 Okay, so G, where did you grow up and please tell us about your family right now? Well, I grew up in Arizona. I was, I'm actually registered with the Apache Reservation in the northeast of Arizona, but my grandfather left the reservation for me, he said, which could have been about 12, 13, and established an encampment at the base of the Bradshaw Mountains, which is out by a area called Lake Pleasant. And we had army tents. When I was born, we were living in surplus army tents that were kind of patched. And my grandfather would take, there were people who would pay from all over the world to see my grandfather, and he would take the archaeologists out into the desert for the different days. And hence I wanted to be an archaeologist to be there. And so that's where I started. And I didn't start school until I was almost eight. And I wrote, we used to ride a horse, but we had to call our watering because Arizona was no water. We were anywhere near the lake getting out. And so we would ride a horse back and leave our horses in the ground, and my grandfather had an old panel truck. Back then they were called woods, and a holder thing. We just meant they had wood panels all the way up and down the sides. And we would drive into a little town called Whitman, which if you blink it was gone, and get our water and haul it back out. And then my grandmother would hitch the horses to a cart and drag the water in those, those 55 gallon oil drones. Anybody remember seeing those? Okay, so that's what they were. And we kept our water in there. And we sold shit. I've been an artist my whole life because we sold shit on the roadside. We were the Indians with a blanket thrown out on the roadside. That was us. Okay, guys. Okay, David, I'm going to direct the same questions for you. Where did you go up and please tell us about your family growing up. Okay, I grew up in Philadelphia, East Coast Boy. We were online with people from the Philadelphia area. Basically, just type of side. A little town called Ten Valley. Then moved over to, well, actually early years, my father was in the Navy, so we moved around a lot of California, Puerto Rico and other places. And then finally settled back in Philadelphia, a little bit of time in New Jersey. And I had pretty much a standard growing up middle-class existence. Then off to college, North Carolina State. The United States worked for me at the Academy, so I don't have quite the adventures of growing up to you guys. Your legacy? Yeah. What do you got here? You were lucky. Lush toilets? Well, we had to spill colds. But I got two paintings on the outhouse. Well, Judy, when we spoke earlier, you told me that you were raised to be a clan leader. Please tell us about that. Well, in my nation, the women are the leaders of the family. And it makes sense because the women have the babies and take care of the homes. And even with us, it's that. But the women also make all the decisions concerning the family. The women own all the possessions of the family. And that way, the family stays stable. Where was I? I do this all the time. I'm so sorry. Ron, you know. We were asking how you were raised to be a clan leader. Okay. And because the women are the clan leaders, in my family, it's the oldest woman. It's the oldest daughter of the oldest daughter. And in my family, particularly, so the oldest daughter means the first daughter born in each generation. And there can be older members of the clan, older women in the clan, that are not clan leaders because they are not first daughters of the first daughter. In my family, my daughter was the first one to break the tradition and have a son first before she had a daughter. But then she had a daughter, so it's still in my direct line. My great, great, great, great grandmother's direct line. And so what you do is you make the decisions for the family. Well, my grandmother, who was a clan leader, I was in law school. My grandmother got a ticket, like midnight. Indians like to do things at night, I think. Because we're all kind of night people. And I think it was because she had a wife, and so she would write at night, but she would take off and do stuff at night. And I get a call at 2 in the morning, and she's at the jailhouse in Glendale. And I have to come and take care of things, but she got a ticket. But she's telling me what happened and it wasn't her fault. I said, Grandma, why didn't you call Judge Meyers? He's a good friend. He would take care of everything. He was the biggest judge out there. He could have just put the phone call and leave her alone, basically. But no, she didn't call me because I didn't train him to be a clan leader. It's my job to handle this. Like, if one of the boys get in trouble, and it was usually the boys that got in trouble, or somebody in the family was sick, or someone passes, then it's my job to take care of the situation and make things work. So that's what clan leader means. Wow. Okay. So David, what work were you doing in the 70s? Well, in the 70s I started out, first of all, graduating in the next year's Marine Academy. I had a military background. And a Marine background. So I was basically the sailor of my third generation. I started out working for the Fourth Authority of New Jersey Marine Terminals. So I was there, actually, in a building, the World Trade Center buildings. We got to go up there and visit with them and hang around. Kind of fun, 104th floor, hanging out the window, no glass. That was kind of fun. So I lasted for a while there, and then I got some work with that. And in 1973, some friends lined up together and said, we wanted an invention. And drilling companies were looking for people with marine backgrounds because they were going to sell the pedal, yadda, yadda, yadda, in regards to the U.S. coast guard. So we had to decide that we, three college training kids, would go off and join the oil business. So off we went to Halifax, Middle East Ocean. I put a vice up there. Of course, first jobs they give you are the real brunch jobs, the real shit job. We were, the lowest position on the roof was a pinkish brouse, which doesn't exist anymore. We were maintenance brouse about trainees. So when anybody needed to clean out angle winches or scrape shit off of walls and stuff, that's what we got. Needless to say, three graduates from college were not of use. Most of the people out there were the oil business people who just barely followed high school graduates. And of the three friends that joined, I stayed. So the 70s, when you come to Halifax, took a break over to England, came back up to St. John, Newfoundland, then back over to England, working off-shore in great positions, worked my way all the way to the park and asked her, how does that go? He carries the green part. And then from there, he decided to come back and sort of semi-came out, found a lover in Philadelphia and moved back to the states from Britain. And was pretty happy there until all of a sudden the summer of 1977, when we were in San Francisco. Moved out to build a rig in Belial. And essentially, from that point, through the rest of the 70s, I commuted through San Francisco back to places like Angola and Gabon in Africa, working hard acts, boots, oil men, drilling grates. Yeah. And it was the same. When you got up, you were more than ready to hit the streets of San Francisco. So Judy, how did your grandmother teach you to fight injustice and unfairness? Well, most of that was in many decisions for the family. Well, I'm going to give an example of one of the things I thought was a really smart thing. And I've never forgotten it. The women have a women's council to make the decisions for the family. And there would be little fights among the aunties. You know, they would all like it into it and there would be stuff. And nobody would make a decision because nobody would agree with this auntie because this one was mad at that one and this one over here liked that one. It was like any political situation anywhere. And so my grandmother decided she was sick and tired of all the fighting. She could not handle this anymore that some of the decisions we were not making were good decisions that needed to be made. And so she made belly-high masks and put there a, it's like a read. It's a little mouth that has a read in it so that it distorts the voice. And we all had the exact same road. So you had to put on the mask and everybody was sure it was me. I was the only one that couldn't hide it. They all knew it was me. My mother was 4'11". My grandmother was 5' feet. And most of the aunties were right around 5' feet. So, and we had my 6' feet at 10' was enough. So it changed the way I kind of looked at things because watching the interaction between my aunties and my grandmother with nobody knowing who was making the suggestions the decisions were made because they were good. And that's what she said. People will decide that the idea is a good idea or a bad idea because of the idea, not who presents the idea. So that was one of the things I learned from her. The other thing was I had two aunties that were just a little older than me. They were in their teens and they were supposed to take care of me. But again, from my birth I was taught to make decisions. And so watching my grandmother deal with that sense of fairness and my grandfather truly hated the white government. Truly hated. And had reason to because a good portion of this village and a good portion of my family on my grandmother's side don't exist anymore because the federal government offered $100 ahead for adult Apache scouts and had $50 ahead for children or their scouts. Nobody knew whether it was Apache or not because her hair was all, the dark hair was all the same. So we just weren't the ones they were supposed to be doing it to, according to the government. And so my whole family on that side is gone. My grandfather was one of the three people from that encampment that survived. But my grandmother felt that wasn't a fair thing. You couldn't hold everyone responsible for that. And she taught me that I was going to need to go, I was going to have to live in this world. I was going to have to deal with people of all nations and all colors. And so I had to learn to deal with people on their own there. You know, it depends on the person. You know, it's just like when you're going to play. You can't say, okay, my, you know, this is my type, absolutely this. Well, I used to say that when I was young. You don't have a type, I realize that. It just depends on the person. And the feeling that you get when you're with them. So, you know, I learned that from her very quickly. And she reinforced it throughout my life. So that's, and I've been fighting my whole life. Of course, you've heard a lot of them. But I literally have been fighting all of my life. We'll get to some of that. Some of it's absolutely fascinating in a few minutes. But David, how did you become involved in the leather community? Well, I had a rare experience of two when I was living in Britain. But I really didn't find out about what, in fact, Philadelphia. And at the time, I was living kind of a boring, gay existence in Serbia, but we did go into Philadelphia and there were a couple of number of bars in the area. Two, four, seven, but one of my favorites in that space was called Selva. And I was always an adventurist. The end of the boring events was a private men's club. That was one way to get around a lot of restrictions. That's why it was a private. But you go into this place, up the stairs, the bar on the left, and there was a big rail of the bar, gently set up so you could get through the clothes over it when they arrived. Of course, in the back rooms. There was a lot of restraints and everything, which was all kind of laid. But I kind of figured that there was something with this when I walked in one night, an air next to the bar was a sling. Literally parallel to it. A gentleman's in the sling totally making separately parallel to the horse. He's got a hand up his ass. He's got a martini in the other. Always let him stand around, at least check away and never miss filling a drop. I'm light in his style. That's my whole idea of the goddess of light. So that was my first taste until I came to San Francisco. Oh, I couldn't imagine. It was fun. Okay, back to Judy. Judy, you married very young. Why did you marry so young? How many children did you have? I'm going to have to tell you that story. Well, first of all, in fact, when you get married, you have babies because there are genocides. You know, if you get married, you have babies. That's cool. I came out in 1959. Actually, I was out at 58, but I didn't have any girlfriends. And I was passing as a young male. And in Phoenix, I was living on the street with my best friend, Mary. And anyhow, there was a gay man who felt sorry for us and wanted to get us off the streets and took us in. I knew I was a girl. Actually, who immediately? I was a girl. But I was passing in for it. Back then, I probably weighed 90 pounds and it was $60. I was a stick. My grandmother said I could hide behind this wall. But anyhow, I took us in and intended that we would go to the spot. Well, Larry was 23 or 24. I think he was 24. And I was 13. So I was going to school by then. I was almost 14 then. And he would make me go to school. Well, I decided I'd make my go to school. I wanted to do that. And I would never live at home because my stepmother was kind of violent. And so I would always take off. And so the state team turned me incorrigible. And I was sent to live. I'm still incorrigible. And I could take that more than once. I could call that. I could call worse. I could take incorrigible. And I was sent to a residential Catholic girl school. I was there for three years. They didn't like me very much. Because I was a lesbian and they thought I might contaminate their poor little girls. And I was stupid back then. I had no idea that most of the men were probably lesbian too. I actually spent nine and a half months in solitary confinement. I was a legend in the school. Nobody ever saw me. But the night I brought my food. Until they made the mistake of the cell next to mine, they put a woman named Laverne McAfee, big pack of Oberam, whipped her down the steel door. And they put me in a basement cell where nobody ever went. And let Laverne out. Anyhow, so my mother found out and threw a fit and came to visit and they had to let Laverne out. Anyhow, so I'm living. And they picked me up again because I had three years to go to school and they caught me out on the streets, the cops basically. And I got my name and then found out that I was an incorrigible juvenile and they were going to send me back to the school. My best friend was also a young guy going and older than me, right, 17, I think. And nobody ever knew how old I was, I was 7, I was 19. And they would believe me if I, they didn't listen to me too much. And her, she had a really good friend and he was a nice looking man, a young guy in his 20s and he just thought I was the hottest thing walking and asked me to marry him and I said yes. Well, to me that was a commitment and so I was married to him for 18 years. I have six children. My, I have 15 grandchildren and two great-grandchildren and actually just had a little, my great-granddaughter was born a month ago. And I have a grandson who was born two months ago that I had to be at the birth of him to be with whatever he was born. So you have your own pride? I do. So what if they don't have to say this is a badge you didn't do or charge. But that's why I ended up marrying young and I married, like I said, for 18 years. And he was a stanker and then he came out of a serious outpouring and I said I can't do this anymore and walked up and I walked right back into my own community. I need you. You're as original as I am. Well, I know what you are. I love you. So David, please tell us a little bit about the Leather Seeds in San Francisco in the 70s. First of all, I arrived in 1977 as I stated that I came out to build a pretty big Vallejo. Vallejo is just a strip tripped down to San Francisco. What just so happened that summer both physically, weather-wise and everything else was probably one of the most magnificent summers they have seen where you could actually wear t-shirts at night. It's all so long, which is very rare. So I arrived on the scene the first night I get there just figuring I'd go in and check it out. A friend of mine told me about this place called Castro. I was visiting street friends at my school. So I thought I'd check it out. Not so good at night. So I thought I'd come back and try it one more time. Well, I came in and I was actually on Polk Street. Now this is before Castro was really kicking in Polk was there. I've been a really nice man. So we ended up really getting it off. We never did. We were around the first afternoon. But he said, listen, I got to go to dinner with friends and let me see if it's all right. We went to go. And I said, yes, I would. So it ended up that we went to dinner over in north, little Italy in the area of San Francisco. And it turned out the people that were there was a guy named Alan Ferguson who eventually opened up your Reno Bar his lover, Mel Bernard, who was Divine's manager and Mr. Marcus. Maybe let's just say that was the start of my trip through leather life in San Francisco. So I went running around with them all the time I could. And we ended up going to places like the ambush. We went to the watering hole. We went to the trees. We went to so many different places. It was unbelievable. And sort of a classic story there was we go in one night and we were sitting there at the ambush. I left their logo up to tell you that sometime. And I'm sort of a wide-eyed kid still, you know, enamored with all of this. And Marcus isn't there talking to Dave. I'm like, well, I better go back where it is because I'm still there. We need to resume their conversation. So, well, me, I go back there and call out on this door. I ask about this. I have never seen so many men in such a small place doing so many things, half of which I've never heard of. I slowly close the door and back to Marcus and say, he says, oh, you've got to kiss and go outside and go against the wall and go back to this conversation. So life took off from there and it was like no old part if you want to do it fine. And I found the community extremely embracing. It was, you know, there was no protocols like this. You were all embraced and had a good time. Of course, you would live with me by those days, but if you wanted to, you could run anything you wanted to and I was great. So it was a wonderful, I consider kind of a golden age. It really was. You mentioned something about a little or a sign just of what we're doing. The bar parts on the ambush was beat me, bite me, fuck me, treat me like the cake that I am. Yes, then get the fuck out. And that's where you can sign your trick card. I thought that was kind of cool. I think I have somewhere in the box there. But that was the days when they were opening their bags everywhere as Marcus told it. There was so many motorcycle clubs with motorcycle and there were bars all over town. Everybody's going to know everybody. There was, I ran into people that ran quarters. I knew Robert Dunne. I knew a drawer magazine, so he was able to introduce me to so many different aspects. The quarters were potentially the places you saw in the drawer magazine where all the dungeon material was going on. We were fighting no on Proposition 6. We were doing The Need of Brian. We had Harvey Milk going on. We just had amazing things going on. It was like, can't stop the music. The village people was going on, the finale, that was my birthday, but she can't tell it was an all-gate event because all the women around the edge said primitive. It was great. There were blind babies in full leather pulling up in old cars and things like that. With the village people I got to hang around the divine at Thelma Houston. They were in Washington. It was like one big party. There were bars for businessmen that were then going into leather at night. There were clubs. There was the boot camp bar. It was about the seven weeks. I can't help it. An idea that just popped into my mind is what's your opinion of the movie Cruisin'? Do you think that was an accurate depiction? That's the albatino. Well, I think it was necessarily the dark side. I mean, I don't think we felt the dark side. I mean, it was built in the dark side. But the other side of this, you've done this and know what you'd like to. And, you know, I can be fisting, be piercing, be whatever you want. We'll go do it, you know, a little scat. But I don't think there was a sense of feeling of danger. It was more an adventure, excitement, fun, sexuality, living for the moment. It was just feeling alive. We felt alive as a human being. I actually got the point towards the end of the 70s. I actually, from going and feeling sort of a sense of, you know, sort of the inferior human being as they were teaching us today, gave people work. By the end of the 70s, I felt superior to straight people. I said, these people cannot be as much fun as we have. And probably weren't. Sorry, it was good. So Judy, please tell us how were you introduced to the gay community and the leather community? Oh, well, we're going to go back to 1959. It's something that was more important then. I told her. The man that took us in, we didn't say leather back then, it wasn't leather. And of course, in Phoenix, nobody wore leather. And, you know, they were on a motorcycle club. Yeah, you had a leather jacket, but we didn't use leather to mean anything other than the jacket you were wearing when you were on your bike. But the man that took me in was what we would now consider a leather man. He was kinky. There was one bar in Phoenix. It was a cowboy bar during the week. One night a week on the weekend. All the kinky guys would go there. Well, I was the kid. I was the kid in the car. Well, part of that was because in his home I had my own space, but I always called him sir always. And I like to tell people I never polished any size 13 boots and high heels in my life. So I can't be a good boot black, but I just don't want to do it anymore. I have a lot of free years. But he did drag sometimes, but that wasn't unusual, but never came to the drag at the same time. Ever, ever, ever, ever. Never went in to the bar and drag ever. But the drag was done as a way of community support. That was what they did. But he was like my dad. And he was really good to Larry, too. Larry was my best friend. He was a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful young gay man. I can't remember if he was 23 or 24 when I met him. And Larry was a little bit retarded and I wasn't. But he was strong and I wasn't. So, huh? He was very hot. And Larry was a prostitute. And he and I lived on the streets. Like I said, I was telling David that we lived behind the dumpsters at the Westburn Hall Hotel, which is a big hotel. It was a really fancy hotel. It was the fanciest one of things back then. And because they had the best food, so we could eat at the dumpsters and have really good stay. I mean, we've got prime rib a lot. And Larry was my protector. But I'm the one that kind of kept us out of trouble. Anyhow, so we got David in. He became a lover, one of the lovers to the man that I called sir. And his name was Stephen. And I'm not going to go into the last name because I don't know where he is now, but anyhow, yeah. But again, Stephen tried to make me go to school. But that was my introduction. Knowing these men, they would play at Stephen's house. Now, I wasn't alone in the play space, but I knew what was going on. I was not a stupid kid. And I got to make things like bring the drinks and the chips and the, you know, I learned to cook there because I used to make a lot of the snacks and things. And I would always keep, I would keep the house clean and go to school and polish goods and go to school. But on the weekends, I could go to the bar. And the rule was, though, that if the bar was rated, they had bar lights then. In Phoenix, it wasn't unusual for the bars to be rated. It actually wasn't unusual after I was an adult and the women's bars for the bar to be rated. But back then, we had bar light. And I asked everybody, if you were doing something you weren't supposed to be doing, don't do it anymore. Stop, right then. There was a back room and I knew about the glory hole. I think every good men's bar had one. And but if that light flashed my job, what I was supposed to do, the bar was one of those where the top flips up, my job was to get under that bar, get out the back door. I go through the kitchen, out the back door and hide in the only androids. There were these huge holy androids, and I would have to hide in the only androids till all the cops had left. And then if there was anybody who said that if it had been around, they would come and get me home. If nobody came and got me, I'd take my way home. But, you know, I was to get. And that was my introduction I didn't reconnect with it and really get into it a lot myself. Well, actually, there were a couple of instances in the girl's school before they locked me in where I had some fun in the girl's bathroom. But one of the most fun with the girl named Lanti Haas, I'll never forget her. But I didn't come back out into leather my secondary time in 1979 where I was playing with the owner of our living space in the apartment and learning a lot of things. Oh, bad. Well, David, I read in the book 25 years of champions about IML's first 25 years that you were very naive when you moved to San Francisco. You were quoted as saying that. How was that the case? I mean, you can understand that a lot of cities kept gay life, excuse me, under wraps. It wasn't really until the big cities like San Francisco where gay life was much more in the open. And a lot of gay people lived a kind of dual lifestyle. You know, lived quiet lives unless you were right in the middle of the ghetto. And so when I arrived in San Francisco, I was eager and traveled around the world. But I didn't have the education or the expertise or any of the experiences that probably may be much more than the null fuck. Okay. But coming to San Francisco was kind of like here is the candy store and I had a kid. So it was a learning curve that went very fast as I said. I walked into San Francisco semi-fiddle and by the time 79 came around I was in hell. And that was being chosen by people because it wasn't by candle judges in San Francisco. It was done by your peters because I knew everybody in the bars. Of course they had very open relationships and had a very good lover at the time so I said, please be home in the morning when I wake up. So I was just a boy who couldn't say no and I found a lot of people willing to teach me a lot of things. And so I know it was a really unique experience but it was getting too dead length with the true experience. Well, Judy, you told me that at one point in your life you went from being a mother on welfare to graduating college with four points. Yeah. Oh my Oh my Oh my Actually, those were hard times for me to talk about but you knew that. Yeah. My ex-husband and there are many reasons he was an ex-boy but I was an uneducated and gay kid, right? I just went to school and managed to get through the eighth grade and by the time I got married it was, you know, I was 15. My ex-husband was an extremely abusive and controlling man. The physical stuff didn't come too much later but the emotional abuse and the control was strong and dare and I was never allowed to really do anything. I was also very uneducated. You know, I just went to the eighth grade. I've never done anything. I painted pictures and I would tell painting months in a while, you know, because I grew up painting pictures and I felt like and my ex-husband was in an accident so he was disabled and we had to go on welfare. Well, it completely dehumanizes. No one realizes how embarrassing it can be. But when you're in that situation and you're not educated you have no way to get out. You don't know anything else so you can't see any way out and I knew there had to be a way out. There had to be something I could do with my life. Something. You know, and I used to tell people when I was doing my political stuff I would tell them it was like being in a dark closet with no doors. You just felt like you would never get out and I was in a very bad way very close to stepping out in front of a bus and I had five children by the time I was 22. So I was, you know, it was really not a good thing. I had options. I had gone to the welfare case worker because everybody had a case worker and told them I needed to do something with my life. And I had five options. I could work on a factory assembly line. I could learn to be a clerk typist. I could be a nurse's aide, a dental assistant. There was one other I can't remember but it was all very mean stuff that would have meant that eventually and because back then there was no paper anything. I would still have to be dealing with food. Well, back when we were going to get food stamps we got commodities. Well, as Indians, we got commodities so I knew about that. Anyhow, I felt like there was no way out for me so I was just done. I walked away that day. I walked to downtown Phoenix. I was standing on the corner of First Street in Washington and thinking about stepping out in front of the next bus. And I turned around and the window behind me was the old Quartz department store and excuse me because again, I said this is really hard for me but I said I will answer anything as truthfully as I can. I turned around and behind me was this huge window. It was an old Quartz department store building. It was a five-story building and the front said earn a great living be a commercial artist. I had been an artist my whole life and that was exactly what I wanted to do. Learn advertising and I had no concept. I knew nothing. I thought, we would drive by Phoenix College and I thought those people are the luckiest people in the world. They have to be rich to go there. Well, I didn't realize I knew nothing about community colleges and this was a community college in the same district, of the same system but of course I didn't know and I decided I had nothing to lose so I walked into the building I said I need to talk to somebody about being an artist and doing a commercial art and the guy on duty, the security guard on duty sent me up to the fifth floor and I met this little redhead named Claire August and she found I was a native artist. There was a huge news sponsored by the native club Planapa at the community college and so then she had me enrolled in classes picked them for me, sent me to the learning center to take my college the entrance test had financial aids for me and everything lined up before I walked out the door. I was I had no idea. I was stunned and so I got home and I told my husband at the time that I was going to college I was going to college I was going to start college in January and he said no you're not you're not going and he told me that I couldn't go because if I did it would mess up his welfare and I could go and through a fit threatened to do some things and I said listen this is the way it is I either start college in January or I walk out this door right now and you are never going to see me again so he he shut him up for a while he left, he was so angry, he left but he came back and he said alright here's the deal he said you're going to go to college and I'm going to stay home and take care of the kids you're going to get straight age you get 1D and you quit I said deal well I started school and I graduated from Arizona State University I graduated from Maricopa Tech municipality of Toronto with my core point of all, I was also president of the student body president of the tribal club I was the district representative for the Maricopa County College District I had won a major award from the Arizona Corporation Commission and the Robert Mining Association of Arizona as the most up and coming young person in the state of Arizona so all of that within two and a half years I started an ombudsman program I started an ombudsman program between the college district and the welfare department because I didn't want anybody else to be in my shoes and it was so funny and you know what was going to happen I went on television and I was talking about it and I said you want to go to school I don't care if it's this if you're poor I don't care if you're on welfare I don't care if you're just getting out of jail I don't care come to the school these two days this weekend and we'll help you get enrolled and there were four other women who had come from very poor backgrounds and got into the college system for various and sundry reasons who were working with me well it ended up so slammed we had over 500 people one through that little college's doors they had to call in everybody they had instructors from all the programs and admissions and financial aid and everything and because of that and because I had a new case worker at the welfare department who was so proud of me he was also an important talk he would come to the college to do my interviews and things so that David wouldn't get pissed off and pitch a bit but he's the one that helped me set up the program so that if any case worker in the welfare department had someone who wanted to go to school all I had to do was call me and I was president of student life so I had an office in the secretary so so they would call me and I would get them in and talk to them and get them registered and like I said I graduated from ASU with a 4.0 and so I had my bachelor's I could have had three of them one in business, one in criminal justice and one in psychology but I picked criminal justice because I was a law school and that's kind of weird that's what happened the rest is history David tell us a little bit about the break bar in San Francisco and the title that took you to I know the break was a great watering pole there's a little change today but in those days as we would have a mass communication you went after work to meet your friends and after work weekends, Saturdays, Sundays so you would go in there and meet and we'd talk about what everyone was talking about so you knew everybody and it basically became the clearest example to be like cheers wherever you go in everybody knows your name and of course as we happen a lot of bars and since I had a lot of time on my hands coming off the rigs I'd be off for a month of the time I'd get to know lots of people but the rig was predominantly my bar there was other arena being along with it later but the rig we essentially pardon we had a good time we'd go out and do whatever around 1979 of course I visited before that Chuck Bringslow sent out a circular to various different bars mentioning that he wanted you to have an international leather contest in Chicago and asking people and representatives well the only bar in San Francisco that responded was the Brick Hank he was a great leather piece for the leather community so of course it was very lucrative at the same time because you'd bring people to the bar in one of these contests now he didn't have just one contest he didn't have what I believed and of course they were talking 30 years ago it was about 8 weeks so every Wednesday night they would bring all of these contests all of these would pile in and be drinking beer and having a good time and all against the wallage you know the rig for a bunch of beer cases all stacked up there so it would sort of stumble up on these beer cases answer questions and do whatever we did and at the end of that evening the audience would quite happen to carry on and the person who got the biggest response would go on and be slayed for a very last week well those weeks is when I won my section and I was quite proud of it because it was a little shy because it was going to be a lot of fun and then the last week came along and of course it was already all the contestants from those 8 weeks all get up there from their pool tables in the middle of the bar you're up there it's a rounding applause hey it's like ok now I'm going to go to the investment and go what does that mean because what doesn't mean we have a couple of horror titles but it was an invention we decided to go with and hang with Jerry's support pay for your hotel pay for your trip and of course you took your own letter boyfriend went along and then you went a couple of friends with new people in Chicago it was more of a family affair and the first contest was I don't know how many hundreds of people it's very it seemed very big looking from a bunch of crepes to a stage to look out for these people but that's how the bridge set us off incredible so Judy tell us about your involvement in the women's community women's well like you said I was kind of brought up to fight what I thought was injustice and I felt it started because I was pissed off I found out that women were doing the same jobs and getting paid less that lesbians were second class citizens that or third or fourth class just so many things that were wrong so I went to a couple of now meetings and I don't even know if now are still around but back then it was and the ERA was trying to be passed and I read it and I lost you and I read the thing and I know how the law works it was pretty frequent straight forward and yet I was reading in the newspapers of course Phoenix is very conservative Tucson is a little smarter but Phoenix is 30-40 years behind the rest of the world and so it still is I still hate Phoenix but I agreed this they would make up and I was like it doesn't say that I was wrong with what it says and so I started getting involved I was a delegate to the first ever conference the Women's International Women's Conference in Houston I was selected by the lesbians and by the black women primarily because they thought I was black and the lesbians could spot me coming to my law and so and I was head of the women's affairs board there was on a state university at that time so I got selected to go to Houston well there had been a slight accident there a little too much alcohol cause I had like not been with my mother for a long time a little too much alcohol and I had shit like that and I normally slept on the couch all of a sudden I cried it and I've been law school and now I'm a delegate to Houston I ended up spending a lot of months in the hospital to have this child I did, she's an amazing child and went to Houston and went into labor on the conference board well I got a lot of press because of that they had to try to find a damn doctor and set up a medical center for me there so it was funny that coming out of that I named my daughter Equal Rights Amendment Levi McCarvey and it's capital E of R-period, capital A-period parentheses Equal Rights Amendment and then Levi McCarvey and my daughter ended up being the national PR of the I ended up being and I had no idea what happened to me then it was just I was asked to speak at a conference in Washington DC so I did and then they had the national ERA march on Washington I was asked to speak now of course you know they never say how many people are there really they never know we said a million they say 500,000 that kind of thing I spoke in a couple of steps there I became so involved but I became involved because of things that were happening that were bored like me Houston I helped write the presentation part it's in a book type of what women want and I helped write the plan or the platform it's called women welfare and poverty and I also helped to write one more women column and it was presented to the president in Washington DC in 1978 but my involvement in the evil rights amendment was because it made sense to me it was really very simple and all this shit got added onto it and then because of the way the women like me were treated with the human rights aid so that's why I became involved like I said I'm not fighting my whole life if it's bullshit I'm going to say it's bullshit and go after it it's how it got into the leather that's why I'm good I've been involved in leather a long time I love playing I do it because it's fun it's fun standing up in front of people you don't know what I'm going to do I'm a lucky guy and this is why we started this place actually the first one was called catharsis the second one was defenders of mithra but there were very few king women these were women who were white just part of the leather they could play and we started the Oregon State Leather Woman Contest it was the highest leather title for women in the country and at that point it was you and that was started in 1982 by 1985 we added Portland Leather Woman and I got to judge that one and I used to bitch what the hell is going on these are leather women's work I'm going to cut it off anyhow I was looking to say 5-2 actually it was just for a second while we changed teams oh sorry thank you for your indulgence you were telling us about Oregon State Leather oh sorry yeah the organization we started in 1984 was called Portland Power Contest and Sasha used to love to say it's not an electric company and it's not a bank but we thought it was a very good name it just sounded so official so PPNT is supposed to totally say it and Sasha and I were considered the leather ones Sasha was my love Sasha was a little Jewish Dyke she was a pharmacist from Brooklyn, New York she said she paid her dudes Sasha was at Stonewall in 1964 she was at the women's park across the street she said she came out and people were throwing stuff and it was all kinds of screaming how it was going to change her life the next night she was out helping throw stuff and so were a lot of other people so I guess that's right, it's been on for a bit I think it went a few days oh it went a few days yeah it was like four or five days but Sasha used to love to tell stories about it so that was my partner and less than two weeks after we became partners I moved for Phoenix Sasha and I met at Michigan in 1981 and I moved from Phoenix to Portland to use Sasha and anyhow less than two weeks after we moved together we found out she had the answers so we spent the next 40 years dealing with her answer I used to, I like to tell people Sasha loved baby Ansel and she was Ansel as much as I was but anyhow we started PP&T what was I doing? I really do I'm on a medication I'm old and it should happen when you go and I use medicine excuse a lot but I am on a medication that has it reads havoc in my memory and so I can remember old stuff and I'm talking I lose a thread and I can't unless I was a kid I can't get back I'm apologizing for this they know me in Dallas remember he noted in Dallas one year and I could say where was I the whole audience would tell me I was like okay and then I came back where were we we were just talking about I became involved with it and the leather and the difficulties you had because these weren't really leather women oh that was a though I was always bitching and we had two big leather dykes from Seattle Lamar Van Dyke and J.C. Collins and Lamar Manfake yeah Lamar you know Lamar? oh that big mistake of the Van Dykes they drove around the country and in there and she was telling me in there anyhow Lamar has been there forever and Rand had to review up in Seattle for a while but anyhow these were the two leather mamas from Seattle they were considered the leather momers the mothers of the Seattle leather community and Sasha and I were considered the leather mothers of the Portland leather community because everything happened at our house primarily because we could smoke there we take more fresh air going of course but anyhow I was judged in this damn contest that I wasn't a single picky woman these were all little standing model leather women you know and I was like what the hell's going on so Lamar looks at me and she's like why the hell are you running for it then I'm gonna do this well then shut up do it or shut up I was like okay anyhow that got me politically interested I was also a separatist and it's funny that I became a separatist at that time because I came out with men they were the ones who protected me and took care of me and I realized I had to think about that because when I was a separatist I didn't wonder how did that happen to me when did that happen why was I doing that and I realized it was because I was trying to find out who that girl I was and defining my roles and I had never done that and so I'd never like close myself off like until I had to really look that close of myself and realize that's why I'm doing it but the problem with being a separatist is when you decide you don't want to do it anymore you don't know any other guys and so Sashi and I decided this is bullshit we don't want to be separatists so we started meeting some of the guys well there's no other guys important not at that time I would give our mother son Andy Mangels credit for really pulling the men's leather community important together and he's the one that literally created the men's community so he would have men to play with and that would be and then they came out of Woodward because the joke was we only had the Knights of Martha and that was the Knights of Malta of course absolutely we're so adamant that there was no gay in there no not important boy you're wrong but I saw a little more of it of course they wouldn't do it but that was another part of my act that's another part of the reason I started fighting was because when we wanted to bring some of the guys down from Canada to teach their style of being our club would be the last they didn't look in there and the other ones would know who the hell are we going to get now I think you know it's a good thing I'm not in prison I should be in prison do you know how much shit we tried just because it looked like it might work and it really didn't work that well so that's kind of how what made us start developing that I'm sorry wow wow David tell us a bit about the first I&L because I said first of all there were no expectations there still really aren't major expectations of the I&L we're supposed to essentially show up next year and judge the same thing happened in 1979 the big thing was again there was no we had our issues of course unfortunately we didn't have as much pressing but again you were kind of sequestering San Francisco San Francisco had this kind of euphoric idea yes we can type idea we thought it'd be a bribe we won we thought it was an initiative we didn't think we would we won you have to understand this is a time when people were fighting yes or no whether it was our right to have discrimination on sexual orientation and everything so we fought for the party we were just pressing need for survival especially in the area of San Francisco so as you come along you come back to San Francisco your friends internationally of course a lot of international friends is more in New York San Francisco L.A and believe it or not Houston were the big centers and the party you went and you did things our benefits were like wheels on wheels at that time there was no major problems such that you could grasp on other than small community events and again there was like a set of wheels on wheels so you come back in San Francisco you go into the little bars of black and blue the bribe, the arena and you end up bartending and you do all your hand raised tips the tip of charcoal goes to the local charity and one of the idea is IML is like a senior party guy he's the guy that everybody likes everybody wants to have fun with and that's what you did and actually he was told on stage one of those years because back in the middle of everything he was politicized and everything somebody stood up for fisting in the aisles somebody went over here and wanted to do this somebody did that they would close they wanted somebody to have a good time and he did basically you know the fact that up until the early 80s it really wasn't a major reason to do anything even when Patrick Turner went back ok the big thing in San Francisco was to build on what was Folsom Street Fair now everybody thinks that Folsom Street Fair is a leather fair it was not originally a full leather fair and it didn't start until the 80s it was a community fair it happened to have people from the leather community that partook it was designed to stop developers and so Patrick started to start a small little a street fair and it was called Reno Valley and it kind of had a moving door when the neighbors kind of got this way he'd have fun at night but that was about as far as we went other than being involved in local issues so I'm not a lesbian at the time I was so Judy what's the difference between a lesbian and a dyke? people always ask me if I'm a lesbian and I say no I'm not a lesbian I'm a dyke and they ask me to define it I was like you just did I say lesbians make love dykes fuck no Dave you're now a Canadian citizen yes what are your thoughts on gay marriage in the United States? well I am kind of a bit of a maverick as you know I love the United States because of the situation so I my history up until that period of time when I finished with the oil business I was doing some fundraising and then I went on HIV and AIDS and I was doing a lot of others and then I went into charity work so I felt like I was doing my part and you know I had a big family I worked hard I supported the community I've done my dues and I moved to San Francisco to say okay I'm going to still continue doing this I have a board of directors of this board of directors that raise money, raise money, raise money be involved politically I went to Toronto in 2001 by part of where he had left and we finally tied not as far as at least having to be together in August so one of those things, well I am in a house in San Francisco and he was much more flexible so he officially came to stay with me but not officially because you couldn't do those things they didn't want a lot of foreigners coming in and so we had sort of like a nice little touchy way of the illegal situation going that wasn't you know he was on the edge because he never knew what was going on so we were doing our part going back and forth across the border and then one time he ran into a border guard a border guard said why are you in the United States put him in a big mistake we had bought a ticket round trip and we forgot we couldn't find any other half so we thought well we're just going to stupid it's cheaper buy a round trip ticket from San Francisco after this and they basically interrogated him for four hours and they said we don't let you find me so I said we don't want you living off of America you cannot come back well if I'm living in there for a little bit this kind of thing was a big one I'm living in San Francisco I may tell you about it but all my health care is down here most things you have down here coming to protection is basically a very small area like New York a lot of communities you don't have any protection so all of a sudden I found my life in total of people here I've been doing my best and all of a sudden my country basically tells me you don't give a fuck what you've done you have a choice you can stay give it the person you love or you can give the fuck out I did not take that very well so needless to say my whole idea in regards to the marriage bit in the United States equal not equal I really started to study because a lot of gay people in America really don't I mean we talk about it but when you're kind of in your own little shelter community you feel very comfortable because until you press against the wall you tend not to respond and do you get angry well I get angry I I talk to every magazine I could I sat down there I talked and I was one of five people that went to Canada we did a documentary called gloriously free five people came from five different countries around the world because they could not find freedom in their own country and of course when I went up there I said well I'll do it because I was going through immigrant status system they were there you're all free you can do whatever you want so yeah tell that to me and meanwhile we were reading magazine for the time of your Amnesty International we talked, we carried on this documentary was translated into seven languages and then all of a sudden 2003 Ontario says you can legally get married and I was like whoa so we went down to city hall and there we are and we're going for a marriage certificate here I am a man who has gone through most of my life trying to pretend I'm not gay not pretend but at least my life is not jeopardy my home is not jeopardy my job is not jeopardy and I'm going to go down to city hall and apply for a marriage license to a man I love legally and it was like wow and at first we probably pulled off a little bit and it was a little confusion and I remember standing there why do you want to get married you know half the people in Quebec you know in domestic partnership relationships my partner said well you know you want to do it because you know you can, you want to show the world you can so we get all of our stuff we go down to city hall none of those fancy plans or anything if I went down I would have been in jail two witnesses Jess Louise he's a youngster he's a mysterious, he's Canadian it's not quite as much a big deal I cry I mean I'm 57 years old and I stand beside somebody that I really love and I efficiently hold this hand and say I do legally and it was the most amazing experience of my life and every time I hear the stuff in a different news than you do where you know what's going on down here maybe you've seen it but when you said before the stuff that ripped versus the stuff that they found on television it makes you so angry it's the idea we are people we contribute we give of ourselves why won't you give us the rights to be like everybody else and so my ideas on getting married is you don't have to do it if you don't want to but you should have the right to do it yes Sasha and I when Sasha was dying we knew she was dying Sasha worked and had a traditional job this is why they are going to fight us getting married as much as they can forever worked in a traditional job and made a lot of money she was a pharmacist she made a lot of money her retirement her social security would have been a good paycheck every month if we were allowed to marry our survivors would be eligible for that social security and you know what kind of system it is now and what trouble it's in there's no way in hell Sasha and I talked about it Sasha came up with an idea to like circumvent it and we just did she die too fast we just couldn't put it into a book but I thought it was a wonderful idea and I've told too many people about it since I could say do it do it do it we have a friend a Sanford director okay Sanford also made a really good living all of his life he was a relatively wealthy family but decided he would work and made a lot of money had a really large social security payment coming to hand his partner Michael was also an artist didn't make much money and we were good friends we had planned and didn't get to put it into effect you know what's coming right I was to marry Sanford Michael would marry Sasha so that we would have those survivors benefits when we needed them and they wouldn't be lost or going back into the general pool can you realize how many gay people in this country make good livings and especially in the AIDS era when we went through the Holocaust it was there's just no other term for it how much social security will never ever be paid out but it may have been people to marry in their spouses well here's the thing I'm legally married in Canada the United States is forced by a treaty to recognize community community yet the Grammy is not as entitled to any of my benefits but I'm entitled to all of his benefits we work with this convoluted thing where we have to live our lives through back doors in order to thrive and get the benefits that anybody else gets and so as far as I'm concerned this is the battle I know it's not specifically leather oriented but it is people in our situation anybody's rights you know this whole thing and every time that I say the land or the home and the grave are free I cringe every time I hear that because who is free essentially male rich heterosexual we really belong don't we anger could be the most effective mechanism for change on this planet if channeled in the right way it has to be based on anger I think so because of the energy that comes out of it okay a few questions to direct to you both some people have made the observation that modern title-building has involved has evolved rather into a monster of sorts there's so many of them so is a successful title-holder a strong person with a title or is it a person who inhabits a title to meet its expectations you first I have some ideas on that go for it okay so as I said I got involved I've been going on HIG where I can go a lot of time and I went to work for various age organizations on the board of directors and I worked as people in the office and do all kinds of things but they're really small and I used to get a lot of flack because they'd say well you don't say you're getting close by in 1979 and I said oh no I'm just doing something that is important to help people I think you've got to get back it sounds like this karma thing if you don't do good you're not going to get good back so therefore I figured I used to tell them I say the title does not define me the title is defined by what I do and that was basically the way I thought of life if I'm sitting down there I don't want to be the president or something as long as what I do reflects well the title that's what it is for you're not a strong person that has a title for me you were doing the same thing but you didn't realize it in 1979 I realized that what I was doing was creating something now somebody created the title you know people in San Francisco created the title there's an internationalist leather but I I used to tell people here's the good news I have there was good news for me I didn't have to follow anyone I could create and here's the bad news I didn't have anyone to follow so and it was true but I had an opportunity that and you do too that most people don't get I knew that what I did could be important I also had some reasons I ran primarily I ran because like I said I got my own words thrown in my face like if you don't vote don't bitch so Sasha used that on me okay don't bitch about there not being any leather women writing for this title unless you do it and I knew there was a whole lot of shit coming down because Seattle, Portland and San Francisco the women's communities were pretty tight we all knew each other there was running up and down I5 Sasha used to say I've climbed up and down I5 so many times I feel like a bed and long ball but so San Francisco the downcasts downcasts were supporting Ansel and then pulled out now I'm not sure I heard stuff but you know you always hear rumors and I've decided many years ago not to believe them because I've heard a lot of rumors about me I'm a hermit living on an island somewhere in the San Juan's whatever I am kind of a hermit living in a garage paying pictures right now but yeah when I keep hearing all this I'm dead a few times and I'm not sure what was but I know there was a division and the outcasts pulled out well a lot of the members of the outcasts were really close with some of my friends who were in the the group in Seattle why did I just just lost the name I'm sorry I do this all the time I apologize but anyhow the group in Seattle we were all we had to be in Portland and so then the Seattle crowd pulled out and Kathy Gage and Sky Renthrow who were on the board for Ansel called to talk to Sasha they called our house because everybody wanted to know anything about whether going on in Portland called our house what's his name? Carola Rivera, his wife Cici used to call him our house all the time do you want to ask his questions that seem a little bit too? No, he would be having some kind of a guest with some strange issues one was a lesbian a juvenile court judge with a child and we had one so she always called us on strange things so Kathy Gage called our house and asked if the Portland community would come in behind and support it and Sasha said ask her a bunch of questions about it and why they were starting it and what was involved and so by the end of the conversation Sasha said yes the Portland community will support you and we talked to all of our crowd and they said yes Sasha then called Kate for the primary domain which was one of the two primary women's bars in Portland and asked her if she would sponsor the contest and Kate said yes and she would also give the one a $500 so we had to create a contest very specifically as a theater for pencil because Oregon State Letter Woman was not and so there were 14 of us who ran and I wasn't going to run I felt the stages I did all that I was willing to do all the work but Sasha and Sally you were deciding I was not going to know anything about the contest, I was like I'm not going to run and so then they both kind of tackled me about it they need to feel Catholic guilt works so and I keep saying I'm going to recover in Catholic Catholic girl school yes but so I agreed to run and Sasha made me see that what I was doing was supporting another step for Letter Woman and so that I could do so we planned to go down we would do our support let them know that Portland was behind them and then we were going on vacation because Sasha's cancer was in remission and we had planned a vacation we were going to Vegas and then down to Arizona to see my kids and then I was going to take her into Mexico she had never been to Mexico so we had all these big plans and my famous last words was I was going to have Portland because everybody was like you're going to win this you're going to win this I'm not going to pick up that 40 year old lady and die to be in the nation let her get real and I was like don't do it and not have them and it was so funny because they did but and so of course I had to pick my winners I knew who was going to win that contest and Kim Wallace and I didn't know who was going to come in and I didn't know whether there was going to be first or second runner up but I knew that but Shaddlemore was going to win and so I had to pick and Shaddle was right behind me I kept hitting my feathers because I had a full dress full of chief's headdress and she had these huge spikes everywhere Shaddle was a sheep Shaddle was a young man now but and also still one of the nicest people I've ever known he's a good human being but anyhow Shaddle and I became buds Shaddle and I were in the ring but we really enjoyed fixing her strings this ring was a dancer with the nicest ass I ever saw anyhow so I knew my winners and so we went through all the things and everything and when it's about over I'm standing and we were in the club DDA in San Francisco which is a very small stage the stage is no bigger than if you cut that one off at that angle and that one off at the angle and bring it to about here that's as big as the stage is and then it's got a long fashion runway and there were 14 of us and I was number 7 and we were in this little view shape like this and we were stepping back and looking around and I knew who was going right and so they announced the first runner up no they announced the first runner up there was rainbow and I thought well okay no the second runner up was rainbow and I thought okay so rainbow got it and Kim Wallace did it and so Kim Wallace will probably be first runner up well they called Shadow Morton as the first runner up and I thought well who the fuck won so I kind of stepped back as far as I could and I'm not even looking at anybody I'm looking up and down the lane trying to figure out who the hell would it and so they announced me and I didn't hear and so there was a young woman named PJ she was from Minneapolis and she was right next to me on this side Shadow was gone so PJ is next to me and I said who did they say did they call who did they say she said you get out there and I went me me and I saw that was it but I was like stunned and needless to say our vacation got postponed yeah but I got to create something and uh Shadow I'll never let it forget it well what advice for present and future title holders hmm well first of all I think that you really need to do it for the right reasons yeah and you have to make sure you know the reasons you're doing it and I think the idea of bringing greater unity to the leather community leather brotherhood I think those ideas are fine but you have to have a core reason how are you going to do it not what you want to do like how are you going to do it and before you get on the stage you better be ready to know because I want y'all to be together world peace love you and all that kind of stuff doesn't go very far so you got to be really ready to know what you want to do and how are you going to do it yeah that's excellent advice and mine usually to brand new title I've had a lot of brand new title holders come up and especially a lot of insults over the years and say what advice do you have for me now that I've won I said eat before you go because and I'm going to tell the story I'm now an MAO I get invited to MAO and I get there and there I help Frank was just a pop back then and he tells this story too and where I decide I get in there and I want to help get ready, get the bank work they have this wonderful book bank MAO and I wanted to help and so Frank said well you can help me we can peel eggs so we're back there talking and we're peeling eggs and Frank is doing the flowers because he was in charge of doing all the flowers and when I got out there and I saw that book bay table all day because I flew and they took me to the where the contest was going to be and that was it so I'm working on all this food I walk out there there is roast suckling eggs a shrimp tree of ice with shrimp everywhere all these wonderful foods laying out this is unfair we didn't eat dinner that's okay the rest of the story is I got two shrimp I'm serious because you're so busy meeting people and talking to people that food is like peripheral so not funny before you go but I agree David I think the primary the primary reason to run for a dial is if you really have something you want to see or something you want to see happen now one of we've both judged lots of contests now lots of hundreds and one of the things that turns me on immediately is someone who says my I want to see more I want to join the men's and women's community together and that turns me on immediately yeah I know but usually that's what they'll say I'm going to join the men's and women's community together they leave out a whole lot of people if I do that it's called play two two they also they also don't know any of their history so they don't know what it was like when they're really a royal school community humidity so they have no idea and so that's it's like giving generalizations you know because they don't know what the hell it just sounds like a good idea at the time world peace yes and I remember what when they in my my speech when they when they when they when they in my my speech I wanted to be honest I'm running because I believe we need to be visible and so that's where I ran we needed to be visible and Chuck Rinslow can I tell that story we've got a couple of them sure okay I love to tell stories you guys didn't even know that Chuck Rinslow scared the holy living shit out of me my first major thing was to speak at IML and I've never let Chuck RJ you and Gary were in charge of IML back then anyhow Chuck had said well you know you're the first woman we've ever invited on stage who was not a performer or an entertainer so he said I have no idea what reception you're gonna get he said I've had an awful lot of talk from the man who do not want women at IML so here I am walking in there trying to figure out what the hell I'm gonna talk about not get food out of the building and so all that fear and I actually wrote I had no idea I've never I've never in my life known what I was gonna talk about and what I'm speaking until I actually get there and something happens that triggers something that's important and I can talk about it it's just really strange my friend Jim Merchant used to call it a speech fairy but I had no idea what I was gonna say and I'm sitting there with an empty pizza box and I wrote what I was gonna talk on the empty pizza box and I thought well I may get moved out of here but at least I'm being honest with them and so I talked about separatism but you know what was so funny because Judy T'Nu was the entertainment the year that aired and before Judy was even introduced they knew what was kind of just the program the whole crowd all the guys in the crowd started going Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy and she comes on stage and does her bit and I knew I was gonna be okay when Chuck got up to enter it was a prank I think it was a prank no, it wasn't, right? it was a puppy I can't even remember who was they didn't see that year yes, you're right, it was out it was out, you're right yes, it was out and just before he started just as he started to introduce me this huge auditorium starts yelling Judy Judy, Judy, Judy and I knew I was gonna be okay and I always say that it was the men's community that helped make Enfield because there weren't any women I mean there were so few women anywhere and that opportunity to speak at IML the guys were embracing and invited me all over the country I pretty much, you know unless she was on a chemo and I spent my time taking care of her on chemo's but other than that, we were on the road that whole year, we spent like $10,000 our first five months out of five so it was pretty wild time I think that was one of the positions we are great at having you not back that year thank you, RJ that's a cool thing to say I just remember being so scared when I got on stage I had to go pee and the bathrooms had lines two and a half miles long there were guys everywhere and you, you was you who said someone wanted to take me to the bathroom to make sure I got back out there and on stage I'm sure it was you because you were standing right down there on the front and I said I got to go pee and you grabbed somebody and said get her to the bathroom, get her back here on stage ladies first I'm in this line I have a black mother down here and I'm in this line and I'm passing all these guys waiting for the toilet and I'm heading man and the guy walked in and he said woman coming through and it's all coming through and I got into like everybody said okay, fine, no problem I only, I met one guy many years later who we're friends now he said, you know, he walked in there right now but I am now it was the men's community that helped us build the women's community and you know it was reciprocal at that point because it was, it was we were also all of us doing everything we could to try to keep our brothers alive I'd like to conclude the formal part of our interview with greetings from the current intel and the current IML to their to their seniors in the community so this greeting is from Lavalani to Judy Judy thank you for all you've given me and to the community you're a great friend and role model you were in my life when I first discovered this community when I received my first sash as Washington State Miss Leather and I hope you'll continue to be in my life for many more milestones I love you Lavalani that's great and from the current IML Jeffrey Payne to David he's a little more ebullient, he's got a lot to say here David 30 years ago you accepted the first title as IML and with it the responsibility of serving as the grand ambassador to a community that was ever changing out of the shadows and into the mainstream and needing a firm hand of guidance to ensure its longevity a task that to most people would seem more daunting and glabless and more intimidating than relaxing yet with your incredible smile and your honorable heart you accepted the responsibility and you have served our community every day since that moment 30 years later sending their leather fish and lives openly with pride knowing and appreciating that you were the first at the helm steering us on our journeys none of us can thank you enough for the service you have provided the community and for me it's an honor and a privilege to share the title with you your leather brother Jeffrey Payne IML 31