 Welcome back, of course, ready for a first major conversation right here on the breakfast and plus TV Africa, Chief Justice of Nigeria, or Luke Hayo de Arriola. He's been dragged, you know, on social media and he's received some fire on social media over his support for public's display of support for the Oyo State Governor, Shai Makin Day's membership of the G5 group of governors, also known as the Integrity Group. However, grieved governors are calling for the leadership change or leadership change in the People's Democratic Party, the PDP. To press home their demands, the governors pulled out of the presidential campaign of the People's Democratic Party, Nigeria's major opposition party, having been doing things on their own. The governors, I'm sure you know of them by now, number one, ESOBK Governor of River State, number two, Shai Makin Day Governor of Oyo State, number three, Somolotom Governor of Beno State, number four, Okizek Pazu, Governor of Abia State, and number five, Ifai Yagwai, Governor of Inugu State. Justice Arriola, his lordship was at Podhakot, in Podhakot for an event and he spoke at a banquet held in his honor by ESOBK in Podhakot on Thursday night, the Chief Justice of Nigeria, who hails from Oyo State himself, said his host, that is Governor Wike, was threatening to withdraw Makin Day's wife, who is from River State, expressing hope that Makin Day would emulate Wike to replicate the good works in his state. This is what is alleged, quote him now, I said, quote, that is why we should not be scared to have these men of the integrity group. That is why we should not be scared to have these men of the integrity group. And I am happy that my own governor is among them because he will try to imitate his friend and in law, that's Wike, because we came here to marry for my governor. He went on to say, quote, so, Governor Wike will always threaten that he will call back his wife, his sister, if my governor fails to play ball. That is why you see him following his excellence, that's Wike in integrity group, or G5, because my governor is afraid of his wife being recalled. Although the CJN made the remarks on an lighter note, some Nigerians have accused him of bias. Reacting to the comment of People's Democratic Party in a statement said, while it has the utmost respect for the judiciary and judicial officers, it will not tolerate any action or utterance by any judicial officer, let alone the CJN, that undermines the integrity of the judiciary. In the statement signed by the National Publicity Secretary of the Party, Debo, Olu, Olugunagwa, of course, the main opposition party argued that the CJN delved into its internal affairs, that's the PDP's internal affairs, with a comment that encouraged division in the party. They also went on to describe the CJN's action as unacceptable and inconsistent with his status as a head of the judicial arm of government. Now, I must also inform you that despite the preponderance of evidence, or the video evidence available, Nigeria Supreme Court has denied those comments were made by Ulukaya Dehariwala, Chief Justice of Nigeria on Shea Mckenday's membership of the integrity group. Now, a statement was released on Sunday by the apex court signed by the spokesperson of the apex court, Faisal Zakhande, and he denied that the CJN made such a remark. It is described as a misconception to score cheap goals in political campaign season. The statement read in part, Pamira suggested some part of that statement. As we all know, this is the era of aggressive and even unconventional politicking. So, there is nothing that will not be heard or seen at this critical time, especially between now and February 2023 when the general elections will be conducted. He went on to say, quote, we can't really pinpoint where such bare-faced falsehood is coming from. And suddenly, we don't also know at what point the CJN said he was happy that Governor Shea Mckenday of Ulukaya State was a member of the now Christian integrity group or G5 governance, end of quote. The question is, amongst others, should the statement of his lordship be a cause for concern? We are joining us this morning to discuss this. Makadebayo, who is a public affairs analyst. He's in Lagos. Mak, good morning to you. Are you concerned? And should we all be concerned by not just the statement, but by the movement and actions of the Chief Justice of Nigeria, who has been recently seen amongst politicians, first in all your state, where he was hosted to state reception and now in River State, where Governor Mckenday gave him a banquet? Well, thank you so much for having me, good morning, viewers. Well, let me start with the failed attempt to deny the reality of what really happened. It is quite funny peculiar for the CJN to attempt to reverse what he has done, because what has happened is very clear. It's on video I watched it on Channel TV, I watched it on other television stations. It said all these things that were quoted that he said. And coming out to deny that with all the, like you said, preponderance of video evidence is quite funny peculiar and a failed attempt and a ridiculous one of that to deny the reality of what happened. You see, the CJN has unwittingly set himself up to be described as a medicine interloper into the political affairs of another political party. It is quite unfortunate, and I think he made the mistake he should just own up and apologize. Because you see, in any future legal battles, cases that you get to the Supreme Court involving any of this so-called integrity group, the G5, the CJN must have to recuse himself from participating in any legal matter that involves any of this G5 governance. Because he has already shown himself and proven himself to be public, to be partisan. You went to reverse it and started to logize in a politician, the sitting governor, that you are sure, you have been told, you have been informed that we will be commissioning projects to the last day of his tenure. What kind of, who does that as a shield justice of the country, as a judge or magistrate? Just as an ordinary magistrate, you don't do that. You don't oblong with the politicians to the level of you logizing them, to the level of even cracking the kind of jokes that you cracked, you know, you logize the politicians and saying that you are happy your government is back up. But Makanebo, you made a very important point there. You saying the Chief Judge Justice of Nigeria will have to recuse himself from handling any matter that involves the PDP at its internal crisis, or is remotely or immediately connected or closely connected to that. But he doesn't need to sit on a matter. He is the Chief Justice of Nigeria. And it is his role to assign cases to judges. What I'm saying is that at any time that any case involved, that any of these chief has governance is involved, and you get to the Supreme Court, the Chief Justice of Nigeria cannot sit on that case. I mean, the error. But the point I'm making is he is the one who assigns or who determines which judge handles which case. I know. But it cannot be seen to sit on the panel of the Supreme Court of Nigeria. In any case, if of these guys, it cannot. It cannot be seen to be sitting in any panel of the Supreme Court. So if he does, some of us at the level of civil society are going to go to court to challenge him to recuse himself. He has said, like I said, he has willingly set himself up to be described as a medus of interloper into the internal crisis and affairs of the political party. So a judge at whatever level, not to talk of the Chief Justice of Nigeria, should not be seen or not be at that level and making such comments that are absolutely antithetical to the integrity of his office and the oath that he took to be impartial in all methods. You see, a Chief Justice should be seen like a citizen's wife. Who should be above any kind of reproach? It should be faultless. More or less, you understand? So he cannot be going about, you know, judging politicians and claiming to now be impartial. No, it's directly violates the oath of the office that he took as Chief Justice of Nigeria. He made a mistake. He should not just try to embellish anything. Nobody should come out and deny anything. He said all those things that he was couldn't get to upset. And it's quite, I personally disappointed. I'm sure he's supporting him because in charge of his caliber with the kind of the intellectual capacity that's carried on almost 30 years in the bench, with the kind of go and read his rulings, go and read his orders, go and read his judgment. You will see a brilliant, a brilliant brain. You will see a brain that is filled with incredible amada of intellectual capacity. Well, let's move away from his brilliance and look at the statement from the Supreme Court desacitating the Chief Justice of Nigeria, of course, from the political statement on the activities of the G5 Governors. Do you think that this would actually redeem his image? Just making a bad case was a kind of amateurish, rebuttal deniers that this is not something that was done underground. This is not something that was very important by somebody. This is not the third party information. This is a first party information. We all saw the video. We saw it on the news. Many of the news channels probably including us where it made those comments. They are very clear. So the idea of coming out to now, begin to hide behind one finger to say, he didn't say all those things, and claiming, and blaming all that on there, because of political system. No, it's quite ridiculous. That's why I said it is funny, peculiar. It is something that I consider very amateurish and are reasonable to comment. What is expected of a, they said who comes to justice must come with clean hands, and possibly clean hands. Well, you do not do that, and then come out to even make it worse by denying the obvious. This is very obvious. We have video evidence is very, is all over the place. Why would anybody come out to deny that? What is expected of the Chief Justice of Nigeria is to apologize to Nigeria. Before people begin to call for a resignation, and that is, if they get to that, that's why I said he cannot, in any good conscience, sit on any matter that involves this G-5 government. Like your colleague said, he is in a position to assign judges to cases that involve anybody, including this G-5 government. And even that can be challenged, because he has tilted the scale of justice in a way that is negative to the principles and ideology of justice itself, by what he did. He is Chief Justice of Nigeria. Like I said, let's just say a CDN. Any judge or magistrate, any judicial officer should not be seen to be obnumbed with, look, in this country, in our lifetime, we have seen a minister collect research, just research from an oil company. He was not only fired for that, he went to jail for collecting a gift of research. It wasn't standard advice, it was not a judge, it was not a justice, it was a proof. It was an academic. In the years before, it was appointed by General Buahari in 1984 to come ahead in the Petroleum Ministry. But for collecting a research, he went to jail for that. For collecting, so now you went to a banquet, you are fitted, and then you begin to say things, and that, you know, I don't want to be disrespected. No, but I'd like to ask, because we have a system where you have, you have the executive, the judiciary, and the legislative arm of government, and all of this to, you know, ensure that you don't have a certain arm of government being overly powerful, or check the excesses, however it is. So don't we have, or is the judiciary itself, doesn't it have a system to forge itself of all of this kind of behavior? And do you think that this is punishable, just like you have mentioned, referencing 1984? Absolutely, you know, there are rules, you know, there are rules back that guide the conduct of judicial officers in this country and all over the world, you know. So the principle of separation of powers and balance of powers that you mentioned operates in all democracies, you know, and in the presidential system, there's almost an absolute separation of powers. That of course, you know, the balance of powers. So you stay in your league. Government will care as we fighting politicians, governors, former governors, sitting governors, the speaker, although that's okay, across party line, that's okay, but you don't bring in the judiciary into this. You don't bring in the judiciary, and if as a sitting senior you are invited to come and do that, you might go, but you don't say those things that you are saying. You are just saying them, pressing the chief of governors calling them, saying they are intending to group, you are openly, a controversial group like that. You are openly offering your support, backing for them, saying that you are even happy that your own whole state governor is part of them. You understand? So even the joke he cracked, you know, all these things, you know, are beneath the chief justice of Nigeria. It shouldn't be done. It shouldn't be seen to be doing that. If it were to be a hundred years that did that, we'll be calling on the CGM by now to sanction that judge. So the body of back bench house do something about it. And I think the police of justice must do something about it. Yeah, Makadibai, you raised a very important point. Yeah, please. Yeah, you raised a very important point talking about the conduct of, you know, judicial, you know, officers or judges, let's just call them that. And lots are really well, highly respected, you know, and, you know, in their conduct, you know, it's hard to be a judge because you expect to really live a very strict life, almost, you know, a sedentary life, you know, an isolated life in a way. I've been around these judges, you know, at one point in time because of my work, up to as in person now. And it's clear that they, once you get to that line, you're almost like a, when you agree with this school of thought, you're almost like a Catholic priest where you can't do everything. You know, you can't do everything. So what are your thoughts on the way judges, you know, conduct themselves now as compared to the judges you knew, maybe in the 80s, for instance. Let's just stick at that, in the 80s, for instance. I've had some, I've seen some judges attend functions and they don't stay till the end, you know, because they don't want to be seen to be at parties, at celebratory events, where there's a chance of being in the same place with maybe people in the political class or business community, they don't want to be seen there. So they come for those events. I've seen it personally a number of times. They come for those events and then they leave, you know, immediately just say a word and then they leave. You know, I mean, what do you say about this? Because the governor was, the CJN was hosted to a reception by his governor, you know, your state, where he eulogized him. That's a state reception. Wike was there as well. Wike had some good things to say about him. And then at this particular one, Wike did a commissioning of the mario deli justice, mario deli her lordship or his lord, rather, his lordship justice, mario deli's judicial institute. And you know, the speeches by Wike are usually politically laced. So the chief judge of the justice had to sit down through those speeches of how Artiku had not done this and done that and, you know, then he gave a speech and the governor held his hand. He held his hand and walked him into the judicial institute, show him around. You know, on live or national TV, he held his hand like this, you know. So should judicial officers, should judges stay away from these events and how we compare the conduct these days to what, obtained years ago, decades ago? When we were growing in the 70s and the 80s, and by the time I got to the university around 1989, you know, oftentimes justice were hard. They are never seen in public. They are not everywhere, you understand? Like I told you at the beginning, they are supposed to be like sisters, why? That above every report, you understand? They are supposed to always live a perfectly quiet life. A perfectly quiet life. You don't see them, they're living around with politicians of going to party. Like you said, if they go to parties that, you know, to friends, maybe a friend's daughter is wedded or something like that or funeral that is family or the rest of that. You don't see them even, but today you see judges dancing and even spending money. You know, hey, this is what I'm talking about. I haven't seen that. Okay, well, you see, like if I, unfortunately I'm not a liberty to say, but if you knew, if go and do your investigative journalism and discover the kind of what I'm called on holy alliance between Governor Mickey and justice, maybe you'll be retired. It's something that is a column discussed on national TV, but you see, he has a way with judges. I give that to him, Governor Mickey. He has a way with judges. You know, if you know the story of how 74 political parties were registered during the pendency of a case in court and then the Supreme Court of Nigeria went ahead, rather than protect the integrity of the court, went ahead to uphold that judgment that Inek was right in the registered political parties during the pendency of the case in court. Why the case is in court? Set us course remain. Inek was taken to court by 42 political parties that went to the register house and the case was in court two months later. And why the case was in court and the registered political parties. And Bill Court did justice to that case and said that Inek had no right to take that action while it was already in court. He got to Supreme Court and what did the Supreme Court do? The Supreme Court upheld the judgment of the lower court, saying that Inek was right in the registered political parties. That's one aspect. All of us know what happened with the emo election case. How the current governor in mind and how the Supreme Court, that's why they called it, they opened up this on the man, all the tomorrow in emo state as Supreme Court judge. So many judgements and orders and rulings of the Supreme Court lately has come under serious spotlight or public scrutiny and many of it are totally disfavorable to the Nigerians. And for now, in short, it's up on injury for the seniority of Nigeria to be placing politicians and helping with them going to banquet and rest of that. It didn't have to go. And if we have to go, it didn't have to say those things that he said. Nobody, you are invited for a banquet fan but you didn't have to say all those things. You just stand up and pray and sit down and go like you said. I just thought, I don't know if you should stop saying that it is so nice, it's so brilliant, it's so good, it's so excellent for our democracy to have a group like this. When you know, they are a controversial group and their party is not happy with them. And then you are saying that. Now imagine, imagine, just because imagine that one of the government is dismissed from the party and then it goes to court. I court, because it moves to court, and people, because now I'm there to supreme court, how do you expect justice to be done? How do you expect this case of justice to be balanced? Mac Adebayo, quickly as we course this conversation down, just as a follow up, Adebayo, just quickly. I'd like to ask you, does the judiciary not have a system of mechanism to forge itself of all of this? Because there's a popular saying that a corrupt judiciary would definitely lead to a society that's corrupt. You see, a society can survive if you have a 40 executive. A society can progress if you have a 40 legislative. But a society will self-destruct if you have a 40 judiciary. That is how important a judiciary is. You know, it is called the last hope of the common man. You know, it is the, it is the balancing factor of every society. Where it is seen to be corrupt, where it is seen to be inefficient, where it is seen to be biased, that society will self-destruct. So does the judiciary not have a system to forge itself of all of this? It has to be activated now, and it should just at least in equality, at least minimally in equality. Well, unfortunately, he was about to, you know, let that drop, but we probably have been disconnected by it. And that's what we're talking about. Let's see how all of this happens for us in 2023, as regards, you know, the transmission of our results with all of the services that we get from telecommunication, you know, companies. Mark Adebayo, if you can hear me, that's the much we can take at this point in time. We look forward to sharing more of your thoughts on the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll take a break in when we return. Kofi, I'm sure. Yes, indeed, we'll look at what the government's suspending conditional cash transfer program shake and shove it to our joints in a few minutes. Stay with us.