 Okay, hello everyone and thank you very much for coming to this webinar on open education. Does it work for iCare educators and learners? My name is Sally Parsley, I'm the technical lead on the open education program at the International Center for Eye Health and I'm hosting this session today. So before we get started I just have a little bit of housekeeping information. We're going to hear our two presentations first. They're each about 10 to 15 minutes so it'll take about half an hour in total and then we're going to have a short Q&A session for the last 15 minutes. So during the talks please send in your questions using the question box on the webinar menu tab and I'll collate them and ask them to these questions to our two presenters. You can download the presentations from the handout section of the webinar menu tab. This will open up the menu options by clicking on the orange arrow on the tab and that's also where you see the chat menu where you can ask the question, the menu we can ask us questions. And finally we are recording this session and I will be sharing a link to the video and also to transcript in a few days time. Okay so let's get started. This is the second in a series of five monthly webinars that we are hosting at the International Center for Eye Health and the aim of the webinars is to explore how we as eye health educators can use digital technologies, the internet and this concept of open education to innovate and improve our practice and address some of the really big challenges that we know are currently facing eye care training around the world. You know issues such as the need for more trained professionals to deliver universal eye health and the lack of and maldistribution of faculty and resources. So we looked in these issues in some detail in our first webinar in January and if you missed it and are interested to see it you can view it and download it from our web page. If I just go back, there is the link there, ich.lshtm.acoerwebinarist and you can download this presentation to get a hold of the link. Okay so today we are going to move on from looking at that big picture about open education and the need for innovation in eye care training to look at some of the evidence that research has been finding about the impact of open education activities on learners and educators, the benefits and the challenges. So we are going to hear from our very own Dr. Daksha Patel about the experiences here in our open education for eye health program and we are really delighted that we have also have Dr. Rob Farrow from the Open University who is going to talk about the work of the Open Education Research Hub, OER Hub and summarize some of the really interesting results they have found in a recent OER impact research study. So thank you for joining us Rob. So before we get started, I just wanted to summarize what we understand is open education. It is a little bit of jargon. So we thought this would be a useful thing to go through just ahead of the two presentations. So in essence, we can define open education as activity aimed at reducing barriers to participation in education and learning, by reducing the cost of education or by reaching learners at a distance or by removing the need for prior qualifications to access a course. Open education is not a new idea. So for example, the public library movement of the 19th century, such as this Andrew Carnegie Library from Trinidad that is showing on the screen, it gave many working people access to printed information for the first time. Radio and TV have been used for many years to give health information talks and even the University of Buenos Aires in Argentina engaged in open education by allowing entry to anyone with a secondary school degree since the early 20th century. So open education often makes use of technology, but it's also about cultural issues as you can see from those examples, you know about empowering learners or improving the equity of educational provision. So with rising access to digital technologies and the internet, the focus of a lot of open education activity has moved online and digital and that's what kind of what we're looking at today in terms of impact. Open online courses such as the ones we're developing at ICH and open educational resources which Rob is going to talk about. Now these can be defined as digital materials which anyone can download, use, change and then share again for free without asking for permission from whoever originally published the material. And this is done through a special copyright license which is often creative commons, that's the most popular one and that's the one we use. So I've kind of raced through the definitions of open education. I hope that's helpful for you in our two talks and I hope you can start to see how we feel as proponents of open education that it can play a significant role in shaping how we address the issues that are facing education globally today. So now I'm going to hand over to Daksha, those of you who are new to the International Center for Eye Health might not know that she's our e-learning director and she's been with us for many years, firstly as our director of our MSc in community eye health for more than 14 years where she heard about the frustrations and challenges that more than 300 students from all over the world were experiencing in their own settings around eye care training and learning. Before that Daksha was actually an ophthalmologist in Kenya for nearly 10 years and laterally since 2014 she's been our director of e-learning and has been grasping funding opportunities to develop e-learning and open education at ICH. Thank you Sally and thank you for the overview on what we sort of covered on open education last week. So building on from that I thought what we'd do is discuss very briefly the relevance of open education particularly for eye care and what have we learned so far from the experiences that we've had since we started to dabble in open education and then looking forward to where can open education in eye care be used to support curriculum development of learning resources and also keeping in mind that at all points we want to ensure that there's quality in the content that we produce. So from that perspective I take you back to this slide that we had last time looking at the magnitude of visual impairment which is 285 million people but as you can see from this rather distorted map that if we go by this where are these blind and visually impaired people we find that there are the countries that are shown in rather swollen perspective is where they are mostly that's where the visually impaired people are whereas you can see within the Americas and in Europe that these have shrunk down quite a lot from its actual size because the numbers of visual impairment is less so you can see uneven distribution of the burden of visual impairment across the world. Now compare this with this image and this is an image that's showing us how is public health spending that is taking place around the world and then it's complete opposite picture so the money that is being spent would now give the Americas particularly the United States it's much more enlarged and they have a large budget for spending in public health similar to Europe and when you look at Africa and India and even China and even to some extent within the islands around the Pacific you find that the funding is almost non-existent in those settings so as a result of this we find particularly in eye care that the distribution of ophthalmologists per million population is again so varied where you find places around many parts of Africa where you can have less than one one ophthalmologist per million population compared to many parts within Russia where you have over a hundred ophthalmologists per million population and this disparity in the distribution of health providers is further seen in this mapping survey that we carried out across 20 African countries and what we found that of course what's immediately obvious is that there is no one carder that provides the service but there's a range of different carders and again their distribution is so varied between urban and rural regions of the countries so we're faced with a range of challenges we have a wide range of practitioners and wide range of teams that provide services a large number of them work in isolated remote settings and these are often the allied eye health workers across the board what we had found was that the clinicians develop as trainers and the resources they have are very limited and when you look at what continuing medical education is it's often deprioritized when looked at the clinical activities that need to be conducted looking at the curriculum that these practitioners are trained with they're mostly clinically driven that is looking and focused on the one patient in front of them which is correct but at the same time we feel there's an urgent need to also look at the public eye health approach and at present there is limited or no resources in that at local level it certainly lacks trained faculty and there overall there's very few resources available to people to use to teach public eye health so coming from that perspective we asked ourselves about three years ago can open education work for eye care and what we did look and know that we had is that we wanted the content to be purposive and practical for a wide range of practitioners in the field we knew that the content had to focus on key conditions that can be used to manage avoidable causes of visual impairment which is like cataract and refractive error and the technology that we chose to use was online and open education gave us that added extra to allow us to share adapt particularly to localize the knowledge where it was needed how did we go about doing this well we were funding funded by seeing is believing a standard charter project and we were able to develop a six-week online course we pilot tested that course in three countries in Kenya Ghana and Botswana and across a wide range of practitioners from ophthalmologists optometrists clinical officers ophthalmic nurses and even refractionists so we took what was known to us which is our face-to-face content that we had tried and tested and used for many years we took 60 hours of that content we redeveloped it to have an open online course made up from that of course with the Creative Commons license and then shared it with our partners in these three countries and we took a bit of learning from that and all this was funded through these bodies along with the London School what we then did was we created the content with this online and used the specific elements on planning and managing cataract and refractive services so making it very specific and we delivered it to all these cudders within these settings each of our country facilitator was then a key partner in making sure that the content was made available to the right people in the right locations we did a pre and post course survey and a follow-up one year later on what was happening what we found with the 88 participants that we enrolled in these three countries for our pilot project we found 83 percent this was their first online course experience we're very encouraged that 64 percent actually completed this course 32 percent completed more than half of this course and only about four percent were unable to start the course when looking back on the post course survey it was only one person who actually felt that by participating that this was not a good experience for them so we were very encouraged by that strong agreement on good learning experience we followed up a year later to see and define very closely what were the key characteristics of some of our completers and we looked and developed some case studies around that and very often we found that many of these practitioners were based in remote settings they were completely challenged by both internet and electricity access and they worked at weekends and at night to do the course they used a variety of tools which is 3Gs and smart phones and the reason why they did it was they felt it was a very important source of information for themselves and to share and they used the content to apply it to their practice which is to understand local cataract backlog plan service to increase their cataract surgical rate and to address patient barriers so they were very specific on how they use this course the partial completers had a very similar profile but they were very strategic learners they only downloaded what they wanted and they could go back to use it as as they required their challenge was their workload the clinical workload set them back and personal motivation and time management issues were raised as major concerns our course facilitators in each of these countries felt that this was a great way to move forward and actually felt it was a great way to involve people in remote places and the relevance was that it was applicable at the practical level and huge numbers wanted to participate but what we had only done was a pilot so we then went on to develop this course as a MOOC on future land platform and eventually had over 5000 people who joined a large number of them were active learners many of them were from low and middle income countries and this for us has been very encouraging and we are at present running our third run of the MOOC this year the key takeaways from the follow-up of the people that participate on our courses has been that the materials were useful they could be adapted it has changed their attitudes towards empowering patients have developed specific school screening programs for visual impairment and are now monitoring their cataract surgical rate so what is done we are often trapped within this conventional relationship in education and this is not just specific for african universities this can be found across a wide range of settings that people come to one institution to get the knowledge they require what we are wanting to do is if we can with open education replace that with a network relationship and make the sharing of knowledge easier and practice improves what through the sharing of that knowledge there's a lot of potential for open education whereby we can take this generic content that we've created and of course enable it for reuse adapted for local settings increase its accessibility so through online but also through other technologies and this includes now loading it on to USBs but also embedding it into curriculum and this process has already begun for us we're now working with three partners again in Africa in Nigeria in Kenya and at the University of Cape Town in South Africa what they're doing is they're taking the course that we've got they're localizing that content using the Creative Commons license they're adapting it for again an online version for that local setting but also using that content to facilitate and support the teaching that's taking place within their classrooms and they're providing it accreditation so what this is giving us now is that we've got a framework within which we're looking at the course through this Creative Commons license to give us products platforms partnerships policies and promotions to make sure that we've got relevant content selection our experts are contributing it and therefore providing quality partnerships with educators are ensuring that it's going to become relevant for the users increasing digital literacy and this webinar is part of that package that we're developing uh the adaptation by those experts at a local level and aligning them with their local curriculum and this is where we feel that there is lots of quality measures that allow us to keep improving and embedding the course in a practical manner so in conclusion there's a growing demand for knowledge delivered outside the classroom open education is driven by the Creative Commons license and its use reuse adapt and share all its key strengths and certainly this has allowed us to shift the balance a little bit and there's a lot of ownership of learning particularly as people are taking on and embracing self-directed and self-paced learning we believe the content has a lot of merit in how it's been selected the completion as a marker is in is insufficient we believe that there would be strategic users of the course who would use what they want and and that is also a practical for their own settings our key interest is to maintain quality for the resource and ensuring this quality is through experts and use of peers so in summary I think we're we're expanding our open education program to involve a lot more different subject areas over the next few years so we certainly believe that if we've lit the candle there will be others who can take the light and share them in other places so thank you very much for this opportunity and for listening thank you so much dacha I think one of the key things for me from your talk was how learners and educated are empowered in some ways to take control of their their own self-directed learning okay so I am just going to we're now going to hand over to Rob so I'm just going to introduce Rob to you so he and he's going to present on what the research into OER impact has been finding through this OER research hub so Rob is a philosopher into disciplinary researcher and educational technologist as a research fellow at the Institute of Education Technology at the Open University here in the UK he's been involved in a range of projects allowing him to develop expertise in accessibility evaluation mobile learning and the use of technology to support research communities and most recently open education um Rob is a key member of the open education research hub which is leading research into the impact of open educational resources on teaching and learning practices and in the OER research hub he's built a strong personal network through collaboration working with a range of key stakeholders to research non-formal and institutional use of OER he's also acted as a research consultant for the ROR I never pronounced this right the R OER 4D project which is based at the University of Cape Down in South Africa and which is looking into the impact of OER use in the global south and he's also worked for the Open Knowledge Foundation his research interests are wide-ranging gravitating mostly around communication and ethics in policy formation decision making knowledge transmission and teaching and learning thank you so much for joining us Rob I'm going to now switch over control to you if I can just find you okay thank you very much um thank and thanks for the invitation to come and speak with you today um what I was going to do was basically give you a kind of overview of some of the work that we've been doing over the last few years and um include a kind of um I suppose some of the findings that will maybe offer some context to the data discussed in the previous presentation so if you're on Twitter you might want to follow the project it's OER underscore hub we're a team of five at the Institute of Educational Technology at the Open University and again we're all there on Twitter individually as well if you want to connect with us that's a good way to do it so um we've been doing quite a lot of stuff over the last few years and I suppose it's fair to say I could I could speak for a lot longer about some of the findings that we've had um one way to just give you an overview is to think about stuff we've done over the last sort of six years um starting in 2012 when OER research hub was first constituted as a project through to the work that we're doing at the moment so to start off with I'm just going to talk about the first three years if you like with the sort of core impact research stuff for OER research hub so um we worked in collaboration in this project with lots of people who were involved in um producing and using open educational resources and in our collaboration model we had four sectors of focus so higher education schools what they call k-12 in the USA community colleges or further education and informal or non-formal learning and um when we were funded to do this work the um there was a lot of talk and around the potential of OER to transform education and widen participation and so on and so in this project we looked at 11 hypotheses each one um designed to focus in on the evidence base for these particular claims um about the potential of OER uh so we built quite a big set of data this was a global project we had um more than 20 surveys did more than 60 interviews various focus groups collected impact statements and so on um I'll go and talk about a bit more about this data towards the end and you can see here that we had um I think it was about 180 countries represented as part of that data set but predominantly um based in the USA because that was where the focus for the work was that's where the funder was based and that's where a lot of our collaboration uh collaboration partners are based um the data that came out of that um part of the work we did um was mapped and um we did some data visualization with some of it as well and if you want to check any of that out it's OER impact map we also took some of that um survey data and um made an experimental tool so that others could use it so rather than just releasing the data set openly we also um created a tool for people to explore the data themselves um if you want to read the reports themselves um they're available for free on our website um the evidence report summarizes for each hypothesis um I'll talk a bit about some of the findings from this at the end of this presentation so uh we had a change of focus so rather than being purely focused on um research into OER which is open educational resources uh we widened that focus to include um other aspects of open education such as MOOC and open educational practices and so on but increasingly we've also taken on a kind of um research capacity building role and a leadership role in this area there's actually still a quite a new area um open education um and methods for doing research into something like what's the impact of adopting OER um are not established so there's quite a lot of um experimental and exploratory work going on around this um so under our new kind of aspect as OER hub we have this broader focus I'll just tell you a little bit about some of the projects that we've got going on at the moment um the biz MOOC project is an EU funded project um which is focused on the potential of um MOOC for um learning about business and learning the kind of skills that are useful in business across Europe the explorer project um is about producing an open online course to train teachers in the practicalities of OER reuse we also run the uh GOGM which is the global OER graduate network which is a network of PhD students involved in research projects around the implementation and evaluation of um OER in educational institutions um um building this network is um quite an interesting um aspect of what we're doing at the moment um we're aspiring to get um I think about 100 people uh as part of that network at the moment we have 45 and you can see here that they're they come from a range of different countries they had our first alumni um assigned to come through now um this work as well as um the OER research hub work was funded by the Hewlett Foundation who um really take take a lead in supporting OER research and OER programs around the world. We also have the opening educational practices in Scotland project um this is um about collecting evidence around the the way that people use um OER in practice um and thinking about um you know some of the assumptions that we make about what people actually do with with OER um we also have the OER world map project to this this kind of develop some of the earlier mapping work that we've done um the idea here is to create a database of um OER activity around the world so one of the kind of um criticisms people make of open educational resources that can be hard to find hard to find good quality um resources in the area that you need so um part of the approach here is to create a better way of indexing and a better information architecture about the resources themselves um but it's also about putting um people in touch with each other and um supporting the development of communities um around open educational resources. Another piece of work which you might be interested in which we did um we did last year still being written up is to have an ongoing kind of consultation with um the open education community really about what the next step should be how best to organize and what two areas to prioritize research in. We just launched a survey today for a new project um UFAT which is open online flexible and technology enhanced models um this is collecting examples of best practice for sustainable business models in open education um you can read if you like this textbook we've produced on um the process of open research and how to sort of become an open researcher um this is another aspect of the work that we've been doing um but just to give you a flavor of some of the um sort of headlines if you like coming out of um some of this work going back to this uh dataset that I mentioned before there are some things that we can say which I think uh echo some of the findings that actually was talking about um so when we asked people um including both educators and students in the institutions which we're called calling formal learners here um 37 percent of educators said using OER improved student satisfaction and more than half of formal learners agreed with that uh we had about a quarter of educators and about a third of formal learners say that uh OER use um results in better test scores it's difficult to triangulate that data because it's quite hard to get institutions to share something like um pass and failure rates for their students but it's a finding found consistently um across lots of different surveys um another area that I think um is something that's quite interesting to reflect on we we asked people um who use OER whether they adapt resources to fit their needs and by that we meant something like do you engage in the behaviors that you're enabled to do through open licensing like remixing and reusing and so on and this came out nearly 80 percent and in in one one cohort which was the non-formal students that was as high as 85 percent so there's an interesting question there about oh well did they mean the same thing that we meant by adaptation um possibly they meant I just took something and made it fit you know with what I needed for um it's often said that low cost is the reason that people use OER we didn't find much support for that um I think freely available online was probably a more significant um element and when you look at the number of student learners who are not registered for a course of study let's say they're using OER that was as high as 75 percent but you might say at this point well you know what's OER in a way does it have to be the stuff that's in an OER repository or that's designed to be used as OER um we found that a lot of people especially teachers are actually using OER for a quite a wide variety of reasons it could be just to brush up on something quickly reading Wikipedia it could be that they're planning a lesson and looking for inspiration for something you know a new angle they can take on it they're very unlikely to actually type OER into a search engine but they're looking online for materials that are freely available all the time and learners and educators are both doing this and one of the things we're interested in at the open university is the extent to which people can be uh encouraged into formal study through the use of open educational resources and the OER has the open learn platform which is the OER repository there um you get an interesting sort of polarization around this people who've used these kind of resources roughly say 20% say it makes them more likely to go on to formal study but 20% say it makes them less likely you can interpret that in terms of a sort of quality issue um but it's not maybe not so much that as people having their learning needs met by what they're finding free online i'm not feeling any need to go to any extra sort of level with that um this is not my uh graphic this is um someone else's there's a citation on the side um but I thought it might give you a sense of how um there's lots of different elements to all this and different things that are happening and different layers to all this um when we talk about something like impact what we imply is a kind of nice neat causal relationship so we did a and b happened um but obviously these things are much more complicated than that and um furthermore I'd want to say I suppose that um most of the time impact is contextual so the difference it makes is dependent on what the context is like um and I would I'd be tempted to sort of frame this in terms of openness itself being um being basically directed toward removing barriers and an increasing freedom and increasing people's autonomy so the more free you are there's lots of different ways that you could realize that so it's quite hard to say well this is the result that will happen if you introduce OER um in some cases um the priority is more to do with if you like not really changing the way people teach and learn but doing the same thing with open resources so rather than using proprietary materials they might um start using um a free or open textbook this is a big thing in the USA where um the cost of textbooks can be huge um other communities are more interested in the if you like more kind of revolutionary aspects or more radical aspects of this which lets people take more control over what they're doing and how they're teaching and how they're learning but I suppose I'd want to also sort of offer the caveat to that that that you still need to be able to um be a good learner to access a lot of this stuff openly even if you're an educator who's interested in using it there are certain skills around it and partly their skills like this sorry their conditions like access and accessibility do you have an internet connection can you use a computer and so on um but it's also things like do you have the confidence and the mindset um do you have the right language skills the right kind of time management skills the right digital and critical literacy and these kind of things so even in an area like um medical education where obviously quality is paramount there can still be a role for OER in supporting these kind of secondary skills and the sort of culture of learning that's um that's desirable I would say so um so yeah I think that's I think it should stop because otherwise it could go on for a long time so um thanks for listening and I'll take any any questions that you have um the slides are there for anyone who wants to um have have a look through and there's some links on there to follow at the end here you can see um I've given um links for another couple of open education research groups the open education group in the USA and the war4d project um plus a bunch of links where you can check out more stuff from OER hub we have a long list of publications if you want to find out some of the nitty gritty details um and uh yeah get in touch if you have any questions okay thank you so much Rob um that was so interesting I'm just going to take control back yeah thank you so much OER research hub is doing such interesting work and so many areas and just small team I don't know I don't know how you're doing it and that was and that was a really interesting point you made at the end about the need for OER users to have good learner skills as well that was um there's something we're definitely starting to think about here yeah um so I've we have a question in from Lindsay syndrome which is for you Rob and that is um are there any GOGN members in Malaysia um is it only open and is it only open to PhD researchers and alumni thank you so I don't know if talking my head if we've got anyone in Malaysia um I can check and let you know um we do accept people who are not necessarily doing a PhD and there are different levels of membership as well so um you anyone can join just as an associate so anyone who's just interested in that in that area wants to stay in touch with the project um but um we have some master's students who are thinking about going on to doctoral study for instance um so you could definitely join it's just a question of what um specific role you'd want to join as um it might be easiest to join as an associate first and you get all the emails and everything and then um uh you have access to the group and you have access to the to the staff to talk about where you might want to go with it next um so yeah just just uh get in touch with the website and and go from there thanks Rob and actually I I'm an I'm an associate member I think recently fan off of defining you and um it's it's been a very interesting there's good emails uh Lindsay I if you're interested I recommend it it's a very good resource um so I think I have a couple of questions actually um for both of you so I'll I'll ask both questions and then I'll hand the mic to Daksha and give Rob a little time to think about his answers so um my first question is which of the reported findings from the impact studies the benefits and the challenges did you find the most um surprising or inspiring which one really made you think oh I didn't I didn't expect to see that and the second question is a bit more wooly and it's about this um idea of community of users how important do you feel the community of users is for generating sort of long-term and sustainable impacts from over there I hope that's hope that may even make sense Daksha um thanks Sally well I guess when we first did the pilot study we were we were going into territory that was totally unknown to us and what did surprise me was number of people who had never done an online course before and um it it made me and what the level of satisfaction they got out of that new experience so it kind of uh was a breakthrough into a completely new medium of education that had not been explored in iCare particularly so for that reason I thought that stood out as the big flag from which we now went on to develop a lot more other online content and using the open education principle and the second point that that um the URA is the importance of community of OER users and the way we're going about this is that it's it's important to have this community and particularly we want to link that community with the body of experts that we have in our subject area so it's it's a very specific and strategic approach to enhance our community through the educators who can directly influence and shape the curriculum so I guess yes the community is very important and and it allows us both a top down and a bottom up approach so of course we've got the curriculum with its accreditation and the educators but then from a bottom down it's the users and how they're sharing that content with their own teams and that creating that whole network is is the way forward we think to strengthen iCare education thank you actually yes yes definitely um Rob yes so um a couple of things I suppose um as examples of potentially surprising findings um firstly I would say there's a kind of contradiction between um the professed beliefs and the behaviors of people who um sort of advocate for open educational resources so what I mean by that is um when you ask people um do you believe that you should be um publishing your resources uh in an OER repository on a creative commons license and doing it all by the book so to speak um about about two thirds agree with that but when it comes to um do you actually do that we've got about 12 percent something like that so lots of people think they should be doing it but they don't do it um and that's quite an interesting um sort of finding to me because probably that's an interesting thing anyway that contradiction um but also if you know you can imagine that there were just these kind of um these kind of cohorts or very committed open education um advocates who were just doing everything the way that they should but most people are actually just kind of online looking for stuff and if it's useful they use it and they're maybe a bit worried about what they can and can't share and sort of um in risk of violating copyright so that kind of contradiction in in between belief and behavior I find quite interesting um another example that surprised me I suppose was um when it came to so some of the work I did was looking at policy and OER policies that were if you like supposedly springing up um to support this kind of growing OER movement it actually turned out to be really hard to find examples of where there's been some sort of piloting or innovation which has subsequently led to um a policy being put in place in an institution to support OER um and what it revealed was that actually a lot of this stuff is happening um sort of below the radar and it's kind of informally shared and people are saying this is a useful resource but it's copyrighted so you know I can only share this so much with you and I'll do it kind of privately on email and this kind of thing so um what I take from something like that is that people are just using stuff you know they're out there they're doing it already um and um most of the time they don't really care very much about what the license says on it um but you know in reality the license is important because that's what gives you the legal protection but the the copyright laws that we have and if you like our sort of channels for disseminating information are based you know the legal frameworks are based in you know the the 20th if not the 19th century so um because we have this ability now to reproduce information anywhere in the world pretty much instantly and at marginal cost so anywhere in the world we know not everywhere um but soon it will be everywhere um you know I don't think that our kind of frameworks have actually caught up with that kind of technical development yeah absolutely I mean I would really strongly really agree with you there that would be our experience as well in fact we sometimes talk about whether talk about creative comments actually confuses people and this focus on copyright that were forced into as institutions through copyright and IPR law is a real barrier and so thinking about that um from a kind of going back to this idea of well you've got the people who just want to keep the system the way it is and replace all the textbooks with open ones versus people who actually really want to change the way that it works I think it goes back to that idea of copyright as a kind of instrument of control effectively absolutely yeah and it's a sort of terms of our employment that we use it it's it's embedded in it's in there unfortunately I could chat for hours as well unfortunately we are out of time so I'm going to have to stop the questions there thank you um thank you first to both of our presenters um I'm trying to uh but thank you both to Rob and Daksha for giving up your time to talk today um two really interesting presentations um here at ICH we very much want to thank our funders who make all of our work possible and to let our uh participants know that we are um I hope you've enjoyed today and got useful information out of it and hopefully perhaps been inspired to look into OER and open education a bit more and maybe even join us next time um on March the 15th where we have a very practical session on finding and using open online courses which will be led by Joe Stroud who is our e-learning manager here at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and we'll also be talking a little bit more about this dreaded copyright issue um with a member of our team Astrid Lek who's going to come along and talk about that so um thanks again everyone um I think I've covered everything Daksha yeah thank you very much yeah thank you and uh and uh and to our participants yeah take everyone goodbye bye bye bye