 Greetings from the National Archives flagship building in Washington, D.C., which sits on the ancestral lands of the Nacotja Tank peoples. I'm David Ferriero, Archivist of the United States, and I'm pleasure to welcome you to today's conversation with Gail Jessup White and Annette Gordon-Reed. Our topic is Ms. White's new book, Reclamation, which explores her own journey to understand her family history as a descendant of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings' family. Before we begin, I'd like to tell you about two programs coming up on our YouTube channel on Friday, November 19th at 1 p.m. Michael Burlingame. We'll tell us about his new book, The Black Man's President, and discuss Abraham Lincoln's personal connections with black people over the course of his career. On Wednesday, December 1st at 1 p.m. Fay Yarborough, we'll discuss Choctaw Confederates, her new book about the Choctaw Nation's Role in the Civil War. A common question that National Archives research staff here is, how do I find information about my family? The desire to know more about where we came from and who our ancestors were drives a large number of people to explore history on the personal level. Sometimes that personal research intersects with history on the national level. Gail Jessup White heard her family's stories and tracked down the evidence to verify them. After decades of research, she confirmed the passed down family lore and established that they were direct descendants of both Thomas Jefferson and of Sally Hemmings' brother Peter Hemmings. Her remarkable story pulls together many threads of American history and demonstrates the complexities of race in America and the legacy of slavery. The more we look into the records, the more facets of history emerge. What had been familiar stories are seen in a new light and our society is enriched by the multiple voices now making themselves heard. Gail Jessup White is the Public Relations and Community Engagement Officer at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello, a former award-winning television reporter and anchor. She started her career at the New York Times and has written and spoken extensively about her work at Monticello. She is a direct Jefferson descendant and is also related to two well-documented families once enslaved at Monticello, the Hemmings' and the Hobber's. Annette Gordon-Reed is the Charles Warren Professor of American Legal History at Harvard University. There she is also the Carol K. Fortzheimer Professor at the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study and a Professor of History in the University's Faculty of Arts and Sciences. She is noted for changing scholarship to Thomas Jefferson regarding his relationship with Sally Hemmings and her children. She was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for History and the National Book Award for Non-Fiction. Now let's hear from Gail Jessup White and Annette Gordon-Reed. Thank you for joining us today. Good afternoon, Gail. How are you doing? I am thrilled and excited and so honored to be here. Thank you for doing this with me. This is quite a privilege. Oh, it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. I love reading this book. It's amazing when you have someone talk about people you know, names that I've heard, people that I've talked to, and you bring it all home. First I'd like to ask you, what does reclamation mean to you? So reclamation means for black people, marginalized people to reclaim that space, to understand that our ancestors helped build America. We helped make this country what it is in every respect imaginable. I know the history of my ancestors on my dad's side of the family when it comes to Thomas Jefferson and the people he enslaved. Many black Americans do not. They hit a wall at 1870 when the first census came after the emancipation. But I was able to climb that wall. And my family represents all those people and their ancestors who can't access information. And that's what reclamation means to me. Bringing back the story, your connections to people who were not able to keep their family records, not able to tell their stories. And you get a chance to do that for them to the extent that you can. So you grew up in DC. I did. What was that like? I have to tell you, I absolutely love my hometown. Just there this morning, we did an interview with CNN that was taped. So people will be able to see it later and I'll be able to see it later. I actually got lost. I got lost in there yesterday because my hometown doesn't look the same. I talk about that in the book as well. We talked about gentrification, but growing up in the 1950s and 60s. And yes, I am that old. In 1957, the year I was born, Washington DC became majority black. So I grew up in a very insular protected world where I was surrounded by black professionals. My mother was an educator and a homemaker. My dad was a civil servant. Their friends were well educated people. And I felt very safe and very protected. And race was not an issue for me until I was around 13 years old when I became aware of what it meant to be a minority in America. I wasn't even aware that I was a minority. It was a very comfortable way to grow up. How did you, how did you discover this? How did it come home to you? I write about this in the book. So I don't want to give too much away. I know. But I mean just in, it was it an event or just sort of a dawning awareness? There was an event that happened in Las Vegas thousands of miles away from home at a place where black people were welcomed as entertainers, but not necessarily as activists. And that's when I was first exposed to the idea of being different. How did you, how did it make you feel? Well, at the time, I felt hurt because it involved a friendship. I was cultivating. Yes. So I felt a little, a little lonely and a little rebuffed. But as has been the case throughout my life, I kind of let it roll off my back as if I tried to ignore it in other words. And part of what I write about in the book is this evolutionary process where I have come to identify racism, see it for what it is, not run away from it and talk about it. Talk about race and racism out loud, which I did not do, which my family did not do growing up in Washington, DC. And in many respects, I like to feel that I have grown into a race woman where I feel that it is part of my journey, part of my mission to tell the truth about how we got to where we are in America. And when I say we, I mean all Americans, tell the truth of the travesties that occur throughout American history. I consider the two of us and many of our colleagues myth busters. We talk about what happened in America and the damage that has caused us as Americans to have. Our ancestors have experienced and endured what they did. And I would add, endured it, resisted it, fought back. What was above it? And built a foundation upon which we all stand. You also talk about, well, you talk about the, that's a public understanding of what all of this has meant. You talk about your family personally as well. How difficult was that? You get into some really intense things here about your family. Is it difficult to write about people that you know and people to whom you're close? Because certainly in the black community, when I grew up, we were always taught, not, we didn't talk about our families that much. And I just recently wrote a memoir that's very different from yours, but it's still the question is, how do I talk about people that I grew up with? Was that difficult for you? Did you, is this something that you wanted to do a long time? And I enjoyed your memoir, Juneteenth. It's right here, right beside my computer screen right now. Yes, of course it was. First of all, I had to dig through very painful memories for me, but it was important to do this for me to explain to people why I became obsessed with finding this history. Why this lineage meant something to me. And in order for the story to be well-rounded and to be authentic, I had to dig deep. And I had to disclose some information that many families would have found challenging to have done. And my parents are no longer with us. However, I did check with my siblings before I wrote this story. Oh, that's interesting. I did because I love my family. I wanted them to feel safe and secure. And I did not want to disclose anything that would hurt anyone. So I did check with them. I also wrote about my first husband, my son's dad who since passed away. And I talked with my son before I wrote anything about his father because God knows I was not going to do anything to offend my only child. So sure it was tough. And as I said, indeed it was painful because my childhood until I was 13 felt very ideal. And then all of a sudden it was not. It was important to me about that. To be honest about it. And they were, your siblings had no issue with this, you know, writing? Yes, my siblings were all in. I'm very appreciative to them for that. And in fact, there would have been no book. We would not be here today were it not for my oldest sister, Janice Terry, who was the first to or from whom I first discovered weird Jefferson descendants. And that also happened when I was 13 years old. A lot happened in that 13th year for me. She and I have really had this journey together of uncovering this history. It started with her. You have this sort of an age gap in your family. What was that like being having such a, I was the youngest in my family, but my brothers were four and three years older than me. Not a lot, but your situation is very different. Yeah, I grew up in many ways an only child. In the beginning, my older siblings were there with us. I felt very safe and very protected with them, but they were all gone by the time. Well, most of them were gone by the time I was six years old. Wow. My own family. She's 20 years older. As I mentioned, the closest one to me, my brother is nine years older. Chronologically closest to me is nine years older. And he kind of tortured me when I was a child. But he left for Vietnam when I was still in elementary school. So it was as an adult that I got to know all of them very well. And I come from a close family. And so I'm so glad you asked the question about how I was able to write about them. We're very close. And so all of this happened for me, these relationships as I grew older. And again, it was based on that foundation having grown up as a, having been with them when I was a little girl and feeling very safe with them. So you learned from a sister that you were somehow related to Thomas Jefferson. How did that make you, what was your response to that? So I just want to set this up. My sister, Janice was living in Asia with her husband who was covering the Vietnam War for Time magazine. He was assistant bureau chief in Saigon. And they were at the American Embassy in Saigon at a dinner party. And it was a small gathering. They were the guests of honor. Everyone at the dinner party was wiped with the exception of my sister and a husband. And at this party, my sister explained to my dad, because I was eavesdropping as she told the story. I was not part of the conversation at the time. My sister was visiting us after this, her tour in Asia. At the dinner party, they were discussing their lineage, Janice said. And they were discussing them in this very proud ways. If they were descended from royalty, to which it took great umbrage because we fought a war to get monarchy. And so she was so offended that she decided she wanted to one up every one of the table. Now this is in the 1960s where Congress had been quite taboo. And she looked at her husband. Again, women had a different role in the 1960s as well. And she looked at her husband and he knew it was coming. And Janice, who is very elegant and very beautiful with a swan-like neck, rises to her greatest height. And she says, well, I'm a descendant of Thomas Jefferson. And she said that the whole room went dead silent. You could only hear in the silver touching. And this is a story I overheard her explaining to Daddy when I was 13. So I was stunned because I'd never heard this story. And this is the kind of thing you would think families would talk about. Yeah. And at the time, Jefferson was my favorite president. Even then you had a favorite president. Because he wrote the declaration. And at 13, I was an aspiring writer and it was a remarkable document that gave Americans our history. And remember at 13, I really didn't have a clear understanding of race or racism or being marginalized. Or any of the things that have affected us as a country and not allow white people through the centuries to reach their greatest potential. That was not the life I was aware of at all. I thought Jefferson was extraordinary. And I did not know that Jefferson enslaved people because we weren't taught that growing up. So imagine as a little kid growing up in Washington, D.C., how it could have been related to Jefferson. So it was an obsession for me. I had to find that. So I was kind of shocked. You were shocked by this? Yeah. And so what did you do next? So did you begin your journey for this? What is your journey to figure this all out really begin? I would say almost immediately. Ah. I went to my dad. And my dad was six to freckle faced red hair and had this long nose aside from a slope in the bridge, which years later is the Jeffersonian nose. I thought, wow, maybe there's something here, but I can't imagine what it is. So I started working with my dad and asking questions and prodding him and he was very reluctant to talk about it. But I came up with a scheme to get him to bond with me over football while together and eventually dad ended up telling me many stories about his childhood, including that his mother was from Charlottesville. I'll never forget it. When I first asked dad about this, all he said to me was that's what they say. And eventually he confided that his mother was from Charlottesville. So I perked up. I'm this kid full of enthusiasm. I perked up. I said, well, daddy, Jefferson was Charlottesville. And my father was a very calm kind of guy and he says to me, I know. And they went on from there. So we started. It started years ago. I started right away trying to dig to the bottom of this. Why do you think he was reluctant to talk about it? So my father was a white looking man. My father understood racism. My father understood what it meant to be held back. And he also understood because he was white looking, what white people said about black people when they didn't think we were around. So that bothered him. In addition, he also believed without. I don't think that I'll never know exactly whether dad was fully aware of what happened to his ancestors. I was convinced that one of his ancestors had been compromised. I know that because he said it had been raved or forced into a sexual, unwanted sexual relations. And as a result, that was his history. That was his pain. It's part of it. So I think he struggled with that. That made him angry. I know that made him angry. Elements that made him that served him as an unwanted history. He wasn't part of who we are. Did he ever reconcile himself to, did he know that you were, you know, trying to dig all of this out over the years? So this is a wonderful thing. My dad and I grew to become very close. And toward the end of his brother's life, he took me to visit his brother. I was by this time in my twenties, I'd already been a journalist for a while. And from when we visited, I talked with my uncle's the last time I saw him and he disclosed to me as much as he knew or shared with me as much as he knew about his family, including old photographs, stories about his mother that my dad did not know. Because my uncle was much older, he knew my grandmother longer than my dad did. And so, yes, he was happy after a point to me uncover as much as I could. Of course, I'm not talking many years ago. No one could have imagined them that I would come to work in Monticello. A book about my experiences working in Monticello are about uncovering the family's history. But he was very supportive of whatever my reasons were for uncovering this information. So you grew up in D.C. You go to school there. Yes. What was that like? College. I mean, for young, you know, what was it like to be young African-American during your time period? This was a time of change, of sort of a volatile time with marches and so forth and all of that. Was that in your consciousness at this time? Wow. That's a really good question in there. So, no. Of course not. I went to Howard University in the 70s. When D.C. was renowned as chocolate city. Chocolate city. Chocolate city. And I enjoyed that, never respect. It was a great place to go to college. And I had a great time and there were some people there absolutely who were very aware of racial disparities and inequities. And there were also people there who as I described in the book would have been considered black royals. And regaled and all that that meant, which meant driving sporty cars, having nice apartments, taking wonderful trips. And learning. Of course we learned at Howard University, but we also had a really good time. So, no. Were you in a sorority? I did not pledge. I did not pledge. Why not? Because my brother went to Howard and I gather that was a big part of life there. It was. I considered it. But I decided it wasn't for me. I wasn't willing to go through the necessary poops. I didn't do it. I wish I had. Oh, you do wish you had? Wish I had, yeah. It's interesting about your personality to say that you were in this place where this is a big thing and you just, it wasn't for you. Back in the 70s, it was kind of torturous to get into a sorority at Howard University and many of my friends did. And I'm jealous of them. I wish I had. Because these friendships help form who we are. And those sororities can be very supportive, but I didn't do it. How did you decide on journalism? So I won my first writing award when I was in third grade. I wrote my first newspaper piece or school paper piece when I was in sixth grade. And the name of it was a good little Catholic girl. The name of it was God is great. That was my journalistic piece. I guess I kind of interviewed God for that, but. So I had this idea that I wanted to be a writer. I just didn't know what to do with that apparent talent I had for storytelling. But I was lucky. My sister, as I mentioned earlier, was married to a journalist. His name was Wallace Terry had been in my life since I was a little girl. And he helped, he became my mentor. He helped guide me. And that's how I got into journalism. And he was in fact a professor at Howard University. And I finished high school a year early. Totally unprepared really as a junior. I had one more year to get prepared for college, but I was ready to get out of high school. And because of Wally, I just walked right through the admissions process at Howard University and saw myself as a freshman when I was. I just turned 17. So that's how I got into journalism. My career got me helped me get my first job at the New York Times. And he's really great. He's since passed away. But writing was always a part of your understanding of yourself. Oh, yeah, I'd love to write. And again, that's why I appreciated Jefferson so much because I thought, what an extraordinary document who thinks to write that well and express that well. So I had such respect for him and having had that ability and for the reading that I was able to do and that I did do as a child. So yeah, I wanted to be a writer. I just didn't know how I didn't know what to do with that skill. We grew up around a lot of educators and especially females in that era were directed toward education and teaching. And I have to tell you, I have such respect and such high regard for people who can teach. I talked for a couple of years at VCU Virginia Commonwealth University and I was a total disaster. I'm not good at it. There's some who can just do it and I'm not. And I must have known that as a young person because I decided I didn't want to teach. I tried it as an adult and it just didn't work right. So my instincts as a kid were spot on. Yeah, yeah, it's tough. It's tough to be a good teacher. So after Howard, what next? So after Howard, I went to work for a couple of years at the New York Times at the Washington Bureau. Had you spent any time in New York before then? Much time? Yeah, I had friends in New York, but I was never worked in the New York office. I was in the Washington Bureau. Oh, I see. I see. Occasionally to New York, but I was principally in the Washington Bureau. And this is so long ago. This is before the days of computers. Back in those days reporters used typewriters and they would pull the copy out of the typewriter and yell copy for someone like me to run in and get it and then run it to the room to be transferred up to New York. Such a long ago. And so, and I wrote a few pieces for the New York Times that was part of the tradeoff. Yes, you had to run copy, but if you were enterprising, you would find new stories and convince the news desk that it was worthwhile and you were worthy, a worthy writer and you would get published and I did. So that was pretty exciting. The first piece I wrote was in fact about education. That was the first byline piece. I also wrote lots and lots and lots of obits. So you're still at this time interested in Jefferson and your connection. So at that point, I became less of a focus for me. I was more interested in developing my career and trying to understand where I was going to go, what my journalism career would look like. So I asked about whether I was involved in protests, etc when I was in college. No, but as a university student I did come much more aware of politics, much, much more aware of as I referred to earlier as a social inequities. And I wanted to be part of bringing justice through journalism to underserved communities and the people who looked and who looked like me. I was very much aware of what journalism can do, what advocacy journalism can do. And so I was more focused on that at that point than pursuing the Jefferson question. I want to see come back into the picture for you. So I'm going to Northwestern get a master's in journalism there. And then I began broadcasting and again the focus is on education and became an education reporter. Ultimately, I moved back to Washington, and it was when I returned home from a few years reporting at various stations in Georgia, that I became once again interested in uncovering this history. And I should mention, while I was in Howard at Howard University, that was also a great resource because it was at Howard that I also also focused on learning about Jefferson and the people he enslaved including Sally Hemings. That happened in the 1970s. Some of that in the 1970s and I focused on my career and then when I returned to DC, back in the, gosh, this would have been the 80s, late 80s, I returned to asking questions of, as I said, my uncle, and then of people who were still living my family. So when do you get to send her Stanton and Monticello send her the hero of Monticello's descended community. So what happens, I write about my personal life very openly. I get married I have a son, I divorced my first husband. I have a career. I made my second husband, Jack White, who was, I had a crush on him since. Since I saw him as a Time Magazine correspondent and as a young reporter working in Savannah, Georgia, I saw Jack in 1984 as a panelist on the vice presidential debates and I gasped. So when I was, when I finally met Jack in 2000, I gasped again. And, and eventually married and we ended up moving to Richmond, Virginia, which is where I am now my home, 70 miles from Monticello. And we started going I started going to Monticello as often as time allowed and every time I went to Monticello. The guides would, would sometimes hint, sometimes speak more openly is not the right word but more inclusively about the history of Jefferson and Sally Hemings. And every time I would raise my hand and I would say oh I'm related to Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings because I didn't know at that point what the convention was. Generally, and this I did this several times generally the guides kind of ignored me and said oh that's nice and we moved on. Well, several years ago I took my son, my son was already approaching six feet tall and we were there touring it was his first time. And I said oh we're descended from Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings when the guide introduced the idea of their relations and I pointed to my tall son and I said the two of us are related and the guys are your dignitaries your family was overall take you on the private tour. So at last, after years of this. I got the attention that I was seeking and that's how we ultimately met center stand now guide took us to the dome room and showed us around and introduced us to research your sender was not there but she says there's a woman center who's been working for years with a project called getting word, which is about the enslaved community and about their descendants and we're sure she would be interested in your story. So that's how standard and I met and she's been extraordinary she's a friend I love her. And she's really helped me hone my skills as a as a researcher and genealogist and she helped me find my family. And in doing that, I learned that indeed we are descended from Jefferson through one of his great great grandsons. And we'll send it through Sally Hemings, the one of her brothers Peter. So originally you the thinking was in the assumption would be that it's Tom and Sally. Yeah, because that you defend descended from my knowledge of history. Decades ago was so limited. And my imagination about these relationships was so limited, I couldn't imagine that it would have been any other way, but Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson, but my sister Janice and I couldn't figure out was what the connection was. So, none of it added up. We tried to fill in the blanks but but we couldn't not until several years ago when I met sender and we started finding started finding my family through various records ultimately led to DNA testing, which proved in fact that we are descended from Thomas Jefferson and his wife, Martha. So, we're also descended from john Wales obviously but not only through Sally Hemings but through Martha Wales. The history the DNA is is deep and long. And because now we know that Jefferson's great great grandson had relations with a Hemings woman. I understand that there were multi generations who had of Jefferson related family members who had relationships with Hemings women beginning john Wales took up with Elizabeth Hemings, and then Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, and then Thomas Jefferson son and law after Jefferson's daughter died took up with the Hemings, and then the man who became my great grandfather took up with the Hemings. So that's four generations. What is that tell us that these relationships went on for decades and decades, that these families were intertwined that there were, there were cousins, they were aunts, they were uncles. And again, this is reflective not just of what happened at Monticello, but what was happening all over the country. It's just we know what happened at Monticello. And this shows you to that these sort of mirrors what's going on in white families that this time, you know, in the time period the Randolphs are marrying into the same families they're all mixing up here and they're mixing up with enslaved people, as well. I have to tell you in that. It was through a document that center stand and I had this aha moment, where we found that Peter Hemings who was related to my one Peter Hemings it was several was related was the brother of my great grandmother. In my mother's name, we saw on a death certificate was Sally Hemings, H M M a n s, which is medically sounds like Hemings. If it's pronounced it would sound like Hemings not Hemings. If you're in the south. It was this Eureka moment when sender says sender was the one who spotted the document I didn't look at just found this document. And what do you think of this. And I thought, Oh my God, we've got to look at the next book. We started looking through the Hemings as a Monticello looking through names and trying to find it as much as we could about Peter Hemings. And it was in that process looking through your book and of course her book those who labor for my happiness about the Holy Moly, because at that moment when we were uncovering this, I didn't know who my ancestors were. I knew that I had come through Thomas Jefferson's great great grandson, but I didn't know that the woman he had relations with was a Hemings because her married name was Robinson. That's certificate. It said her name, her name, her married name was Robinson, but her maiden name was Hemings. I didn't know that. So for a few years I didn't know that it was Hemings. So I can put you in your book for helping me uncover that. You're very welcome. That's the thing about these families that, as you know, named each other after one another. White families did it, black families did it, but it was so important for for African American families to do it because as we said they did not have the capacity to enter the records, you know, marriage bands and, you know, birth announcements, those kinds of things, family trees, so what they kept these contacts by naming their bunch of Sally Hemings. You know, so it's not surprising that, you know, I think all of her siblings have someone named after her except for except for Mary and Mary's children are named for other members of their families. So it could see how it could be quite confusing to people, but it was a way of keeping both family ties, keeping things together. So armed with all this information, what do you think about this? How does this make you feel? Because I talked to some people who, you know, in other situations who feel angry, feel sad, feel a sort of a range of emotions. When you discovered all of this and you realized there are all these multiple connections, these people and, you know, people who are enslaving people who are the mothers of their kids and their kids and so forth. How did it make you feel at first? And have your views changed? So, of course, they're married feelings, but ultimately they've made me feel whole. Finding my families made me feel whole. I feel I've been blessed to be able to be a voice for people I never knew, for people who weren't really considered human, for giving them their humanity, for raising them up and presenting them as symbols of Americans, lived Americans. So yeah, I'm grateful. That's the principle feeling I have. Fulfillment and gratitude. Were there times when I felt pain? Anger is not the right word, but there's a part where I read about my great-great-grandmother, whose name was Sally Hemmings Robinson, being whipped as a child. And yeah, how can you not feel anger when you read something like that? But I also was able to read about her ultimate journey, which I write about in the book, and how her life ended. And the only way for me to feel about that is pride, because she was a formidable woman. So I feel a lot of gratitude, a lot of gratitude. So you focus more on those ancestors and see sort of detailing their struggle and the way that they resisted and the way they survived to continue. What about the white people? Yeah, so I mean, the white people are my ancestors as well. And there's been a lot written about Thomas Jefferson, including from you, so I don't need to write another word about them. I have felt a calling for many years now to, as I uncovered some of this information, to write about my black ancestors. They deserve it. And if I can speak for those people who were written out of history, who weren't considered important, then I think that there's some value to the life I've been given. And I keep going back to that same word, gratitude, because that's really what I feel. What about him? I know you don't have to write another word about him, but you said you start out saying that even as a kid, you admired the fact that he wrote the Declaration of Independence. Do you, has your view about him changed over the years, or is it pretty much the same? No, I've read so much in order to work at Monticello. And he was a complex individual, very complex. He was a human being. We cannot think of Jefferson as this person that carved out of a mountain of Rushmore. But as a flawed human being, there were all kinds of things about Thomas Jefferson that I don't like. But a litany of things. And so I've been, the more I've learned about him, the more disappointed I've been and the more disillusioned I've been. I still appreciate that he wrote the Declaration, absolutely. But yeah, he was a tough one. It's more of a mixed legacy for you. Absolutely. Could you have envisioned when you went up to the mountain the first time that Monticello would be doing the kinds of things that you would be working there and that Monticello would be doing the kinds of things that they're doing? Oh, sure. Because that was happening before I came on board. And you were there and you were part of that because of the work you've been doing. What I could not have imagined and that quite frankly is being here having a conversation like this with you. Because of course I followed your career and I knew of your work and I've read your books and so that I could not have imagined. So this is really a real kick for me. And I feel that I'm a very excellent company. Well, thank you. Thank you. So you see that this is a natural outgrowth of what was already taking place when you went there. Yeah, so I'm able to because of my heritage, because of my background, I'm able to accentuate what was happening at Monticello. I mean, I am the embodiment of Monticello's history. I'm an embodiment of that mixed legacy. I have a mixed heritage and people can actually reach out and see what that looks like in me. I represent that. I represent a lot of what American history is. And so I think that I have helped continue that story in a very physical way, quite frankly. How have people responded to you about it? Has the response been generally positive? Because there's a school of thought and I've encountered this among people who say why should black people spend time talking about white relatives who didn't accept them or didn't recognize them? Why should that be a part of anything that we do? Well, first of all, it's history. So if we're going to tell and Monticello, we pride ourselves to telling an inclusive history and an honest history. And it's, I mean, look, history is multi-layered. So it's going to take a long time to keep pulling those layers back and getting to all that has occurred or as much as it has occurred and to explain it to people. It's not about connecting to white people. It's about connecting to our history and it's about reclaiming it. That's why I call the book Reclamation. It is our history. One of the best elements for me in this process has been discovering my black family and bringing my black family together and bringing my cousins to Monticello who were in their 90s who did not know of this connection to Monticello or their connection to the Hamings family. Now, interestingly, they knew that there was someone who should always be named Sally in a generation. In each generation, they weren't exactly sure of the details. So to bring them back or to bring them to Monticello was extraordinary. So Monticello was built by black people. If you look at the bricks thing in the building, you'll see the fingerprints, small fingerprints from children who made the bricks to go into the building. So absolutely reclaim that space. Black people built the capital. We built the White House. So, yeah, it's our space. We need to own it. That's how I feel about Monticello. We need to own it. Black people need to understand and white people need to understand. We all Americans need to understand what our contributions have been and how really strong our people are if we weren't after all that our ancestors endured, but a precedent institution that robbed them of their humanity. And I'm not talking to you Annette because you know this. We are extraordinary people. And that's what the nation is all about. And do you think that's the most important message or one of the most important messages of your book of what you want to convey to people? Yes, that is. I'd love to hear what you think about this story. Well, I think it's an amazing story. The idea of piecing things together like that, which I love, you know, but doing it in the context of your family. You know, I pieced things together about other people, what's going on here, but I'm just, it's fascinating me reading it, thinking of what your feelings were as you were uncovering all of these things that are not abstract. They're not out there. This is about who you are. And it's very powerful. It would seem to be very powerful. That's why I asked how you felt about it. Yeah, as you said, there would be a myriad of feelings about it, anger, pride, gratitude, all of those things mixed together. But for historian working on other people, there's sort of a detachment there that can't, I mean, that this is you. You brought your own memoir and I noted in your memoir, which I really enjoyed that you said you'd wish to talk a little more with your great grandmother. Hot tamales. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's kind of the same thing as in and I wish that I'd gotten a little more information and I one of the takeaways for me from people is, as you conveyed in your book, talk to your elders, extract as much information. Oh, people like to talk. I'm getting to be in that category. The great thing is you written this down. As have you. And you've written it down. And so that that makes it that makes it easier and that will make it easier for the other generations to come in and to draw on it. So, what has your I just asked you about your thinking about the people in the past whites in the past. What is your relationships been like with the Randolph's and the tailors and the people today. I have rewarding relationships with many of the Randolph's and the tailors and the absence. It was through one of the Randolph descendants tail and Randolph descendants that I was able to get the DNA testing so there was some shaky business there I mean I think that that was a rocky story, but things were right it. It was it was started. It's it's in the book. It started. I'd rather people read about it. Okay, okay. Fair enough. Fair enough but but decide suffice to say you have had contact with these with people. Yeah, absolutely. I stay in touch with some with some family members quite regularly. And they've been very supportive. There's there's a difference though I mean I have met new white cousins and new black cousins, and I write about this too and there's a difference in how I relate to how we relate to each other how I relate with my white cousins and how we relate to my black cousins. How. Yeah, you can't see that up without. There is there was almost with my black cousins and an instantaneous familiarity, a feeling of family without having to work at it. And with my white cousins. It has required more work. It was that instant connection. That's interesting because it really shows you what what race means in the country. I mean that somebody is someone's a cousin. I just recall being a kid. And we were supposed to talk about ancestry talk about where our people came from and so forth and obviously for African American so most of us at that time. There was no way to know where in Africa people came from. The family lore in my family is a being of English, you know, a grandfather great great grandfather was of English extraction and one we can presume was Irish. And saying that and people saying that's not true. I mean in a place that's where people are all mixed up and obviously visibly looking at pictures and looking at, you know, my grandmother other people you would say obviously that there is some mixed ancestry here but you are not supposed to claim that. And you're supposed to act as if that thing that never happened that it was impossible to happen. So even when you say to people, it's clear that the two of you that you are related to two individuals. Whiteness puts a barrier between you it's like there's a there, even if you're blood related you are still separated by the idea that, you know, one is white and one is black. It's amazing and but for blacks, even if they don't they could be as equally strangers to you as the whites but there is a point of connection that comes through the blackness. It's that shared history. We have that shared experience connection comes through absolutely through the blackness and there's no barrier to work through. As I said, when I wrote this in the book when I met one of my one of the cousins lost in the family separation when I walked in her home it felt like walking to the home in which I grew up. There's just a comfort level there. And I had to work. I really had to work with my white cousins, and I think they had to work with me. I wrote that shorter piece and she said she wasn't I'm going to misquote her but she wasn't accustomed to looking across the color line to see familiar or identical facial characteristics. And I think that's a good point. That's a valid point. I wasn't used to doing it with my white cousins, but with my cousins, I was like, oh yeah, we got the same skin tone. Oh, you've got freckles too. And there was just this familiarity and this comfort level that was just there from the moment I crossed the threshold. So I can't ask you to predict, but I will ask you to predict. Okay. I should ask you to predict. But do you think we'll get over this? Yes. So is this a barrier that can be surmounted or taken? And so I am an optimist. And their people as I keep saying their people are far more sage than I who are not able to answer this question. So I can't say if we'll ever get over it, but as an optimist, I can say I certainly hope that we can. I see in with my son, it comes mom bragging my son, my T grad. I see with him and the relationships that he has with his friends that are very diverse. And they can they talk about race and it's just no big deal and they just move on with it. Not as I did and not as I have, I have white friends. But my relationships with most of them. I've had some I've had for a really long time, but with most of them, it's a, again, as it is with my family, it takes a different kind of work with him and people, some people of his generation, you're here at Harvard. So you know how it is with young kids. They seem to be a little more easy about it. Determined to address the inequities that exist and have existed since the country was founded and really prior to the country's family. Is that what you're finding? Yeah, well, I would say, although we're an interesting time now in the country, because there appear to be some young people and not so young people who still aren't convinced that we are truly American that black people were truly American that we are part of the people. And so I on one hand I'm hopeful, but I'm cautious because I were at a moment. I didn't know that at a moment when our whole system everything seems to be up for grabs in lots of ways. This is a very, very tricky time. But I want to remain optimistic as well. What role do you think Monticello can play in this? So would you hope I mean you suggested that they've been at this now for and we know they've been at this now for a long time. I do think in the last two or three years things have been kicked up considerably as they I think developing more of a vision of how the foundation wants to enter into these discussions. What do you think? What are your hopes for that? So you're right, it has kicked up since 2018 in particular when Monticello opened several exhibitions, including the life of Sally Hemmings. Sally Hemmings not as an appendage of Jefferson, but as a full fully developed human being as a world traveler, a seamstress and emancipator. And they have to who survived into adulthood were emancipated or allowed to walk away from the plantation at the age of 21. We have the getting where expression about the descendants we have the original kitchen where my ancestor Peter Hemmings cooked. That's so totally cool that you're the set of the Peter Hemmings. Thank you. I mean he's he's more mysterious than other members of the Hemmings family, but it seems to have had one interesting life himself. I, you know, I felt was looking at the book I found myself drawn to any reference to him because of all the whales. I think it's probably because he was younger than Robert and Robert and James. He never seemed to develop the kind of he wasn't a servant to Jefferson in the same way. He didn't travel around with him or whatever. So he kind of gets he's important, but he doesn't get as much airtime in the letters as others. And so I think that's really it's neat you and Andrew have a connection to him. I do too. And I think he's a really interesting person when when Peter didn't want to cook. He was he was another tough one when Peter got tired of cooking and just, you know, I'm done with this now. You know, get me out of the kitchen and learn a new skill and become a Taylor Taylor and become a brewer brewer. And and and Jefferson agreed. Yeah. And so I think that he was I mean, I know he was intelligent and described him diligent. But as I write that did save him from being auctioned there on the West lawn, six months after Jefferson died on July 4 1826. Now, he was one of the lucky ones at first he was he was older at this point maybe in his 50s at first he was listed as $100 on the ledger. I was just to think about it. You asked me how I feel. Well, I'm now I'm having one of those moments where I feel really distested by the whole process. But he was lucky because he was purchased by a nephew. Farley, you'll know that name. Yes. And for $1. And there was a gentleman's agreement. The whites did did not bid on Peter, allowing Daniel to purchase him for $1 and he was get freed. He was made by his own nephew. He was a free man, but but the rest of his family remained enslaved. His wife is saved as did his children. So yes, he's a very interesting character. The Hemmings is an interesting people. So I'm glad you're I'm glad that you are fascinated by him as am I. So the next step for the foundation Monticello, what would you if you were the Zarina, the whole thing. What would you want to have more exhibits, conferences, entering into conversations more. All of that. I think that it's important for Monticello to continue reaching out to the black community to help to present programs that are compelling and interesting to people whose backgrounds were relate again to those who were enslaved there. This is not to exclude anyone, obviously, this is to be inclusive. I would like to see more programs like that I would see like to see more programs devoted to American Indians of course that's who. Yeah. Before Jefferson did and before the enslaved people did I would like to see more of that. I would like to see continued commitment to uncover more stories and speaking as often and as and as comprehensively as we can about these families. We run, not going to go backward we're going to go forward and we're going to tell more stories. And, and more more out we just keep reaching out to those communities to help people understand that this is truly an American story. Monticello is the microcosm of what happened in the United States of America in every respect and we must all be there and I encourage everyone to be there to hear that story and understand how it was contributed by the black people who were enslaved there. American story period. I agree with you. Well, thank you very much and thank you for telling your story it's a riveting book and deeply personal and the detective story in lots of ways, all the fun of discovering and uncovering history for people who love those kinds of things and many others do but it's a valuable lesson as you said, not just a personal story but it's a story for for all Americans of whatever whatever color. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with me and enjoy your tour. This is fun. Okay, great. Thanks a lot. Take care. Okay, bye bye. Bye bye.