 Welcome to Toffee TV, it's the debate. It's fast, it's the most open-coming Toffee TV patron show there is. Not like when they go on TV and go, table tennis underwater is the fastest growing sport in Indonesia. This is sort of like that. I think it's becoming a fan's favourite. In Indonesia? I don't know, I have to check the analytics. Maybe in Turkey. In Turkey it might be. Maybe just debate Towson. Right, photo is live but which is better? Should we call it the Towson debate? Towson debate and see what the views are like. We're continuing our little history lesson. It's about Joe Ruel. Joe Ruel's here, November 1994. He's just joined the club. We prized them away from all of them. It's funny isn't it when you're like looking at managers and it's got to be like, I can't not get the manager from me. I'm not getting the manager from there. I'm not going to do this. Old them. Except for no one. He was linked with it. He wanted the job a few times, didn't he? And it just passed him by a few times. But when the, all the stars aligned at that time for him to come in, didn't he? And he wanted the coming. Similarly to Sam, I suppose he fitted the criteria as well. He'd had seasons struggling with Old them. He'd obviously done really well with them. He kept the Premier League that season. He had gotten to epic up semifinals. He'd done really well with them, so I suppose from that point of view is the right fit as well. At the right time because obviously we started the season poorly under Mike Walker, I mean. And again it was the, I think just the everton connection more than what he'd done at Oldham. Obviously what he'd done at Oldham did. Give him his, you know, give him his backhand and everything, but I think the everton connection ticked it over. The edge, and obviously like I said, he'd been linked with us a few times. And he had done well at Oldham. Oldham were a tough side, you know. He'd not done so at the FA Cup a few years before. And he'd, you know, he'd, you know, within seconds of an FA Cup final till Mark Hughes scored an absolute well. He'd have a volley and he'd done really well. So he'd done well. Good attack on football. He'd, you know, direct in terms of winning the ball. But he had two wingers, you know, Rick Holden, who was, was like the worst footballer ever, the greatest left footer. I mean, he didn't have a trick, but he'd just stand you up and cross him ability. He was fantastic. And, you know, we'd have Neil Adams or someone else down the right hand side and Roger Palmer and A. Marcell. Frankie Bone. Frankie Bone and all of those, you know, and Milligan. And so he'd crafted like a decent little side. Dennis Saban. Dennis Saban, yeah. El Barrett. You know, so he'd had a, he'd just named, Andy Gorham, just named the whole old himself. Yeah, 25 years old. So yeah, so when, when his name was up there, obviously Mike Walker had gone and Everton actually acted quickly, which was very un-Everton-like. I think they obviously knew who they were going to target, you know, walk up and up the door. Joe come in and Joe came in and seemed to unite the players and the fans and the fans and obviously ahead of a messy side, we were, we were, we were bottom and they were top that night coming in on the Monday night. So he'd united that and obviously helped win it. That, that would have been on the Monday and it set everything in motion. Got the right temperament. So in terms of signings then, I mean this again, it's not a, it's not a vast the period of time. It's only, it's only, what? 18 months was it? Was it even that long? It was a bit longer. No, it was longer, wasn't it? It was so, it was November till April 97, wasn't it? Yeah. So yeah, two and a bit, yeah. So just over two years there, isn't it? One full season, only one full season. One full season, oh yeah. Which is ridiculous when you think about it, when you think back and a big waste opportunity, but didn't sign that many players, but there was a bit of a big turnover of players and I think a newer calibre of kind of players were coming in as well. We didn't deal with sort of bargain basements as much. We were trying, we were on the up and we were looking for bigger and better players. And Peter's young some button. The money ended me and freed us up a little bit more than what we'd had. And obviously the player I've gone for was, have you seen him or have you? Go on, who have you gone for? I've gone to say Andrew Eccentials. You've got to say Andrew Eccentials because he was just incredible. He, as a footballer, when you talk about world class, he was in that. When you look at it in a team where a player would have got in any other team in the league, waltzed into any other team in the league. He did, he'd come from the champions. It was no one he'd had to fall on out with. Alex Vegas and really that he left, you know. And for Everton to get him at that time, he was playing for the champions and a key part of data team for us to go and take him was incredible. And then, and he delivered as well, albeit he was only there for a short period. That season, his full season, he had 16 goals. Absolutely incredible football. It was absolutely unbelievable. Just one of the best players I've ever seen in Everton Shate. Dynamic. Like foot left. Just had everything go by. I'm scared people. Genuinely scared the opposition. Genuinely scared the opposition. Felt like you had a world class player in your club that, and that hasn't happened that many times. As I say, for the year and a bit, 18 months or so that he was at the club. And obviously, when he left the club, you know, people felt like he wanted out, but he told us on this show that he didn't want out. You can only take his word for it. And you know, he said, again, a decision was made that the club wanted to make a profit on him and bring other people in. And sadly, that's what happened. He went up the door, and we were all devastated there. And now, at the time, he was out of form a little bit, but... He still scored in goals, though. He still scored goals. It was kind of the month when we sold him just around that time. He wasn't playing well, and then we'd have breathed it out, and he had to fake up, and he was asking about where the ball and waddle-sucker off and scored, and people, you know... And also, he just had a great season, and then he had the Euros, and the Euros weren't that good for him. He was under-performed, really. Maybe he was a hangover from that as well, and he never quite did it. My one is... It's Gary Speed. You thought I was going for Duncan? The reason I've gone for Gary Speed is... Yes, Duncan was brought on beforehand, and there was a big climate to sign him, and we did, and it was a big thing. But I think about the Gary Speeders, and again, it's sort of similar to yours. We brought a player coming into the peak of his career from a club that had only three seasons beforehand with the league champions. And we brought a player on the up who was magnificent for us. He came in, he replaced Barry Owne in the centre of field, and on the first day he showed you what he had to go on against Newcastle. We beat all the teams to him, and he wanted to come and play for Evan. He was a catalyst. He was showing you what we didn't have at the club at the time. And again, it was about where the club was going and where he wanted to go. We look around now, and we look about signings, and you look about who we bought this summer. But he was him and Konchelskas. They were really way, I know they were a summer apart, but it was almost like you bought one, and now you're buying the next one. It was almost like we were building towards something, and a bit later on we bought Barry. And we started to create this team by buying the best players around us from other clubs. Listen, I know we've tried to do that in a way recently, but this felt a lot more structured. So what we had, we had a base, we had a structure, and then we were buying players that went in and made that structure better. I think this carry speed was absolutely fantastic for us, even for the short period he was there. And obviously, the next day, well, in saying the issues, meant that he left Everton, you know, ahead of the time, and he didn't really want to leave Everton, but felt he couldn't continue there. And actually, the way he played out, he wanted to come back in the summer, he'd only just left in. The February went, didn't he? And he thought that he was trying to get back to Everton in the summer when he changed the manager and stuff. And again, the following summer, but didn't, it didn't happen. He was a fantastic midfield player at Everton. And Steve, my uncle's work with his dad, and for you, when he was at Leeds, he was like, oh, he's desperate to play for Everton, he's never told me anything like that. And he was great at goalscoring midfield players, fantastic in the air. I've got his boots, actually. He gave me a pair of his boots. He wore them, and the others showed him. But absolutely brilliant footballer. And in that team, you know, when we had him, we had Kincelskis and Gary Sping, Duncan Ferguson, and, you know, we had a good side there, and like he said, Barbie came in. And when Barbie came in, I remember he won one, they were Barbie counting in December, and we were getting sort of, of course, and people were saying, Everton are the dark horses for the league. And six weeks later, we were a little bit like, I suppose at the time, we were a little bit like the equivalent to sort of Tottenham being the last couple of years, maybe not now, but maybe a little bit before that, we had all the right pieces. We were building something. Job had come in, obviously, first season. We won three on the bounce, you know, Liverpool, Chelsea, then Leeds game. And we were flying with a bit of a wobble over Christmas, got beat boxing day four, won by Sheffield Wednesday. It was first goal off the sign. We had a bit of a grim remember there, there. He went and won, there. There was a great error. What's the difference there? Mark Bright's score, too. You know, we got ourselves sorted. And in the cup, obviously, we approached the cup a little bit more differently. We were a little bit more, we rolled our luck at Bristol City, remember that day, I remember being in Bristol thinking, we're going to win this. Yeah. Because we got absolutely battered. Well, we won third round. Hinchclips got against Darry, it was five minutes from the end. Craig Shaw played for them and he played very well. Yeah. And then we went to Bristol and we were mulled away. We were absolutely, I remember they had won and I think it hit the post and it just won across the line. And I remember we got battered and then Matt Jackson just popped up and smacked one and it just, oh, it was a goal. And I remember their fans were trying to get on the pitch to get into our end and all kinds of properly went off. And we just thought that day and then, you know, we played that, we played that like sort of like Norwich. We batted them. We beat them five. We beat them. And as players started to play, Limpard started to play football. And, you know, the league form is still up and down. Hinchclips got the one they were winning. That was secure. And obviously you got semi-final. Newcastle, which was a tough game. And I remember, you know, we beat them one, they were flying. Dave Watson got the header. And I remember after the game... The pitch. What? The pitch was just a slam pit. I remember after the game, the draw had been done. And I remember I was like, Spurs, spurs, your next spurs, your next and all this. And it's semi-final again. No real danger at all. No one ever thought... I don't think everyone wanted, man, your next spurs. And we don't spurs that down. And your next spurs, as we spoke up before, it was never any real fair. It's like, it's dead or... Spurs was mad though, wasn't it? The semi, because I remember going... Just convinced we beat them. Even though they were boss. And they had, like, liners. Sharing them and everything. They were, like, great, that's what I'm saying. Now, I've had, like, 15 tranquillizers to go the game. We battled big off from the money. It was just like a different feel. Was there less expectation or... Not expectation, I think expectation's the wrong word. Just less fear. Less fear, like, football's just become... Oh, the fear hasn't... The fear of winning, the fear of losing. Yeah, yeah. You're right, and I think... I don't know whether it was because... Only a few years before, you know, say a few years before about, like, 10 and then eight years before we won the league. So we had that taste in me, but... I don't know whether it was that. I don't think, obviously, football was as... as much of a fishbowl as it is now. And, well, everything's heightened now because of social media. So you didn't really... If you didn't have Liverpool fans who you made, you didn't really converse with them, did you? So there was none of that. Other fans, other clubs, you know, fans you didn't speak to, obviously. Because unless one was living in your area, why would you talk to it? And why would you know Newcastle fans? You're not that big. Or honestly, you take it eyeball, eyeball and all that shit. You know, whether or not it was because of that. So then teams, it was easier to like teams, if you know what I mean. Because you had to interact with their fans. Like, Newcastle, remember? Around that time, Newcastle were brilliant to watch. And you were like, I hope these were in the league. Well, I didn't mind them, you see, because United just don't mind. And so I was like, ah, I hope they win. They're brilliant to watch. They were really good, but it bades me and Andy Cole and all, and they were great to watch. No! I don't want them to win a raffle. I want them to win a bleeding throw-in. Just like that. They were mad at me then, if they were fans. They were like, cocks. I just mean as a team to watch. So you'd appreciate to go football. But once you interact now with the fans, you see that there's some dickheads around. You just think, oh, actually, I hope you don't win now and all that. So I think there was less pressure. So when we played Spades, it was just out of the game and you were just looking going, we'll beat these because we're playing it. And obviously we came out that day. It's still one of the best ever performance I think I've ever seen from a position where we were underdogs. We were a bit anti-perform like that. Newcastle was a battle in that quarterfinal. I remember Real Fox missing a chance at the end into the side net and at the park end. Oh, no, there's a park industry. Yes, a park end one. It's the side net, many should have scored right at the end. And I remember thinking, that's the semi, we're off to the semi. But the semi-final, the display was just phenomenal. We beat them four when we were brilliant. And they only, they got a penalty that sharing them won't. Base goal we can see in the hole. Exactly, the only goal in the whole thing. The only goal we can see in the whole thing. Now we were brilliant and I like shy United going to the cup final. That again, that was a shame in you. They just threw the league away at West Ham the week before. It was mad. It was mad and it was like, but as I said, like they had no cancer in the final and yeah, I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know why. Like you just said, all those things like whether it was just like, because it was getting that back the first time we've been since like 89. And it was like, we'll be all right here. Because no matter what happens, we've done well this season. I don't know whether, I don't know whether like people just didn't put the expectation on it. So it didn't, you know what I mean? It was more like magical, I think. Going to the cup final and it was like wimbly, wimbly way and walking up. And what was mad was that when ride out it, when stupid it, the bar, I didn't follow the ball. I just focused on the net. So I just seen the ball. Everyone jumped up, obviously. I just looked at the net and I just seen the ball at the net. The expectation we would score. Not like, oh, what happened there? It was just like hit the bar, just stayed at the net and the ball and the net. And what was that when we scored? 25th minute or so. Like the panic now, thinking you've got a Savada and that man you're breaking near the end, trying to kill it with it. And I'm a cat even, so Michael come up and be broken. He has no goalie and he cuts inside. Just let it, and he went past another one. And then another one, then like held on to it. Just, where are you? Just let it. I just remember for like, the thing about me, for me was the cup final was I don't got it injured, I checked it Wednesday. I was there and I think he beat us 2-1 or 3-1 or something. And I remember, it was like that was that it was like, would he be back with the final? Would he be back? Because obviously he wasn't there for the final. That's where we had games to do it. But it was that actual the fact of game shooting, poor ride out, sort of goal is there. And then Duncan was on the bench. It wasn't fair, but I was... So you remember though, that obviously there was no mole. There was no Belfield mole cutting teams out so, and they come out of warmer and everyone was changed. Like, she were barlow and everyone even though he was nose and even in the royal at them all changed, they were playing. And then Duncan had them come out. So they all come out and then I'm a catchy jog top and everyone's clapping and they were all warm and up and there was nothing and everyone was like, you bastard, he's not made it. And then the next minute, because we were in the tunnel and me the next minute, he just there, oh, oh, and he come up with the shot on and everyone jumped nothing down and he just jogged at the seat. Because he was like, oh my God, he's fit. Because he was that tall as man. Like it didn't, as long as he was playing, or you had the chance. The thing of that is, three slubs, one goalie, two cents a forward. Look at that. It was a goal for it, man. Royal, it was just a goal for it. But we had the plays on the pitch. And she could have dropped into the field. And an inch clip could have gone over there. There was options, but it was still a brave thing and he put both of them on. Both sliders came on. Do you know what I mean? Duncan went for that. And he just flattened Michael and right through him. Like, yeah, we'll see that. And remember his chance he missed. It was a shame, and he went right across the goal and you were like, oh, was that it for Tuner? And then Southall obviously pulls off that double save from Scholes. And you're just like, this is that. I remember when the whistle and I was crying, tears were just running down my face. And I was just like, oh my God. And I'm winning again. When we beat the man down on the moose because it was fucking a long time. But it was, it was just incredible. And then that feel, to win the court was incredible. Went back there obviously and beat Blackberry with champions. Despite she had a fucking diving at the end. I remember that dive right at the end a little. Went to beat them, Vinnie with a great cross shot. And it felt like something was happening. We got the rushing in, you know, cancels came in and we were on the move. We brought in, in the first season, we brought in Duncan. We brought in... That was a big thing, big thing now mate, because Walker had brought them in. And it was all, he's only coming through. It was a three month long. It was a three month long. It was three months. And I remember a few weeks before the Derby. Might have even been like two weeks. And even after the Derby, he was saying, there's absolutely no chance he's staying. Reigns was saying, Reigns was wanting back. He's not staying. And Royal, I think the thing with Royalport, memory got dumb for during driving. In town. The night before the Derby. Yeah. And people were like, he shouldn't be involved and all that. He just sucked a little bit of part that night. Bullied them, scored. And then obviously too, the relationship between them persuaded them, you know, persuaded them to sign. And four weeks after Reigns was saying, there isn't a chance he's staying. He signed for four million. You know, and so that was such a big, that was such a big thing. Yeah, I think he just felt probably just felt like, he's getting me. He's getting me, I'm alright. No one's on my case. I go home. I'm not. People are not. Don't forget, he's still had the ban. He's getting over. Yeah, the prison, all of it, hanging over. But he's probably fit. Reigns, maybe, were a bit like, I just want to get rid of this fella. Where is everyone? No, no, we'll look after him. Whatever happens, we'll look after him. We'll stand by him. Which he did. And he signed, remember when he signed. I'd already got, number nine figs on the back of my shirt. Even when he wasn't with us, on the back of my white shirt. I've still got it at home. It's signed as well. And I was just like, I'm getting it. I don't care. I just don't care, I'm getting it. Because I just fucking love them. And a whole wall in my back. I wish I took a picture of it. Whole wall in my room was just dunking figs in pictures. All around the sides, in the middle was a frame, dunking figs in picture that someone had drawn. And it was, remember the day he signed when he got lashed on the stairs. I love them. I just fucking love them. Because he was a fella who would fight for you. It's interesting that, because when we were talking on the final word and stuff, and you're talking about Williams and Snidlin, deliberately getting sent off or anything, the amount of games dunking just threw us under the bus. I don't ever think that we, but I don't ever think, I know, but, But when in those days, it was just like, it felt like it was done out of pure anger. Well, it was, wasn't it? It was. It wasn't like I won a week off. No. It was, but that's just where it felt at times. He just, he had the people you should kick shit out of him just sometimes. Yeah. I don't forget this one. And he probably had all those injuries as well. He probably just reacted to all kinds, you know, and it. No, but I, I love him. But anyway, you know, we brought in ill Barrett as well. I always thought it was a weird time because I thought Matt Jackson was there to get better and did in the cup run, scored the goal in the semi-final, scored the goal at Bristol. It was a good sort of player. I just think he needed. I think he liked Barrett because he was a good defender. Didn't he, but he was dreadful going forward. He couldn't, he was a bit like Tommy. He was, you know, like a Tommy. Matt Jackson, I just think needed time. Jackson was great going forward, defensively getting caught off. I think Barrett was a better centre back. I thought because there was no expectation on him. He was, yeah. Jackson was probably more of a modern-day fullback. Yeah, he was. So he brought, and then in the summer he brought in, he brought in Craig Short, who has said that he's impressed against us in the FA Cup. Yeah, yeah. I was a good solid player. I liked Craig Short. There was a time where he was really, really good and he always thought, everyone always put him on, face goals, score 40 to 1 and on boxing days, go against Middlesbrough, and everyone made money on it. He should bring the ball off from the back and everything. Yeah, he's a good player. We brought him almost as like the replacement for Watton in me and obviously we brought Andre Contelso's 5 million. The following summer, we brought in Gally Speed and Paul Gerrard. Let's say I brought him, the better. And then the following summer, we brought in Barby, which was October. Terry Fielin and Klaus Thompson. So Joe didn't make that many signings. He thought, you know, he looked at it and thought he had the core and obviously then the bench was a big thing. He didn't have loads of space on the bench. He didn't need a massive squad. Barby was a good... I mean, I know. Barby again, Barby was a good sign. If he hadn't been a good sign, Liverpool wouldn't have wanted him. He was a good player, scored important goals. He played in the hole for us as well. So he linked up really well and, you know, with other players like Ferguson... He was very good for Walter Smith. Barby wasn't he? In that formation he was brilliant for Walter Smith. With the midfield at the court and Hutchison and that. He was very good. But what it shows is that we didn't... it wasn't like... we went from a relegation for the team to a team that finished just outside the European place. It's just... if it was the way it was now, we would have been in Europe. Sengigal, one, I can say, right? Bacampos, he scored... Bacampos? Joe Parch, he scored a BB-filler. One of them, he scored at the end and then they scored just after it, to finish. But we were very close that season and... but it was almost like... what was annoying was, it was like... but we got we got and then we got speed and then we lost Celsius and then we brought in Barbie and then we lost speed and now we're going away from Joe's area but then we lost... then we lost Joe. So it was always like... two steps back, one step forward in terms of personnel because we just... we're buying good players but... as I say, that team, I mean, especially in, you know, the season when he left, I mean... like you said before, Derby County, you know, we beat them or flying. I think that was like 16th of December, something like that. He leaves at the end of March. We'd only won three games, I think, between then, seen then in the end of March and obviously he left on after the transfer deadline day because I remember it as well. It was... I think we spoke about this before. We'd gone in for tour on the 8th floor. We wanted to centre forward. He wanted the midfielder as well. His mate. Clowcheck. Which was like a... it was like a sweetener for the deal, wasn't it? I was your defender, wasn't I? Yeah. It was like a sweetener for the deal, man. Again, like Kendall, we lose our manager because... because he won't... he won't sanction the sanction. And I remember it as well because we were... we were... on that day, we would like... it was like it was done, you know, again. It was harder then because you didn't have all the... you didn't have all the leaks and everything. But it was a fact. It was like one of the... like, you know, Viejo was saying, oh, that's done, and that's who we were like, oh, today it'll be done. And we would... there was a... we were having the umbroke up in the summer. And there was a press conference. They were like, oh, we're going to a press conference. Because there was a... there was like a local TV channel to time on cable, Liverpool, Ladd or something like that. We're going to a press conference and everyone thought this was where they allowed it. And I remember sitting there watching it. And for some reason I had the sound down and they were all, I'm sitting there going, what's going on here? And I was like, the manager of one of the teams we were playing and they were talking and Joe Roy was there. He looked a bit sheepish. Like, this should be the press conference for the signing of the players. And it wasn't. So this one broke up. And I was just like, what were you supposed to do with the players? And I remember going to my mate. I went to my mate to my mate. It was like, Joe Roy was just like, what? I've just been watching him and literally just left the house watching him. And just couldn't fathom it out. Just could not fathom it out. But, you know, if you believe what, you know, you're here. He went into a room with Peter Johnson and somehow talked himself into the league. Like, it was like, I think he thought he went in there to bluff. Johnson called him on his bluff and he ends up leaving with me by mutual consent. It was just mental. Yeah. It was very, very strange, it was very strange indeed, because that day as well with the flow and ectavar, I think we'd also agreed to sign Slavin' Billet and West Ham that day. And we wanted them then. Joe wanted them then in West Ham. Wouldn't sanction, you know, said, no, it would be the summer. You know, we won until the end of the season, basically, and Joe was a bit pissed off with that. Player wanted to come. And all that. And then, yeah, the flow thing was done. It was like, yeah, it's shining today and blah, blah, blah. And he ends up, a few hours later, walking out of his job. You know, where he's obviously gone in and gone, well, I want them. I want both of these players, I want them. Johnson might have, you know, whatever he said, all these signings and all that. All right, so yeah. And that was it. It was done. And you're like, how do... The problem was, the problem was what had happened was we were really good. Beat Darby and all that. And he remember we went up to Borough and got beat 4-2, Joe Parkinson, that was the day he got injured. We got battered at Niddles for 4-2 over Christmas time. And then we went on to like a bad little spiral. He was injured for ages. Yeah, that'll give you the run of games. So we played... We won with Darby. I'm sure it was like December the 4th. So December the 16th we played Darby. Okay. We won 1-0. Yeah. And we were actually 7th in the league. Okay. So we were 7th in the league. The team that day was Neville Southall, Aire Ballet, Dave Watson, Dave Rundway, Fandy Yinskiff, Andre Kincelskas, Nick Barby, Joe Parkinson, Gary Spie, Michael Branch, Gameshoe, coming out of town, Duncan Favre, Nick Barby scored with 3 minutes to go. I remember because it was live on TV. Yeah. Then we played Leeds at home. We do nil-nil with them. Yeah, nil-nil, yeah. Boxing day. Went to Middlesbrough, got B-4-2. Wimbledon at home on the 28th, got B-3-1. Black Bay in at home, got B-2-0. So two home defeats in a row. Played Swindon in the FA Cup. Third round won 3-0. Went to Sheffield Wednesday and got B-2-1. Went to Arsenal and got B-3-1. That was the one where Duncan Favre was in the big tower and everything. Bad for them beaters in the FA Cup. Newcastle beaters 4-1. Forrest, we beat, we won 2-0. Coventry, we drew nil-nil with away. Arsenal, we got B-2-0. Southampton, we drew 2-2. Leeds, we got B-1-0. So we're losing a lot of games here. Barby, we beat 1-0. And then we played Man United and got B-2-0. They were obviously top of the league at the time. And that was just last game. Then on afterwards, Dave Watson was K-Taker manager. Got beat 3-1 by Ville. Drew 1-1 with Leicester. Beat Tottenham 1-0. That was the catalyst of that day. Drew 1-1 with Liverpool. Drew 2-2 with Westam. Got beat by Sunderland 3-0. And then got beat last game of the season. 2-1 by Chelsea. So what had been a very promising season? A very promising season. We ended up finishing 15th, 42 points. Well when we beat Spades, that was when Dave outplayed my field when he left on a motorbike and went to China over every event. But we had 30 points in the middle of December. That was the thing. The wheels just fell off. Parky got injured and we just couldn't seem to put anything together. Then what happened was we'd lost a few games and then Joe started getting some criticism and he bit with the echo and a couple of others and he banned them from the training ground so that intensified everything. So every defeat was highlighted. So it became a situation where it was quite topical. To be honest, it went full circle. He sort of left the club as he found the club which was weird because of the plays he'd brought in. But it's sad because if he brought in, okay he brought in Billet, Billet wasn't a massive success but you can understand from Billet's point of view he excited forever and looking up and with Joe Royal and maybe being promised new signings and if Flow comes in we see what he did with Chelsea, he's fantastic. And then you've got the basis then of a really good team. You keep Barbie, you keep Spades and you add a couple more plays. You've got the basis of a good team there, it's a challenge for European football at least but we went the opposite way. Joe leaves and then how it comes in in the summer. The club was all over the place, it didn't know. It's anything of that. We'll talk about that in the next video. But it was just sad wasn't it? More than anything it was just sad to see the way it all just... I think it was one of them where it was just an overreaction. It was an overreaction cost us. We talk about overreactions now but the mad thing is if I think back no one was saying Joe Royal needs to leave even though we hadn't won that many games no one was going. People had patience, people had time for Joe, people saw the team and you're right with Joe Park, Joe Park was a massive part of this team massive in the last video we talked about we couldn't say I picked him but we couldn't say he was a big but he was a huge influence on the team he was so good, he was on the door knocking on the door for playing for England he was so important because he really meant something playing for England but he used to sit in front of the back door and that wouldn't allow Garry Speedy to go forward he was so important he was just a brilliant footballer for what he'd done, he was great at his job and he'd allow everybody else to do their job and he was a good side and his injury cost us massively and we had another couple of injuries and it didn't work out well and we had Clogs Thompson and he was just but you know what would we say on Clogs Thompson he'd been alright for Ipswich he'd been a bit of a playing loads of different positions and maybe that's why he bought him because again, he's the such you need a player who I think was a leader I've got to know Joe personally and he's such a sad fella and so humble though knows where he comes from ever so many through and through and I just think that humble in his football as well knew that his job was to do do the fetching and carrying for the people like Speedy and other players that was a massive loss of course you know, we lost Kinshelskis as well he'd gone and went not long after the wheels just came off didn't he it was sad because it shouldn't have ended that way for a manager that won us a cup, won us our last Sophie you know what ended too quickly and in a way that it didn't need to and was quite messy at the end and it ended any kind of relationship with Peter Johnson as well anything that he'd been forgiven for before you know not maybe not sanctioning a dealier though there people would probably give him the benefit we're keeping it for this or because it happens all the time this in football one person something that they do that you praise them for suddenly becomes something that you exactly later on it's happened recently with like this stuff and I think it was the same for him this was the thing that broke the camel's back this was the thing where fans just went whoa whoa hang on that's the failure just won us the FA cup and you're allowing them to leave without any kind of fight and you're not sanctioning deals for and we've seen this before we were only a few years down the line from Kendall leaving and the tournament backcourses Joe came in to fix something that had been broken because of a manager leaving now and the mad thing is we've seen this again this is a video from another day but we've seen this repeated later on in the Walter Smith era so it's in that period it was weird it's not like no one said we had loads of money but you know do it the right way you've got a back you manager if you put someone in charge and you want them to fix you and he's delivered for you that's the other thing he delivered the FA cup delivered the top six finish this is only the next season we've you know we've won the FA cup we've gone into Europe we haven't really done anything in Europe being knocked out but the next season that same season we finished sixth we were touching distance away from Europe again we've had a strong first half of the season got a few injuries fallen a bit back this fella that's delivered for you he's won you the cup and you've had the sixth place finish and look how good you were at the start before the injuries kicked in back him and we didn't and we should have done, Johnson should have just signed off on it but I think Johnson was always guilty of and I wonder whether happened in this one where like he sanctioned billage to come in and you wonder whether he sanctioned the tour and they flow and then pulled back and then but then Joe might have said well I wanted tour and they flow more than I wanted billage and he was guilty that a few times Johnson he was guilty that under Walter Smith as well where maybe he promised too much and then had to go back and then by the time it was done it was like you'd gone well I'm gone I wanted him actually more than him but you promised me both of them and I ended up with one of them but he's actually would have preferred the other one I've missed out on something more important again it's just another episode and everything just fucking it up royally literally just fucking it up big time and you know as I say, as a fan I don't remember there being any panic of course you know you look at the situation but I remember I remember then when we got Watson and it felt like same old same old it was like fucking hell you need a big win you need a couple of wins here or a win here or whatever so stay open you're a fan we had to be we beat Spurs that day and I remember that was like we're alright now, we let Brad out go to China after the game we actually got Man of the Match we were in a field and got on a motorbike and went that was the thing and he got off the door you know it's a real bit Liverpool there's now we get to be like 54mm or something if that was the situation but it was just mad and you look back and you just go it's one of them that you were like that happened all of a sudden we just lost the man and he had a good record in the derby he could have been he could have been in place for a few years he could have been in place for 10, 15 years well 10 years you know with the right he could have been up to Moise you know what I mean he could have I think he was only in his 50s at the time so he was young enough but that's what I'm saying he could have easily have stuck around and with the right backing in the way he premiered he's 68 now isn't he so 2048 that's just ridiculous so with the way the Premier League when Kendall came out for the third time he was younger than when Cooman so that's exactly nobody had stayed in charge with the way the Premier League was growing and the way he'd been a manager in the new experience and the way he handled players and the way he'd handled big players who knows over a stupid little spat but that should have been handled better by Johnson as well shouldn't it but Joe's even said himself he said I walked into the room to kick off or something and I've walked out not the Everett manager and not quite sure why you know and he said since I wanted to you know I shouldn't have made that mistake but he has and it's just another as I say another self-sabotage it's just what we do we're brilliant at self-sabotage self-destruction and until we stop these cheap of mistakes everything's just repeating itself well then someone else has to come in to pick the pieces up and again someone has to come in and do a job that's not really the job they're just cleaning up for the next the whole thing about this was and it was I remember because I was in university and I remember getting stick off some lead slate after the oiler got because this was the famous you know the names are going to excite you we've got the summer well class manager lined up he's in and the names, the players we've got lined up so you're like oh alright then he's getting rid of the Royal was safe summer he's going to bring in a big name I'm going to spend some money in and as it transpired and he gave us one we had the Dutch fellow he was famously sitting on the post of the Royal and he was like give me the job of Dutchman and Bobby Robson I think he wanted but Bobby Robson hadn't given them any indication he wanted it so all of that was going on and you're like stop making promises that you can't keep and that was what happened and we ended up getting howered in because Bobby Robson fell through and we kind of fell through because we didn't again Andy Gray was there go and play golf and let us know in a couple of days what did you do for those here so Andy Gray went off to Spain La Manga to play golf in Spain and Sky you haven't actually signed a deal with Everton and Andy Gray he said he tried to contact Everton to say what's happening and he was like I couldn't get hold of anyone so Sky signed this thing and the thing with Andy Gray was he lined up to a york a degree to come and stuff like that you know and when the york was at Villeran it was like 18-20 goleges and it didn't happen and we ended up with Garrett Farley on the tribe in the summer and that was the well-class name and what to be signed what this space and all that ended up being Slavin Village that one for the next one but yeah another exciting chapter of Everton fucking themselves quite literally only Everton so we had that thing with No Other Club with the three dots a few years ago No Other Team Do you have it? another massive fuck up by Everton football club but anyway Baz has picked on Jake and Chelsea's I've picked Gary Speed let us know your thoughts in the comments thanks for watching the debate we'll see you later