 Thank you. Good afternoon and welcome everyone to the virtual conference by Entrepreneur India under our resilience period. Here we talk to business leaders who are striving to find out ways to fight the COVID pandemic. I am Saurav Kumar, Editor Special Projects Entrepreneur India, your host and moderator for the session. The COVID-19 crisis has wrecked all economies across the globe. The most advanced nations and businesses have been not being spared. Well, I'm sure that the world collectively will find a solution sooner or later to get back to normal, maybe with the adjusted new normal. Nevertheless, startups and businesses will need to use this period of dormancy to rethink and rebuild to come out stronger and be equipped to deal with future scenarios. So in this series, we talk about ways in which they can do it. Before we start first, let me just lay down the house rules for the day for our attendees. The panel discussion will go on for 30 minutes. This will be followed by a Q&A session for the next 15 minutes. If you have any questions during the course of the discussion, you can post them through the Q&A option. Our Facebook audience and other social media audience can post their questions in the comment section. We'll take up those questions post the panel discussion. We would also like to request our attendees to keep the questions within the scope of the discussion here. Let me now introduce and welcome our guests for the day, Dr. Gero Decker, co-founder and CEO of Business Transformation Signaview. Welcome, Gero. Hey, welcome. Great to be here. Thank you. So just to introduce, Signaview is a business transformation solutions provider that enables companies to understand, improve, and ultimately transform their business processes. Based in Berlin, Signaview has operations in various parts of the world and counts the likes of DHL, Puma, Deloitte, SAP and many more as its clients. So, Gero, to start with for the benefit of our audience, if you can just briefly take us through what Signaview does and then we will continue our discussion. Yeah, great. Yeah, so Signaview, we are a software provider. We built business process management software that is being used by midsize and large organizations. What the software helps to do is understand how processes, how business operations work today through methods like process mining and others and it helps you shape basically the future of operations, designing to be state of how you want to work tomorrow, change your customer journeys and so on and so forth and bring that to action. So, it serves the whole chain of understanding and proving and transforming business processes in midsize and large organizations. Okay, all right. So just to first to start with, when this entire COVID-19 situation started to take shape across the world in various countries, so I'm sure that when it started there, so you would have taken some basic steps or the first things that you would have done to tackle this problem and the opportunities that you saw that came out of this situation if you can share with us. Yeah, sure. Thanks for asking. So, this is actually our second crisis that we're going through. So, our company is already in the market for quite a number of years. We started in late 2008, early 2009, so when the company was founded basically during the financial crisis and but at the time we didn't recognize the crisis as a crisis because our company was barely existing, we didn't have a client base, but we were just surprised or startled by the fact that there was a lot of interest in what we were doing but not many people buying, right? We thought this is just due to product maturity or not having the right marketing message out there, but in retrospect it was due to the crisis and nobody spending money. So, at the time we weren't really aware of the things that were happening and we could use the time really for brand building, getting a name out there, sharing our message, getting people excited and interested. So, when things started to pick back up in the second half of 2009, 2010, we were fully there also with a good offering that we were able to shape with the help of those people interested but not ready to buy it. So, now with COVID-19 the situation is vastly different. So, we went into end of February, right? The world seemed in order. There was COVID-19 happening in China. We don't have a significant presence in China. We have a handful of customers over there and the rest of the world seemed unaffected, right? It seemed to be something contained and managed within China and only later it appeared that it surfaces on the global scheme. So, we were in full expansion mode at the time. We had 150 open positions that we wanted to fill in the February. So, we were in heavy recruiting mode. We were expanding on all fronts and then suddenly COVID-19 arrives in all of the major markets that were super important for us. First, Western Europe with Germany, France being hit pretty hard by COVID-19. UK followed soon after and then with a little bit of a time lag of two to three weeks, the US followed sweet and it really was heavily impacted. New York and epicenter of where many of our customers are. A lot of financial services, companies and others based in New York heavily hit by COVID-19. So, suddenly you move from a heavy expansion mode to a crisis management mode, right? So, the first steps that we did was first, there's all of this uncertainty. How is the crisis going to impact you, right? We knew for sure that new business sales would probably suffer big time from the crisis. People not spending now but waiting until the worst is over or freezing budgets. You can't really tell how many of your customers are going to go bankrupt or how many of them are going to slash their budgets and you're part of that savings initiative. So, the first thing that we did was really the most immediate cost containment measures that we could put in place. So, the first thing that we did was a hiring freeze. So, you know, not hiring anybody anymore for a certain period of time. And then we really took the time, it took us two or three weeks to try to sift through the noise, read all of the signals, talk to a lot of customers to get an understanding of what's the scenario going to be. Right? Who are the industry verticals hit the hardest? Who is still spending? Who is still bullish about the future? Who is in panic mode? To have a rough understanding of where we could, you know, what it would mean for us from a revenue perspective. We completely revised our budget for the year, our business plan. So, from a very high growth mode, we would readjust and say, you know, what is a more realistic target for this year? Will we have less revenue at the end of the year, the same or grow? And then based on that, you know, you look at your business and you really have to make a tough decision to say what is really must have, what are the things that you need? And where are the things that you might have that aren't more nice to have, that you might have, you know, taken on board as a company, but that are really not, you know, essential? So we managed through that. And yeah, and basically from a business planning point of view, put the company on a new trajectory to get through 2020 and then also 2021. So was it also a hard decision to be taken during this period? I mean, if they were so, if you can just let us know that what was the bashment for those decisions? I mean, the hardest, the toughest part always is, are two things. One is for sure, every time it comes to people, right? So hiring people is very easy. Letting people go is very hard, right? So people are there for a reason. So this is the step that you want to avoid at all costs because it has taken you so much time to get good people on board. It has taken you so much time to onboard them. They are there for a reason. They're part of the family, they're part of the company. So any step that you can avoid there, you know, is important. So when it's about saving costs, it must be for operational expenses, the things where you cut first. And also on the labor cost side, there are certain creative solutions that you can find. So for example, something that we did with our team that was accepted pretty well actually, most people participated was a salary to shares conversion program. So we offered people at a very favorable price, a very favorable valuation just to forego a part of their salary for the next 12 months and in return become a shareholder in the company. So this was one of the more creative solutions, I would say, to avoid having to cut deeply into the employee base, but at the same time having certain cost savings effects that help you navigate safely through the crisis. And then the other tough decision is making choices between the here and now and building and investing for the future. So in software, product development is a classic. So the product development that you do doesn't help you this quarter or next quarter most likely, but it helps you next year or the year after. So whatever you do on product development is an investment into the future. And so juggling that between optimizing for short term outcomes, the things that help you navigate through the crisis safely versus betting on a good rebound in six months, nine months, 12 months from now, whenever it happens and be prepared for that. Right. So this is the second big, big choice to make. Okay. So I just said that in a desperate of situations, people find opportunities and those who see those opportunities, so when this started, did you see some opportunities coming your way? So did you think that's okay fine here in this situation, but this is how I'm going to utilize the situation to be a better self tomorrow? Was it an instant success? Yeah. Well, so one, how we work internally, obviously is a big one, but then also the product and the value proposition to the market is the same. So how we work internally. So traditionally, we always had a strong presence in Berlin as our headquarters. So more than two thirds of our employees have always been located in Berlin, Germany. So, and there was a strong tradition around being in the office to work, right? So with only, only few people and only a certain limited amount of time, people would work from home when being located in Berlin. This was already very different in our international location. So we are present in 15 countries. So the employees in 15 different countries. Internationally, they were much smaller teams in the different countries. They were part of a global network working remotely most of the time anyways. So in the past, we had all of these initiatives of exploring remote work and how should we best do it and will productivity suffer or what are the implications, right? We did all of this thinking about it and suddenly you're forced to do it and you have to do it from one day to the other, right? And you can barely ship, you know, additional webcams or, you know, get additional equipment. That's the only thing that you can do or allow people to grab, you know, the chair I have here, I grabbed from the office and took it home with me on the tube, right? So this is the, you know, some small things that you can do. But suddenly you're forced to work from home from day one. So this was, this happened pretty smoothly for us and I must say it has a lot of advantages, especially working with the international teams. Now it doesn't matter anymore whether a colleague is down the street or whether a colleague is on a different continent, right? It only takes sharing a zoom link to get together and work together, right? The time zone stay, that doesn't change through COVID-19. But other than that, location doesn't seem to matter these days anymore. So this is great. And this is something that we will also keep going forward as a company. From a product or value proposition point of view, you also try to imagine what is the new world going to look like, right? And for us, helping companies manage their processes and operations, there are many changes that companies go through these days and that help them prepare for the future. So one big thing out there is obviously the move to more digital and having to change your operations, your processes to be able to leverage technology more, right? But also the change in demands that your customers might have tomorrow and readjusting your customer experience to that. So whatever you can do, this was one of the takeaways for us. Whatever we can do to help make that transition to digital and this massive shift in customer experiences and adjusting your company to that, whatever products we can offer around these two themes helps us big time with the clients today already and going into the future. All right. Before we go to the next question, I'll again request our attendees and audience on our social media platforms to keep their questions coming. We'll take them post our discussion. It's over. So Giro, to come back to you, business transformation, process management, these are things which have suddenly become the need of the R and people now are starting to realize its value. So first, if you can make us understand that how does it really help a business to tackle these kind of situations? Second, is it only for the large corporations who have large budgets and all who can do this or smaller companies also who have type of budgets who can also, can they also invite these? So just taking a step back and how are companies reacting these days or what are they going through? They typically go through four stages. So stage number one, react in response to the immediate face of the crisis, right? Moving to home office these types of things. Reconfiguring a supply chain that is completely broken. So the second one that people have gone through or are still going through is saving costs. The third one is building operational resiliency and becoming more, you know, becoming stronger from an operational perspective also going into the future. And the fourth one is to renew and reinvent for the new normal, right? So drastically change the products, the offerings, the experience that you're offering to the market. So if you go through all of these four, then process management and the products that we offer, you know, help in different shapes and forms in these different phases. The immediate reaction or response, those companies who had already our software in place or who were already quite mature around process. For them, it was quite easy to go through and say this process has affected. These are the tasks that we need to change now. This is what's not working anymore. We need to work around for that and so on and so forth, right? So they could act very quickly. If you hadn't done that, it was just running around like a chicken without a head and trying to, you know, trying to make the best of this situation. Cost saving, how much can we help? A little bit because it's about making smart choices, right? What are the things that you want to keep? What are the things that you can really let go without having too much long-term harm for the company? Where process management and the stuff that we do and help support really helps us this phase three and phase four, operational resiliency. So in this crisis, many people realize that they have no clue how they operate, right? It was like, here's a goal, here's a set of smart people, let them run, right? And this might work in an environment that is very stable, where you can make certain assumptions about things where you sit together in an office and can just, you know, brain someone how to do it and you do it, right? So in this new world, you need to be a lot more smart about how you work, how you chop up the different responsibilities that you have to flesh out a lot more. What do we expect from each other? Where do we hand over stuff? Where are we really intacting? How do we make it work? Where are we using technology? Where don't we do it? So this is where, you know, knowing how you operate and then making deliberate choices about what you need to change and what you need to keep or what do you want to build in also for future flexibility to be able to react to those types of things that happen now in the sense of business continuity and those types of questions. So this is where process management excels, right? And we see that we frequently check in with Gartner, for instance, and what companies are looking for and operational excellence is one of the top research terms on Gartner because for the first time people say, oh, wait a minute, we haven't understood our operations and they're completely broken now, right? And we need to fix it. And the fourth piece reinventing and renewing is very much around centering around the customer and what they expect and what they expect now versus what they had expected in the past. And then building your operational model from that. Are these things only something for very large companies? Well, the larger you are, the higher the volumes you have, the more you can standardize as well and the easier you can also leverage technology to automate a lot of the things that you're doing and thereby bringing efficiency and speed to things as well. But you have this inherent complexity that you need to manage through. For smaller businesses, well, the number one challenge is revisit your business model, right? What's the value proposition that you're bringing to market? What are the customer segments that you can still reach or that you will be able to reach? What are the fundamental shifts that you have in the future, right? So a lot of smaller companies are really questioning themselves and the model and the value proposition that they have today. And for obvious reasons and rightly so, right? Does process management help to go through? If you're a company with three or four or five employees, honestly, no, right? Because that level of awareness, that level of structure actually doesn't help you when you're a company with five employees. If you're a company with 50 employees, of course it does, right? If you're 200 employees, for sure. Funny story, when one of our early customers in the United States was a small company, they had 200 employees and were just going, you know, expanding heavily. So they needed to find a way how to bring that greatness that they had in themselves to the customer on a repeated basis. And that customer went by the name of Airbnb, right? So one of the success stories in startup land now being hit very hard in COVID times, but for many years, the poster child of growth. So they started investing heavily and building that capability around process management when they were 200 people. And it served them super well to be able to grow to 500, a thousand, several thousand people because they could take the greatness that they had delivering that great community experience to the customers, but doing that at scale, doing that with, you know, millions of bookings, right? So for them, it came at the right time. And if they had done it later, it would have been much more painful to navigate through the scale and the growth that they were going through. Okay. So, you know, as you say, and as I can understand, I believe that, you know, a lot of these smaller companies, as I was mentioned to you earlier also, in these kind of situations, if they have their processes in the correct, you know, the processes are correct, and they are under some kind of automation or something. So it would be easier for them to keep their brand intact in these kind of situations. Would you believe that? Yes. So, but it also depends on how big is your business already. So if you have an existing install base, an existing customer base, this is a great time to be as close to them as you've never been before, right? And, you know, we see a lot of companies shifting from being, you know, 80% focus on new customers versus being focused 80% on their existing install base and existing user base and make them super happy and do the best they can for them. Because you build, in these times, you build loyalty. And it's so much easier to upsell and expand with existing customer base these days than it is to sign on new, right? So, from that perspective, in, you know, having a customer base, having user bases in these days, getting heard out there, let's talk about marketing for a little bit, right? So, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, marketing happened a lot offline, right? You would go vans or other things, classic advertising that you might do. There was the big shift to digital already, but especially in B2B, it was always a mix, like a 50-50 mix or slightly different. Even, you know, in February, January this year, between, you know, physical or offline and digital. The offline channel is completely gone now, right? It doesn't happen anymore so it's 100% digital. And smaller nimble startups who are digital natives might be tuned for that much better than the incumbents, right? The incumbents struggle much more. But everybody is going for digital these days, right? It has been super crowded to be heard. There's so much noise. So, what you see these days is that while you might have a lot more eyeballs on digital, the conversion rates might be not anywhere close to what you were used to from digital channels, right? Because there's just so much noise that you need to cut through. So, you know, not easy. Okay, all right. So, you know, have you seen a spurt in adoption of your products or your offering this period of time where people have seen that these could be things that are required or was it that the piece has been normalized usually? So, we've seen pretty much stable usage of our products, but which means that those people who are still able to use it, use it much more and then those people, we had a lot of industry verticals that we're serving where people were simply sent to mandatory vacations, right? So, if you take the automotive industry, for instance, you might have heard that many or most of the automotive suppliers or, you know, the automotive companies, they actually stop the assembly lines, they stop production for some time, right? So, this has a huge impact on the companies behind them where you send entire workforce. There's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people home not doing anything for a month or even longer, right? So, in these types of, and in all of the associated areas with that, these people obviously don't work at that time, right? So, this is where we've seen at the time, but other people who were able to work, they actually increase the usage. Why? For the obvious reasons what I've said earlier, continuity planning, right? Scrammeling, understanding what they need to change, what they need to do or already start building for the future and thinking about, you know, what are the things that we always wanted to change? And, you know, we knew we had to change, but we were just so busy doing other things. And now finally, we have, you know, the platform is, or the reason is compelling enough to really do it now. Okay. So, you know, I've also seen that your company works in terms of customer experience. So, how does that really relate to operational excellence when it comes to it? Yeah. It's, if you look, if you look a couple of years back, where process management or operations management came from was mostly around, you know, having stable operations, saving costs, standardizing, meeting compliance, those types of things. But there were a lot of companies who were doing these regular, you know, improvement cycles every year, continuous improvement every year, 5% better, another 4%, another 7% better. But then suddenly, they wake up and their company and their offering has become irrelevant, right? Because the customer just chose to go elsewhere, right? There was this great example by a customer of ours, a telco company in Asia, and they were going through this continuous improvement mindset, right? And for example, if you were a B2B customer and you ordered a DSL or broadband connectivity with them, it would take them 28 days just to produce a quote to you, right? 28 days. It's, it's, it's a long, very long time. So with their continuous improvement mindset, they would bring it down from 28 days to 26. So they would bring it down from 26 to 25, and then to 23. But, you know, suddenly they woke up and they had become irrelevant in the market because there were these players out there who could give you that quote the same day, right? So not 5%, 10%, 15% better, but, you know, 10 times or 50 times better than what you do today, or doing something vastly different. So this is what, what a lot of people wake up to these days also with players like Amazon and many others who just show you that you can do things vastly better and vastly, you know, vastly more attractive way to the customer. So, you know, doesn't, it might not even matter that you do things 5% or 10% better if you've missed the mark of what is really important to the customer. So customer experience, things like design thinking and so on, they have been super, have become super important the last five years or so. But for a long time it happened in complete isolation. Here you had your innovation teams, they were building a cool app, or they were having all of these creative ideas. And then you had those people who were running the business, right? With a 20,000 employees and all the complexity behind the curtain and managing that. But these two completely separate. So what we've observed in the last three years is then bringing great customer experience to the customer means you have to really do it end to end in the sense of that. It needs to translate into everything that you do as a company. It needs to translate into the processes. It needs to translate into the mindset of the people to always know what is the experience that you're currently optimizing for? What is the moment of truth that you're paying in for with your customers? What is the sentiment with the customer that you're currently driving? What is the behavior that you want to achieve with the customer to go forward and so on and so forth? So being a process management vendor traditionally, we have seen that there's a convergence between customer experience and operational excellence. And it has become the defining factor. Customer experience is the new north stuff. It is not cost, it is not standardization. It is delivering something great on a repeatable basis to the customer. So definitely with more competition coming in, customer experience is something getting better. I go there. But do you think in this process, a lot of startups give up on something called unit economics. And then it becomes tougher for them going ahead. Do you think where is that sweet spot? How does the company find that sweet spot between this investing in customer experience and also taking care of their unique economics? We have seen across the world companies putting in a lot of money, but then they might end, they have to pull down the road. So what do we do? What does that prove to be? Yeah. I mean, unit economics, it's funny. Some people think this is God given, if you will, right? And no matter how much you scale, this will always be the same. This might be true for some areas where you have electricity costs to other things, where you simply can't negotiate around it and can't get around it. In other areas, unit economics are driven by many different influencing factors, right? It's how much of a premium can you command to justify certain things, for instance, right? Or how much of a repeat behavior do you have with a customer, which translates into a certain factor? People often come to me with a question to say, yeah, I have the choice between great customer experience and cost. What should I go for? And the experience that we made with companies is that it's very surprising, but if you shoot for great customer experience, you oftentimes yield a cost optimization and an efficiency optimization at the same time. It seems illogical at first sight, but we've seen it working time and time again, because discovering what the customer needs oftentimes brings with it a higher degree of automation, for instance, because customers want faster service, for instance, right away. So the moment you're able to deliver that, guess what? And you do that at scale, guess what? The cost has come down significantly. So if you feel that you're in an either or choice, always go for customer experience, because the customer experience is what drives your loyalty of customers and also organic revenue growth, right? And that will trump everything in the long run. Cost to serve, yes, is an important piece. So if you feel that you have opportunity to do something cheaper, faster, better, without impacting the customer experience, go for it. Slice out 50% of that cost, but always use the customer experience at your reference point to say, these 50% costs or this 10% cost that we're saving here, how much does it really impact the customer or how much doesn't it? Without that reference point, everything becomes a cost optimization standpoint and you feel you can, unit economics is everything. Guess what? Unit economics don't matter if you don't have any customers. So maybe if you improve your customer experience, they will be ready to pay you more in the future, maybe for your services, maybe that could be one of them. So going back to our previous question and connecting it to, so in customer experience and operational operational experience, where does the entire piece of data and artificial intelligence come in? How does that play a role? How do you put that into practice? So the great thing, let's start with customer experience. What is different now than previously is that you're able, through all of these digital touch points that you have and additional data sources that you might be able to tap into, you know so much more about your customer and their preferences, their behavior, that you can be much closer. It can feel very, very intimate. You can do something really, really close to your customers now without having to physically be in contact with your customer. So this is one where the use of data gives you a lot more insights about what your customers want. If you don't have enough data points in there, make it measurable somehow. There are the good old surveys that you can inject, put in gamification or whatever have you, just to get additional sentiment from your customers. Use natural language processing to sift through all of the touch points that you have with customers through phone or email or so on, and make the unstructured data structured in a way or analyzable so that you can understand these things at scale. Because if you look at individual interactions, they might not give you the full picture. If you see the whole volume and you're able to analyze, that gives you a ton of information. And the same thing goes for operational excellence. In the past, people would go about, you know, doing the workshops, asking a lot of people for their input and their ideas how to improve things. This is still very, very important. And this is honestly still the most efficient way to do it for many scenarios. But if you have the data available in every system, holds tons of that data, the moment you have it available in enough quantities, you can leverage that to find things that you might not have been looking for initially. For instance, we had a container ship operator and they were complaining about super inefficient supply and management processes by asking people, they wouldn't find why that is the case, why they spent so much money, so many people doing this, so many escalations they had to work for. In the end, they looked at the data they analyzed and they found that people were doing a workaround all the time because the data in a certain inventory catalog was so bad that people stopped trusting it and used all kinds of manual work around it to do it. This was something that was only being uncovered through a data-driven analytic exercise which would have gone undiscovered before. They were able to speed up the thing by factor 5, they were able to reduce costs by factor 2 to 3 by doing these steps. That's why if you look at operational excellence, we call it there's a combination of data-driven so leveraging all of the data that you have to uncover those things, but also human-centered because all of the creativity, the future state design won't be done by machines, but it's always a human with that creativity to come up with great solutions of how to do things better and also to mobilize people to implement that change and change the behavior. So before I go ahead with my other questions, I'll take some of the ones that have come to us. So there's this question we have got. Are you planning to introduce new low cost products or more changes to existing products so as to make them more affordable right now for smaller businesses? So I mean this is the beauty of the cloud anyways, right? So when we started 11 years ago with the company, we built for the cloud, we built multi-tenant so that you can start using the software at the click of a button. The deployment takes 10 seconds and you have a new workspace for a new customer, right? So these are the underpinning talking about unit economics and cost of service, you know, with scalable infrastructure, not having to give every customer, you know, a virtual machine but rather, you know, a fraction of a virtual machine that all helps, right, to do that. Having said that, also, you know, as an advice to startups out there, the often a cost driver is not so much how much, you know, is not the cost to operate in the end. But the question is what kind of go-to-market model and sales model can you efficiently run to make that happen, right? Just because you introduce a cheaper option on the website that you can, you know, use with your credit card doesn't mean that people come in, you know, in the thousands to use it, right? So you really need to have a fine balance between the go-to-market model, the marketing and sales machine that you have and being able to cater for that and not cannibalize what you do. So back to your question, right now we have a focus on mid-size and large corporations, right? And there is a certain spend ban that they operate in and this is what we optimize for as a company from a go-to-market model. For smaller organizations, we have certain educational use, our software is for free, but also for, you know, NGOs, for instance, or in COVID times for everybody who's fighting the pandemic actively, like in terms of, you know, health institutions and so on and so forth, we have given away our software completely for free, right? Because it's a group of people that we normally wouldn't target with our, with our go-to-market channel. But, you know, serving a complete ban from a one-man shop all the way to a one million employees shop, you know, there are very few companies in the world who make it work from a go-to-market model to serve all of them. So it's typically a choice whether you're a more small business software with low, you know, with no touch, all automated, everything's community driven, or you have more of a, you know, mid-market and large-cap strategy where it's a lot more about catering for the individual needs of the customer, doing, you know, personalized proof of value, proof of concept type initiatives and so on, right? Something that you can't do if you give away your software for, let's say a thousand dollars per year. But I would believe that, you know, even if the number of employees is lesser, but the nature of business includes a lot of data or maybe a lot of, you know, customer base, I think for them, there could be solutions that could come out and if the need is high enough, our smallest customer has 20, 23 employees. They're so heavily regulated that they need to do something, that they need to prove, they need to do stuff that normally only much larger companies will do, right? So it's part of their license to operate, if you will, their ticket to play to use software that otherwise only larger organizations use. But honestly, when we build our products, we typically say it's designed for organizations with at least 500 employees. This is where you have the definite complexity, the definite need and kind of the guaranteed ROI to justify, not only spend for software, but also the time that you invest doing it and making it useful. We have a question from Pawan Kalyan, he says that, can we have his audio please, let's see if he has a question. Pawan, I don't think he can speak. Anyway, so we'll just move on to our next question that we have, that we have got. So, you know, so that's being a large part of your workforce works on product development. Would it potentially mean that you're pushing ahead, pushing hard on remote working, even after things get better? Yes, that's something because we've seen a lot of companies in India also, a lot of famous companies, blue chip companies have said permanently through the work of their employees and now work from home, no matter what. And you hear an announcement from all kinds of companies, Facebook, Google, others who go for much more remote work going forward. I think it's just, it's not a particularity about us as a company, I think that's the new normal for software, software companies like ours. It's very interesting, if you look into our company and organization, everybody in or people in product development, they really appreciate the flexibility and the ability to work from home now. Versus in many of the go to market teams, people say, oh, I can't wait to get back to meeting the, you know, the colleagues in the office, having a beer together. You know, it's all about, you know, I love this because it's, because of the social environment, right? So, you know, you have different flavors. So what might happen in the future is that you have, that you work more from home, but that you have, you know, specific socialization forms, right? Outside of getting the job done, where you still need people physically on a, I don't know, once a week basis or whatever have you, just to have that spirit, that, you know, that feel that social cohesion as well as a team. I think that's still, I think that's still important. And going 100% remote, not seeing each other for six months. For me, it's still hard to imagine how that would work for the vast majority of software companies. Very few in the past have done it. And so I think it's going to be a mix, but we will see a lot more remote work going forward for sure. Okay. Okay. And I'm sure that, you know, we all would miss, you know, the water cooler moments and, you know, the small breaks or catch up for lunch, you know, that's kind of the place where you, you know, the team building that happens. So I see that Bowen has posted his question. So I just read it out to you. How does a small company manage its economic decline after the crisis end? I mean, I think more, more what he wants to know is that, of course, that, you know, right now, revenues are zero for a lot of companies. Possibly these companies want to see a very bad decline. I mean, how do they quickly get back on track or maybe quickly get back to their peak? That's what the question was if you want one. Now specifically in COVID times, I mean, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it, the, the, the, the short answer is really it depends, right? It depends on, on what you do. So I think as, as B2B, as B2B providers, it's, it's, it's much easier because companies need continuity, right? Everybody knows that the crisis is over at some point and you need to prepare for that, right? It's not the end of the world. People know that with B2C is much harder because it, your behavior might be changed completely. Right? If you're not going out anymore, if you're not leaving your house, well, you simply don't do many of the things that you used to do, right? So how do you get that back up? Well, you can't force people to, to, you know, change their behavior to how they did it before. Right? So, so that's, that's really a tough call. And it might, you know, sometimes it might be waiting for things to normalize again. Sometimes it might be, you know, reinventing how you deliver that service. So for example, there was one B2C company here in Berlin that changed their business model or their delivery model within a matter of a week or two. It's a company called Art Night. What they do is you sign up and you basically meet in the evening to paint pictures together. It's like a social thing and it's a little bit like paint by the numbers, but in groups of 20, 30 people, right? It's, it's good fun. So they were, they were doing well, but suddenly people were not allowed to do that anymore, right? Because of the lockdown. So, and they moved it within a matter of one or two weeks to virtual sessions like that. So they would send the kit, the kits, you know, including the colors and the palette and everything to people's home. They would, you know, they would set up Zoom and, you know, try out different things. They would even, you know, send you a sample of a drink or whatever, right? To go with it. So make it completely, you know, replicated in your home and then you would have, you know, 20 people dialing in and meeting through software like this and others to still have kind of the experience. So did the revenue drop? Yes, for sure, right? But did it go to zero? No, it didn't. They could recover quite a bit of it through this new offering because people, you know, you know, other than doing this, they might have to watch Netflix the whole day, right? And, and people long for doing other things, right? So, so this is just a small example of a company having shifted their, their B2C model pretty, pretty swiftly and quite successfully. So I believe, you know, adapting to the new normal and adapting to the new situations is the key here, how quickly you respond and adapt your offerings to the new, you know, whatever situation. So before I let you go, you know, a parting thought and a question for you is that you have seen, you said that your company was born during a crisis and now you're again doing one. And I'm sure that this has given you enough, enough experience to, you know, to give, to tell our viewers and our audience that, you know, it's never, it's not going to die, it's going to be interesting to hire a lady. So what would be your parting advice to them? Well, so the one guiding thought is really, there's always light at the end of a tunnel, right? These prices, they, they might seem super hard when they occur and it seems like the world is falling on top of you. And it's very tough to make those decisions and, and set yourself up for success again. And it might seem impossible, incredibly hard to do that. But the good news is things, things rebound. And well, it might look slightly different, but, but the world rebound. So, you know, never, never lose your optimism, right? Never stop believing that the things are going to change to the better. Surviving, yes, for sure, is, is, is, you know, priority number one. But then also, you know, every piece of energy that you have left, prepare for, for the rebound that is about to come. Thank you so much. It was wonderful to have you here with us. And I'm sure that, you know, the audience would realize and understand that, you know, sticking around and just staying about the water right now and adapting to changes quickly. And, you know, be prepared for such situations in the future with having your processes connect with your, you know, strategies connect with something that would be required. So thank you again so much. And thank you for, thank you to our audience. Also, we wish to see you again on our, on this team. Great. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.