 it is on the hour by my clock and so I think we will get started and I'm going to go ahead and make my screen really big. So welcome everybody to this training on coaching. I'm really excited about this one. It's a subject that I'm really interested in and I think it's really important for everyone, all of the managers at GitLab to be able to coach their team members and hopefully by the end of this session we will have given you some useful hints and tips and guidance on how you can do that. So our agenda is we're going to talk about what coaching is and I don't mean that in a patronising way but I think it's good just to have a very brief overview of what coaching is all about and how you can use it and when you should use it, when you shouldn't use it and then we're going to make it a bit more real and we're going to do a role play with a few scenarios on how to coach in a particular situation and how not to coach and then we'll open it up for discussion and then finally finishing with some key takeaways from today. I want to bring up the discussion slide at this point because there is one thing that I want you to specifically pay attention to and that is the last role play scenario because we're going to be asking you what was wrong with that so we really didn't need you to make sure you're paying attention and then we're going to ask you if you have any stories that you can share of when coaching rather than managing made a positive impact and also how you would coach a person who has a fixed mindset and some of you may have come into these situations or have some stories to share around that. Now I've had some help with this session and Jacob has already is in already in on this because he joined the call a bit earlier but I think everybody on the call knows Nadia as the one of the recruiters but you may not know that she is actually also an executive coach a trained executive coach so it made absolute sense in my mind to get her to collaborate with me on this so and I think she probably is the best person to talk about what coaching is all about so Nadia over to you. Thanks Abby hey everybody thanks for joining us today and has any of you received any coaching before or maybe either received or given coaching Jacob I see you let me find more hands sir yes I'm aware I don't see a lot of more hands and but my favorite sort of statement about coaching is very much it's not telling people what to do so the one that John flatter flattery mentioned there it's coaching is not telling people what to do it's giving them a chance to examine what they doing in light of their intentions there's a few other quotes here that that I feel is very relevant to to what it is about and then there's a lot of different types of coaching but for us this is really focusing nearly on on team coaching so as a manager how you can coach your team here at GitLab and what your responsibility is in terms of the coach in that setting some of the different types of coaching is executive coaching said I think as mentioned before that he's being coached currently by an executive coached performance coaching skills coaching career coaching which I've been involved in as well in the past I'm personal in life coaching very different to the coaching we'll be doing here today and business coaching it's also a shared responsibility and the coach leads the process while the employee leads the change so that's something important to just keep in mind and and then why managers should be getting involved with this is it would ultimately improve performance which is which is our goal and coaching is a goal focused or a solution focused approach and Abby am I yeah I'm next still so when we should be coaching and these are examples of when when when we should be coaching but keep in mind there's a lot of other times where you can also use coaching instead of training especially in even in engineering solutions to lead someone to find a solution instead of just giving them the answer we have a few great examples of that in our teams already and but I'm just I'm just want to highlight that so under performance is something Abby is going to dig into a little bit more daring during the slides and also adapting to change and learning in a new workflow especially here at get lab some individuals do experience onboarding is a bit of a shock so they might need some coaching in terms of the change that they go through when they when they join our organization and understanding this workflow and it might not be a training opportunity it might actually be a great coaching opportunity to let them explore explore the change as well as with career developments as we grow there's some great opportunities to let your team grow and to grow into the right directions there's nice new change that that Eric has mentioned in terms of the engineering teams and the two different sort of growth opportunities for them so great career development opportunities there as well and as well as managing relationships and stakeholders Abby over to you yep um so whoops going a bit too fast um so coaching I think Nadia and I and perhaps most of us who's been involved or received coaching um have I think it's a great thing um but there are certain situations where coaching isn't appropriate and it should be avoided um and this slide is from I should mention this slide is from rework with google um that I've mentioned in the previous session and they've listed out some examples there but I also want to add that if there is an individual who lacks knowledge skill or ability in a certain area they need training um not coaching and there is a difference between the two um also you as a manager if you are under pressure um to honor if somebody um isn't performing or whatever and you feel that you can't give enough of your time to the individual for coaching then you shouldn't do it um it is a commitment it does take time um and your focus and energy as well as the coachy um so it is a very very much a shared um process in that respect um also if the issue perhaps is a lack of resources um the team for example is too small to handle the massive massive amount of work let's say um then that is when coaching isn't really going to help um in that situation you just need to hire more people perhaps um and also as well if you're a manager the person might not might not be getting enough of your direction um so that is a situation where coaching isn't really ideal in that um scenario and also if the coachy themselves isn't brought into the process um of coaching it's an opportunity for them to reflect on their actions um and attitudes and if they're not brought into that process it's just not going to work and finally um even though um I've read that coaching apparently isn't rocket science um if you lack coaching skills as a manager you may become frustrated and then just revert to start to tell the person what they should be doing so there are some skills that you do need um for coaching which we'll talk about um a little bit but I wanted to um just point out as well finally that if there are any legal risks involved with somebody um or a situation that you might encounter then coaching um isn't really the right thing to be doing does anybody have any questions um at this point and if you could unmute yourself or I can't actually see you because I've got my screen really big okay I'll take that as not yet um so moving on then we want to talk about how we can coach um or how you can coach at GitLab and I think coaching as Nadia said you can apply it in all of those different situations like career development and learning a new workflow but we wanted to particularly focus on underperformance um because in our process in the handbook on the underperformance process we do encourage managers to do coaching um as well before going to the more formal PIP process um so we thought this would be a good one to kind of take a bit more of a deeper dive um into and I've actually um I did a bit of reading around this and I found um quite a good article which I've linked um in the notes on this slide and I'd like to talk a bit about that so um the first thing um that it recommends is to actually um explain um why something needs to be changed to the individual and this is about you know laying out the situation um talking about how whatever it is is affecting the rest of the team how it affects the company and how a change um that needs to happen the ultimate goal um with this is to try to find the root cause of the situation because trying to solve symptoms um of this just isn't going to work and it might happen again because you've not managed to get to the root cause um of the problem um so after you've explained it you've laid out the situation you've laid out laid out what the issue is then you can ask the individual to confirm that they understand um that it's important that a change needs to happen and it's also um their responsibility um to make the change and to come up with um potential solutions to solve the problem and that's when you've moved to the third stage which is to involve so the two of you can collaborate and come up with some ideas um on how um you can potentially come to a solution investigating the root cause and then look at setting goals and those could be um smart objectives um or smart goals um so they're specific measurable um attainable realistic um and time-bounded and once that happens after a while you'll begin to acknowledge and appreciate um and recognize the positive movement towards achieving the goal and this is all part of these coaching sessions um that you would have with the individual um but the purpose of it is to make sure that you are asking as the manager asking the right sorts of questions so usually starting with how what where and why um also probably the biggest element of this is to listen um and that sounds obvious but it's actually quite difficult to do particularly as a manager you may have more experience you may have more knowledge and you may be able to tell the person or be tempted to tell the person what they need to do and the steps they need to do to fix whatever it is um that needs to be fixed so that all sounds very easy doesn't it and I think um what we would like to do myself and Nadia is to kind of make this a bit more real I say real because this is this is a role play so that kind of sounds a bit strange to say that but we've come up with a few scenarios and I'll click on my tab I'm going to the top um to try um and demonstrate what we've just talked about um in the last slide and I should say that these are not based on real situations um Nadia and I are kind of playing ourselves um we changed the names um I think Nadia wanted to change the names but anyway they're not based on real situations but they're kind of good examples of how to coach and the kind of things the questions that you need to be asking and and that kind of thing so the first scenario is um to hire for director of back-end engineering and I'm playing the role of a recruiter and Nadia is my manager and in this scenario I'm trying to hire for this role and I do have the the skills and the knowledge to get this done but for some reason I'm just not having any success and Nadia has spotted this she's disappointed um in my performance so far and she's thinking about putting me on a pip if it continues but she wants to try to informally coach me into thinking of new ways um to approach and achieve the goal okay so Nadia are you ready yes I'm ready um Abby how is the search going for the director of back-end engineering oh it's not great I'm just really not seeing um any results um from all the other methods that we've tried the pipeline is very low just not seeing the CVs um that you know that we need to have coming through um what do you think what do you think we can do differently at this stage for this particular position um I think more more direct sourcing of passive candidates perhaps and more looking into companies with similar profiles to GitLab um what what sort of additional platforms do you think we can we can use um I know we've had some success with Stack Overflow in the past that would probably be one thing yeah that sounds like an interesting solution how would you go about adding an additional um an additional supplier to our sourcing platform uh yeah I guess I need to we definitely yeah I definitely need to reach out to to get a contact initially because I know we don't have one um so yeah that would yeah yeah okay that sounds really good are there additional ways that the team or maybe I can support you through this time uh yeah do you know what I I think part of this is because I don't have the time I've been so focused on screening calls um and that's been that's where I've been spending the majority of my time so if I could pass some of them off to Sabrina that would be really great so certainly how much how much time do you think you're going to need Abby um I think probably about 10 hours so that I can do that and then also have time to research into other sources like um meetups and and things like that and tap into those communities okay this sounds really really good I'm excited to see how it works out I've kept some notes on a doc that I'll share with you um and then I'd like to check in how does how does checking in and about two weeks sound yeah okay is this outside of our one-on-one um I'd like to keep this as a as a coaching opportunity through this particular particular situation so we can I'd prefer if we do it outside of our one one and one and not make it task specific okay great so I'm good great thanks Abby okay so that was the first scenario and um I hope that we were able to convey what we were trying to do there was to demonstrate what the goal was as in I'm trying to hire for this position um Nadia was asking me a lot of questions and Nadia is a very experienced recruiter who would know exactly what to do where to go and she didn't give me didn't give that information to me so she was really making me um think about what I needed to do and putting the onus of the goal onto me and and and Abby highlighting here that most of the questions are open-ended so the goal is not to have yes or no answers that's actually why we ask a lot of these how where what why questions um so that they can't answer yes or no you want them to explore their own ideas in this particular scenario yeah and finally I was also um committing to action on my part that I was the one who was and I you know gave the you know that I said that I needed time and that I was going to be um you know making sure that I was um committing to this as well as Nadia as well okay so moving on um to the second scenario and again this isn't based on a real situation um but something we were thinking about when we were coming up with an example is the fact that as we work remotely um it could be quite easy for a team member within a team to perhaps feel disconnected and there could be a variety of reasons why that's the case um and in this one the um the scenario is that I am a member of Nadia's team Nadia has other members in her team we have weekly team meetings and opportunities for um discussion and ideas I have some really great ideas that I'm able to articulate and communicate very well to Nadia in our one-on-ones but when it comes to the team call our team call I'm not able or I don't feel that I'm able to fully communicate those despite the fact there are two other members of the team who are working on exactly the same thing as me and Nadia has noticed that there is it's starting to affect my performance and my productivity is starting to slip okay so here goes um any how's the interaction been with Sabrina and Tristan lately always yeah it's been fine okay I've noticed during our team meetings that you didn't jump in to the conversation of what you've been working on with Sabrina and Tristan and during our one-on-one um discussion you've been sharing some really good ideas with me I was just I didn't see them come through as why is that oh well you know they're so passionate um and they have so much to contribute as you as you see when we have our team call they're straight in and they've got so much to say and um and I just don't want to I don't feel that I'm able to kind of jump in and and say anything and also in a group setting and on a video call it's hard to speak I know when to speak without feeling like I'm interrupting and I think that would be a bit rude did you did you notice our handbook was recently updated by our CEO regarding interruptions specifically uh yeah I did notice that yeah what what did you think of that update I've read it um and I understand you know the the idea but behind it and I think that's really great but I just don't and it just feels strange um and I think I'll work I need to work on my confidence um to feel that I'd be able to interrupt if somebody's talking too much okay Abby um what other ways do you think you can contribute to this discussion then um well what what I've noticed is that I'm in a group discussion um once it's over then I realise afterwards oh actually I should have said this or I should have said that and I could make more of an effort to follow up um perhaps in Slack or create an issue and carry on with the discussion there if I feel that I haven't made my points or been able to say um very much okay I'd really like to support you through this um what what do you think the team and I can do to to make this easier and to support you right now um I think they could involve me a bit more um and actually ask me for my thoughts on the call because it's very you know you'll ask a question or say something we need to do this or you know whatever and then they'll jump in and say yeah and this is what we need to do and this is how we need to do it and there's kind of no pause for them to say oh yeah and Abby what do you think um so I think that would help if um they could make a conscious effort to ask me and I know that's difficult because we have a time restriction um and they could also like ping me in in chat or something or just you know ask me to jump in I really I really like that idea I actually think this could be great feedback for them and I would encourage you to share it with them um and I'll make sure that when we have the people up schools I'll leave I'll leave enough time to to have a discussion and to leave time in space to ask questions and to jump in um when you when you feel you're ready okay great thanks okay last example which is the bad coaching example um and this is so Abby I'm gonna jump in here because this is really what happens in I think any form of remote environments I think in GitLab we've been fairly good in one-on-one sessions to concentrate on the call especially if it's an important call um but when things get really busy it's easy to get distracted and so that's something to look out for yeah so Abby okay take over the scenario yeah so in this scenario the same one um as the first one that we talked about the hiring of the director of back-end engineering um so exactly the same same type of issue and the same type of questions hey Abby how's it going with that um that back what is it uh director of back-end engineering role oh it's it's not going well I haven't made any progress sorry can you give me one second someone's slacking me I just want to respond to this just give me one sec okay oh so you haven't made progress um have you searched on hack and use and stack overflow and I think you've mentioned a few other sites in the past no um don't you think that could work um I could but didn't we try that before um that's a that's a really good point um perhaps you should maybe you should reach out to stack overflow again and just see where where that goes and if um you have more success this time okay I'll do that um are there any other places I should be searching for this you know what um let me go and do some research on it and then I'll send you a few other platforms that you can that you can search on how does that sound oh great thanks so I will carry on then with um my screening calls and sourcing for the developer roles okay that sounds really good um right so can we check in again on this in our next one on one how does sounds good yep okay awesome cool thanks evie okay so I will go back to the slides so um I think I can yeah um so perhaps I'll ask the question to everybody what was wrong with that last scenario um I feel like in the last scenario both of you were very professional when you were interacting with each other so that was good however it seems like abby wasn't really being empowered to do the work and take action so that's how it came across to me I also um going off of what Kathy was saying um Nadia was giving a lot of the suggestions rather than letting abby take ownership on it uh so in what was going on abby was just going to continue on what she was doing the way she was doing it rather than learning any new solutions while Nadia was going to be giving her what needed to be done and uh Nadia didn't really give a full call to action or anything there because she was busy on slack yeah at least I played it hard no you did a great job yes um that's very true I think um the the main points we wanted you all to pick up on which is great um is the fact that I um I had that taken away from me it didn't because it wasn't my issue anymore and Nadia was quick very quick to sort of take it off of me and try and just make a quick fix and I wouldn't I'm not going to be learning anything so if it happens again in the future I'm just going to go straight to Nadia with a problem and say Nadia here's my problem you fix it for me and tell me what I need to do um and also Nadia was not listening at all um she was getting pinged on slack she was away her mind was elsewhere um which is just if you're going to have a coaching session you really really need to be sure that you are giving your 100 focus um to the coachy so that means turning off slack trying to look at the script I know it's difficult because we all have screens but you know trying to convey that you are fully engaged um and in there with them okay um so I would like to ask all of you um what stories you have of when coaching rather than managing made a positive impact there was a time really early on um when I first speaking to a manager I get that um when someone was like not doing too well and I think about this instance a lot and just kind of like chit chatting with them and trying to give them the opportunity because they were really good they are a really good programmer and they were really solid and they always did really good and then suddenly things just dropped off and then just letting them talk we kind of discovered that the organization of the things that they were working on they just had too many things on their plate and they were trying to be a hero and finish them all at once um but I don't think that they would have like if I would have just been like work harder and you know come on get get your crap done I think they would have they probably would have just tried to get the stuff done um and instead we discovered that I was like they just had too many things on their plate which wouldn't have happened if I didn't give them a chance to just kind of explore what was going on is that count as a coaching situation yeah I think it does Jacob I think um you explored root cause and I'd like to know how you coach them through it so what sort of so what did you do to to um let them figure out how to make that pressure less and how to ensure that they're working I don't I don't want to use the word better but they they better prioritize and reach those goals um or their intentions a little bit better yeah I mean I think the thing in that case was just that you know every every person has a different bandwidth and you're always trying to figure out what that bandwidth is and to get people to like open up that communication of like hey you've got you've given me too many things um versus saying like I'm just gonna get it all done uh no matter what and like sometimes it's really hard to figure out that you've given somebody too many things to work on because they'll just like you can mix up the underperforming with the giving them too many things uh pretty easily so in terms of giving too many things to do um is that something that could maybe be addressed by setting goals from the beginning and then kind of measuring those smart goals against what they're working on week to week for me coaching is less about traditional performance management and more about um focusing in on some key areas that will help someone's effectiveness and perception and abilities and uh and like the team said earlier a little less task focused and so I think that um if you can if you can break away from the just the in-moment stuff and think more holistically about the person and how they can be more effective then I think that can make coaching super helpful I think the managing side is more of the here's your goal here's what you need to achieve here's how to achieve it the coaching to me is more coaching around the how and the behaviors and things that will sustain across multiple projects not just one sorry about that I was just having I was just sneezing um apologies um so has anybody had any experience of coaching and how they would coach somebody who has a fixed mindset about the subjects that you that you wish to coach them on I think for me that's a very very challenging type of person to coach because um for me the biggest challenge is figuring out okay so they've got a fixed mindset and they don't necessarily want to um necessarily dissent and then commit as a team they already have their ideas of exactly how they want to do this so um as a manager when I encounter someone like that that is one of the most challenging scenarios for me and have I had a lot of success working with someone like that I'm not sure it's kind of um hit or miss sometimes some people are willing to be more open and you can talk to them and say hey look I completely understand why you would want to do things this way um but we have to work as a team and this is the approach that seems like it's a space for the company for for everybody um and then some people are more open minded and say okay yeah I I don't totally agree with this approach but I can get on board and drive things this way but other people it's just it never really happens so any tips that you guys could give me on how to flip this so that it works out better would be appreciated I I think there's some people that just have a hard time getting there but I think that tips for me would be really to help explain the why um with the with the person that you're trying to to coach and for some that takes longer than others and for some people they want to see the data and and really understand why are we going here and the most you can do is just try to present what you have but if you can get feedback and elements from more than one source for example if you were coaching me that um I'm too aggressive in trying to get projects accomplished and it might mean that the first project goes great but then no one ever wants to work with me again because I I just pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed and didn't take um other people's considerations into account when I was drawing what my initiative was and what what I wanted um if I've never heard that from anybody and if I think the project was super successful and if everyone gave me a big like thumbs up Barbie great job and then you came in to coach me on doing it differently that would be very confusing for me so one thing that helps you be a better coach is everybody else around also being honest and transparent about what they're experiencing and then that can help each of us to understand better the areas that we need to focus on that when we do hear it from our manager and also coaching doesn't need to be from your manager it can be from anyone at the company that wants to invest in you um that when we hear from that person we're a little bit less okay this is more about you than me and we understand actually it is about me it's an investment in me and it's someone giving me the time that I need for me to be better and it doesn't actually help them they're investing in me and I should appreciate that and so I think that really explaining the why really explaining your investment in them and really explaining what you hope that they will get out of it and maybe suspend disbelief for just a moment and say wow why don't we if we try doing this differently for a while let's see what the impact is uh and really try to to get them along with you understand that you're their partner in this um you're not there um it is less of a boss relationship in many cases and more of a investment relationship and if you can get there it can help but there are some people who will never get there and then that's a whole other discussion and other a training for another day but uh but I think that the most that you can do to show that you're giving um and you really want them to accept what you're giving I think it can be helpful adding to what Barbie said also um in my prior experiences trying to handle situations with people that do have that fixed mindset it's also really important um to go back to listening to them uh don't let them take over the conversation and let them you know completely grill you but at the same time be able to understand where that mindset is coming from and what you can do to help them you know get over it and try to change that and help them out along the way what I found is that frequently when people have a fixed mindset um they are fixed about things that I didn't tell them that were flexible so I never told them that the number of people on the team the budget uh the external uh help they could acquire the disruption to the rest of the company the money they could spend I never told them that those things weren't fixed that it was about achieving those goals and if those things I because I I I get to allocate those things I tend to think of those things as flexible and a service of the goals um but for them the experience is different they have to go to poll to ask for the budget and they know there's a limited set of people etc so many times it's me forgetting to tell people that it isn't fixed and and this is in that these are options can so I don't know if I'm the only one I could be the only one but I'm a little bit confused as to what coaching is specific like of course I know the word coaching but what we're trying to get at what coaching is versus training versus managing like all these things seem very closely related and I don't feel like we clearly like I guess that coaching is opening up the opportunity for the person to discover themselves but is this only in a problem situation is this like in other situations like I don't totally understand the specifics of like what we're going for here maybe I'm the only one um so in terms of we picked underperformance because we kind of thought that was a it's a difficult one um as well so we may as well tackle it um or try to tackle it head on but you can use coaching in other situations as well um so I think we mentioned um learning a new workflow for example um or managing relationships and you know stakeholders and that kind of thing I think the difference between managing and coaching when you're managing um a situation um you you as a manager are basically saying here's what you need to do here's when you needed to get it done by and laying out the steps but with coaching you are kind of asking a lot of open questions and trying to figure out and get the person to get there um and try and come up with their own solutions you may have the answer and it may it's difficult because your your instant reaction might be well this is what you need to do you just need to do it this way go off and do it and tell me when you've done it um but this is coaching is more about getting them to get there I see and so uh so it is the open ended questioning and allowing the person to discover the solution themselves is it because I know in the beginning you had said that um so what I mean what other than performance would you use it for do you know what I mean sorry could you repeat that I missed I missed that oh okay um so in terms of you have uh in your example you gave it as an example of like a pre-pip situation uh other than that um can you give me an example of like something else you might use it for um so I think perhaps trying to not let's take it out let's move away from underperformance and perhaps more about if somebody comes to you with a particular situation or a difficulty it might not be affecting their performance but they just want to and you have the you've been through it before you know how to do it and everything else but they're coming to you and saying I have this thing that I'm trying to do I'm not having a lot of luck um and then you can sort of then begin to ask those open questions well have you thought about this um or why is this happening and you know try to analyze it and go through those steps with them um to get there and if somebody else wants to jump in and correct me or add a bit more meat to this um that would be really great in case I'm saying totally the wrong thing because I'm by no means a subject matter expert. Jacob also if you if you're developing someone in your team um so from a career development perspective it's a really great tool um so instead of telling them what to do and um sort of leading the way of what they should be doing next in their career in order to get some way you can really coach them in making those decisions themselves and figuring out if that's the right route they want to want to be going. Yeah um as Nadia said I think it really helps guide somebody if they are achieving bigger goals if they want to move on to those leadership roles you can help coach them through it um in addition to that I've also found in my previous roles that um when major changes are happening that a lot of times it does take some coaching with um who's who you're working with to help them guide along that even though they might not have any negative mindset yet or they might not have any positive mindset yet they just don't know what to expect and they want that guidance along them to help them. Can add a story here if you'd like. Yes, yes. So at a different company um at a situation where Ben really one of the top performers actually um and we had an all local team and he moved away and he was the first experiment in remote work uh for me for the for this team at least and um and after a month or so we started to see a change um a negative change um not so much in his performance and results but just sort of like hostility and sensing anger and people taking his comments at least as anger um and uh and was starting to throw off the team a little bit so I had so I started to obviously formulate I was disappointed myself because you know it was at his request and I was at the time not remote friendly I've obviously flipped a bit on that one but um you know it was his request and we were making we're going out of our way to accommodate it and it wasn't working out and so I was frustrated and I had made a bunch of conclusions in my head about what was going wrong and I went to talk with him but I basically suspended all of my uh my commentary and my emotion around it and just started asking a bunch of questions and after a long dialogue I don't have to go through the dialogue but it turned out that um we had a couple of breakthroughs there were some things going on both in his personal life but also in his manner of communication and other things the point though is that we came up with completely different things than I would have gone into if I just told him what to do I was wrong he had different things going on that I was unaware of um but then also one of the key things about this was afterwards he was incredibly grateful to me for coaching him through it because I helped him see some things that he didn't realize were going on and he was completely unaware we were both unaware of effectively um but together we came up with a better you know understanding and set of solutions and uh and just that sort of coaching dialogue as opposed to me just telling him meant that he opened up we came up with other solutions but also then really made him appreciate the situation and me as a manager and all this kind of stuff and he done went you know and then everything was resolved and he went back to being one of the top performers again so I don't know can I be heard now yes okay I had to switch to my phone sorry the computer mic wasn't picking up I think that um I I might have missed some of what was being said while I was trying to restart this but the coaching and and performance management piece can be confusing because they're not completely mutually exclusive you can use coaching behaviors as part of performance management but coaching can be used far beyond that as well so if you think about a professional musician or a professional sports player just because they're at the top of their game doesn't mean that they can't still use coaching if you're an amazing violinist it doesn't mean that someone there to coach inspire motivate you uh will ever be a bad thing and so I definitely wouldn't want people to focus as in only on performance management I think that each of us has areas that we can continue to grow in and that they could be a strength that getting strong will have great impact or they could be a weakness that getting stronger will have great impact but uh I wouldn't focus on I definitely wouldn't focus on just being about performance management okay I see we only have about three minutes left um and I just wanted to kind of reiterate a few um key things for you all to go away with um and I think we've already talked about a lot of this but we said coaching is not about telling people what to do um it's an iterative process which is great um for GitLab and the way that we work um because as we all know iteration is one of our values um and it does require a gross mindset and you should ask open questions um listening is very very very important and make sure that you're focusing um your attention on coaching and try to identify the root cause um and that is everything that we wanted to talk about um and I just want to also say that we do not expect this to be it um in terms of coaching it's a very broad subject um you know it's it's not something we can just do in 50 minutes and expect everybody to know how to do it and go off and do it um we we appreciate that and we will be sure to follow up on this and all of the other topics that we've talked about um as well but we have about two minutes left so is there does anybody have any questions thanks for doing this I really appreciate it well you're very welcome and thank you um everybody for joining this call I I thought it I thought it was great um and thank you Nadia for your help and um thanks everybody for contributing and being here um yeah and I will see you all again um when we do our next session thanks very much and have a good rest of the day cheers everyone bye