about each other. Absolutely, very much. And it's interesting because two of the young women, one Josie in the book, who has since come out and done some media and revealed her name as Sophia to Schiffert, she goes on, she's the class valedictorian, and she goes on to attend Yale. And she is just, you know, shooting for the stars. And she's got this very intact family. Her grandparents are actually back to the Landers from Pennsylvania, and the family they moved to Maine. They moved to Maine, right. And they settle in Cherryfield. And the parents really raise the girls with books and music and love of culture. And it's such a strong family, and they have strong faith. And she is on one end of the spectrum, one might say, of the girls. And on the other end is Willow, a wonderful, beautiful young woman, really, really bright, tough circumstances, moved seven times before she's eight because she is growing up in a house with substance abuse and physical abuse from her with her father. And so she's really struggling to find her way at a young age. And between these two young women who are in the same class, there's a bond. And Josie really looks out for Willow to this day and is protective of her. And it's interesting to see that, that connection, frankly, among all the girls, and the way in which that connection reflects something bigger. And that is, as you alluded to, that tremendous community strength, the way in which neighbors help neighbors. And even in families that are not intact, and there are too many in Downey's Washington County of those, that you have other families looking out for them. You have Willow, for example, another young woman in the book, Vivian, her family, Vivian's family takes Willow in for a period of time. You have mentors in the school who really wrap their arms around these young women and these young people. And you have this sense that, from the ground up, there is a necessity of looking towards each other and helping each other when the things are stacked against you. And that is a very meaningful and deep piece, that piece of social capital, that I think we often overlook when we tell the broader rural story. Are they aware, they're sensitive to the fact that people in Cumberland County look and say, oh, there's a lot of poverty there, and a lot of opioids, and a lot of family problems in this rural, poor, they're aware that that's people's opinion? They are. They are. They're aware of the reflection back on them. And this was another motivating piece toward telling this story in the way that I told it, because I strongly believe that if there is less of that reflection back towards especially these young people in that way, that it will be perhaps the greatest help to them as they try to find their way. And this is what I mean by it. The young people hear what they perceive as sort of the urban elite perspective. I think the community more broadly feels it. It's not just the young people. This notion that they're a place that's filled with hopelessness, that they are, that their lives are dead-ended if they choose to stay in these rural places. They see the pictures that are created, the images that really key in on these negative aspects of rural life. And yet at the same time, while they're facing challenges that are real, they by and large don't perceive their lives at all in that way. They're hugely self-sufficient. They take pride in the work ethic that they've been raised on. They do not view themselves as victims. I was so struck by the way Willow never viewed herself as a victim. They see the connection to the place that they've grown up in, particularly the connection to the natural surroundings that sustain them as something of a jewel. And in some ways, they feel sorry for the urbanites because they don't get to experience that. So it's a really a fascinating way that things get turned upside down from the perceptions and the preconceptions that we so often, frankly, share and hear from more urban places. And so somebody in New York or Boston or Portland says, oh, those poor kids up there, those kids, they feel lucky that they're in a community like that. Absolutely, absolutely. And it's really interesting, Harold, because this is not to discount that there will always be and there are some young people, and understandably so and rightly so, who want to leave. They may want to leave and chart a new course. They may see other opportunities outside of their communities because economic opportunities are limited and there are only certain silos of industry and opportunity that you need to fit into. So there are for some the right choice, that for some the right choice is to leave and perhaps never to come back or perhaps to come back after a time. But for many, for the vast majority, the choice that they want to make is to stay and build and to be a part of that community, to continue to be surrounded by all of those elements that I just described. They feel at home, they feel fortunate despite the challenges, and they are looking optimistically toward the future. So it is a really big piece, I think, of the narrative that comes down on them that is missing. It's a counter narrative that says it's okay to stay and build. It's okay to want to be a part of the community that you were raised in. It's also okay to leave, but one choice is not better or weightier than the other. If they stay, this is typical of any rural area, if they stay, the opportunities are limited. I mean, there are not many different things you can do, right? But many want to do those, that handful of things. Yes, and what's interesting about that is, so I was really struck by a sign that's posted very prominently in the hallway of Narraguegas High. I saw it the first time I went into the high school, and I spent a lot of time there over the years that I reported this book. It says staying isn't settling, staying isn't settling. And underneath the sign are pictures of alums with little captions about the things that they've gone on to do career-wise and job-wise that have kept them, allowed them to stay in the Down East Washington County region. And so what the principle in the administration is signaling is, more than signaling, is saying is, look, there are ways to build your life here beyond what you might otherwise think. And so there are opportunities. There is, of course, lobster fishing, which is a big piece of the economy there. But that is not available to everyone, as you know. And then there is the blueberry farming industry and the jobs that come with that around the blueberry industry there. But there are other jobs. There are obviously teaching and social service-oriented jobs. They don't necessarily pay as well, of course, so there are limitations on that. But there is another track that they're pursuing very vigorously, having just opened a new career and technical education center right in the heart of Down East Washington County. It was something the parents lobbied really hard for. I went to some meetings at the high school gym that were packed to the rafters with parents begging for this vocational center, this career and technical education center, be cited right in their community, because there are so many jobs that come from that kind of training. And there are a lot of kids who want those jobs and want to pursue that track as opposed to traditional liberal arts education. And it's important not to discount that, too. So how long did, before you started writing, did you spend, you know, from time to time, maybe a month up there before you started writing, or did you start writing almost immediately? So I started sketching out ideas from the very start, but I didn't really start writing in earnest until I had spent quite a bit of time with the young women. So over the course of the years that I researched and reported, I would regularly go up to their towns to sit with them, interview them, and then when they went off to college, I would go and visit them on their college campuses. I went out on the lobster boat with McKenna, one of the young women who is a spitfire, and a lobster boat captain at the age of 17. She starts fishing when she's eight. And I went out and I sterned with her, or for her, and she taught me how to. And she put up with my very poor sterning. And so I really went... So you're a Brooklyn lobster woman. I am. I'm in training, a lobster woman in training. And it was great. I went out in the blueberry fields, Vivian's family has blueberry farms in Columbia, and we went out during raking season. And so what I did was I really tried to delve into the experience of their lives as much as possible, returning and returning, eventually spending time with families, with friends, with mentors, obviously, and digging in so that I could get their perspective and allow them, essentially, to tell the story through my words. And it was an incredible experience, and these women are so remarkable. Are they your friends now? They are. I'm proud to call them my friends. And I'm proud to be in touch with them. And we have this little group chat because, of course, they're Gen Zers and Gen Zers text. That's what they do. They don't talk on the phone. So we've got a group chat going, and I check in with them individually as well. And it's a joy. We got to visit. My husband, Jeff, and I got to visit with Willow over the summer and met her fiance. And he's a scallop boat fisherman. He goes down to Massachusetts for periods of time. And it was just a lovely visit. And he came out of there, a little house, and brought these big bags of scallops. And really it was a joy to be able to connect, not only connect, be able to connect Jeff with Willow, whom I've come to just love and adore and care for so much, but to be able to connect with her fiance and to see the way in which, despite all the travails that she's been through, she has come out the other side stronger than ever. See, that's, again, hope. When I was reading your book and your descriptions of Willow's life, I thought, this young lady, and she was a teenager when she told you these things, she was very candid with you about her life, which was awful. Which was awful. She grew up an awful life. And oftentimes, you hear about that and you say, this kid has no chance. But she had a chance because of her, because of who she was, not because of her environment, because of who she was. Yeah. I think she's a very strong person. I know she's a very strong person. This is such a strong theme throughout all of the young women in this book. She also did benefit from tremendous mentorship in the school, in particular the art teacher who is known as Franny in the book, Britt Francis. And Britt Francis saw something in Willow from the start of her high school career. And she noticed that Willow had an affinity and a love for photography. And she nurtured that. And she developed a friendship really with her, as she did with many of the young women, a few of the young women in the book. And she showed Willow that she could find an outlet and an expression through her photography. And Willow just found so much joy in that. And her photos to this day, I have a number of them and I show them often at book talks because they're so beautiful and they serve a dual purpose. The first is to show the talent and the way in which Willow used that talent to find an outlet for herself, as I said. The second is that she takes these amazing pictures of the natural beauty of Down East Washington County, which is so overlooked. It is every bit as beautiful as Acadia. And she captures it. And it is stunning. And it's emotional. And it's evocative. And I think that that is also a very important part of the story. And so Willow, who came through the crucible of terrible upbringing, is a very good photographer. And her schoolmate, and Chum, is a senior at Yale University majoring in archaeology. That is at the juxtaposition of that. It is fascinating. And you wonder whether, in a big city school, you could have that. But these kids, there were only 130 kids or 150 kids in the school. And so they know each other. They know each other. They know each other. And it's the good and the bad of that. Of course, Willow talked about how her name, her family name, followed her around. And she had to break free from that. So there is some of that. But they know each other. And a lot of them just look out for each other. And I think about some of the other young women in the book. I think about the story of Audrey Barton, too, who is the basketball star in the book. And she's a natural leader. And she goes on to get this coveted scholarship at Bates College. And she, in many ways, I think is sort of emblematic of that central theme of the book that we started with. Because she has this opportunity to, quote, get out, to go to Bates and to go soar, right? And she's playing basketball as a freshman at Bates. And she is continuing to excel academically in her freshman year. And along the way, she looks at her experience. And she says, this doesn't feel right. She misses Down East. She misses her family and her community, which she was very much intertwined in. And she cannot find the curriculum that she needs at Bates to pursue what she wants to do, which is to become a speech pathologist, to go back to the Down East region, and to serve those who need those services. And those services are sorely needed in the region. So she makes what many would think is a very difficult decision. But it wasn't difficult for her to leave Bates, to transfer to Humane Orono, and to be close to home, to go and lobster fish in the summers, to pursue her graduate degree at Humane Orono, where she is now, to be a speech pathologist and work with young people, and to coach. She's coaching the kids back in her old elementary school. And so she represents this stay and build theme, this idea that you can choose, and happily so, to return or to stay, and that that decision is like gold to these communities, to have Audrey Barton, who's since come out and revealed her names, Kelly Kennedy, to have Audrey Barton, Kelly Kennedy, say, no, I want to stay. And you know that she's going to be at the forefront of what's to come in these towns and in this region. Reading the book, I sense there was developing affection not only for the girls that you write about, but for the region that has been kind of bombarded with bad publicity. And people say, oh, they're in trouble up there. And you say, no, they're not in trouble, because they have these human beings that like it, that have talent, that want to stay and build. What are the people up there? The book is probably pretty well known in Washington County, in Cherryfield, and Machiahs, and papers like that. What's the reaction? This lady came here and wrote these things about us and told all of our secrets? Or is it, no, she says we're all right. This is the thing that I've been most gratified by, Harold, and that is that it has been so welcomed. And it has been a tremendous experience to be able to go back, which I have quite a few times, to spend time to talk about the book. I was up at Porter Memorial Library over the summer in Machiahs and also spent some time at some other venues at the Jonesboro Grange and a couple of other places just talking about the book and talking to local folks about the book. And the outpouring of support has been tremendous. Really? It's been wonderful. Even though you're right that they have a problem with drugs and all of it, but you say that and it's true, but you talk about hope and that these people can manage pretty well for themselves. Yeah, and I really feel it's interesting, because I've had people come up to me, local people come up to me and say, you know, and this has been really moving to me to say thank you for writing this because we feel like we really are unseen. And we want outsiders to understand what's rich and valuable about our lives. And it is not to say there is no whitewashing, there is no Pollyanna about it, right? They know, look, there is not a family in the region who is not in some way been untouched by the opioid crisis. That's real. They know that there are troubles. They understand the economic woes. They live them. But their perspective, their point of view and their way of living is not to dwell, not to get up every morning. Most of them, well, before the crack of dawn because they're going out fishing, to get up every morning and say, you know, we've got troubles, but we have something real here that we love and that is unique and that frankly they believe is far better than what they would have were they in a different environment. And they're grateful. And they're grateful. So people kind of drawn to nostalgia and in search of the small town America that they think existed a hundred years ago. And nostalgia is very important in today's confused society. A lot of people, I get emails all the time. Do you remember when all these nice things happened in these small communities? And what you're saying is that they still do, that there is still that mutual support caring as my one-time boss used to say he grew up in a town where people cared, knew when you were sick and cared and mourned you when you died and that's the case there. I mean, there is a bond. There is a bond and it's not based in nostalgia, right? But it is based in something I think much deeper and more sustaining and that is that core sense of community and that sense of resilience together in the face of challenges. And it is not to say that it's very interesting actually and I write about this later in the book from the perspective of Audrey, the basketball star, as she and I sit with her mother and grandmother who has since passed. And her grandmother sort of does reflect a little bit of that nostalgia piece, which is she bemoans the progress, right? And she bemoans that the highway has come. And she misses the days when you could just walk down to the local drug store and she looks at the cell phones and she says the smartphones and she says, this is just ruining everything, right? She sort of is on the other side of that progress conversation. Audrey represents progress in that unique rural sense of it, in that she is respectful of and tied to the traditions of her place. She is rooted to place and she honors it. And she honors her grandmother whilst having a different point of view about what it means to progress. And in her view, she sort of represents that bridge toward the future, toward pulling her community to a different place, both socially and economically and in some ways culturally while still respecting and honoring what's in the past. It occurs to me that if you wrote about the boys, it might be a different story. Now what is about these girls that they achieve things, they can sit and talk to you and reveal all these things about themselves and find the inner strength to go on and to be what they want. And like, what is it about girls, I want to this an interesting distinction, I'm interested in it because I'm a boy. Yes, yes, and I think this distinction is true not only in Downey, Washington County. I think there's a broader sort of societal theme here around girls and boys that we're witnessing in this moment. And it's not to say that the boys aren't strong in their own way, but they are different. And they are not emerging as much as the leaders. And they are not excelling as much academically or even athletically and in other ways. There's a lot of conversation about that. I sat down with hundreds of people in and connected to the region and in almost every one of my interviews I asked about what they thought was going on. And no one had a great answer. I do think that the principle of the high school was on to something when she said, we had a long conversation about this, and she said, you know, I do wonder if in lifting up our girls so much as we have been, we've taken great pains to do so, whether we have inadvertently sent a signal to our boys that maybe somehow they're lesser than. And I don't know if that is the whole story, but I suspect there is a piece, a thread that is true in that statement. You know, I live in an affluent community, Cape Elizabeth, and every year the local weekly newspaper publishes the list of the graduating seniors and a little bit about the top ten and where they're going. And this is anecdotal, but I have the sense that about eight out of ten are girls. On average, every year, 70 or 80 percent of the top students are girls. Yes. It might have been that way when I was in high school. Right, right. It would be interesting to go back and see, right, right. But you see that carrying through another, as when I went to law school, I went to Georgetown and there was probably 200 students in my class. Three were women. Yeah. Now, if you go to Georgetown Law School, the majority are women, maybe 55 percent or something. Same in medical school, same in the Congress is growing all the time in state legislature. So I think part of it is women have many natural strengths that men don't have and we're now seeing. Many of the barriers have been removed. I think that's right and it's really interesting too to see the way in which these women are so strong and so fierce in the best sense of the word and that it's actually multi-generational. So you see it in the grandmothers and the mothers and the daughters and it's passed on and as the barriers have been lifted, I think you see it even more and I think of the lobster fishing industry, for example, where you have McKenna in the book reflecting or representing this strand of young women who are breaking those barriers in lobster fishing, who are not only helping their dads and their brothers, sterning because pretty much all the young women do in the lobster fishing families, but saying, you know what, I'm not just a helper, I can captain my own boat and I'm going to do it and I'm going to be just as strong and just as effective and do just as prosperous as my brothers and my dad and my uncles and there you have McKenna and other young women captaining from a young age and making a decision to make it their career and doing quite well at it. I think the other thing you've done with this book is sent a message to people in this state who have been assaulted with the notion there are two mains, you know, down here in southern Maine and the rest of Maine, that both mains are valuable, both mains are important to the whole and you know, it's something for those of us who don't live in Washington County just to celebrate, there are problems, there are problems here too, but there's something to be celebrated about our state when you look at that county. Absolutely, I think that's so well said and I think there is much to learn from each other and that there is this broader message around breaking down these divides and these senses of looking at each other and saying there are no commonalities, there are commonalities, good and bad. So from those shared commonalities and from a shared understanding, you know, comes a little bit less of that rancor that we all seem to be living in and unfortunately that too many seem to be sort of drowning in at this time. So I think I want to switch a little bit and say to the folks, this has been a great discussion, we don't talk about politics here and we always talk about politics on this show but we're not talking about politics but the author who has produced a terrific book and knows a lot about life in rural Maine, she from Brooklyn, she went to elite schools, Wellesley, Princeton, NYU, she worked in the Clinton White House, she was executive director of the New York Democratic Party, she did all these things but her focus in recent years has been this rural area of Maine which has, she's obviously entranced by it, you know, she likes it and she likes the people there. So we're talking about the divide and it's the subject that everybody in America now is kind of focused on, the divide and if you look at the political map of Maine you see a little blue streak running up the coast, the signal is elitist and then you see the rest of the state, rural part of the state, all red, the same is true in Washington County, it's all switched. In my young days many were Democrats up there and particularly in the mill towns and millenarket and Lincoln and places like that, no longer. I always think what did Donald Trump do for these people, they're poor, they got problems and what did he do for them, nothing. But why do they love Trump? Well I think this is reflective of something much broader, right, around the perspective that rural manors have, that rural people have and their connection to Trump and that is that they, many of them feel as though they have are perceived entirely negatively, that people look down on them from other places and Trump tapped into that. He tapped into that in two ways, one by connecting with them on on economic issues, on immigration, on trade, right, and making them feel more broadly that their point of view and that their experience was worth listening to. And then two, on turning around and saying those urban elites are not reflective of where we need to be as a country, right. So he tapped into both an emotional and an economic message that I think allowed rural voters to say, you know, somebody's listening to us, somebody's listening and that that went a long way. And so then when you fast forward to where we are today, I think that, you know, it's interesting, right, Harold, that we're coming off of the 2021 state elections. And we had this big story coming out of Virginia and New Jersey, to a certain extent, right, where rural voters rejected the Democratic Party candidates and by and large, right. And so particularly Virginia, that was just right. You had Terry McCullough going going down and Glenn Young emerging. And there's been a lot of I think on the Democratic Party side, a lot of hand wringing over that and a lot of sort of saying, well, what we need to communicate better with with our policies with rural voters. And, you know, if we only just start organizing earlier. And I would argue that it's so much deeper than that. And that the Democratic Party would do well to stop and take the time to listen. All I did was listen with an empathetic ear. And by listening, you will hear that the voices of rural Americans are not something that should be denigrated by and large. That they are something that should be taken into account when you think about the policies and the priorities that you're pursuing. They don't, they fear government overreach. They, lobster fishermen in particular are worried about over-regulation. They feel, you know, understandably that the trade policies have done them wrong. There are a lot of themes that I think economically and culturally are much deeper and more nuanced than urban elites give them credit for. And that if you sit down and really have some conversations, that there is a path, I think, for a better understanding. And that's really what they're looking for, a better understanding of where they're coming from. Bias is in preconceptions checked at the door. And what, I wonder, what Josie, the senior at Yale University, would have to say on that subject, because she's down there in New Haven with all, talk about elitists. Yes. And, but she is from, in the biggest, broadest meaning of the word, she is from Washington County. Yes. And it would be interesting to have her insight on that issue. Yeah, you know, it's really, it's interesting, as we've said, this is not a political book and is not intended to be a political book. And the young women across the board really didn't delve into politics with me very much. But there was a moment, and I write about it in the book, where I'm sitting with Josie in this trendy little bistro in New Haven. And I had gone down to visit her a number of times. And somehow we get on the conversation of politics. And she turns to me and she says, you know, I, I don't really know what to do with this. She said, I, I'm here and I'm on the more liberal end, I'm paraphrasing, but she essentially says, I'm on the more liberal end of the spectrum from where I come from, right, in Washington County. She says, I come here and she says, I meant immediately, maybe a moderate. And she says, you know, I'm a little bit perplexed because she said, I grew up with Republicans surrounded by Republicans. I know a lot of nice Republicans. She said, I just don't understand why we can't see each other for who we are. And I thought that was such a moment from this young person who's still, you know, so open-minded. And she's looking for a way to reconcile this one foot in Washington County and one foot in this elite place, Yale, and trying to find tolerance. And it's striking to hear that from this young person and to think, yeah, well why can't we find that? You, you're, you're from, grew up in Brooklyn and you know, people may say, gee, why is she, she has this empathetic ear and she understands these girls in this, this region. Isn't that interesting, that dichotomy? But really, it's not a dichotomy because I have to tell the folks this. We do share something in common. We're both descended from immigrants from small Greek villages. And, and the villages that her mother came from and, and, and descend, I mean, ancestors came from a very near Sparta, which is where my people are from. But you spent time in those villages. Yeah. Small towns. Yes. Very rural. Yeah. So rural life is not strange to you. No, not at all. And, and I, I love the connection that we have and, and that, that commonality of background. You know, I, my mom, as I've mentioned to you, she came from this small village Petrina in Greece when she was 14. And so she grew up in this rural place, the daughter of town baker, the village baker. And I grew up going back with my brother and sister and my cousins going back to that village. My dad's family from not too far away, also small places. And recognizing the value of that more rural life and then being raised in Brooklyn in a, with a sense of community, of the Greek community, very much tied to the church community, that had so many commonalities to what these young women grew up in. And I realized that the connections were there and that those very powerful connections, perhaps, were what made me feel so empathetic to them. And I, I think that there's real, there's real power in that. And I recall, and I write about this in the book a bit in the prologue, that I went to, I went with my family, my daughter, and my husband in 2019 while I was still writing the book. And we went to Petrina together. And I thought about the small village to the small village in southern Greece that my mom was from. And, you know, it's a quiet place now and not that many people live there very few year round. And we went back there and I just reflected on what it might be like for the young women, right, for the, the, the descendants of the young women of Downey's Washington County, right? Will, will those towns still be sustained in those many, many years ahead? And, and what does it mean to come from that type of place with everything that it brings with it? The other message in this book that I found very important, and we're all aware of the message, family, community, place, grounds us, and church, and church. Yes. And several of these girls, and Josie being one of them, were church goers. Their family was very, very much involved in the Baptist church there and so forth. Very important, isn't it, in terms of how people turn out? Absolutely. Faith is extremely important. It runs through many of these families. And it is tied to that rootedness, that theme of rootedness. And it's fascinating to see Josie because she maintains her strong faith when she goes to Yale. She continues to go, she finds a church in New Haven that she goes to. But much, much in the way that Audrey Barton sort of reflects this bridging, right, to the future, Josie reflects this bridging because she pushes against the organizational, the religion, in the sense of the church, not in the sense of her connection to God. I found that fascinating. We could go on for a second hour, but we're not permitted to do that. So I want to thank you very much. Thank you, Harold. So good to be with you. Thank you.