 Welcome back to ThinkTech. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Global Connections. We are talking today about what's going on in Brazil as a reflection of what happened on January 6th and possibly as an example of what might happen again in the United States and elsewhere. And for this discussion, we're going to speak to Carlos Juarez, who's at the East West Center and who is very familiar with Latin America. Carlos Juarez, thank you so much for joining us on this very important news story. I think we have to know about it. I think it does affect the United States, and it has an echo chamber with what is going on, what has gone on in Washington, because some people say our insurrection is not quite over. Our insurrection took place last week in the election of Kevin McCarthy. And so insurrections are all the rage these days, aren't they? Tell us what happened in Brazil. Well, welcome, Jay. Always a pleasure and delighted to reconnect with you. And in this case, put on my Latin Americanist hat as a longtime observer and longtime resident as well and specialist in the region. And it does matter, as you've mentioned. I mean, Brazil is, of course, a very important player regionally, of course, the largest Latin American country population economy. But it is a global leader as well, as you well know, part of the BRICS years ago, together with Russia, India, China, and so on. And it was particularly at that time about 10 years ago, under the new now returning President Lula, that Brazil sort of was very prominent. Well, what happened in this last weekend, quite dramatic. We saw massive crowds in Brasilia, the capital, walking up to the ramps of the congressional buildings, taking over the House of Congress chambers, the Supreme Court, I mean, just the gasoline and a lot of destruction. And of course, very much parallels what we saw literally two years ago in Washington, D.C. That is, it is as a result of the outcome of a recent election Brazil held at the end of October. And those basically protesting our supporters, hardcore supporters of the ex president, the outgoing president who did not win reelection. So it got ugly. It's still a work in progress and comes curiously at a time when our own President Joe Biden happens to be in Latin America, a very rare first time opportunity. He's traveled now to Mexico City, meeting with the Mexican President Amlo and Canada's Prime Minister. They're having a trilateral meeting, very important. And so interesting, all three of them issued a very important statement condemning the violence, supporting the president and so on. But the issue is complex. It has a lot of interesting parallels on the one hand, some interesting differences. But it'll be interesting to see how it plays out and how whether the response of the Brazilian government, this new incoming government is going to be quick decisive. But it also underscores, we see a very polarized society in Brazil, very much this outgoing president, a right wing sort of leader who very much had ties to the military himself, a military leader. Keep in mind, Brazil has a very important military in its past history, a political military. That is, they ran the country from the late 60s through the mid 80s for about 20 years as a military regime. So when we speak of the military in Brazil, it's not just abstract. And in people's mind, there are both memories of it and even today, fears of what would the military support him or not. So far, it looks as if they have not, although clearly there are allies and supporters. Moreover, this could not have happened without some pretty clear support and let's say acquiescence from a lot of security forces, intelligence agencies as well. So it's a complex mess, but boy, we're looking at an unravel. And again, the parallels with the U.S. and what happened here two years ago, insurrection, as you noted, of our own capital. Is this something that's going to now become the new norm and fleshing democracies? Interesting topics, but yeah. And I'm struck also with real quick thought is that for the U.S., we saw this as clearly what it was, a very blight to our democracy, long heralded as the beacon of democracy. Now the U.S. is wounded from that and the world sees that. What I want to suggest is that Brazil remains to be seen, but it is a fleshing democracy. It doesn't have, let's say, the long record of the U.S., so it is on one hand a little bit more tenuous, but I want to suggest that it's very possible that the institutions will prevail and Brazil may come out of this even stronger in the paradox in that sense that a weaker, maybe newer democracy gets challenged. Maybe it will prove something that can strengthen it. Again, I'm just speculating there. Whereas for the U.S., I think we're still figuring out what the result is of our own insurrection and even the drama that played out last week. Some would say it's democracy, which is messy, but others would say it's also, at the end, it's not really about policy. It's just this petty, ugly, personality-driven polarization, let's say. No, I don't know enough about this, but maybe you can help me. In this country, it was all based on the election was stolen. Trump's big lie. That was a justification, a rationale of a lot of people who were at the insurrection and who otherwise take the position the election was stolen in so many ways. Quiri, what was the rationalization, if any, for the attack on the government in Brasilia? Was it similar? Was it something like the election was stolen? Some kind of euphemistic rationalization? Definitely very much similar in the sense that it followed many months of very incendiary remarks from Bolsonaro. That is, the election occurred at the end of October, even leading up to it like Trump. He was already addressing fake news and questioning the legitimacy of either rigged elections and the like. Some of it is definitely that, and that makes very clear a comparison. That is, both leaders employed very similar playbooks here, but during and after the electoral defeats, they are leading to concerns in both countries about how robust the electoral processes and the democratic institutions would hold up. So again, Bolsonaro complained vehemently about fake news, insisting that the polling that was used was rigged, etc. Trump himself, interesting about the insurrection, again, some parallels and differences. Trump basically spoke directly to his supporters hours before, you recall, and we've heard a lot of that evidence, and then he remained in his residence. Interestingly, Bolsonaro, of course, is gone. He left shortly before the inauguration to Florida, and he's been in the United States. So very curious how in some ways that gives him almost like a plausible, you know, well, I wasn't there, I wasn't behind it. And yet, you know, the other part is like, will he be, you know, extradited back if the Brazilian government chooses to, you know, push forward and as they could, he's facing a lot of, you know, similar to Trump, a lot of different court, again, you know, not quite, I'm sorry, he's basically being investigated for at least, you know, four different criminal probes himself. All four of these investigations are led by the Supreme Court Justice, who's had a prominent role in this crisis right now. And of course, who Bolsonaro's critics are saying is trying to silence free speech. So it's, you know, it's an ugly debate going back and forth. But the point is, even his presence in the U.S. now, for some, it might be seen as a way to try to get away from it or what. And yet, you know, he could also see fresh investigations that are following because he's no longer a president. He doesn't have the protections of a, you know, a sitting president. And the U.S., you know, who had extradited him if it was presented. So that's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. Well, I really take your point about deniability. I mean, it's like he learned from the select committee in this country. He learned not to be around, not to be directly involved, being in Florida, where you can say, gee, I didn't have anything to do with this. It's a great defense. On the other hand, you know, maybe you can speak to how easy it is to communicate from the United States to any Latin American country. I mean, if he was a co-conspirator, some of his acolytes were, you know, organizing this protest, riot, disturbance, what have you, he could do that so easily from Florida, right? Just pick up the phone, right? Absolutely. And of course, again, we're going to be looking carefully in the days ahead, weeks ahead of how carefully they're going to be investigating this because the bottom line is that clearly, you know, commanders from the military, the police, and even the defense and ministry are likely to be held accountable and forward. You know, there were for many weeks, there were camps that were set up outside of many military bases, which are these protesters, and they were like egging on the military leaders to sort of, you know, step forward and, you know, essentially foster a military coup. And so now you've got, and again, it's very heavily polarized because now you've put the Attorney General and the Supreme Court are more in favor of Lula at this point. They were adversaries, but now they've got a new administration that's supportive. Moreover, looking at just the destruction, and I've been reading and some of them have seen the videos, I mean, it is ghastly. I mean, I'm not sure how you can compare it to what was done with the Capitol. It's more than just the Capitol. It's the Supreme Court. It's the Congress. It's, you know, the executive branch. So, and there were, and the stories I'm seeing, they were like, almost like an apocalyptic, you know, zombie, people walking around, you know, and then there's a funny picture that came out, oh, I'll say funny because in the middle of this, a guy selling like cotton candy in the middle of all this. Moreover, very interesting, many of the protesters dressed in the traditional Brazilian soccer team colors, yellow and the Soccer Federation quickly put out a notice saying, no, we do not, you know, support this as, you know, reflects poorly on. So, again, it's a quite a drama that's playing out. But going back to Brazil as a country, I mean, here you've also had world leaders from everywhere, even from Russia, from Turkey, you know, Europe everywhere, very much supporting Lula and defending, you know, this, but, you know, go back back to Brazil, its role, I mean, under Bolsonaro, the president who's out going, I mean, he was not a particularly, you know, let's say, globally oriented to the extent he was, it was usually with other autocrats like the Turkish leader, maybe the Russian leader and so on, both Lula by contrast, he was president before for eight years, about 10 years ago, and very much very at the time he played a very prominent role in foreign policy on a regional level in Latin America, but also broadly the so-called BRICS, the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa group that came about, you know, in these recent years as part of a global trade and environmental negotiations. And so when he was president before, he was considered one of the most popular politicians, certainly in the history of Brazil, also controversial, but also popular in the world among leaders. Now, having said that, his term was also marked by many scandals, and let's be very, let's remind you, he spent 580 days in jail, that is Lula, the new president literally was in prison for corruption and scandals and then eventually technicalities and, you know, so depending on where you- That's two years, that's two years. Yes, practically almost two years, and he was released, he tried to run in 2018, but again, for a legal reason, he couldn't qualify, he got that cleared up, he came back in one, but what I want to say here, certainly a population that is divided, some of them see him as a corrupt, you know, indicted criminal, and otherwise maybe they bore his politics, you know, on the left, etc. There's a strong, strong element of Brazilian, you know, again, political elite that they focus on stability, they even have yearning for the nostalgia of the military rule days, etc. So it's interesting to see how this is going to both show us Brazil and its, you know, it's a very colorful society, and I mean that in the sense of, you know, it's a very rich, diverse one, and, you know, its democracy, while relatively young, is also, you know, rather at times raucous and bumpy, and even in these last 10 years, when Bolsonaro came to office, I mean, some of the campaigning, he got shot during one of them, and as we speak now, I just read in the last hour that there were reports that he might be in a Florida hospital that have not been confirmed. So it's just, you know, it's kind of like almost like a soap opera that's playing out in its own way. But back to your main point, I mean, clearly anybody anywhere has got, you know, through social media, through, you know, text and other, you know, technologies, an ability to do, you know, what you do wherever you are, doesn't matter, right? So the real question is, you know, how much, and at the end of the day, it's not like he's giving direct orders, he's got supporters that are clearly behind this, but I think what's becoming clear is that this was not something that just came out of nowhere. It was clearly a pretty broad based and there were a lot of people involved in bringing this about. So it's likely to lead on already we've seen, I think, a couple hundred arrests yesterday, another 1200 arrests today. So it's going to be interesting to see what will the violence be contained? Will it go through essentially a process where, you know, this will gradually become more in the courts and played out that way in this country, again, going through its own struggles with, you know, relatively new institutions. And if you look at Brasilia, I mean, this is a country that didn't have a city in Brasilia until the mid-60s. They literally created that city out of nowhere. And so it's a very modern democracy, modern capital, modern infrastructure today that has been destroyed and ransacked. And wow, I'll be interested to see when they do the final count, what damage was done because it looks pretty broad and widespread. Yeah, it's not that big a city. This is the city that Daniel K Ludwig built an American and put all kinds of money into it in the 60s. Yeah, that's I remember that. Yeah, but it's not that big in terms of the population. And you wonder how many of these protesters came from Rio and other places in Brazil to join the crowd from all around. And again, very orchestrated buses. And, you know, this was not just something that just spontaneously out of nowhere, it's clearly very well coordinated. And as I mentioned earlier, they were that many of them were camped out at military bases throughout the country, essentially as supporters of the military. And so yeah, it's going to begin to unravel a lot more of the really the pretty comprehensive protest movement that just didn't, you know, didn't spark spontaneously, but seems to have had a pretty coordinated effort. Well, yeah, I want to I want to go back to the point about the action of the government under Lula. They did arrest hundreds of people. And that it strikes me is that's another lesson they learned from the United States, you don't wait two years. We didn't do a very good job. They went right out there immediately and arrested hundreds of people and are taking action against them. And I guess that had to be done with Lula's support or instruction. And it's it's it's pretty dramatic. Yeah, you think it'll have the necessary political effect, or is it just going to stir things up all the more? You know, again, and then part of the delicate nature is that the history of Brazil, like a lot of South American countries where the military has stepped in to take over through military governments, literally in the beginning in the in Brazil in 1964, and then continuing throughout South America, you know, Uruguay, Argentina, Chile, you know, Peru, military governments were the rule of the day in the late 60s throughout the 70s, not until really the mid 80s. And why I say that is because again, the military as an institution in Latin America is a very political organization, and they have run governments. And while they did leave office discredited in the mid 80s, there were always those who felt that it was unfair and uneven. And that since then, the political leaders have taken the country, let's say in the wrong direction for many, particularly those who, well, who have different reasons to support it. But maybe getting to your key point there is like what's going to play out now. And I want to say the early indications seem to be that President Lula does have the support of the key military police. Now, all of them, that's the challenge. And when you begin to kind of go in and it's one thing to arrest protesters on the scene making violence. But what's going to happen in terms of our commanders from the military, the police, and the defense ministry held accountable in courts. And then it's, you know, how they're treated now. Again, if it's an open, transparent process, it should play out in a way where, they're convicted of having been behind some of this activity. But it remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic that it should be, you know, playing out in that way, because I think Lula has a lot more both legitimacy himself, you know, as the elected leader. By that, I mean that the election itself was not called into question in the same way, even though both of our supporters may question it, they don't have any real teeth behind it. And by and large, there's a strong commitment among the institutions and let's say the polity at large. But boy, again, you know, just you can't discount the possibility that there may be some disgruntled, you know, officers or people who just really, you know, but how can that play out? I don't think we're going to see the kind of military clues of the past. More often what we see are merely, you know, maybe autocrats like Bolsonaro, maybe like today in Mexico, who is militarizing the country using democratic institutions. It's a new style of authoritarian rule where again, civilian leaders are using authoritarian tactics, techniques and so on. But I would say again, right now it looks as though certainly the country is going to stay, you know, intact. And by that, I mean that the president has support of the key security personnel and needs that. And the very important the courts, the Supreme Court, which like the U.S. has always been rather independent than in Brazil. It also, you know, it also is trying to kind of, you know, ensure its place that it's a key part of the process. And so that's that's going to be playing out there. So again, it's it's a work in progress. But boy, you can't help but see the clear parallels, the fact that Bolsonaro and Trump, you know, we're very close, personal and are close personal friends and allies. Curious that he's in Florida now, I mean, just to add a little more to that. Well, there was a report on National Public Radio this morning that Bolsonaro has been meeting with some of Trump's acolytes, which is very disturbing to me. Because it means that Trump is supporting him with whatever influence he might have. I don't know what influence that might be. But, you know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned from what happened on January 6. And it could be that Trump is advising and counseling him and encouraging him to repeat a big lie and go back and try to, you know, give back into power. This is this is disturbing, because it means that the same kind of sickness that Trump has visited on the United States will will then be a factor in how things play out in Brazil. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And yeah, again, it is interesting. But again, I would say right now, the, you know, the international response is what I'm getting, you know, overall, it's been, you know, wanting to support this new leader and president. But boy, you know, at the end of the day, it's going to play out internally. And then they have to handle this domestically. But I go back to, you know, what I was saying earlier is in the case of Brazil, you basically got, like the US, the judiciary is independent. But in the past, many presidents have in practice, they've been able to put pressure on a lot of criminal probes. Well, today, the federal police, which is already investigating Bolsonaro is also run now by a Lula ally. So, you know, but again, that either facilitates moving forward with this, or those maybe the hardcore supporters of Bolsonaro would see this as just, you know, clearly more of a conspiracy all out to get him, etc. But, you know, if, yeah, I mean, clearly, democracy should not have people storming and, you know, trashing the institution. So, this has to be seen for what it is, a violent attack. And, you know, people have to... Yeah, a bunch of government buildings, a number of government buildings, more than just the legislature. It went after the Supreme Court of Brazil also. So, one thing that, you know, you and I have discussed over the years, which I take away from our discussions as a sort of general rule is that the United States is very important to Latin America. You know, we talked to anybody who is, you know, in Latin America or any official in a leadership position or in trade, and they will say that what the United States does and says is very important, very influential. So, I guess, you know, one of the factors that I would see in how this plays out is what, you know, our legitimate government has to say about it. In other words, Joe Biden's in Mexico. This is all over the press now for a couple of three days. And he could say, we support Lula as the legitimate president. We think it's very important that democracy, you know, be preserved and protected in Brazil. And they are, you know, our kissing cousin. And, you know, just generally take a position on things. I guess he's been friendly to Lula over the past few months, but query has he, and it has he said anything now, public statements by American presidents have a huge effect, don't they? Yeah. Well, no, absolutely. And your main point, interesting how you put it, that the United States is very important for Latin America. It's, you know, for many of these countries, often the leading, you know, export market and import, et cetera, large diaspora communities, even the Brazilians today in South Florida and New York, everywhere else, business interests clearly. But, you know, the other challenge, I guess, is a, well, at the end of the day, I mean, right now, because Biden is in Mexico, that's the framing, you know, the main discussion. So he's, they're issuing a statement in concert, you know, the Canadian and Mexican leaders. But, you know, you fast forward on another week or two. And I guess part of me wants to get at this. I think it's fair to say that under Bolsonaro, when Trump was in office, they had a, you know, they were best friends. And yet, the relationship was kind of, I don't know how she was, shall we say, it was, it wasn't like sour or bad, but it wasn't particularly engaging maybe to put it that way. If you can say that, what I would suspect under Lula now, it's likely that Brazil will re-engage more globally and connect more as he did before. He had a, he's a very active foreign policy president. He sees Brazil as a leader in a way that, you know, he wants to represent that other world, the G20, the old third world. And beyond that, I would say that for the U.S., it's probably, or let me rephrase that, for the new Biden administration. Lula is a partner that, you know, there's a lot more things in common in terms of shared interest right now, both dealing with the aftermath of, you know, of the insurrections. But more to the point that I could see Lula coming to Washington in the next few months. I'm not sure that Biden is too keen on going to Brazil. He's doing this right now because of the importance of this, you know, more regional summit with Mexico. But all that to say, I think, you know, U.S.-Brazil relations are likely to continue to be improving, if we can say that, because certainly under Bolsonaro, there were tents, you know, with Biden and they've gotten better. Beyond that, I don't know. I mean, Brazil is in some ways its own unique large animal that it's not dependent on the U.S. for either its legitimacy or, while it is important, Brazil sees itself important to Africa. It exports a lot of machinery and goods that way to Europe. You know, it's kind of like a gateway for Latin America. So, I mean, all that to say, Brazil does have this view. We often use the word in Portuguese it's grandeza, which is the same in Spanish greatness. It has almost like a, you know, not delusions, but visions of grandeur of sorts. You know, it sees itself as a big player and everything it does, kind of like, you know, we often refer to Texas, everything is big and larger. Brazil has a little bit of that. It's a large country and has a lot of pride in that. And under a leader like Lula, again, more willingness to engage, not so much under Bolsonaro. He was kind of, you know, kind of stay at home and always controversial and contentious. Well, but let me just say, again, with the relations with the U.S., again, they're important, they're complex, but I would say, whereas the U.S. is very important to Latin America, while we can show statistically, and in many ways the Latin America is important to the U.S., it's never quite at the top of the foreign policy agenda. It's Russia, Ukraine, China, you know, whatever latest hot spot is there. And oh yeah, Latin America, but bottom line is post 9-11, the last 20 years, Latin America has been neglected by the U.S. foreign policy areas for different reasons. I think unfortunately, because again, it's our main trading partner, it's our main immigration source, it's our border. And today, that Mexican border is not just Mexicans, as we know, they're Central Americans, South Americans, you know, Haitians, Africans, and even some Brazilians thrown in there, they're not, you know, the main face of it. But I can assure you, those border towns that are full of migrants lately, they're coming from everywhere, and it's, yeah, it's interesting. Problem for Biden. And you know, Biden's got a problem at the border and South of the border. And Biden has a problem, you know, I think with Brazil in the sense that Brazil now is testing its democracy. And if Brazil fails in that democracy, Biden doesn't look so good. And we know that Donald Trump likes chaos, he likes to create chaos as a way to enhancing his own power. And that is very important to him now, because he's trying to make his comeback for 2024. So I offer you this theory and see what you think. And Trump would like nothing more than to see the chaos continue in exacerbate in Brasilia and around Brazil. He would be in favor of that. And he would have a good listener at the ear of Bolsonaro, wouldn't he? And so if he could shake things up further, if he could create more chaos, he could criticize Biden for not being able to handle that chaos at our southern, you know, Latin American continent. And he could use it to enhance his political position on the next presidential run. What do you think? Well, it's a tough one. I mean, part of me is thinking, how can someone like Trump benefit from this? Because like showcasing Brazil, you're not going to give credit to the protesters. And unless you condemn it, you're effectively doing that. I don't know, I'm hard pressed to think that I think as this fades away rather quickly by next week, we'll be on to the next hot thing. I don't know that Trump's going to get a lot out of this. But having said that, I think Bolsonaro, like Trump, would probably like to see and foster continued chaos and benefits from that. And would like to see the institutions dysfunctional, because at the end of the day, they're going to be calling on him. Those courts are going to call him back. And we may see the US federal marshals putting him on a plane back to Brasilia. So I think that's more likely, that's my theory. But I may be wrong. Well, I mean, yeah, his first order of business is to stay out of jail, I suppose. And that deniability in Florida is very important. So one more area I'd like to ask you about, Carlos, that's this. You and I have talked often about the aspirational possibility that Latin America could become a continent, that there could be leadership there. And part of the reason there isn't, in my opinion anyway, is that the United States, since the Monroe Doctrine, has not done a good job in dealing with the possibility of encouraging Latin American countries to work together to collaborate and so forth. Okay. And so right now, we have a crisis of democracy in Brazil. I suppose I'm not sure the exact status of it, but we've had a crisis of democracy in what Venezuela as well. And maybe in other countries too, in one degree or another. So my question to you is, all of the Latin American countries, although they don't speak Portuguese, they speak Latin American, you know what I mean? And they're very interested in what happens in every other Latin American country. How do these events and possibilities in Brazil affect other Latin American countries, those that are stable and those that are not so stable? No, I think that's a key point because this is the age of social media where instantly you know what's happening. A month ago, we saw drama playing out in Peru. They had a coup in a day and then just chaos and so on. And these are not insignificant because I'm thinking back, in the history of Latin America, I spoke briefly about the 60s, 70s, those were days where you literally had to wait for the newspaper to arrive and it was different. Now it's instant. Now, having said that, I would also say that there is today a growing, almost interdependence and maybe not quite the same level, but like in Europe, this integration that has happened. So that today, young professional Chileans and Argentinians and Brazilians are increasingly, you know, having a shared identity, not at the level of the European Union by any means, but regionally it is increasingly, maybe Uruguay in Argentina, Chile in Argentina, etc., Mexico to some extent with the Central American neighbor. So this is the reality of globalization, global forces were more connected. We know more of what's happening. Not to mention, look at Mexico, we mentioned all these immigrants. Suddenly Mexico is dealing with immigrants from every place that wasn't the reality even 10, 20 years ago. So they've got to, you know, to understand that suddenly they're no longer this, you know, in the independent country. So all of this to say, gosh, it just underscores the interdependence of the world. And I would say Latin America will never quite reach that sort of integration of the European because there are important differences among them. And I don't know the socialization, but I see it changing among the younger ones. Much like today we speak of maybe a European identity, you know, if you're a young Portuguese or Slovenian or Danish, you've got more in common than you realize maybe then your grandparents did, right? The same with Latin America. Today there's a growing middle class, a growing, you know, interconnected, especially global youth. And when they see these things play out, you can't help but realize it's shaping their worldview and maybe helping to define, I don't know, you know, what is democracy? It's messy. It's ugly, but it also needs to be vigilant. You have to be vigilant in protecting it, etc. So I don't know, just some random thoughts there, but I like how you frame it because at the end of the day, Latin America like other parts of the world, you could say similar things about Africa, parts of Asia, Southeast Asia, maybe where there's this growing mobility of people, of ideas, of connections. And so we no longer speak of these, like Brazil is not just there by itself. It's a regional player. It's a global actor. And what happens there is going to shape and impact other places everywhere. And not just in Latin America, I could imagine in the streets of Jakarta or Seoul or wherever else, people are singing this and going, whoa, this is a real test of what it means to be a democracy. Well, taking it one step further, I'm sure if we went and talked to some of the people who were protesting in Brazil, they would be politically awakened. They would believe that Bolsonaro was the better choice. They would believe the big lie about who won that election, so forth. But they would care. They would care. They would be young, too. A lot of them would be young. And so what that leads me to ask you is this, could what happens, what has happened and what will happen in Brazil affect the stability of other Latin American countries? Will it foment the same kind of political contention elsewhere? If some of those places are vulnerable to these contensions, don't you think? And so there's a dark side to it, isn't there? Oh, absolutely. And the reality, I would say, is Brazil, I think, has shown us that even though it's a newer democracy, I believe, and I have this cautious optimism, it's going to come through and probably strengthen its democracy. Maybe I'm hopeful. What I want to say is that there are other countries not quite as fortunate, particularly some of the Central American countries they don't have, let's say, a history of stronger institutions and their civil societies, not as, let's say, organized. And similar, a few other countries in South America that are a little bit less, I don't know, consolidated, let's say. So yeah, there is that risk. And yet, having said that, there's also the other side that maybe this can show us that, yeah, there's a price to be paid. We have to be careful. You have to be more vigilant. You have to try to learn from this to avoid it from happening. And yet again, easier said than done. Well, hopefully, America can send a message supporting ruler and democracy. And that would have an effect, hopefully, even though it's not a direct effect necessarily, and take steps perhaps as it should have been taking in years past to bring Latin America to a better place. I hope so. I know you do too. Thank you for joining me on this discussion, Carlos. It's very important that we follow what's going on. They are our neighbors. They are our cousins anyway. And what happens there ultimately has an effect on our lives here. Thank you so much, Carlos. Thank you, Jay. Always a pleasure. And let me just add that, even though it's small, we have a Brazilian diaspora here in Hawaii that's long-standing in different areas, business, but also even the surf community, no doubt. So we've got, again, a connection here we don't always realize. But as far away from Brazil, we have a piece of it here too. Yeah. And there's the Brazilian connection on Hawaii Public Radio. That's right. We get some great music again in the popular culture. It's all there. Yes. It's all there. Thank you, Carlos. I hope to see you again. Happy New Year. Aloha. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.