 all right let's see if this actually works hey it does awesome yay I love it when a plan comes together unfortunately that's kind of more my life you know that's not good wow that was not what I was intending to happen I blame the laptop perhaps mismatch in resolution yeah that's all right cool wow more people showed up than I expected I wasn't sure anyone would want to talk and come to a talk that just focuses on what we do with the community so thank you for being here I appreciate it we do a lot and we're terrible about telling people about it so I'm gonna get up here and all right I am showing that it is it is 430 so we'll get started hello everybody my name is Thomas Cameron I'm a senior principal cloud engineer in the engineering business unit at Red Hat my contact information is up here I am Thomas at Red Hat comm I've been here long enough that yes I have the Thomas at redhat.com email address and you follow me on Twitter at Thomas D Cameron what I want to talk about today like I said is we we don't Red Hat does not like to you know thump our chest and talk about how awesome we are and what we do and and so I think we don't talk enough about and explain enough about what we do with the various open source communities that we work with so I want to spend a little bit of time today doing just that I'll talk a little bit about where we came from where Red Hat came from where we are today I want to actually also interject something about what we do from a business perspective because a lot of people think of us is just another software company and I want to explain a little bit about why that's not the case seg into what our mission is because our mission actually calls out community our mission statement actually calls out community it is ingrained in our DNA I'll talk a little bit about some of the projects we work with I'll talk about some of the acquisitions and how that has affected communities and then I'll talk about some legal issues that Red Hat has been involved in on behalf of communities some of the community programs that we help sponsor the developer programs and why we do what we do so first off where we came from a lot of folks it's really funny I still read articles that talk about Red Hat as you know the scrappy newcomer to the IT industry and and I'm like I'm not kidding we got a new what was it we got a best you know young company or something like that like just a few years ago and I was like we started in 93 like we're old but yeah we were started in 93 by a hacker by the name of Mark Ewing and a businessman by the name of Bob Young Bob sold he had a catalog business he sold computers and media with free software on it out of his bookstore and Mark built a Linux distribution called Red Hat Linux Bob sold so many copies of it that he approached Mark and said I want to buy your organization I want to buy your company and they adopted the name Red Hat software and went forward as a going concern and in 99 we did well enough that we were one of the most successful I think at that point we were the seventh largest IPO to date so went from nothing to huge IPO in just a few years and 99 we really changed the way that we did business because previous to 99 we were just a distribution we we packaged up software from you know various projects upstream created the distribution sold it and we're successful at it but in 99 that really changed when we acquired Cygnus software Cygnus software it was a hardcore engineering company that did a lot of kernel stuff and did a lot of tool chain stuff that allowed open-source software to be ported to different hardware architectures that changed the way that Red Hat worked at that point we went from just being a distribution to actually doing a lot of hardcore engineering and contributing a lot of code upstream we had contributed before but with the Cygnus acquisition that really led to us being a powerhouse in the open-source community because we were able to actually do a lot of really good engineering work and contribute code upstream so from very very early in our days upstream was really important to us and I'll explain why in a little while in 2002 we changed from a consumer-based model where we were selling box sets at you know Best Buy and CompUSA and praying that people would buy our software and augmenting our business or augmenting our revenues with like t-shirt and ball cap sales to an enterprise model with Red Hat Enterprise Linux and that actually was a pretty controversial move there were a lot of folks in the community who had gotten free distributions from us Red Hat Linux and when we turned around and said hey we're not going to do free distributions anymore we're going to sell subscriptions to software there was a lot of bad a lot of animus from some some parts of the community and so from 2002 through today there are still some people who are you know a little chapped at Red Hat because we don't give our flagship distribution away for free we we sell subscriptions to it this was a massive change this was a huge change and companies like Dell and HP and IBM and even Oracle threw in their support behind us we were arguably the first to market an enterprise open source and I I think it's pretty fair to say that we have been the most successful open source company today today we're approaching three billion dollars in revenues we've got over 80 offices in something like 40 countries around the globe and we have about 12,000 people that work at Red Hat so there are a ton of folks that are doing work around the software and the technology that we sell subscriptions to and also committing code upstream now as I said earlier a lot of people think oh Red Hat's just another software company but let's be real clear we don't sell software licenses the license under which you use the software that we that we support and sell subscriptions to is an open source license it's the GPL one of the versions of GPL or LGPL or patchy software license or MIT license or whatever there are ton of licenses that are included in our technologies but we don't sell software licenses when you get a subscription to one of the Red Hat technologies that we sell subscriptions to it's not just about the bits the bits are certainly part of it because we deliver the bits through our content delivery network but it's about our technical leadership it's about accessing the bits from the from our network it's about knowledge base access and all the solutions we have there a big one is it's about a 10 year life cycle for open source technologies now if you work with open source technologies you know that in a lot of cases you know a six month old package is completely out of date but in an enterprise environment you don't want to be upgrading your own infrastructure every six months so you know having that long life cycle is important product documentation how to tips and tricks things like that a big one in the enterprise space is security we have a huge security team that's global that reacts to post release security incidents and then also hardens our software to make sure or at least to try to make sure that we don't have any security issues when it goes out of the gate it allows access the subscription allows access to the labs on our portal so you can do things like pre-configure various services and pull down config files and it's access to the solution engine support solution engine is when you type in a problem it'll actually use AI to go and search through our knowledge base to see if there's something that matches it support up to and including 24-hour follow the sun a big one software compatibility you know we test our software with our partners like you know SAP and Oracle and IBM and things like that so when you install that software it's a certified solution it's access to education and certification you know you've heard of folks who are red hat certified engineers for instance legal protection which I'll talk more about in a little while this is important to a lot of our enterprise customers and that partner ecosystem that partner partner ecosystem of ISVs and IH sorry independent software vendors and independent hardware vendors and vars and consulting groups and things like that and then certification on common and popular hardware platforms from you know Dell and HP and Lenovo and so on so it's not that we're selling bits the bits are only a tiny part of what the subscription brings so when you hear people talking about oh software you know red has just another software company it's really not just it's not that if you look at red hats mission statement online this is our published mission statement it says our mission is to be the catalyst in communities of customers contributors and partners creating better technology the open source way this is in our DNA you will hear me say that over and over and over again we are totally dedicated to working in communities whether it's communities of customers or upstream communities and I'll give some examples of that so what projects does red hat work with I think before I go any further what is the first thing you think of when you think of red hat red hat Linux right I mean for the most part people think of red hat as a Linux company which is fantastic because that's certainly where we came from that was where we started was in the Linux space but there's a whole lot of other stuff that goes on at red hat red hat enterprise Linux is one product out of all of these technologies that red hat sells subscriptions to so there's red hat virtualization there's red hat open stack red hat storage which is bluster and stuff red hat satellite for systems management red hat jboss middleware which is like i'm going to show you some of the things that we do in middleware and it's like multiple pages of technologies red hat mobile application development management a lot of people don't think of that with red hat red hat open shift for container management red hat core os core os is now a red hat property manage iq for cloud management ansible is now a red hat property we acquired them not too long ago and for every one of these products that we sell subscriptions to there's an upstream project that we sponsor and maintain and contribute to so you know rdo and overt.org and the fedora project centos project centos is also a red hat technology now you know the upstream core os open shift origin etc etc etc now that's a whole lot of communities right there but the argument could be made well you know that's just upstream for your products right you know that's not real community i disagree because we do everything in those upstream communities nothing makes it into red hat enterprise linux or almost nothing makes it into red hat enterprise linux i'll say nothing because there's always going to be some weird corner case but but generally nothing makes it into uh upstream into red hat enterprise linux they didn't come through the fedora project we put everything out in the community freely distributable downloadable open source technologies the same is true for overt.org the same is true for open shift origin the same is true for manage iq gluster.org stuff etc etc etc those are all communities but then there are i don't know about a million other projects out there that we are aware of and try to keep an eye on uh that we work with like at the apache and and open stack and things like that so there's a ton of work that we do around communities upstream but it goes a lot deeper than just what you see on the screen these are projects that we are involved in that are not productized they may be part of a product but these are these are things that we are involved with from a foundation perspective we're with the cloud native we're part of the cloud native computing foundation the libre office foundation linux foundation open nfv python blah blah blah i mean you can see that these are all foundations free software foundations that we are members of uh to some level or another so we do a ton of work around standards that have that are not you know necessarily product related and let's be real clear the truth of the matter is by working with these upstream projects and making sure that there are standards which are repeatable across different communities and different technologies the truth of the matter is this makes it easier not harder to migrate off of our commercial offerings we make sure that things are standardized across communities so that they work no matter what now we don't want you to obviously but uh but the reality is by being members of these foundations and standardizing things we make it a lot easier for you to do other stuff from an operating system perspective i know this is kind of an eye chart for those of you in the back i apologize but um you know the centos project fedora sygnus um and upstream gnu and linux projects and all of these utilities all of these technologies which are yes certainly part of red had enterprise linux in a lot of cases but also part of fedora and a lot of these technologies have been adopted by you know canonical and by susan and by slack wear and and so on and that's part of the deal that's part of the deal we know that a strong vibrant upstream community you know rising tide raises all ships and so it's a good thing that the stuff that we're involved with like upstream linux and se linux and system d and and so on it's a good thing that there is a large and vibrant set of communities around these technologies if you look at containerization we're part of you know cockpit and cryo and docker and flannel and kubernetes and atomic and rocket and so on uh because again having a strong upstream community makes all technologies better including our certainly there is a there is a component of we want to have the best technology in the market but we participate in those upstream communities by contributing code by contributing governance by contributing bodies uh and so on so and then from a desktop perspective again there's a ton of work that we do around gnu there's a ton of work that we do around librae office uh and a whole bunch of other upstream technologies for the desktop like xorg and things like that um so a lot of work that we do in those upstream communities to make the desktop better and everybody wins all the distributions use those technologies from a middleware and identity management standpoint um got an interesting story about our identity management platform that i'll tell you in just a few minutes but if you look at what we do upstream with the apache web server for instance what we do with the various jboss.org projects around application services and data virtualization and uh memory in-memory caching of big applications and things like that there are a ton of projects and communities in upstream that we contribute to uh from an operations perspective you know again upstream overt and open shift and open stack and and things like this for cloud technologies all of these are open source projects that we work in the upstream width and anybody can have access to and from a storage perspective we acquired gluster for uh nas style storage software to find storage using uh the linux operating system and then the storage layer on top of that and then we also acquired ink tank so sef is part of the red half family as well for block storage so a ton of upstream work being done there and then some really cool stuff that we're doing like with the condor project for things like high performance computing or high throughput computing for computational clusters and things like that we contribute a bunch to upstream technologies like nfs and you know gfs the or should say gfs2 since that's the current version but there are a ton of projects that we work on there that again get adopted by a bunch of different distributions and then from a developer tool standpoint but real quick how many folks are how many folks think of themselves as more developers than operations folks okay how many folks are more operations than developers okay good we got a really good mix okay so how many folks have used eclipse yeah okay we do a ton of upstream development in the eclipse with the eclipse foundation uh and and a bunch of other technologies on here there are technologies there are developer tools on here for you know sort of typical um middleware or application development all the way down to kernel level and c programming so a ton of stuff there as well so did y'all know that red hat was contributor would do a contributed to all of those upstream projects a couple of you did well you work here you better know so red hat has acquired a bunch of companies just i've been i've been a red hat coming up on 13 years and just in my tenure here we've acquired a bunch of companies and it's been really fascinating to see what happens when we do acquire a company what we do around making that technology open source and building communities around it um since we were founded we've acquired over 30 companies some of them have been very successful and frankly some of them have not we made acquisitions that turned out didn't work out real well and you know that that's just kind of the nature of doing business but in every case where we have acquired a company or a technology if it's been successful we have either created or at least maintained and invested in existing communities around those technologies and interestingly a lot of the acquisitions that we made were actually closed source so we had to acquire something that was closed source in a lot of cases we had to go through a bunch of legal you know rigmarole because of licensed technology a lot of technical rigmarole where we had to replace that licensed technology with open source technology um and we have spent a ton of time effort energy and money in making sure that those technologies are accessible by upstream uh communities and then building communities around those technologies so you know if you look back at some of our early acquisitions Sustina was a closed source company that was doing uh HA clustering and a shared uh clustered file system for linux we bought them we turned around we made it open source and uh and it's available out there on the internet for anybody to download we acquired a lot of the Netscape assets from AOL when you all remember when AOL bought Netscape um our identity management platform is actually based on the old Netscape identity manager code now it's been so long that there's no code left anymore but that that was absolutely closed source we bought that from uh from AOL and had to jump through a lot of hoops to make that open source uh meta matrix for data virtualization kumranet okay no red headers are allowed to answer this does anyone know what kumranet is responsible for yes kvm kvm spice and spice that's right so kumranet was a little company that we acquired out of israel that uh that was the the the founders of and the inventors of kvm which is now used in open stack and you know red hat virtualization it's a it's a super popular hypervisor technology on the linux kernel um that was closed source when we bought it the the kernel module the kvm kernel module is open source but like the management interfaces and the red hat uh what they called at the time uh what we called at the time red hat enterprise virtualization hell when we first bought it was based on windows that went over like a ton of ricks um but uh but yeah so we bought that turned around rewrote it made it so that it could be deployed in uh with open source technologies and now red hat virtualization for instance is awesome technology uh managed iq was uh cloud forms our multi cloud management platform ansible when we acquired ansible tower was closed source it's not anymore so we've done a lot to make sure that uh that we have made those technologies accessible by anybody who wants so just just out of curiosity how much do you guys think red hat has spent in acquiring technologies and then turning around and either maintaining them as open source or making them open source who said that you're close now it's it's we spent have you tallied all the the ones that we have records on oh okay but a lot of them were private transactions because they weren't publicly held companies uh and so there are some of them i mean there are a lot of them that we actually don't have dollar values on or that at least they're not publicly released so on the low end about 2.4 billion dollars on the low end for technologies that we bought either made open source or maintained as open source and made sure that the communities had access to them red hat has also been involved in a whole bunch of legal fights on behalf of the open source communities that we participate with um we've had red hat executives and evangelists who have testified uh at the u.s congress they testified in front of the european union parliament they we have written amicus briefs for the united states supreme court and various lower courts around the world uh to fight things like patents software patents to fight things like patent trolls uh to fight things like anti-competitive practices in the industry you know we spent a lot of again time effort energy and money making sure that we were in the front of those fights to protect the smaller communities that didn't have representation we've kicked a snot out of patent trolls and that's been awesome um there's been a ton of articles there have been a ton of things that we have done where we have either beaten them in court or we even purchased patents when it was at risk we was just like you know what we'll buy it we'll you win this round and then we turn around and make it available for free to the open source communities so we uh we have done a ton of work around protecting intellectual property and trying to fight software patents we also offer a patent promise that says that if you're using our technology and that technology is found to infringe on a patent we will indemnify you and we will also write code to replace whatever patent encumbered software there is so we're very very anti software patents uh we founded we were one of the founding members of the open innovation network which is a collection of companies like it's us google ibm nec philips sony susan toyota of all things toyota and anybody who's working on open source any linux related software can join open innovation network and we have a shared defensive patent pool so if uh if somebody tries to mess with us it's almost guaranteed that we will have a patent to fight them back with yes what is microsoft going to join that's a damn good question i don't i can't presume to speak for them yes sir very small question open invention network no open innovation did i think that finger it you did oh you didn't see that look away right after the statement dang it we haven't you haven't post weights yeah it's it's innovation even right next to each other really yes wow okay i'm a moron it's been a long week just whatever today all right so we're also involved in a lot of community programs from a supporting perspective we have a group inside of red hat called open source and standards or osas i don't even know how many people are on osas now it's got to be a very very large team they're technical folks they're administrative and organizational folks and community management folks even like marketing and artistic folks in osas who help communities organize so if you're a member of a community and you're struggling with community management or if you're struggling with like how to form the community and how to get it vibrant and and active we can help go to community dot red hat dot com and we will absolutely provide assistance uh we have done things you know everything from helping with governance issues and organizational issues and and community management all the way up to the simple stuff like yeah we'll host your website or we'll we'll provide email services for your community so we're very invested in making that happen if you go to community dot red hat dot com you can see there's a ton of information there and and i just did the screenshot today you know devcom for us is on there we talk about activities in the community we've got an events calendar uh we've got a knowledge base there's a ton of stuff there that are resources for community managers uh and and if you need additional help you can always email us and we'll help you there so red hat also has some developer programs that are that are absolutely focused on uh thank you on uh community members so red hat software is available at developers dot red hat dot com and this was actually something that i and a bunch of other people but but i was probably one of the most obnoxious about it um and i don't mind being obnoxious internally it happens all the time um but we fought really hard to have a developer program where folks could download red hat software and not do the 30 day eval or not do the $99 developer subscription that we had for years and years there were a bunch of us internally who said we cannot do this if we want developers to be able to participate in the red hat community not just upstream we've got to make it available for free and so they did so the business units made it available for free if you go to developers dot red hat dot com and click on linux um got a cool video about linux and scroll down a little bit you can get a subscription to red hat enterprise linux the developer version which is the exact same version but we also enable all the add-ons for like ha clustering and uh clustered file system and uh gfs i mean a bunch of stuff we add on to it and it's zero dollars so we get the box too no unfortunately we don't ship physical media anymore 1999 called they want their technology back i know i know right i would love to have that i saw that i was like oh no okay dang it but uh but and what's funny is every once in a while someone will email and say hey i've got this little box set of red hat enterprise linux four and i'm like i'll take that just ship it up my wife's like please don't so but anyway so and over and above that if you go to the middleware side you can do the same thing with the jboss stack too so all of our all of our je middleware stuff um and and the entire developer suite you can get started with the middleware developers kit as well zero dollars hello so we're knocking on the door apparently it's deliberate don't tell him we're in here okay thank you so why why does red hat do this we're a commercial company we're publicly traded i'm not gonna even pretend to say that it's not very important to us to be revenue positive right we got 12 000 people that we got to feed and and just shelter and you know make their families happy and stuff like that uh but when i came here in 2005 i came to red hat because i am an open source person um i am a red hat i'm an open source advocate you know i uh my background my background is kind of bizarre if you already know the answer to this please don't answer but i'm just curious does anybody want to guess what i did before i got into it are you really it's locked i mean i know it's like let me in i know we can't it's locked anyway so so anyone want to guess what i did before i transferred before i changed into it back in 1993 sales no and no car salesman oh come on damn shots fired shots fired no what's that professional water polo professional water polo player i don't know where that came from no i was a police officer i was a police officer when i was when i was 16 years old i volunteered through the police explorer program at my local police department when i was 18 i became a corrections officer when i was 21 and can get commissioned i became a police officer when i was 24 i was like i can't afford to do this but one of the things that drew me to open source because i started back in 93 worked on you know novel network to date myself and then on windows because that was the next big thing um when i uh when i got into linux when i got into open source and i realized that there was this incredible community where you could get on irc or you could get on uh at the time it was a usenet you know comp dot os dot linux dot blah blah blah you know you get on these things and you could ask questions and people would answer and it's like that's the guy who wrote the code like holy cow and then i was like hey that guy's asking a question or that gal's asking a question and i know the answer i can help them and that was kind of my introduction to open source was i can participate in this community like i can help other people that's why i became a cop and i learned that i can do it in the community as well and i'm pretty typical of red hatters most of us who work here are doing this because the communities that we participate in are awesome and we get help and we can give help and it's it's a really cool sort of karma thing it's amazing um when i came to red hat we had 1200 employees now we have over 12 000 employees um but i have i have worried over the years like how do we keep the culture how do we keep that spirit alive but um myself and several other folks are actually involved in new hire and new manager training programs where we teach the culture and we teach the history of red hat so that as folks come on board maybe they didn't come from the community maybe they don't understand but by the time they go through our new hire orientation by the time they get into the trenches with us they do understand how critically important it is that we participate in these communities most of us are very passionate about open source sure there are some who just you know it's a job right but for the most part we're really good about hiring folks who are passionate about open source we're passionate about helping folks we're passionate about enabling people to do things they never could have done if they had to rely on proprietary expensive closed source software you know when we did the one laptop per child program you know that was one of the things that i was most proud of up to that point and i keep getting more and more proud of the things we're involved in like we put technology into the hands of people who could never ever afford it if if it weren't for the free nature the free is in beer nature free software that's cool man i'm a tiny tiny tiny little part of it but i am part of it and that is incredible to me and everybody at red hat most everyone at red hat is the same way and over and above that we recognize that we are beholden to those communities that that we get technologies from that go into our products you know we are responsible to make sure that those communities are vibrant you know we wouldn't be successful if it weren't for you being here today and participating so we're grateful for that um we recognize that we owe a debt of gratitude to the communities we would not be successful if it weren't for what the upstream maintainers and developers have done and it's important for us to give because we have been given so much you know i got i got a wife and two kids at home and if it weren't for open source if it weren't for these communities i wouldn't be able to put food on the table or i'd have a job that i hated you know but instead i get to come and talk to you i get to participate in this incredible thing and that's that's a pretty pervasive attitude in red hat and you know i love it i when i came to red hat i thought i was gonna be there for two years i thought i'm gonna go two years i'm gonna get some street cred i'm gonna be a consultant i'm gonna that was 13 years ago you know i love this place and i love that we are geared to being of service to upstream communities and and i'm not unique in that at all so we are honored we are absolutely honored to be a part of your community and we will we will do our best to be good stewards and to contribute and we are thrilled to participate with you so thank you very much if there's any questions feel free to ask yes so i just want to say i feel like red hat needs to do a much better job explaining the technical aspects of upstream first um how so i found a blog post from dave neary uh in 2015 on community at red hat dot com slash blog upstream first turning open stack into an NFV platform where it contrasted upstream first with the vendor branch model okay that all the other vendors are following and it explains how it's harder to get all your patches accepted upstream and then backport them to your product your product basically being like a legacy branch and how other companies say oh it's easy just to develop all the features on our branch yeah and and how that provides temptation to go proprietary in the future and similarly like i contributed the xgo project and xgo product for like a decade relying no machines open core and uh for for a while it looks like and and then showing off the next version of no machine was all proprietary yeah and now we're you know have to develop open core i feel like red hat needs to focus on the technical aspects of upstream first i will i will do so the next time i present this thank you any other questions so it's all well and good that you are such a heavy participant in these uh communities and it's very clearly felt in a lot of different places but sometimes it also feels like when red hat is participating in communities it feels a little weird because like the reasonings or when the discussions are happening it's like we get half answers or things like that so i'm involved in fedora and a number of other communities as a community person and i interact with red headers a lot and a lot of times it winds up being where i feel like i'm getting half of the answer or a quarter of the answer and with the part i'm given i don't think it's good or smart or anything like that but like i feel like if i had the whole answer we'd have a better discussion and maybe have a better result at the end of it yeah yeah that's a fair criticism i'm not justifying it because i don't know the specifics of of you know what you've experienced i will say it is an unfortunate reality that you know like i said we are we are a commercial company there are things that we have to do from a product perspective you know that that are going to dictate the way that we do some upstream work and there are going to be times where we've got things that are going on that we can't disclose for financial reasons or for you know disclosure legal disclosure i mean there's a ton of things like that maybe that's what happened i don't know because i don't know the particulars what you're what you're doing or what you're talking about i will say though you know if that happens call it out and i mean don't be a jerk about it and i know you well enough know that you wouldn't but but call it out you know call the person out privately and say i know i'm getting a half answer here like this doesn't make sense is there something going on internally that you can't talk about like is there you know what's going on we will do our best and there is an internal policy i mean and it's not even a policy it's an ethos of transparency and disclosure where we can okay and you know i mean if you run across something like that again i don't have any juice really but tell me you've got thomas at redhead.com man send me an email i'll help out if i can yes sir um hold on wait for the mic so that we get your own video you're being recorded for posterity you talked about um red hat being uh good with upstreams mm-hmm and i'm wondering if this is uh in opposition to being good with downstreams um as a person who is a free software advocate and a person who works independently on free software projects um i find red hat projects to be the most difficult to cooperate with in terms of as an individual coming into a project okay and as a downstream so like if i'm a user of say gtk right interacting with gtk folks is actually kind of hard and it gets harder the more red hat they are so like the more employee they are it gets harder they get harder to talk to harder to contact and so on and i don't think this is necessarily a a malicious thing or like a problem but it definitely does seem like um my experience with the debon two community back in the golden days they focused a lot more heavily on downstreams maybe the to the to their detriment on their upstreams um but i'm wondering if there is a balance to be struck between upstream focus and downstream for focus yeah actually steven wants to answer that would you hand him the mic so uh as thomas mentioned some of this uh red hat has grown very fast in a fairly short amount of time and there has been a certain amount of we have seats that need filling and sometimes they end up with people who are looking at red hat as just a job and less of less of the passion that some of us old timers tend to have and like thomas said they're with with osas and with several internal programs we're trying to express to individuals more about uh why the community is so valuable and yeah there are times and there are some projects that are very heavily red hat employee based that need still need help uh getting it that that is what they should be doing so there yeah there there are times when we don't do a great job of this uh call it out when you see it if you need to talk to me uh escala at red hat dot com uh i usually try to uh take those take those people and have a meeting and you know explain the light to them so all right make it quick i really literally have to go to the airport like right this minute so okay this can answer can be done by any of the red hatters in this room or perhaps not in this room i am an isv var partner of red hat how do i work to make sure that my um business is noticed by red hat in that we do not have a cloud product and we're we're not um doing the the buzzword thing but if it wasn't important then i wouldn't be in this business thank you i mean join the club uh we gotta clear the room yeah we do have to go so i will answer i'll try to answer that quickly with it'll be a bit pithy but um we have a saying uh they who write the patch win the argument um people will talk and talk and talk uh the person who actually comes with something to to show off tends to get more attention