 My name is Janati Stolier of the second. I'm the chairman of the United States transhumanist party Which seeks to put science health and technology at the forefront of politics our first core ideal is the pursuit of significant life extension through science and technology and I am also the author of this book, which is Death is Wrong the children's book on indefinite human life extension and Illustrated children's book that tries to get more people to become scientists technologists innovators like Edouard like Alejandro like Harold like the people we're speaking with here today Well, I'll follow my name is Ben Zion. I'm the vice chair of the United States transhumanist party the aforementioned organization and president or candidate for 2020 for that organization and I too am a life extension advocate and organizer and a universal super longevity is the nearest and dearest of things to my heart and I I value so much the research and work of folks on this call and I hope to Do what little I can to contribute to this and other strategies including those in public policy to achieving that outcome And happy to see you. Yes Hey everyone, my name is Bobby Ridge and So I have a bachelor's in biomedical science and I have a YouTube channel called life extension research a lot of others have YouTube channels on here, so it's really great to have all of you on and You know, I really look forward to helping life excel calm this as much as possible and you know, I plan on being at the forefront of you know, manufacturing life extension treatments cell and gene therapies and supplements foods and And you know, just trying to make as much money as fast as possible in this sphere so that I can fund this Science so that we can extend our life spans to that for thousands of years Yeah Auntie perhaps Small introduction Yes, I'm from Finland and I've been kind of a longevity Advocate for quite a some time Very close relations with the Ilya Ilya Stampler And I'm working in a micro fabrication Area on the outer University as a process engineer. So I have a quite a good access to all kind of tools Analysis microscopy fabrication things like that Everybody my name is steel archer. I'm the host of detonation Where we're busy putting death out of business big advocate of the US transhumanist party big advocate of everyone in this room and life extension in general and you know, we're always going to be there to promote life extension and to put life extension at the forefront of the general, you know the general public, you know Promote life extension in a way that gets the general public excited about and acclimated to the notion of general life extension of humans You know if humans so absolutely fantastic to have this meeting here today Very excited to have this meeting and I look forward to hearing the views of everyone in this room. Thank you very much So happy to meet you all and so I know most of you already Through many exchanges, but we don't have the chance to see each other very often So my name is Edouard about the bonnet. I live in France And I have been in the field like most of you for a long time maybe 20 years and Well, I'm a good scientist, but they were also good statistician. And so I did a lot of data analysis through health databases And I wanted to see if for example people who take rapamycin then have lower risks of aging related diseases The trouble is that people who take rapamycin they have cancer also at the same time So it becomes difficult to disentangle the different effects You can do the same with metformin. The trouble is that they they have babies So ideally We should have people who are healthy and take metformin or and take rapamycin and this database does not exist Also at the same time, you know that doing sport is good for you It's difficult to find a database with sport or physical activity and Health because the two fields are not together. So you don't have the database with the same persons You don't know if the ones who have the disease are the ones who do sport or not So, of course, there are lots of epidemiologic studies and I have been in the field for a long time But clearly we don't have this data set to know if it works And so well, I thought maybe we can do it So this is not a new idea. This is very basic and it's also There's another angle to it. A lot of people have been starting to do the famous n equals 1 Experiments it has become famous. So as you know in science You do n equals 5 or 10 You need to have to repeat the experiments that it's true You make statistics and a lot of people have been saying well, that's not completely true because myself n equals 1 for example I'm fine and suddenly I just I touch something very warm a hot and it hurts So, oh, there's something you can repeat it with yourself and and you see oh, yes, it's where it does something, right? and so hopefully the We hope not to see bad effects only but also good effects, which is a bit more difficult to detect certainly So you need biomarkers for that and so a lot of people have started to look at biomarkers So I have combined everything of that together with a Harold who cannot be seen today. So we are Here and I should say about me. So I'm not only in this field of data analysis of health I'm like you life extension advocate When I mean this to me, it's very basic. It's like doing physical activity eating fruits and vegetables Other steps will be to take specific drugs the ones that we mentioned for example Maybe one day gene therapies, but it's not necessarily crazy. It's just like eating fruits and vegetables It's just that we age and there are things to do to counteract this process So we Well, we looked and we knew already At what people are doing when they do their n equals 1 experiment And we assembled everything in a website So in this website, basically, there are questionnaires to know your health conditions There are interventions like physical exercise or like fruits and vegetables or better things And we see There are biomarkers. So we see if over time Before during and after an intervention things improve The reason why we asked for health conditions is that For example, if you have covid You are in a worse state than if you don't right So you can take the supplements, but you need to know that you have covid or not otherwise So you compare apples and bananas I just want to quickly summarize for the viewers I just kind of just met Edward and I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what it is Of life excel and let me know if this is correct Edward So I mean you're doing a lot over there But one of the main things you want to do is you want to democratize and demonetize human clinical trials Because human clinical trials are very expensive And you but you're you're taking an approach It's it's sort of similar to human longevity incorporation But you're taking the approach to where you want to not only treat You'll not only get biomarkers in like, you know different health statistics from healthy people But also unhealthy people And also people taking, you know, healthy or unhealthy people taking these promising jail protectors that can extend people's lifespan To like 150 years old Potentially so and then we will compare them with people So it instead of having some three billion dollar, you know, like clinical trial That, you know, only tests on like 3000 people you could be testing on like a million people And it's like half the price of that Is that true? So Indeed, I'm hoping to have a new sort of clinical trial approach So it happens that with my data analysis, I have developed a drug discovery company We are now starting we have started one year ago Development against Alzheimer's My hope was not to do just development against Alzheimer's but against aging because I thought this compound Is great for many things But together in the existing system, it's almost impossible to do a test against aging So it's against Alzheimer's And it's being done in several phases as you know, as you know, clinical trial phases In very specific centers, you need a very long process until you see the end of the tunnel It's a lot of money It's very bureaucratic Which is all good, but not that good at the same time, of course and so What if we could do the reverse way? Your clinical trial instead of doing it in a specific center You distribute it at home over the over the web Over the internet people will be along with their medical doctors So it's not as if they were alone They are still being supervised And you can rapidly Get a very large number of people who are interested to participate And you you have I would say The people taking the drug before waiting for the approval because it's during the test process So it may look unethical because today we wait for the approval, but Exactly You really don't want to be testing on Alzheimer's only right? You want to be testing on aging? Absolutely. Absolutely. We want to cure aging and we want to treat and present aging So how about for like our beginner viewers, how about everybody kind of like Give a quick like sort of Overview like a quick definition of what life extension is not just on a on a biological level But even on a societal level, you know, I'm sure to naughty and Ben can give a really good definition of a societal level And so how about we all kind of go around and And discuss like, you know, what do we mean by life extension? Like are just some crazy people talking to each other like, oh, we're gonna live to 200 years old or is this really a thing? Is there real actual evidence for this? Does anybody want to start? sure So I will simply say life extension has to mean youthful life extensions So it can't just mean living longer in a frail state because that is by definition impossible It is that frail senescent state that renders one more susceptible to death by means of various diseases So the only way to extend lifespan beyond the current empirical maximum of About 122 years is to reverse biological aging to become more youthful And therefore not experience as much susceptibility to the diseases of old age So that is my view of life extension. It is not invulnerability. It is just being As resistant to disease as a young person is today yes I'll continue that notion with Saying that it is it is true what ghanadi said. It's unclear that we we we will not be able to By a 21st century medical standards be able to If if we will truly be able to live beyond 125 years And so it makes sense to focus on that well span emphasis that he mentioned. I would also say that About two billion of the world's people do not have access to potable water Or sufficient food and actually only about 15 of the world's people Have access to Something like universal health care Even by 20th century standards so that's Building a public health service in all of our respected countries and finding ways to see that that public health service Can ultimately be be retrofitted to serve the needs of a longer lifespan This is that a part of the equation Aubrey de gray is fond recently of saying that He has the researchers the research muscle He has the organizational muscle in the form of business interests But not the organizational muscle in form in the form of other institutions A political or cultural institutions that is a very very big part of that pie And we need to find ways to to grow that grow that share of ours Yeah, just imagine all these specific diseases that could be treated by just tackling aging But instead like, you know, just billions of dollars is targeting specific diseases instead A lot of this being wasted. So that's that's really That's a really good point then Yeah, if I can go next, uh, so, uh life extension, um, you know, you can increase average lifespan You increase maximum lifespan Doctors have been trying to increase average lifespan and they've been doing a pretty good job. You know, we've kind of doubled it Um in last like 100 years, right? Yeah, I think it was like around 40 years old. Um, the last 100 years ago just the average right now It's like 80 around there. Um And uh, depending if you're thinking globally or just the u.s. It's a little different But not much different, but we've actually been increasing morbidity quite a bit. Um, so that's too bad And so what we're working on we're trying to increase health span and lifespan Um, and not just average lifespan. I think it's super important to emphasize increasing maximum lifespan, which is a You know statistical measurement Um, and which, you know, if you look at the life extension studies, a lot of them don't measure maximum lifespan Which is really weird, you know, because uh, it's pretty important Um, but you know, they I guess a lot of researchers don't think so yet Because the only measure average lifespan well the problem with that is, you know You can just look at the um, the capillary curve, right? If you if you see average lifespan increased by a lot, but then maximum lifespan's really increased or sometimes decreased It's like dude, I don't want to take that treatment if it's increasing my health just for a little bit But then it's it's killing me sooner. That's pretty important So hopefully that changes in literature But yeah, everyone, you know to our viewers, this is real science And if you haven't figured it out yet, I mean it's pretty popular already, but um, the science is developing and it's developing very fast And um, you know, we need more help and we need more people passionate and defeating death Um, and yeah, I feel pretty confident that we will defeat all death Over the next like, you know, two to three decades Um, I'm not sure if that's controversial to everyone in here or not I'm sure everybody has their own ideas of uh, when all the deaths would be defeated You know, we're kind of in this conversation. We're focusing on biological death Um, but you know, there's more, you know, you got self driving cars That's going to feed a lot of death get the climate crisis. That's pretty important to defeat Um, yeah, but so we're trying to live for thousands of years. Um, I'm not sure if some people in here are only trying to live for 150 or 200 I'm pretty sure we all want to live to a couple thousand uh, millions billions You know, who knows how long the universe is going to live for Yeah, pushing up to that. Um, pushing up to that 120 years Globally, I I want to I want to agree with what you said there Bobby and throw out another statistic Right now the in the lowest Uh range of the developing world, uh, the average life expectancy is is 61 years And just since the advent of the network world three decades ago That those numbers have come up significantly by I think about 15 years in some cases and so we can expect to see um, moving into this, um Centenarian and super centenarian Range on on on a global scale. It's this uh the timeframe for these things. I do agree with you is collapsing and uh, but uh, a lot of that is To do not only with uh, the good research that we do like folks in this room But also, uh, how uh, our civilization Sees that these things are best utilized and um, and in many cases they're they're woefully underutilized Yes, indeed. And I will point out. I hope humankind Views this COVID-19 situation as a reason to really ramp up the research to reverse biological aging Given that biological aging is the primary risk factor for Complications and death from COVID-19 Young, healthy people with no underlying conditions tend not to suffer severely from this disease People who are elderly or people who have other Morbidities are at great risk from this disease. So if we cure those underlying conditions, then COVID-19 wouldn't be as much of a risk nearly Yeah, I think the ceo of twitter vowed recently to uh, to spend a billion dollars Fighting COVID-19, you know governments are spending billions of dollars combined like just billions upon billions, right? And like they are just totally missing what we're talking about and it's really horrible Uh, it's actually really difficult to smile at. Um, now that I'm not thinking about it But so hopefully that that uh, people uh, that gets resolved, you know, that's just a complete waste of money And uh, so hopefully they you know, at least give us a piece of the pie. Like come on now. Like this is ridiculous Hmm When you have someone in your family who dies from covid currently, uh, you don't necessarily want to think about other aspects, uh, but it's true that in fact at the same time There are many more grandparents and grandmas who are dying currently from aging than from covid so And not only grandparents and grandmas it depends on what we define in aging, but even i mean parents so Uh, so they it's a tragedy a tragedy every day. Yes Absolutely Steel do you have any thoughts on this that you could express in a minute and a half? I don't think I can do anything longer than a minute and a half. Um, so the original question was uh, the definition of longevity. Yeah, Bobby Yeah, yeah, yeah life extension My definition Yeah, my definition of longevity is pretty simple. You just got to think about it from pretty much all the aspects There's micro macro and everything in between Micro is biology micro is us and and the ecology of the earth and we want to extend that to What the chairman uh, ganates dolerov says as open-ended duration and I like that definition the most because Uh, because it allows for the libertarian aspect of sovereignty It allows for you you can choose how long you want to live for I would like a world where if you if you wanted to live 100 years That's fine with you if you wanted to live a billion years or anywhere in between I don't think any of these arguments of 150 years or 80 years or a thousand years or 10 000 or a billion are completely relevant because uh, because uh You know because like once you hit a certain a certain tipping point Uh, it becomes open-ended anyway So I think it then it becomes up to the individual the individual actor to choose their own lifespan But also if you're talking about longevity, you're also talking about the longevity of ecology You're also looking talking about the longevity of the species You don't want the species to fade out like like an ant's nest or something like that sociological Phenomenon where it over in Over in gorgeous on its own resources and fades out of existence So for me longevity is micro it's macro It's everything in between that and it's the parameters and principles that you layer up in between those Over embodied with individual sovereignty of what you yourself would like and what the extension of every group around you would like That's from yourself to the family unit to the local community to the state To the federal government to the to the world government and to eventually to a government of Earth and Mars and a collection of forums all the way up to galactic governments to make it simple I have been at the board of the international longevity alliance since 2012 so that's uh A community of people who would like to have people live longer and healthier And I have been also very much involved In uh, longevity, which is another community with the same ideals And also before metizela forums. So I think benzion we were quite active there And so, uh, well i'm part of this field too and And so that was for the short presentation for those who are in the us I graduated from UCLA so I have various contacts there and that's where really I was Uh, well, I was already very interested in in in life extension But that's where really I was taught about it and I worked with the nematodes. I made them live longer Uh, I later made a mouse lifespan tests Uh, and of course human lifespan test will take a lot more time And so this is why we need to rely on biomarkers to see if Um, 70 is the new 50 and then 90 is the new 50, etc Wait, um, so I think lejandro, um, didn't uh, uh, introduce himself yet Sure, my name is alejandro de la parra solem. I'm from mexico mexico city. That's from uh, based at the moment And uh, yeah, I'm part of uh I guess the longevity community. I've been part of it, uh I guess about five years ago and you know, I started uh Getting into this uh topic. Of course learning from uh, the grays of uh, doctor op the gray And uh, you know, I'm very fond of what uh Nicola Danilo is also doing You know, I'm so thankful uh, so up in uh, you know I guess getting to know how things uh, of work, uh, it happened to uh Had some time there with uh, by liga and this pirish and uh, abbey roy And at some point, uh, we ended up uh Doing a nonprofit entity in mexico to be able to push these things forward, you know more, uh, I guess economic and uh, you know having more throttle there And then I jumped into the regenerative medicine, uh, seen from the I guess gene therapy thing to the regenerative seen with uh, bio quark with uh, ira pastor and then ended up having this clinical initiative addressing things with uh regenerate which would be the clinical side of of uh, the r and d uh From bioquark with bioquant and so the end I ended up joining in with the world academy of medical sciences uh through professor mark, uh, karendaz and uh, we've been uh, pretty much enthused again with having this mainstream medical science mixed with the innovation and of course with the longevity seen Uh, I've seen so much, uh potential and I guess, uh, my own definition Going back to the question. We're we're asking about You know life extension. What's what's what's in it? Uh for me I guess I see one of the most things one of the most compelling things that I've come to understand is that uh intelligence and specifically as human humans and The empathy the the capacity to do so many great things and also some horrible things, uh You know it ends up being like why should we waste all this potential? I've discovered that the potential in the people is this is something that needs to be, uh, You know protected and uh, you know, I believe that we're all confined to the second law of thermal dynamics So it's it's kind of Entropic everything so I believe that uh, if we can't jump if we can conquer our biology And then go ahead and move to uh, perhaps another substrate such as a, you know, AI that kind of stuff mind uploading You might be able to perhaps slowly reach The end of our galaxy over, you know, the horizon but also perhaps escape this second law of thermal dynamics and it's all about this potential I believe that humans from a very deep sense Have this this this awareness of the potential of what can be, you know, victor frankle Uh, someday was was was saying, uh, if you look at a man Uh, but what he went up looking at him down But if you end up understanding what he could be then you start giving some throttle to to all of that So yeah mainstream medical science and innovation come forward And and and push this out of the french scenario because many of these things are already happening It's not something in a hundred years from now Yeah, we're gonna have to Can I can I just ask you have you ever met pavel illan the party secretary of the united states transomers party? I have not I would recommend you meet him because you're your values and his values are very very similarly aligned You would have a great conversation The lats of course be my honor think you still to get around the second law. We're gonna have to develop synthetic physics But so edward, uh, it's probably a good time now to kind of dive more into the details of life cell dot com life dash excel dot com and uh And so yeah, can you discuss like the past president and uh future of the company? Yeah, let's uh, it's a good time to kind of start diving in more of the details Um, and you know have have everybody kind of give their own A feedback to you and what they think of your company and uh, yes, okay So about the past in the future. I will be quick. Uh, I just uh, I'm taking uh something specific So you may have heard about the major mouse testing program Alejandro, you were organizing the website for it So it was a testing many things in mice. So this is the major human testing program testing many things in humans And so we have a lot of things to test And so if you go to the website, you can make a proposal. So let's see for example Who wants to make a proposal? What would you test on a lifespan? So, I mean or an aging For example nicotinamide, right? And here are you here? Okay, so you're asking uh, what would we propose to test for age? Yes, I'm just making an example. Yes Uh, yeah, um, you know, dr. George church is doing, uh, I think he's doing some great innovation He's combining multiple the gene therapies, you know the different life extension gene therapies Yes, but Let's say today you are at home and you would like to test something Uh, you called your medical doctor or you exchanged with him and uh, you say I would perhaps that form and the metformin Thing would be great. I mean you you also need to have so metformin so, um I'll delete I will delete this from the website because it's better to have something well prepared But some gram of metformin per day Taken during Lunch for example, I don't know Um, so that's what you want to do Uh during uh, one week or two weeks or one month one month And you want to test before uh, some physiological parameters and after also Uh, so for example, you may want to test material stiffness So, you know, uh the most uh common way to To suffer from aging and die is cardiovascular issues We are strongly real reliant on our arteries and so a very basic measure physiologic measure of the good health of our arteries is our central stiffness Yeah So maybe also you want to see inflammation so the inflammation So you will typically measure something called CRP in the blood because that's inflammation, so inflammation is a big component of aging and I don't know you will want to see this is trendy and for good reasons. The Horvath clock, so that's epigenetics, so the dust or the rest of your on your DNA and you want to see if all this improves and so I will call it metformin one month. And so you say this is I call it repurposed medicines because metformin is supposedly prescribed for for for the habits and you suggest. So of course when you do this it's better to do it well and you can contact us. Our email is pretty much everywhere on the website and you can contact me or Harold and we can refine it with you and then it appears on a specific place. Here you have the interventions proposed by visitors. So you have one of them proposed interventions against COVID and here you can say okay I'm interested in this I would like to do it. I choose this okay. So now that I have chosen this you will simply see that you have prepared you have a register for it and we at Life Excel will prepare it because we need to sort things and make sure there are not stupid not dangerous or if they are dangerous at least to list the potential side effects and we need to prepare the questionnaire. Everything is behind the website prepared but we need to assemble them correctly for the intervention and so the goal is that you are not the only one to do the intervention. Anyone can see this intervention and can join as well. So when you do an intervention there are different things it's better if but you don't have to because you made we make some things free and some things people have to pay. For now what I have described is totally free so you can totally share your personal experience freely but sometimes things will take us additional time for example if you want to that people are sure that you are a real person and not doing marketing for pharma and being a fake user or whatever then you can ask for it and you asked you can ask for people who do the intervention to be forced to do it then we take some fee for it just because we will call you and ask you questions and well and validate you and also you can buy things but we sell them at exactly the price that you see anywhere so we are free otherwise I mean to you it says if you were free so for example if you take we say the arterial stiffness so we looked on the web so usually arterial stiffness is measured with a medical doctor it's not very complex necessarily but we found a tool that you put on your finger and that you can reuse as much as you want to measure arterial stiffness at any time and you can share it with your family so there is a price this is the price that you can see anywhere on the web and our way to make money is simply to take fees because we we negotiate with them mass contracts but so for you it's exactly the same price and even if there are promotions you can check this you will receive an email when there is a promotion so yes so it's the same price as if you were buying there you still have the the the the possibility to log in there when you receive the the the materials or the results you are aware of promotions you have everything as if you had voted on the original website but in addition the data is in this website so that we can make statistics with everyone's experience on different interventions so I'm not sure if this was clear we have a bunch of biomarkers and Harold is working on having a lot more biomarkers every day calling different companies to see what's what's better for us and we then make a selection based on whether it's cheap because our goal is not to make things expensive whether it's really a good biomarker so typically arterial stiffness is certainly a very good biomarker if you ask a physiologist and then DNA methylation as you probably all know here is a good biomarker so you have different kinds of clocks of your biological age based on the methylation of your DNA and typically it's not here but we will soon have a replication measure and we have also I don't know where it is that we have an inflammation marker some of these markers you can have them when you have a blood sample and that's perfectly fine we don't ask people to buy anything you can go to your place to have your blood sampled and and you can report manually the results in questionnaires here so this is for the biomarkers and so this is very important because if you take a treatment but you you don't test in fact how do we know if it works and so the goal of this website as we said is to see what works because I have seen for example on longevity but also elsewhere people taking drugs or herbs or doing physical activity for now maybe 20 years and not reporting correctly and in the end we don't know if it works on that it's purely discussions but no science on that strong science yeah so just to kind of see if I understood this right so any one of us can just type in our information and you know whether we're sick or not and we can take our biomarkers to see what our health really is because I mean technically we don't really know what our health is exactly and so you'll be able to analyze that for us and so exactly so this isn't just for sick people like you even want like children to be on here you want like everyone everyone excellent yes because you know your eyes when even when you are five you start to have a small place in your arteries and so it grows as you age but you do have a strong health parameter which is arterial stiffness typically and you may don't feel it because you don't have pain markers pain yes elements in your arteries but in fact you are not necessarily in the health that you believe you are in yeah you know we can be at life excel you can be you know taking people's telomeres you know because people the telomeres decrease faster than other people's you know so you know as a child you want your everyone's telomeres to be measured because by the time you're 30 you might have eight-year-old telomeres you know or maybe you know whatever you want to get your you want to check how much senescence you have you know how many senescence cells you have you want to you want to check how fast your stem cells are decreasing you know like like you know this is like such a perfect company like exactly everything that we are people who are who we are contacting right now so actually here around you i'm sure many of you know people who do such tests so don't hesitate to have them contact us because we are contacting them at the same time but it will go faster and yes totally totally and so again we will make it the same price as what you have it have elsewhere otherwise you will not get to the website in case so it's the same price and in addition when you go here the data will be incorporated so that what you do for you also has a value for the world for humanity and we will make statistics for free so we organize the experiments for free we do the statistics we do a lot of things for free it's not necessarily a giant business in terms of business because we take parts of the cost of things by negotiating contracts but for the end user it's as if it's totally free and so we hope to be big for at least in size for life extension to occur and healthy life extension as we said yeah yeah genotti and ben and steel and i'm sure everyone i'm sure they've all heard of human longevity corporation they all highly support them i'm sure and so yeah i'd really like to hear your guys opinion on life excel does this sound just like so innovative and like i mean it's demonetized too like look how expensive hli is compared to this you know yeah so this is very interesting because it integrates aspects of personalized medicine with statistical data gathering so in the age of so-called big data when we increasingly have more and more information about the fine details of human activity we still need ways to make sense of that information and right now we are at the stage where humankind is essentially trying to find needles and haystacks people are tracking their physical exercise more they're tracking their dietary intake more they're tracking their sleep but how does it all translate into health how does it translate into longevity and life excel is endeavoring to answer those questions more systematically and allow all of this personalized data to essentially be used in a manner analogous to control trials with some scientific rigor associated with them yes so just to give an example i was in insurance for a long time because i wanted to look for secrets of longevity through the insurance data and the trouble is that the most of the data we had was proxies of how how rich you are and so the richer the better okay the younger the better okay in terms of mortality rate for example but really that that's naturally important information and when you look at then healthcare data the trouble as i said is that when you are sick you take a drug and so you have a huge bias and it's impossible or virtually impossible to see the effect of the drugs so and you don't have people taking a lot of things that are very basic i mean you need this data here and so i have spent many years on an existing databases but i didn't have the right data it's just like a clinical trial when you do a clinical trial you decide what people do yeah so here we are not allowed i am not allowed uh life excel to decide people to take medical treatments or medical devices because that's uh that should be done by a medical doctor following a consultation could be done online but i'm not allowed myself so Edward you said you were you were in insurance yes i worked in insurance i was mr big data i've been thinking more about life insurance uh and you know because i was i wanted to sign up to chronics or something and so i was thinking like dang like life extensionists are the perfect life insurance you know customers because you know we might not die so we won't have to get you don't have to you know pay out uh to us i have i was thinking like why don't we start a life insurance company and and only only um take people in who are taking life extension treatments and then bobby insurance is hyper regulated i happen to know quite a bit about this so it is extremely difficult to start an insurance company because you need literally millions of dollars in capital and a lot of compliance overhead and you might be regulated by people like me uh so it is i think worthwhile to think about this realm but uh in terms of actually starting an insurance company it's probably an easier job to persuade existing insurance companies to change their approach here and there because uh one observation that i have and i'm by no means an expert in life insurance my expertise is in property and casualty insurance but my understanding is a lot of life insurers have very generic approaches toward risk of mortality within the population because they rely on the law of large numbers and for the law of large numbers to work you need large numbers you need hundreds of thousands of data points within the population so they look at fairly basic information like age or do you smoke or do you not smoke do you engage in very risky activities like hang gliding or parachuting those kinds of questions are those that life insurers consider and they create these mortality tables based on many years of experience sometimes they'll have mortality tables for a particular year and they'll keep using those tables for many years to come so in the united states sometimes you will still have life insurance products priced based on mortality tables from the early 2000s or beforehand and that's because life insurers want to be conservative so they want to build in a certain implicit margin into their pricing and if the life expectancy before was lower they're okay with using that older mortality table because they get to charge higher premiums now it is very difficult at present for life insurers to get this kind of granular data about a particular health habit that an individual has and this is where a service like life excel could provide some value in making that data more available making the findings better done now i'm not suggesting necessarily sell the data to life insurers what i am what i am saying is if the life insurance industry takes notice of this effort they might initiate their own studies and they might look into these questions to a greater extent and as a result people who engage in healthier habits might get certain discounts that they wouldn't have been eligible for otherwise there is a company that i met the founder of called Health IQ and Health IQ is a startup it's called an insure tech startup in the united states and there are a lot of these insure tech companies and Health IQ's business model is to identify individuals who have exceptional habits of fitness for instance long distance runners people who have certain metrics in various medical tests and they would give these people discounts like up to 40 discounts based on my recollection so that's a promising approach where life insurers might start to seek out these healthier individuals and try to give them lower premiums but this field is still very much in its infancy and insurers are very conservative when it comes to data so they're going to need a lot of data from large segments of the population to be able to make these decisions and hopefully over time the movement will be in that direction of being able to get that data so that is my insight i'd like to put this question to you all just just 48 hours ago the united states surgeon general said that we are in a pearl harbor moment because of this public health crisis on the world on the world stage and while i think that pursuing inroads to market solutions of the kinds that are being described here are always going to be worthwhile we are at a unique moment in history just just yesterday afternoon gennady myself and a friend of life excel paul spiegel were on a call discussing how this this unique moment in history could lead to a life extension initiatives particularly in the in the public sector or public private initiatives and particular to perhaps smaller places adapting their public health services to something that is more life extension oriented i'd like to have a better idea of what kinds of initiatives therein earlier in this call edward and bobby were discussing human trials and scaling up those trials effectively how to have you leverage network effects in this kind of instance i think that we can be doing this in a lot of ways in public health service and also equally importantly to my mind is inspiring public confidence in life extension by having some kind of optics where where people see life extension as something that has now has a national mandate even in the very small place would anyone like to speak to this this idea of a public health service that treats aging as a disease or proposals along these lines yeah i mean that's what the first part to this video was about with the edward was really focusing on was you know he noticed that COVID-19 has a fairly adversarial effect to people who are biologically aged and so we really wanted to let everyone know like look you know this is a popular virus right now and you know tens of thousands of people are being diagnosed so it's like sign up to life excel at life-excel.com so that we can you know we can really help you out with this instead of you know instead of having to wait like so long for the FDA process and you know for our politicians to stop arguing with each other it's like dude like you know we're not messing around here you know we're not you know like Nancy Pelosi you know yelling at Trump trying to prevent you know like funding and stuff whatever like we don't mess around like that like we're trying to live longer and so so we're very serious people so you know sign up to life excel and you know that's really important so in part are there some thoughts you would like to share that you would absolutely want to be heard here yes so one if you know someone with covid today it is great if he comes so he just goes to life excel you just scroll down one page and see how to do it he will have a formula like this it looks horrible but it's quick to to feel for example have you been tested for covid 19 if yes I and one day I do this have you have had symptoms for example yes not able to drink did you take treatments that's very important so for example yes I took proper my scene just and if you put the dose and just this you save along with a few more questions because we need to and these entangle things and so are the more people who have covid they can do this and we will have a view of which treatments work usually of course you could say instead of proper my scene for example or whatever a treatment against the covid potential so that's one covid second I will make small things strawberries so you may think why strawberries that's not great we looked for synthetic drugs and as I was saying we cannot tell people just take a drug you need to be a medical doctor and it's certainly very important so we looked at synthetic food and there are three main ingredients that are very synthetic there are strawberries cappers and long paper and we looked at the literature and clearly there is very good evidence that strawberries are very good at high amounts typically one kilogram per day so that's too much so we made a prepared this strawberry powder it's a freeze-dried and so it takes a lot less space and strawberries I believe are very good so mice for example who took facetine which is the main synthetic ingredient when they were old their remaining lifespan was extended by 60 percent you don't see this even with rapamycin so I do believe that strawberries are really good it's not just like apples or bananas it's really specific so we have a sort of trial with strawberries and peaches which are believed to be good too based on the literature even though we don't exactly know the chemical details for that and so you either start with strawberries or peaches I would like to say this because I think this is the beginning of life extension for all you don't usually take the necessary the good dose of peaches or strawberries to have the effects so it's really something specific and we will measure it and so if you want to do something that is considered not dangerous because it's fruits you should do this I think and it's likely based on the existing literature to have a much stronger effect than any other nutrients yeah yeah so I would like to say this and we will soon have but not now something to buy can there your your last desktop you know we went through a lot of products before choosing which one we will we will present because we don't want to have a long list of things otherwise it's not useful we want to really select them and so this this I think is useful we are testing it right now and it gives your motivation to buy in order to have your computer up and running and we have another one where that we believe so we have exchanged this with a great board we have a where's the ball here so you will see the ball is quite impressive we have O'Brien de Grey you certainly know him Brian Kennedy you certainly know him for the head of the Buck Institute Josh Michelle Dorff you certainly know him he's doing things that are very much aligned with Life itself Paul Spiegel you've just talked about him James Q. Watson a medical doctor who is also biologist and Nikolai Kroshkov who is also life extensionist in the pharmaceutical development world so yeah so I just wanted to say that I believe that if we are able to have the communities come this could be the life extension for real now and even perhaps before the end of covid I hope if people start to take for example this strawberry powder we may have a effect soon quite rapidly yeah yeah this is really great yeah thank you edward for this overview of life excel we hope that a lot of our viewers will check out the site and participate in the data collection and the experiments and avail themselves of the products you have to offer yeah just so real quick I wanted to say this you can not only you can give your human data you know but you can also like for example I have about around 50 acres of farmland right now and I'm about to start begin my experiments on plants and animals I want to collect a massive amount of animal data and so what edward is doing is much more important though you know we you know mice aren't humans you know everybody knows dogs are not humans and so it's really important that what life excel.com is doing because they are going to have human data right and we're going to be able to apply neural nets to this data and so we're going to actually know how the drugs work on your body we're not going to have to risk safety by doing animal models. It's a really beautiful method for human trials and it's I mean it's medicine right that's a future medicine but so what I'm going to do in the meantime and just to kind of get views and stuff my youtube studio will be terrariums and aquariums in the shape of chairs and the table and I will be feeding them my you know trade secrets and patented life extension formulas on different combinations I have and because I've been doing research on this for a while finding them and so I'm going to be testing them on different species organisms vertebrates and invertebrates I'm going to be testing them on farms different plants and animals because there's just so much potential and so you know imagine if we had all this data you know spanning from animals plants all the way to humans and then we apply neural nets you know similar to what in silicon medicine is doing and we find safe in the medics we find you know interesting findings and whatever you know I just feel like that's just going to be such an incredible journey that we're all going to share together. So there are starts to be quite a lot of data on animal life extension so who here has not heard about the MMTP major mouse testing program? I actually donated to it back when it was doing its crowdfunding campaign. So there will be a very soon well maybe I can already announce to you the experiment has started but just that's just a few days ago it took them a few years to get the adequate authorizations and also to make in vitro experiments to better decide what those is of combinations of synolytics they should use. Yeah so we are going to make another announcement very soon. So in fact there's someone in the board Josh Mitterdorf with whom I have much exchanged and we would like to test well here I cannot be everywhere at the same time of course to test in mice different doses and so typically instead of doing group A group B you take for example a small dose of rapamycin a bit bigger dose of rapamycin etc and you change the dose for example per cage and so instead of having where there are group A lives longer than group B you have a sort of continuation so you can regress y equals f of x you know you can regress the optimal the dose response of rapamycin on a life extension right so this is the kind of things that can be done in humans and then in animals with not only lifespan but also with the same type of health parameters so personally I do think that animal models are useful for us of course we are not big mice that's true but still I believe that there are a lot of things that that can make us live longer and that can make mice longer that are not the way nature has found us to make us live longer than mice I'm not sure if I am clear but there are many ways to make animals live longer than just one or two so nature finds some of them but there are so many more obviously when empirically we see that so many things work that probably when you try something in mice and it works it's quite unlikely on average that the human body has already invented this so that's my view of the whole I have been interested in this for 20 years so if I have a view of course so just to say I am personally very interested in that and even though right now because it's humans first I'm doing a life itself for humans if I can at the same time incorporate animal data and use the same markers and animals I think that's really great because you can do more things in animals than in humans I mean you don't want to test something dangerous on you and maybe in animals you can be a bit more accept a bit more maybe not because the difficulty is animal activists and but I respect them they have strong beliefs and that's great but I still believe in people more than I mean I'm a human so yeah yeah yeah I am not the animal rights activist you know like our treatments are not dangerous you know they're really safe you know obviously if he does them you know at a high percentage yes that's true if you talk about what we are going to test in humans but for example if you want to gene therapy it's probably better to start with mice than with people directly you know just in case yes I also think it's really important to change some of the experimental protocols involving animals and Bobby you and I discussed this with Dr. Bill Andrews before how it's a travesty that at the end of an experiment with mice if you have any surviving mice often the default protocol has been to euthanize them but really the most important data would come after the end of that experimental time window because if you're testing for longevity you want to keep the mice alive for as long as they're going to live in order to see whether these interventions not only correct whatever health conditions these mice might have had but actually extend their maximum lifespan and that has to do with my point about maximum life extension like scientists do not want to test maximum life extension when really it's like dude it's just a simple test like and a lot of times they'll let the mice live as long as they do you know or until they like you know are pretty much dead and they still just don't make the measurements it's a simple calculation and it's like yeah man we really got to start measuring maximum life extension you know the toxicity centers for mice so for example in the US there is a but there is a big toxicity center and they make a lot of results public and so for example they have a result with the methylene blue where you they killed the mice at the age of two so there are some good reasons for that they want to see what's inside but still they don't have to kill all the mice and so you do see their survival which is much better on their methylene blue than without methylene blue and so you wonder what if they didn't kill the mice you know and the trouble is that the pharma industry wasn't interested in aged persons a few decades ago and it takes a lot of time to adapt to the change of populations so I think it will come because now they start to be interested in aged persons and so they should look at aged animals as well yeah yeah imagine like once this is mainstream like once life extension mainstream imagine how efficient we could be like we have the infrastructure right like imagine once people start like oh we can test maximum lifespan now like so easily or we there is a mainstreaming effect that derives from a similar conversation a lot of people activists and researchers in this field think that life extension for your dog as a service would be the thing that will popularize life extension for human yes is that something that we would have the time to discuss at any like I would love to work with there's someone doing the aging dot project so giving rapamycin it's not George Church it's uh yeah the dog eating environment in new york I think he's nearby and so yes and we could put this data it could be in the same life excel website I mean it's just yeah they wanted me to interview them with a way to measure health in dogs and people so we could totally have that uh Edward they uh they wanted me to interview them soon to discuss the dog aging project and so when I get that interview I'll invite you on uh Matt Cabelline I think the researcher that that's that's that's the name I pulled it up well when when you ask uh Daniel Promise Law Matt Cabelline Kate Creabee excellent yeah yeah it's true that when you see your dog eating food to live longer you want to eat that food too right so yes I think there needs to be a lot more focus on maximum lifespans of animals in general and I believe to be humane if an animal survives an experiment that animal has earned the right to live out its days for however long uh that life is going to be I wouldn't even be averse personally to releasing these experimental mice into the wild unless you want to figure out how long they're going to live but if the experiment is concluded and these mice have had some beneficial genetic modifications then if the researchers can't support them why not at least give them a chance out in the wild but I'm the sort of person who has rescued mice who have gotten into my house and carried them out of the house so that uh they don't have to lose their lives just because they ended up in the wrong place so I do think seeing them breed and you see like 30 year old mice everywhere well the naked mole rats are already living to 30 plus but 30 is just the maximum lifespan observed in naked mole rats scientists really don't they don't age there's an upper limit to their lifespans because they just haven't studied them for long enough to be able to discern that and this is where I really think a lot more investigation needs to be done into how long various species live some scientists should dedicate themselves to just tracking the longevity of particular species very closely and giving them the optimal environments in which they could live so these are very humane animal trials these are animal trials that are good for the animal by definition I wouldn't put them in the wild because if they have a genetic modification you may have a unwilled side effects I don't know resistance to antibiotics biotics or whatever that spread through genetics just just in case but that's a specific case but yes killing animals I was in the lab and I was working with mice and killing the animals after an experiment that's just totally inhuman the life expectancy of various kinds of rats ranges from what about one to three years and we've already demonstrated in of course this conversation is well understood from medical literature that mice are able to live four times their life expectancy even if you remove some of the things that are a little more involved for talking about pets you could still already be demonstrating a pet that lives a preternaturally long time by the standards of the pet owners I should think and that's that's the most if there's a takeaway in this conversation I would imagine that might be one of them that that people could have pets that live a lot longer than the pets that they already have the idea of what is the thing that sparks a fervent public interest in life extension is in no in no sense a settled question I think in any of our minds but this this is regarded as on that list yes and pets of course are a population where it will be fairly easy to observe major increases in lifespan and even now there are major discrepancies in lifespan say between feral cats which live on average about two to three years and house cats where if you have a completely indoor cat it's not uncommon for that cat to live to 20 plus years and indeed the oldest recorded cat lifespan was 39 which suggests that if cats received the same standard of medical care that humans receive where the priority is always to try to cure them no matter what no matter how much it costs I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of house cats started to live into their 30s again this is a population where there just hasn't been enough effort made into assuring their longevity but imagine if those priorities shift and imagine if people perceive this sense of possibility that we can make our beloved pets live a lot longer and if we can do that to pets why not to people I want I want a hundred-year-old cat yeah as do I at the top of at the top of this call I was looking at some statistics about about a life extension in different countries and you know so there are our countries that you know like Singapore that have a right-leaning government that have outcomes for life longer lifespans on par with anything in the world but the thing that the thing that does separate the countries that have this from the ones that that do not is political and economic stability and and some kind of reasonable this distribution of the income equality they're in and this is to some degree this question of of spending a good deal of money to have a thousand-year-old cat is an interesting one as a as some as some a political theater on behalf of life extension but I would call back what I said man being the measure of all things is very much in my mind too and I want I just as I would I think that perhaps Peter Thiel might be able to have reached longevity escape velocity now I would really rather Peter Thiel and everyone pulled their resources to see that that happened for everyone as soon as possible and I don't know how to convince anyone to do that or what that actually looks like but um anyway my my two cents on the uh on the on the universe speaking of Peter Thiel I uh I was going to interview his um one of the scientists at Ambrosia that company that where he was getting the you know the infusions the parbiosis he was getting yeah uh and so um and so hopefully I can get a hold of Peter Thiel himself through that um because you know that'd be really great to get him on board with uh life-excel.com and the transhumanist party uh because you know he seems to be pretty passionate about um defeating aging also. Now on the subject of parbiosis I'm a bit of a skeptic of parbiosis because it seems what happens when you link an older organism to a younger organism is that the older organism benefits from the a better shape of the younger organism so the younger organism uh more. Well Peter Thiel is not putting his blood inside the kid that they have um right uh I think they have he has like a younger kid um like not too young but uh yeah I don't think they're putting Peter's blood in the kid. No no no I don't I don't mean to say that Peter Thiel is doing anything unethical it's just in the experiments with mice where they connected the mice and their circulatory systems it's the uh more robust circulatory system of the younger mouse that supported the older mouse so but it's because they were linked not because there was blood in the younger mouse. Peter Thiel gets surgically connected to the kid uh so you know the thing with the problem with ambrosia and like you know injecting people's younger blood into older people is there's a lot of things in blood you know and there's a lot of toxins in blood yeah and we don't really know how healthy people are like a kid could look the healthiest any kid looks you know you can do every test we have to date on any kid and they could look so healthy but still look we really don't know what's happening and uh it you know we really don't know so uh so you don't want to be injecting people's blood into other people for the sake of health okay you want to be extracting what parts of the blood keep evolving for example mesochemal stem cells you can go to the Panama stem cell institute get IV mesochemal stem cells and then you can give us your biomarkers at life-xl.com that's a promising life insurance treatment um and so you know that's really the approach you want to take you know like what you're not even saying like there's some problems with injecting blood in the people speaking uh speaking of trying on more speculative uh biomedical things for size um you you know and uh and have have some insights into the workings of Dr. Sergio Canavero Bobby um the uh body transplantation um uh as uh would be surgeon and this is another one of those biomarkers from somebody Edward who had a head transplant this is another one of those things on the list of things that has piqued public interest uh to some degree in a life extension discussion and um it it also is arguably uh verging on uh junk science but this this gentleman and others uh may be with uh more uh more letters behind their names I have said that uh for some for some amount of 400 a million dollars they could demonstrate this um uh this process uh today um not perfectly but um uh this uh this is something that I I think should be of interest uh to people uh trying to bridge the gap uh between um uh what uh uh yeah I'm not too in uh the head before we go there Edward has something to show us and I know what this is but go ahead and explain it so actually I worked in a lab and I did uh not only work on nematodes but also mice and rats and people and the way we age in terms of cardiopulmonary aspects uh and I was doing surgery with surgeons on the on on rats uh uh pulling the heart out of the chest and uh did lots of things so I knew this quite the field quite well and when there was all these discussions about young blood old blood parabiosis I went to see uh everyone uh by email uh to to do an experiment and everyone was telling me now that's too complex and I ended up in Ukraine with Irina Pichel who at that time was one of the like like the convoys in California she was one of the top ones in the in the field and we did an experiment together so I went there and I contributed quite a lot uh to uh inject young blood or plasma of young mice uh quite high quantity actually uh to um uh old mice uh so the people there were extremely trained in terms of manual techniques to do it well um and uh we did a mouse like span tests and even though uh there are many uh short duration good effects uh over time you just see the same life span exactly whether uh you injected saline so nothing special or uh young plasma so it's a bit strange and then once this was published we were contacted by ambrosis and uh alcahes because they didn't want to believe the result which I understand uh so we said well maybe there is something special but we don't know what uh and we hope it works in humans for Alzheimer's or whatever but in the mice we did the best we could if you go to a PubMed and you put my name for example you you will see it so and before doing this uh because I have spent a lot of time with them they had done a lifespan test in parabiosis uh so young mice and young mice uh young mice and old mice old mice and old mice etc uh the trouble is that it's a big intervention and there are some deaths when during the intervention you know it's like a covid uh if you get out of it it's okay but during some time you have a sickle and so it was really not that obvious um in fact there are the sickles and then there is something else which is that the two mice when they are connected to each other uh they don't like that so you have to make sure that they don't kill themselves just by trying to separate themselves um uh so it's it's a difficult experiment to do so that's why we did this and I don't think we can do anything better with rats or mice uh so I think the final word word is probably this one and alka has tested a lot of things and the only way they found uh to extend lifespan was to inject human umbilical cord uh blood in aged mice which is rather strange actually because humans are different species exactly uh so you see uh it's uh it's if you have to go that far it's probably not the effect of young versus old but more human versus mouse I've seen a lot of uh xeno sort of you know experiments like this where they inject you know human stem cells or they'll inject human blood or they'll inject you know whatever it's something from a human into like a mouse um and there's like incredible health benefits and you think there would be some sort of like you know uh immune response you know it's like you know don't stop putting this other animal into me but uh it actually has really improved the animals um and so yeah that's it's really interesting this xeno uh sort of field well sometimes humans have received pig organs for instance in organ transplants and uh sometimes the immune system has accepted them which is interesting it is worthwhile to think about uh to what extent we are similar enough to other animals to be able to benefit from research or even parts in this case or genes with genetic so um so I just kind of thought of something real quick about life-xxl.com and how freaking amazing it's going to be so okay think of all the innovation right I mean it's really just going to super accelerate everything so think about all the all the innovation that's occurring right like for example Martin Rothblatt and uh George Church they are um really trying to genetically engineer pigs so that we can uh put their organs into humans right and they're getting really close uh and they're doing a really great job right and so imagine people who start getting pig organs right or or 3D bowel printed organs right that are human organs so people you know in case you have a problem with pigs being used uh you know we're going to eventually be able to 3D bowel print imagine we're getting their bowel markers okay and we can we can in real time keep keep you know this data going and see these like differences and stuff like oh my god that'd be so incredible well that will be so incredible to be able to see that and this see you do that Edward you know just you know imagine somebody gets this uh you know these transplants and then and they're they're signed up with live.xlxl.com like imagine that data like that's incredible real-time data too like we're not waiting for the FDA process whatever like man it's really that's really amazing let us move toward concluding thoughts from each of us so if there's anything else that any of you wanted to address now is the time anybody want to go first so I would be happy to have advice or tips to have live.xlxl work I'm not a big starter per I'm more scientist and I think we need both here so I'm happy to have a yeah help well we really appreciate having you here for this discussion and presenting all of the features that you've already placed into live.xlxl and the other features that you plan to deploy in the future I think this is a very promising platform hopefully a lot of people will contribute their data to it and pursue various experiments that will not only enhance their health but also enhance the public's knowledge in a systematic way of the effects of a lot of these interventions thank you thank you um anybody else have concluding thoughts well we we have discussed a few different things of a more speculative nature of a more controversial nature and also things that affect all manner of public relations or potential regulatory concerns around emerging biomedicine I'm inclined to think that we should always be trying to to get attention for these things so long as they don't present a literal existential risk so you mentioned Martin Rothblatt's company which is doing a good job of making these pig organs you can imagine a scenario where where there's some pushback to these kinds of things we're not necessarily we maybe we're moving past that to some degree but I think that if this community is willing to try to raise awareness for things like body transplantation or like even some less less literal life extension stunts and less costly life extension stunts that I've proposed for our organization if you're if you're willing to take that sort of political theater and extreme marketing's position I think we can do an awful lot more to move the needle in the direction of people because people will tend to have fear-based responses but we don't live in a world of a lot of really provincial personalities we live in a connected world where people are able to evaluate new ideas pretty quickly and I think that we should capitalize on that by by using these kinds of publicity stunts to our advantage yeah um yeah I guess my complete thoughts well maybe to also respond to Ben is you know yeah I feel like a lot of people will be against these kind of like things like you know xenotransplantation where you're taking pig organs and stuff and it's like okay well what can you do to prevent all this animal atrocities occurring you know well one thing you do is you can support 3d bioprinting another thing you can do is you can support life.xfl.com right because we we literally are helping scientists transition off of animal science and on to human science you know like you know obviously this is still still going to be animal testing but we could really decrease that by a lot if we have a massive amount of data from humans because now we have human data we can do we're doing the test on the humans and so so that's really beautiful but uh yeah uh for concluding thoughts um you know I'm just so excited to see uh life.xfl.com progress and there's just so much potential and yeah I really look forward to helping Edward and you know our species defeat death. Excellent. Steele do you have any concluding thoughts? Hey everybody yeah no I I don't really have any concluding thoughts I think everybody added uh valiantly I added come on the show with let's talk more about uh let's talk more about your processes but yes in general this is fascinating and uplifting animals uh you know general life extension of animals and studies of animals has ethical concerns and I I agree with Bobby I would like a shift a more of a shift to human observation uh human category you know human data I think I think human data is is more important for the life extension people I think society I think we've got all we need most mostly what we need out of the animals anyway the closest being the primates the the monkeys the chimpanzees and those guys so um yeah okay but in general yes we do need to get more human data yeah that brings in a whole bunch of ethical issues and status issues on laws and conventions and human rights and all that but the best the most equitable the the easiest way to get that data out is is by getting people to give over that data and to give over that data usually you denote that to contract law contract law when people sign away their data in terms of contracts uh it's it's quite easy to do so you know think about it in that respect um fantastic and yeah and and and you know there's this life-changing societal paradigm shift which the chairman had announced uh in one of his in one of the there's one of these paradigm shifting um policies in the USDP COVID-19 result you know uh COVID-19 uh policies that chairman announced and that's you know kind of like this folded idea you know this this app idea where people innovate and they give away their time essentially for the monetary return which can create a new structural income for people in order to generate solutions uh and and you can play this idea out on on a database as well on on data on data retention and on data um conservation and data um harvesting as well so um you know if if you want to invent a fun exciting casino-like way in order to encourage people to give away their medical uh or or other data um on their social or behavioral techniques and and behaviors um sure then then do that in exchange for some sort of fiat currency or or cryptocurrency or something like that and I think I think that's a way you can extract uh not just a small participant where you're talking about volunteers who sign up for something and they get in exchange of ten fifteen thousand dollar return you're talking about a mass societal change uh which can impact entire entire nation states who need currency or uh first of all people who need currency as well and this changes the whole paradigm of of society that's all I have to say thank you very much yes thank you steel and thank you everyone for your thoughts thank you edward for your presentation this has been excellent and hopefully we will continue this discussion in other venues and in the meantime live long and prosper