 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. He died in a car crash with Earl, the bass player, his brother. And Earl was driving. It was a bad time, it was a bad time. But yeah, we were nice to do the live acting. Probably the reason for that is because Bob Geldof hates us. Why? Because we nicked his PA. We were playing in New York in massive gigs. No, it was the Greek theatre. Was it the Greek theatre? Well, Sharon Stone came in, Mum. Sharon Stone wanted to come on stage with us and I was such a pompous, arrogant twit. I went, what do you mean she wants to come up on stage? Well, we didn't rehearse that. Of course, tell her she can't. I mean, she's the front row, you know what I mean? She used that belt. She went off. She went off. She could be a cleaning film, you know, by Sharon Stone. Unbelievable, eh? And it was from then that I started thinking, oh, something's going on here. Decisions were being made, musical decisions, you know, that I didn't agree with and I'm going, what's going on, you know? And we were in rehearsals and I'd been palmed off with this, this money. I didn't know where it'd come from and they'd said, oh, it's an insurance claim that you threw something and I went, I'd never had an insurance claim. So I said to the rest of the band, something's going on. I'm being lied to by those fuckers upstairs, you know, and I'm not having it. You know, I know I want to get to the bottom of it. I'm not going to be lied to. And Brian Travers, he really sacks about nine times. He went, sometimes you have to be lied to, Ellie. And that's when I realised, hold on, it's not just them upstairs. There's some school doggery going on. Absolutely. With the band. Ben, we're on. Today's guest, we've got UB 40 legends, Ali Campbell and Astro. It's great to be here, great to be here. Absolute honour to have you on. Massive fans, families have been family and friends. Massive fans for years. One of the biggest bands to come out of Britain. Over a hundred records sold worldwide. It's unbelievable achievement, fair playing. It's a hundred million. Yeah, a hundred million. What did I say? Hundreds. Just messed out the million. It's a hundred million records sold worldwide, which is unbelievable achievement. Honestly, it's absolute pleasure, guys. How are you? OK, just glad to get out of the house. You're still going strong. Right up until we were locked down, we were in Puerto Rico and Brazil. Yeah, Kenya. Kenya before that, yeah. So we're still doing what we were before the lockdown. Traveling around the world and promoting reggae, which is what we started out to do. Yeah, phenomenal achievements so far. I think 60 singles released, many albums with over 20, over 30 albums, I think, all together. Yeah. Some career guys, honestly. Especially with the artists now, they're kind of flashing the pan. You're supposed to be doing this over 30 and still going strong. It shows you the kind of mindset and mentality you have as well. Just tenacity and, you know, a refusal, a refusing to go away, basically. Because it was always us having to promote ourselves, you know, because we'd never get promoted by any of the record companies. Because they always thought, you know, they've had their little time, you know. But we've just carried on, yeah, for 40 years. Unbelievable. It makes me laugh, you know what I mean? I always go back to the start of my guest to kind of get a bit of information about the guests and how they grew up and where it all began, basically. Your first alley boy? Birmingham, Borsaleith, wrong side of the tracks, I think, I call it. I grew up on Reggae, listening to Reggae. That was the music of the streets, really. I was into the Jackson Five when I was a little kid. I was the same age as Michael. And I could sing the same as him, you know. All those beautiful guts to be there and ain't no sunshine and all those Jackson Five hits. I used to sing them in the school playground, you know, for me mates and all that. And then in 74, 75, I saw the Jackson Five in 1974 and then I saw Bob Marley and the Odeon in Birmingham. And that just changed everything. I'd already, I already loved Reggae because that was the music of Borsaleith, you know. All my neighbours were West Indian or Asian. I also liked Indian music and films, Indian films, Mother India and Piazza and all those Indian films. But Reggae was more accessible to me than Indian music. So how was that thing? Like Reggae kind of scene from, obviously at that era, was like the Beatles and stuff. I was mad about the Beatles, of course. Just like anybody, you know, of my age. Because Reggae wasn't big then, was it? Was it only like Bob Marley? Yeah, Bob Marley was the first exponent of Reggae really in England. John Holt, Desmond Decker, you know. And it was always like a weirdo, you know, because I loved Reggae at my school. Everybody else was listening to glitter music and Mark Bowlin and David Bowie and Roxy Music. All of that went over my head because I was kind of immersed in Reggae. Why do you think that is? Why do you think you're connected with that? Because it's the greatest music in the world and it was the youngest music form. You know, one of the questions we were always asked is, you know, why do you think you're so popular and why we've done so well? It's because we chose Reggae, I think, because it was the youngest music form that there was. You know, Reggae only came around in 1968. Before that it was Rucksteadie. Before that it was Scar. So we were too young for Scar. And sort of Rucksteadie, Red, Red Wine by Tony Tribe, you know, records like that is what we grew up on. What about yourself after all? Pretty much the same. We're from virtually the same neighbourhood. And, you know, we're exposed to exactly the same music. Where we are, there's a high West Indian population anyway. So if you went around to anybody's house, they'd either be playing Rucksteadie, you know what I mean? And when we was at school, I think it was in the second year, we started having school discos where everybody's allowed to bring in three records of their choice, you know, obviously supervised by the teachers. And so a few of the black kids, like myself, would be bringing in their records. And once you've heard it, because as Alice, as you did, the English kids would be bringing in glitter and, you know, glitter music and whatever. And it's just like, now, this is something just totally brand new. Never heard it before. And I see you just immerse yourself in it. And every dinner time we used to go down to Ladypool Road, there used to be a record shop called Dunn Christie's, where you used to do nothing but import Jamaican music. And you'd spend all dinner time there and I would just listen to the new tunes. It was a one-legged white bloke, wasn't he? Yeah, Dave. And that was it. So you'd spend all your pocket money on records and you'd go to youth clubs. You'd go to Barnabas, Shell, Mount Pleasants. These were youth clubs. They predominantly played reggae music. I think the only places that used to play mixed music were church youth clubs. But once you started going to Rainbow and Barnabas, it was just reggae all the way. And then kids in the area would start building their own sound systems. You know what I mean? Once a month they'd have a sound clash down at the school, usually Mount Pleasants or Queens Bridge, or at the Shell, you know. And I think it's just like, it's just a natural progression. When we were 10, that was the first 10 years old. That was the first wave of skinheads, the real wave of skinheads when it was a real working class movement and it was totally multi-racial. You know what I mean? Your dad, your rude boys coming over and Windrush and all that, and their kids and us got together, you know. And I thought everybody loved reggae, but of course it was just in there. Because outside of there everybody was going, you just need to look for it. You've been friends since primary school? I've known him since... You knew Mickey first, didn't you? Me and Mickey went to school together, we was in the same class at school. So I suppose from the start of senior school, I suppose, just from going down the Shell Youth Club. He's not fucking sick of the seat of each other. Do you know what, no? No, actually. That's mad. I've been putting up with somebody for 40 years and still here. Well, there was a lot of us, you know, there was us. We didn't become band members. Was that a road crew? We became a road crew, yeah. So there were about 40 of us in the sort of mob, you know. And because there was that many of us, you didn't get sick of each other. So it was like a gang before the band? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was your upbringings like from mum and dads and stuff? I came from a communist background. My granddad was a big union man in Aberdeen. Scotland? Yeah, he's from the Shetlands. My name's Alistair Ian Campbell, by the way. So he came, he got in trouble in Aberdeen with the unions. I don't know what sort of trouble. There's a plaque to him, David Gunn Campbell on the union building. And then he moved down to Birmingham to get away from the troubles he was having in Aberdeen. And so I grew up in that sort of environment, you know, which of course made me an angry young man, you know. That's the nature of that. Against, yeah, everything, you know. When I was, I think six years old, I wrote Vietnam at the top of our stairs. But then it was me because I spelled it wrong. It was he first instead of an I. And then I got in trouble for that. But what was the six-year-old doing dorm in Vietnam, you know. It's like, I was a little sponge and I was taking and what was going on around me. My dad was a folk singer. He's like Billy Connolly and stuff. We knew Billy Connolly very well. Do you know Billy? Yeah, he used to stay at our house. Yeah, well every folk singer stayed at our house because my dad had the jogger punch, which was the biggest folk club in Europe for a while. And they were called the Ian Campbell Folk Group. And yeah, we had Paul Simon stay at our house and we had Billy Connolly stay at our house and Dave Swarbrick at Fairport Convention and all that. In fact, two of my dad's group became, they went to work with Fairport Convention and then just wrote all. So it was like, it was a musical house. But I hated the music that they were making, you know. The banjos and stuff. Oh, I hated all that, yeah, and the humble bums. Yeah, yeah, Billy Connolly and Jerry Rafferty. He's an absolute legend up in Scotland, Billy. Oh, I love it. On Billy, worldwide. What was it like in your house? Was it cracking jokes then? I can't remember. I think there was one joke he said about peanut butter. I think one of us asked what peanut butter was made of, and he said crunched up Donald Duck's, because it was Donald Duck peanut butter at the time. So we all went... As you do, don't you? Yeah. But yeah, that was the sort of... So I grew up in a folky communist background, you know. Hated folk music. Folk music. I was forced to go to Loughborough Folk Festival and all these other things. And my dad's club, you know, we went to every Thursday. So, of course, I got into reggae. It's mad though, from folk music to then reggae. If your dad does something, usually you follow suit. Well, he was very disappointed in us, you know. It was because we lived in Borsal Heath, you know. And that was the music of the streets, you know. I grew up in the CAFs, playing pinball, you know, in the CAFs. And the music in the CAFs was all reggae and the jeep-boxes, you know. What about your own upbringing, Astro? I think it was just a typical first-generation... A lot of struggles. Yeah, I mean, I mean, dad struggled. Worked seven days a week. But I've got to say, my childhood itself was a pretty happy one, really, you know what I mean, until I decided I knew better than everybody else and decided I'm going to walk my own path. I mean, up until I found music, you know, just me playing out on the street, on the bump-ex. If you needed a bike, you'd have to build one so you find an old frame, old wheels. You know what I mean? And again, straightened out and all the rest of it. Spray them up and put, you know, all the transfers. And then once I found the area where I lived, there was only a couple of Western Indian families in the immediate neighbourhood. And so most of my friends were just regular English walkies. And then suddenly hanging out with a couple of kids who just moved to the neighbourhood. And it was their older brothers that kind of introduced me to Rock Steady, because they was old enough to... You know what I mean? And that was it from then. I suppose I went off the rails then. School took a back seat. And reggae music pretty much took over, because then I left school at 15. As early as I could. And just started hanging with the sound system. I was travelling up and down the country, setting up the sound system, breaking them down. It was the only way I could afford to get into any of these shows. Because, you know, being 15, I haven't got the money to pay to go into a gig. So what you'd do is you'd find out what pub the sound system was going to be playing at on a Friday or Thursday. You'd get there a couple of hours in the afternoon, wait for the van to turn up, and then just offered help to bring the gear in. And once you've helped bring the gear in, that was your ticket, you're in there. So you just stayed there until the show started. And then just from there, just became part of the regular crew. And I suppose, so joining a band was just like a natural progression from playing music on a sound system. So actually standing on stage and playing music. So who does young kids from Polyminum become one of the biggest bands ever? How does that happen? It was, we were in the right place at the right time, you know. The two-tone thing happened, and it horrified us. I remember going to see the Coventry automatics later became the specials at the College of Food and Domestic Arts. And it was, we didn't know what it was. It was a sort of punk band with Lymville playing a scar with him. And we were like, that's terrible. Because we were into reggae. And of course, when we decided we'd get a band together. We were all reggae lovers before the band. And it was just, well, should we get a band together then? So we wanted to promote reggae music and the scar revival scene going backwards, you know. Why are they playing scar, you know. Is that if you've messed on either? Yeah, and it just seemed strange to us. I was working at Cadbury's on nights listening to Selector and Madness and specials thinking, God, this is off. We should be making reggae music, you know, with our band. And we did, it was only on nights at Cadbury's. You were at Cadbury's as well. And Mickey Virtue was at Cadbury's working. In fact, I had to go and work at Cadbury's because they threatened to throw me off the doll because I'd been on the doll since I'd left school, you know, about two and a half years. And so they made me go and work at Cadbury's making Easter eggs. One of my jobs was I'd sit on a chair that moved up and down and there'd be a conveyor belt of chocolate buttons coming towards me. And if I saw a two stuck together, I'd press a little thing and it'd go down a little hole, you know, and I was supposed to do that for ten hours. Sollywarm kills chocolate? Solly-destroying really was. And at the same time as we were made to work there, we were getting our band together and we started doing shows and we'd only played a dozen shows at the factory in Manchester and places like that, Dingwalls in London. There was a circuit and we were on that to sort of start a circuit. How were you accepted? I can remember being drenched in flub. The skinheads used to come along because we'd play Camden with madness and you'd just be skinheads, see Kyle in and spitting out. I'd have danglers off me lips and thinking, we've got puffy elbows playing with tambourine. Suddenly they're black and green polka dots. It's disgusting. But of course we were too slow because they were there to see a scar band and we were going... So they'd all go... Did that ever make you think that that's maybe we've chosen the wrong kick? No, he gave us the strength to kick on. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, because the scar revival, that's all it was, it was a revival and it's just like how fashions come and go. We just know this is a fashion that's here now and it'll be something different in six months time. Whereas Reggae, as Ali says, it was the youngest form of music out there, you know what I mean? Keep your tone because it's something that's just rehashing old stuff. Whereas what we wanted to promote was Reggae music. We wanted to play British Reggae as well, which we weren't trying to be a Yardy band. We didn't speak in Paswa and we had two Rastas in the band, so it wasn't all Rastaductry which kind of alienated a lot of people from Reggae in the 70s. So we wanted to... We wanted a political, you know, politically minded, I guess. So we wanted to say something with the platform that we had, even though it was only a little platform at the time. So we were serious, you know, we were serious about what we were doing and we were serious about promoting Reggae and that's what made us different, I guess, you know? There's very much... The cultural was at the start of 1985 from England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Jamaica. We had an Arab, you know, a crew... How was that accepted as well? Was there any racism towards then, late 70s, 80s, towards the band? Well, no, because the two-tone thing was happening and that was multi-racial, wasn't it? I want you to get the other case. The first time we went to Ireland and was playing in Cork, I ended up having some guys spitting at me through the whole of the show, you know what I mean? So I managed to get him backstage, just to ask him, you know, what's that all about? Didn't go to plan, ended up going to court over it, you know what I mean? But generally speaking, we never used to have any problems as far as being accepted. Because of the time, you know, the two-tone thing, we sort of tailed the two-tone movement, you know, we got a lot of gigs with the two-tone acts. Jenny Dam has asked us to come on two-tone, but we weren't taking any advances of any record company, you know, we were being offered 150 grand. We were on £7.90 a week on the doll, you know, and there were record companies were offering us 150 grand, but we refused that. Why? Because we wanted to go for points, we wanted percentages, and we ended up, we sold 8 million of our first album, which we made in someone's bedroom, which was the last four tracks. How did you know about points in that then? Usually if somebody comes in with an offer straight away, if you're on the doll, then it's a case of fucking take that. So who had the brains behind that? I think it would have been our dad, you know. Is that the kind of reunion stuff comes in? Yeah, he went to, you know, on a second advance, you know, go for percentages, because he had record deals and things, because he was a musician. He made 27 albums in his career. Unfortunately, he only sold back 28, you know. But no, that's unfair. That's unfair. You know, he knew the run-ins, and the sharks in the game. Yeah, just the fact that, you know, they'll give you an advance, but you've got to pay it back. And you'll pay that back before you see any, you know, any records. What they do is they give you an advance and then put you in their studio to make your records. They just take it back off you, and then take it with the other. That's nuts though, but that just shows you, for an earlase, because a lot of the kids now are just getting advances, getting money, taking that, buying a watch or a car, skint, and then you never hear from them again. Right, because they're in huck. But then you're getting off of that four years ago, that's some amount of money. Yeah, it's massive, yeah. For kids who were on the dole, we'd been on the dole for three years. What was the rest of the band members saying? No, they're not thinking, fuck it, just take it. Yeah, we were all of one. It was an admission, you know what I mean? Nobody was going to deviate from that, because everybody was truly just singing off the same page, yeah. So 1978, you got it together? 79. 79? Yeah. And you released the number four, your first single got to in the charts? Well, Chrissy Hyne came to see us, the pretenders, and they were number one with their album at the time. We'd only done a dozen gigs up to then, and they saw us at the rap garden and gave us a 35-day tour to support us. And you ended up doing the number one single with her? Eventually we did, yeah. That's our tune as well. That was our tune. That was the first record I ever owned that my mum bought for me when I was five years old or something. I said, I've got you, baby. So we toured with the pretenders and we released our first single, which was called Food for Thought and King. And that went to number four. So we just... After that tour, we re-booked the same tour again all over England and that was us up and running. And how was that when you started getting recognition, just boys from Birmingham just starting to take over the reggae scene? Just trying to imagine what a laugh it was. Because we always thought... We always felt like we were shoplifting or something, you know what I mean? It was just like, what's going on? You know? Suddenly we were on top of the pubs and selling out places and stuff. And it was hilarious, you know? It was like a dream come true. How did you handle that though? Because it must have been difficult. Especially when people watch TV back then, it's 15, 20 million, it's not like now there's so many different things people can watch. If you're in the limelight, it's a totally different sort of fame from what it is now. I mean, each other's feet on the ground, didn't allow anybody to get bigoted or stop boasting about anything. But we were arrogant in ourselves. When you look back, we were convinced that we were going to be bigger. Be successful. We were going to be bigger in the Beatles and all this. And when we were told that we got our first number one, I remember going back time because we were angry because we were an independent label. We had our own label. We weren't going through the right shops to get the chart positions. Yeah, the chart shops. So you'd have to jam at number one selling 30,000 records a week and we'd be at number four doing 50. So we were like cutting off our nose basically by being independent. We're staunchly independent and all that. So what we did was we ended up having our own record company but leasing it to majors, you know, A&M and Virgin. Virgin, eventually. CBS. We got sacked off CBS. We were in Paris and we went to dinner with the record company and we just did the usual thing and started skinning up after a pudding and started smoking weed and all that. So people were kind of not black bullies but it was difficult for people to work with because we were using not a pen, but we were jumping through hoops and doing being the yes men. We were with proper pain, I think to work with, you know. But you fucking don't look at either, letting the videos in that. He's all like kind of clean cut just having fun. Well, we had a reputation for being a Dower band because we were political, crying into your beard again you before, you know. One in ten. We were actually we were the biggest party band in the 80s when we took it out, you know. We always were. Who did you party with? Everybody. Everybody, you know. It's like anybody from that era, they knew about you before. A lot of people avoided us. He was using madness for the two biggest bands of the 80s, he was a charted more than anybody else in the 80s and you look at the names he's been up against. So that just shows you how fucking popular he's were then. Yeah, yeah. Madness, great bunch of guys. And Chrissy Forman actually, his dad was a folk singer as well. So my dad knew Chrissy's dad and you know, he was a bit like that. They all kind of linked. Who did Labour of Love come about? We sold 8 million of our first album which was a self-pent enough because it meant we could sign off. Yeah. And then we did Present Arms. Present Arms in Dub. We wanted to show people what Dub music was because people didn't know. I don't know what it was, what, it was Dub music? Dub, yeah. What we did was we did Present Arms in Dub which means there's no vocals and it's just drum and bass and it's a producer's art that comes from Reggae when people were toasting over it so you'd have the song on the A side and a version of the song an instrumental version on the B side. Right? Then they started rapping on the B side. With you Roy and people like that talking over the music. Then you'd start the... Then you'd have the producer King Tobi's Scratch you know, scientists what they would do, they'd play the track again with effects, you know, echoes. Just stripped down to drum and bass and then using echoes and effects and all that. So that was Dub. And we loved Dub so with our third album we thought, let's show everybody what Dub is and we did Present Arms which went to number two and then we did Present Arms in Dub and everybody started taking it back to the shop saying it's drunk. The vocals are missing. And literally in droves people were taking it back demanding money back. So that was a dub experiment going horribly wrong. But you know, it's because we were trying to educate people into what we loved. Do something new. Change the game. And it was totally new for the pop charts at the time. And we got the first Dub album into the pop charts ever. And it's just like people used to ask why we play reggae music come from Birmingham. And really we wanted Labour of Love to be our first album but people just said you can't do that. You'd just be perceived as a cabrae band. As a covers band. And so it eventually took five years for us. The simple reason was we have some Labour of Love 1 that was answered just by saying these tracks are what we grew up listening to. This is what made us love reggae music. This is what made us want to be a band. And then Labour of Love 2 3 those were songs that we listened to once we were already a band. So Labour of Love obviously how does somebody create a song, a new diamond song and ends up bigger than him and he ends up singing your version years later. We didn't even know it was Neal Diamond at the time. You know when you used to look at your record and the guy would be the name of the artist and then in Verticum as would be the actual writer. It was M Diamond sort of thinking you see the Nebel, Negus, Nicky, you know. And so to find out that it was Neal Diamond you could have knocked us over with a feather. Yeah so Neal Diamond after Red Red Wing number one in America, number one in the UK charts. That's when you've got the kind of global stardom. How was that then to go up a notch and level up? It was brilliant in America because we went and played Madison Square Gardens while being number one you know. And the only other band to do that in history was the Beatles. Yeah so we were well chuffed with that because our little thing you know we're going to be bigger than the Beatles. And then there we were playing Madison Square Gardens you know and after that we were playing the Pier which was an amazing place and we were in New York and we were smashing it and it was great. How did Americans take to you? Oh we love your style of rock and roll. Oh yeah. Your style of rock and roll but could you turn the bass down a little bit? That's what they said. They didn't like the bass it was too loud you know. How did Kingston Town not get to be number one? I don't know it should have been number one. That should have been number one. That's an absolute classic. Yeah. Like I said we have always promoted ourselves. We've always had to promote ourselves because record companies have never had faith in us you know. So we'd have a number one with red red wine and then they'd think oh that's the end of that you know and then we'd release Only Girl and we'd release Kingston Town you know. We should have gotten to number one really but we just didn't have that we didn't have a committed record company behind us. We should have ended up releasing over 60 singles so you must have had support. This should be number one as well. Did every song you released you think would have been number one? If we'd have had the right backing not all of them but definitely more than we had four number ones in our career we should have had more I think. Kingston Town should have been that's a home run man. That's an absolute. Yeah. I was in Medellin in Columbia and there's actually a cafe called Kingston Town where they just play Kingston Town continually. And Chrissie you've done the duet with Chrissie Hine Chrissie Hine. I got you a bib. And we also did breakfast in bed which was an old Scotty and Lorna Bennett that was top ten as well. Chrissie was lovely she's like our auntie you know. She looked after you. She did on the first tour she was great and Pete and Jimmy both died after that they looked after us great didn't they? We'd all be in their dressing room when we were supporting them and they'd leave all their food and their drink for us because we were like paupers you know. So she was lovely to us and still he's applied with the last about 18 months ago at Wembley with Fleetwood Mack the pretenders were playing and I got up and I got you babe people still loving it. Yeah they love it. How was it when your producer was the producer car crash at 86-87 when your career was just kicking off? How did that affect you? Big time. He was like the ninth member of the band he was always out front so when we were coming up playing clubs the smaller venues he was him on the desk dubbing the music putting the echoes in spinning the echoes around the room and stuff he died in the car crash with Earl, the bass player he was his brother and I was driving it was a bad time It was terrible for me because I used to train with him with Ray or Pablo as he was known and I couldn't train after he died so that's when I got fat How does that affect the music? Does the music get more deeper and stronger or do you still stay on the same track then? Reggae is a very uplifting music anyway so what we were famous for was wrapping our pretty solemn unhappy a political lyrics in happy tunes Our first hit was called food for thought and that skin and bones is creeping doesn't know he's dead ancient eyes are peeping from his infant's head it was like four years before live aid and it was about the hypocrisy of celebrating Christmas while people are dying all over the world but it was in a happy little melody We used that live aid to just get asked to go now not at all now there were no black acts on the first live aid whether or not it was whitey helping out blacky it was all a bit she didn't get awful to go now no we did the live aid after that like six years later or something but yeah we were nice to do the live aid thing probably the reason for that is because Bob Geldof hates us why? because we nicked his PA when he was on tour they were using TechServe which was a PA company that we used and he wanted to go back on tour and we nicked his PA system because we wanted to use it and so I think he had it in for us and didn't want us anywhere in the area and the only reason we got on the live aid was because by then I'd brought Bill Kerbishly to manage us who was the manager of the who and he sort of bargained and says have you been 40 or you won't have the you the whoever class as well great, great band yeah they're still going strong still travelling the world how did you think from the end of the 70s, 80s, 90s what either really resonated with you how much has music really changed from those years well reggae's changed it's gone through changes, it went electronic in about 1985 1985 with sling-ting and so that was the first reggae record that didn't have a real bass on it, it had a keyboard keyboard bass so it went electronic and digital and that changed reggae quite a lot but we adapted and started doing the same thing you know we were reggae anoraks so we were just obsessed with what was happening what the new bass line was what about the film is it Sliver with Shaddenstone, he's got another absolute monster song, how did that come about well the originally written Honeymoon in Vegas it was four wasn't it the Elvis Presley originally but they decided to go with Banno's version who? nobody's heard that version so the track had just been sitting around the shelves and then Sliver came along and he says well it's there, it's done dusting our song actually did better than Sliver yeah yeah and believe it or not I think Banno's I think it was 182 on the charts in all seriousness so it did make me laugh when we brought it out on Sliver and do you remember we were number one with Karnat Fawley and we were playing in New York the massive gig no the Greek theatre is it the Greek theatre and Sharon Stone came in Sharon Stone wanted to come on stage with us and that was such a pompous arrogant twit I mean what do you mean she wants to come up on stage we didn't rehearse that, of course tell us you can you know what I mean she's there in front row you know what I mean she used that belt she went off that could be a claiming fame you know back Sharon Stone unbelievable that's unbelievable after that exactly there's no girls in that gang we were serious about what we were doing and because we were under such scrutiny and everybody always wanted to pull us down, knock us down a bit so we were always wary of that and always wanted to make sure that we did a good show do you feel it was after you were not under pressure but you felt it was after because you were different and changing the game that people didn't like you weren't singing to their tune so you became more scrutinised and people tried to bring you down they were constantly trying to bring us down you know the press would always misquote what we said and stuff we didn't play the game the press I never have how did you get so far then because you don't see anybody else being independent I'm like for the first 5 years we basically spent on the road didn't come home we were constantly touring but we didn't go away on big tours that only happened when Dave Harper started managing us he used to manage Robert Palmer and Sparks and we were looking for a manager and I'd seen some a picture of Robert Palmer in Vogue and I thought we should be in Vogue you know what I mean that's where we should be so we interviewed David Harper and he started managing us and it was him that really we hadn't toured away for more than 6 years 6 months at a time sorry 6 weeks we wouldn't tour more than 6 weeks because we had wives and kids and all that very stupid and mismanaging ourselves and he said you've got to go away for longer so we ended up doing like 18 months and 2 year tours who was that then absolutely fantastic best life in the world man the only way to put it is I can't think of another job where you're out with your mates travelling around the world having the greatest start all the videos that I've seen yourself you look so fucking happy man you just look so I don't know if you're high or whatever's happening or you're drunk or whatever but you look happy I think it was actually I got you babe see the video with that was that a sound check how did the video get made what happened because it works well we made the first video we had a bit of animation in it and it was Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher dancing and they wouldn't play it they wouldn't even that's not going to get played we were going come on so anyway we ended up making a video of us sound checking in New York where was that John's Beach because your songs as well have been on so many films I think Speed as well and Eddie Murphy film is that correct probably 25 movies or something like that they've used that music that's unbelievable you can put the music that you've made on so many films and classic films as well some amazing films The Speed 2 thing was good because we got to meet Sandra Bullock what would you have knocked her back if she wanted to come on stage no no I'd learn a lesson by then absolutely darling hello Miss Bullock and then my favourite program at the time was married with children do you remember that the Bundy the handbound intrusion or something like that I got to meet him at the film at the film lot at Universal or whatever it was so that made my day you know what I mean how was it then because you got a number one in Red Red Wine and ten years later another number one these felt as if he's constantly had something to prove all the time if you felt as if people were trying to pull you down well Red Red Wine had two lives because he went to number one in 1983 all over the world except for in America and then five years later it went to number one in America and that was because a college radio station and the twelve years were sure they were going to play the beat and he couldn't find the beat that was Ziggy Mone I thought it was the beat and anyway they couldn't find that so he just put Red Red Wine on he was phoning in he was shut to number one but again not through not because it was being supported by a record company he was a fluke and it was because of this college how was it when you the popularity started rising and there was eight in the band how was the drama was there any drama then or was he all solid unit we were all on the same money it didn't matter who wrote what everybody got the same and you know it was that because we knew that most bands split up and usually it was because of musical differences which means somebody was getting the publishing and the others weren't so that was kind of we set precedent there where it didn't matter what you'd done if you're in UB40 you get the same cut how was that did you ever feel impressed on yourself being the lead singer was anybody ever tried to pull you away to go solo no I went I made a solo album called Big Love in 94 we were really popular at the time we just had promises in line that sold 10 million in America alone and we'd had kind of falling in love with Zun that so and I just thought I had about half a dozen tracks in the studio so when we weren't touring we'd always been in the studio half a dozen tracks and I said I want a million pounds for the solo album and they went don't be stupid and I went alright and I won't do it then and I held out for about eight months or something until they offered me quarter of a million and I know half a million and eventually I got a million and it was tax free and it was non-recooperable you know so it was like the great reggae swindler because what happened was they gave me the million pound I made the album and they released it and then they thought I was going to promote it and I said no I never said that I never said I was going to promote it you promote it which of course they'd never promoted anything properly for us so they weren't going to start either so I think they felt that I'd swindled them a bit you know but I said you know I'm not going solo I just made a solo album I'm still with you before today and I'll be touring with them that's what they asked for how did the band members treat you when you've done that? I think it was the start of the decline I think it sowed a seed because there was no unrecuperable and it was tax free because we were out of the country for two years anyway so I got a million quid in me and you know I also got 1.2 million out of the tour we'd just done and then I got 800,000 to promote my new record label in Jamaica so I was looking at 3 million quids sitting on it and I was in Jamaica I think it was a big inship wasn't I and I think there's at the time everybody was happy for me but then I think it kind of started to got a jealousy yeah it must have been tough though to be everything getting shared the echo to then you're getting my will I didn't see that way I mean there's nothing stopping anybody else from doing a solo project I was happy for him if we're not doing anything we've got time on his hands if he's got music to put out I've already said to a man what's the matter with you why don't you go and promote it I guess I'm not interested in promoting it I'll stick with the band and save it and then later on when I did another solo album which was written mostly the lyrics were written by Brian Travis, the sax player and we were just doing a sort of experiment because he wanted to write songs that weren't political and he said you know I want to write pop songs and do some pop stuff so yeah we get on so he soon lost interest in that and we had about again a half a dozen songs so I said I'll make another solo album then called Running Free and then then I went to the band and says because I released it and he went to number nine and we hadn't had a top ten album for a long time about 15 years at the time and I said you know I want to promote I want to take one month to promote the album like I didn't promote Big Love the first one and he told me let me do it which is when I went well sad you then and I left and that was in 2008 feeling how was that for being so solid to travel in the world for others basically to then have everything to crack start to appear how did that affect you? It was awful and it was because it was a kind of divide and rule thing that happened with the management and when I resigned that was what I said I said I can't work with this management team anymore as well as the fact that they wouldn't let me promote my album and it was horrible I didn't leave to promote and to pursue a solo career which is how they put it how they span it I left because I couldn't work with the management and Astro left for the same reason a couple of years later because the management were up to a lot of skull duggery Typical management how did that remain on yourself Astro when Ali left where he's trying to still kick on Yeah well that's all you can do is try and carry on but for me I think it was one of the darkest moments of the band's I couldn't believe that they prepared to lose their lead singer over management managers we used to go through butter so all of a sudden why so insistent on sticking with the same management We'd had a meeting in Paris remember where we got rid of one of them because it made such a mess of the stage show that we'd done in there at the theatre in Birmingham remember and it really messed things up so we had this meeting in Paris where we decided we were losing him and the other guy was there and he went okay I'll tell him when I get back blah blah blah so we all got back I went down I wasn't living in Birmingham then I'd moved down to Bournemouth Bournemouth area and two weeks later in Birmingham to our studios and they were best friends with the bloke that we were supposed to be sacking you know and everybody was back on board with him and I was going on and it was from then that I started thinking something's going on here decisions were being made musical decisions that I didn't agree with and I'm going what's going on you know and we were in rehearsals and I'd been palmed off with this this money I didn't know where it'd come from and they'd said oh it's an insurance claim that you threw something and I'd never had that insurance claim so I said to the rest of the band something's going on and I'm being lied to by those fuckers upstairs you know and I'm not having it you know I know I want to get to the bottom of it I'm not going to be lied to and Brian Travers he's saxophone sometimes you have to be lied to and that's when I realised hold on it's not just them upstairs there's some school doggery going on with the band who was that for you to think were you at a backstabbing that's what it was it was a total backstabbing kind of naively and Travers said that sometimes you have to be lied to and I realised then and they sent the rights so that was nearly 30 years together though 28 years it's still a long time to think then that it's heartbreaking as well to see that you've been so close travelling the world, you've made money everything's been split no disrespect to anybody else but you were the face of UB40 and I wrote all the melodies every original melody we did what do you think happened then just everybody getting older what do you think happened I think it was because of the deal that I'd got before that's seeds of contempt I think do they feel as if they should have maybe got a piece of your solo money no but I just think that there was jealousy I think it was that in the last step because it decided I am going to go and promote Malibu I mean a few people have just been pushed out of joint because it's usually been a case of who can shout the loudest can say why kind of thing but as Ali says I'm not going to be Brad Beaton I know it's how many of you know Fiji and Astro it was Mickey Virtue as well when I left Mickey Virtue left it the same couple of weeks later the management was telling me he's not going to get it was like that quarter of a million quid or something so he came down and I started investigations and what I found out was that the management had lent us money and we thought we were paying back a company called Dumar actually and I sent a private investigator out to the Turks and Caikars or whatever the signatory on Dumar was one of our managers so they were then charging us extortionate amounts of money to pay back this loan it was actually them so I thought wow what a ladsy of this then and I got Mickey Virtue he came down to London and I showed him that we had this proof that the management were at it back to the band and nothing they stayed with the management because David Inca hoots with them they were flipping properties with him all the business together then one of the management people had come to me and said we're starting to flip properties are you interested in that we're a bunch of fucking socialists we're talking about flipping properties like vultures waiting for people to lose they're home and then going in and buying it and then flipping it so it goes against everything you've been raised totally and everything I've just been singing about for 28 years so I was unfounded and then I found that the band members were involved and then it just got more and more unpleasant when I left well you can tell them this and the fans were all going well thanks for the memories and blablabla and then Jimmy Brown yeah yeah yeah because when he left it was so come on it's up to the high ground I don't know we're in about three hours of Ali leaving or four hours of him leaving the fans had been thanks for the memories blah blah happy in whatever you're doing in the future blah blah four hours later Jimmy Brown's here he's a drummer we're muddy the waters now can't allow him to gang traction with the fans and I was it just started an assassination character assassination on out lasted until now I couldn't when the first I didn't just kick this amongst ourselves I'm saying well quite rightly too because it doesn't fucking concern anybody else apart from the band you know what I mean and then like with the four hours as I say little fingers itching on the keyboard just assassinate but at the same time dark clouds had already started forming we knew people were coming looking for money from the band you know what I mean Henry as well couldn't leave straight away I thought if this is going to blow up you know what I mean knowing the way out I know that certain members are I'd be left to fend for myself you know what I mean and what happened I had to fend for myself what they did was they put a trump top directors loan on me which was a load of bullocks and then I actually had a meeting with the management and I taped it at the hotel in the van going what's this bloody directors loan it's nonsense and oh I'm just juggling figures don't worry about that I'm just juggling figures early and at the same time my brother Rubin was signing off accounts saying that I owed this money you know and then they did exactly the same thing to us yeah absolutely actually worked out to be exactly the amount that they're saying that I owed well what it was it worked out exactly what it cost to run the company every year that's what me and him apparently owned you know this from directors loans you know that's when like you know you've got one of your so-called mates just own up to it you know that you had that 400 grand what do you want to pay especially if because like you know there was talk you know I've been freeloading for the last 25 years blah blah blah so if just like me like how would you allow me to have 400 grand more than you you know so like when it all went tits up when there was I've been meetings with the solicitor they was more concerned about Ali finding out about you know whatever was being discussed and I was even telling me not to tell my wife that she was about to lose a fucking house just because my wife and Ali's wife they remained mates after Ali had left I kind of know me and him didn't talk once until I left and joined Al it hadn't been something that had been planned out you know secretly but just purely because our wives had remained in contact with each other every few months we've been like well seen Ali lately or what was Ali doing around here what do you want to match so yeah so it was just bad vibes all around and so like when it all kicked out I'm like it's like when we got the solicitor we were in the room with the solicitor I'm like I did start taping the meetings and and asked his plan of action a couple of people Robin and Brian bleeding saying I don't owe this amount of money and you know giving daggers to Dave Parker you know and Dave was like no no it's alright yeah yeah as far as I was concerned they was expecting me to divorce my wife so that she'd be able to claim money before the court case what? that was for me everybody else we can work this out okay so you're going to throw me under the bus I know I've got to leave after all those years when my wife says stop being like well it got to the stage where me kids were even looking up there in the band I couldn't I haven't been loyal I couldn't come up with one good reason it's only when the wife says be a man give Ali a call sit down and have a chat did he try and turn you against Ali though not to call not to do anything they're Diller Band members they were so paranoid they thought that I had been secretly with him for months even if you were then who fucking cares as well do you know what I mean it's just as you just people who you thought were your friends really weren't they had a ulterior motive especially for being with each other for 30 years as well it was a big thing to call a lot and draw a line under it but just after the vitriol that just made it so much easier and I couldn't be happier than I am right now because there's no UB for it let's face it with who there's two UB for it they've kind of haven't got a leg to stand on you know what happened was I went out as the legendary voice of UB 40 you know and I was using that moniker for several years and doing very well that's another hilarious thing they were putting on their socials that I'd left to pursue a solo career and it had bummed and everything I released was top 10 you know and they weren't getting in the charts you know so how they could say that I'd bummed was beyond me it's kind of carried like that really our last album was number 2 you know and they haven't charted really for 20 years who has it got the lead singer a little bit like your brother is it Duncan or Robin Duncan yeah how was that feeling for being always close prior to that Duncan was like the one that didn't do anything you know he'd been on the dole for 8 years when he joined him the opposite touch to the minor's touch yeah and the thing is I used to go to dunk and unload on him and say you know back to management and stuff and his advice to me was well why don't you down tools why don't you stop working with them and then they're going to have to come to you know they're going to have to sort things out and I went you know what after a while I know it wasn't immediate but I went you know what I'm going to take your advice Duncan and I'm going to start working with him and he joined the day after so it was all planned kinder kinder yeah that's what it sounds like to me well yeah I think I seriously think that my brothers were sent mad and my dad went a bit mad with my success morning rubbing success you know Duncan was always the he was the one that was up the pub you know and I hadn't done anything and you know he was unemployed yeah I think you're actually right about that but even Dave even Dave he started saying that he was going to be the lead singer and stuff he's the older brother David he's always been a voice of reason for many years you know but then like when he was doing this interview saying that he could have been the lead singer where did that come from he was in jail he got seven years for arm robbery and the day he come out I made him the manager of the band you know because he was an eloquent bloke you know and he managed the band for two years I think and then he met Lisa Anderson who was head of Virgin International at the time and they became a couple and then he went so so you gave them that start as well family members how do you deal with all that carry on then Duncan I let him go out to Jamaica and stay at my house with a guy called Bertie Grant and I spent 150 grand of my money for him to make an album which didn't get a deal you know because it wasn't very good but I'd done that for him as well and then for him to give me advice you know I think you should down tools you know that all sorts of things for him to step in and then yeah next thing I know he joined the band so how can they be trying to take your name UB40 away and they're keeping theirs so how does it work who has got the rights nobody because it's an unemployment benefit for them belongs to the police station department of social security so that's what the name UB40 was but unemployment benefits we were all on the doll another bit 40 is just the registration number registration number some name as well it's got a great meaning it gave us 3 million card carrying fans instantly didn't it when we released the album we put it in a the cover was a doll card and you could the first batch you could actually post them for your charge yeah we had to have it franked the second like yeah post office had got a rise to it so we had to put a frank marker and it's like you couldn't actually post it yeah so I thought it was a brilliant move it was us that introduced that you know if you take your doll card to the gig you get in you know half price and stuff with the dollar and you've also got a bottle of red wine now is that correct where can people buy that wine online eminent life and it's a lovely bottle of wine as it happens I don't drink anymore they've got us to bring me one so moving forward for the future guys how are you feeling we've got more albums coming out we've got a brand new album obviously the covid things put the muckers on everything we haven't completed it yet but we've got tours a tour that was booked before the covid lockdown which we've put back till 22 22 but we're hoping to be playing this summer there's some festivals around England and stuff I think we'll be in Europe there's no more setbacks we should be really busy for the rest of the year and 2020 we'll continue where we left off we'll try to wear them back in when you start selling out tours again and travelling the old band members we'll try to get back in with trying to make amends it became so unpleasant yeah you know I've kept every post and you know Brian Travers the sax player started threatening my fans and I'm going to come and have you and all this stuff I've got it all because one day I'm going to put a book together just using their posts Jimmy Brown the drummer Ali only likes his black kids it's just the fuck is all that about but I've kept them all what was Nelson Mandela like you played at his 70th party was that in South Africa what happened was we upheld the cultural boycott until he was released 1994 was he and then when we went for the first time because obviously we'd sung a lot of songs about South Africa but we'd never played there because of the cultural boycott so one man one vote he got out and we went and played in Johannesburg to 80,000 people who was that fucking amazing it was a proper lip wobbling moment yeah you holding the back of the tears oh man 80,000 people and the song at the time was called sing our own song and the chorus was a Mandela a way to which is the ANC chant power his ass and to have 80,000 people clenching their fists and going a Mandela a way to back at us you know it was fucking amazing did you ever get to meet him no no no we didn't get to meet him what about Matt Cocknall because you was kind of how is your relationship with him did you have a friends what that is simply read we took them on their first I know people talk about you mentioned you before because when I say it's holding back the tears I think that's one of your songs that's what came into my mind yeah holding back the years holding back the years now we took them on their first British tour and then we took them to Europe and then we took them to America and when we finished that tour with them supporting us they released their monies to and then they took off and went their own way but we really liked them because they reminded us of us when we started there was like scruffy mankeys and they were like we were scruffy brummies so we discovered them that's unbelievable another phenomenal talent it just shows you who's the best what was it like then partying years there was a lot of drugs a lot of weed cocaine then 80s 90s right I should join the fucking drone back in the day then youngsters and you know you just left English shores and you just found that what the world's got to work left your own devices you know what was it like then could you function okay on stage we always did the show you know because we were serious about that so we'd never go on stoned or you know good lesson didn't we was touring with the police and we were touring around south of France the synchronicity to and I think there's XTC XTC and squeeze that's it and I think Lombritters and so I would just remember me standing at the side of the stage while squeezes on and there's changing over I just remember piano being brought to the front all the road crew at the back you know shifting everything around Jules is playing away and somebody's thrown a can and it's kind of flying through through the air and I'm thinking oh god this is going to be horrible and as it happens it's just looked up caught the can mid-air you know oh I'd drink for the piano but I'm fucking carried on we'd all been smoking before and you know it was after a sound check and Miles Copeland had come around he was going to rain so the gigs off so Stuart Copeland had come in with a bag of weed so we'd all so we were all smoking and of course we were off our tits and then me and Miles Copeland going do I see blue skies so the gig was back on and we were all off our tits and they were filming it for Urga Music which was a massive documentary that went in the cinemas so when you see the finished thing you see Sting go he forwarded it and he introduced it to us and nothing and then you see me and him going he's stoned and paranoid and we had to go on and do our stuff and I just remember it's playing the way I look I'm looking over him like and then we find out now they're booing you with a whistling they were whistling because they couldn't hear us because we were muttering too quickly who's the best who's the best you've ever seen play live Stevie Wonder's pretty fabulous yeah you're tight with Stevie Wonder I love Stevie Wonder you don't do a song with Stevie I've done several and I did the version of Big Brother with Kulio he was on it as well he'd promised to play harp on it for me and I sent it to him and he lost it he's just somewhere he needs a to-go he's looking for his to-go I can't find it so yeah what else have we done I've covered a couple of Stevie Wonder songs which is a pretty difficult thing to do it is unbelievable yeah in a band you do very superstitious fuck off you do it because it's actually not a tune it's a brilliant performance and that's what Stevie Wonder's good at what about Tracy Chapman did she ever cross her paths she used to release her albums but never quite Fasca yeah I remember Fasca it was a good song but we've kind of met everybody and we've worked with everyone in Reggae we did an album called The Fathers album where after we'd done Labour Love series and we'd played their stuff covered our heroes music then we got all them to do UB40 songs who would you have lived to play for about three years most of our heroes sure so there's not many things to wish for musically what's the goals then for the future obviously when things all come back up what's the plans then a new album when's that getting released as soon as we can get in and record it we wrote the tracks well the lyrics just before lockdown wasn't it we went to Tenor Reef just spent two weeks writing lyrics we came out with about 15 songs and then we had enough to do to play in Puerto Rico like I said in Brazil and then we were all locked down so literally since we wrote the lyrics we haven't had a chance to put it all down I've demoed some of it and the music's really quite different so I'm really excited about it actually what's the for going forward then your album coming out everything getting released is it just three years now in the band there's ten piece band so you get ten then with the biggest loudest reggae band in the world nothing's ever changed then there's just the original singers from UB40 if you go and see the other UB40 there's none of the original singers there it's like a tribute band yeah it's kind of like a tribute band in fact there are better tribute bands I've got to say that really there are better tribute bands that sink dunking off the stage in the shadow of a dead is it making you sad though thinking about it it's embarrassing it's knuckle-buttingly embarrassing I've watched them and they're terrible I don't like saying it but they're awful the music's good because it's all on a loop what that means is the drummer he takes all of the stuff off the album and puts it on a loop so he goes on a sampler so they've got keyboards brass, everything all coming through a sampler so it sounds good but then you've got these people you've never heard of singing you know on top whereas you come and say yes you get me an Australia original vocalist with what I would say is the hottest, tightest reggae band in the world on the road at this moment the songs that you've sung are timeless like Eric Carioca bar anything you've heard you will see people singing them so the name the songs will never ever go away how does that make you feel the problem is the bad band will never go away because people still want to see them they call themselves UB40 but they don't differentiate they don't say featuring blah blah blah whereas we say UB40 with Allie and Astro so that people know that the original singers are there I heard Johnny Adair on the show he gets shot in the head at one of your concerts in Belfast how did you know what happened we heard after this I mean we've had people there was a woman in America who had a gun with one bullet in it and she was aiming at us while we were performing and it was one of our, it was Lloydie he's passed away now Lloydie but he saw her pointing his gun and he ran out with another security man and I got her and it was in the chamber so she was going to have a pop at one of us that's why it's a big dud it's a big dud seriously but that's America in it that's why the Beatles stopped playing and John was right because they were terrified every time a cracker went off one time we played Texas in Belfast and playing in this bar it was about 2,000 people you had cowboys jumping up and plowing on the bar every was a great time and some girl from the university has come up with this flyer and it was about a Ku Klux Klan I was having a garrotting school children there there's going to be marching through town the following week so she says she couldn't mention that Brally us of course so I'm there in front of the stage I've just been told that the Ku Klux Klan intend to march through town next week we're not going to let this happen are we expecting them to go nooo you could have heard a rap part so I was like this next one is called one in two back of the stage but to be fair after the show because they went listen through it was a multi racial audience but that for me was a reality check not everybody likes what you're saying mate so so yeah I was stuck in my mind so you're off the week now Ali you don't smoke anymore now I've recently stopped how are you finding it? I'm fine I was on it 12 years I thought I fucking struggled it was hard to tobacco I found harder to come off but I'd done that six months before I stopped the week how do you find that do you think going on stage if you're going into a clear mind I never went on stage so you're always on the ball anyway I mean in the 80s we'd go on sober but then I'd have two bottles of wine and four lines of coke and so by the time the end of the gig we'd just come off but we always went on sober because we are that two pain customers you know so that's not like rock and roll that's like reggae and roll then I think you've said that in a number of years before it's about what a career honestly to be sitting across from me speaking to you is it's phenomenal because your music's been played through my household since the day I was born and still gets played my mum likes her grey goose she'll bang on side big love to you mum, for us but for coming on and telling your stories I've thoroughly enjoyed that great to meet you I can't wait to see what you bring for the future would you like to finish up on anything anything to promote social media anything to match you'd be a social media what's the social just that you'd be 40 is that e-mail, is that a website that's got all the live shows on so ub40.org has got all your live shows everything coming up, everything fresh perfect getting tuned guys I want to leave the link in the description so for people to check it out it's ub40, it's not as if he's a bat he's never been fucking away man so we refuse to go online but absolute pleasure guys God bless yous and respect man thank you