 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome to episode 42 of The Therapy Show with Jackie Jones and the wonderful Mr Bob Cook. And what we're going to be talking about this week is the use of silence in therapy or silence in therapy. Yeah, before I start on that, I really like your reminding me of time chronology. You know, this is the episode 42. Yeah, we've got 43, 44. I like that because it gives me a sense of time chronology. And also, I think, oh gosh, this is quite a body of work we're doing, which is quite nice. Yes. And for anybody that it's the first time they've listened, they can go back and listen to 41 other ones. Now, silence. Now, how about starting with what you just started with our fair to me about silence and then I'll, I can talk about it. Yes. When I first qualified, silence petrified me in the therapy room. I felt so uncomfortable. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say in the early days, I filled the silence with meaningless chatter to just fill the silence. Yeah. I understand that. And of course, a lot of therapists have their own issues about having to fill silence. Just like you said, very, very, very common. Silences are very common in the therapeutic process. Very powerful as well, though. Very powerful. And therapists and clients have their own issues about silence, I think. And on any psychotherapy training program, the use of silence is often taught and what to do with silence and the countertransference of the therapist's issues around transfer, I mean, about silence and how important silence is. So silence in many ways, of course, is, you know, time for, you know, to reflect. So in other words, the therapist may just hold the silence to give the client the time to reflect on what you're talking about, time to think about their own inner processes. Yeah. Silence might also be how one discussion points ends and another one starts. So, you know, there's these ways. But I think particularly to allow the client to take ownership of their own reflection of their inner processes. Yeah. It's a really important consideration of when silence occurs in the psychotherapeutic process. Yeah. And I think what you said is exactly right, as always, Bob. You know, it's what silence means to us as individuals and what that can represent. And yeah, how, yeah. For me, when I was growing up, silence usually meant that there was trouble brewing. Which is why I don't like silence. It usually meant that there was trouble on the horizon when I was at home. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be your own therapeutic issue and might be part of the counter transference that you looked at in your training to be a therapist and everything that goes with that. And, you know, when I, as I've just said, a client, I think it's really important for clients to have the time. Yeah. Take ownership of their own reflections and their own inner world. Yeah. What's happened. And then, of course, we have to think developmentally as well in terms of what silence meant, just like you've just talked about for you. Yeah. And how the person looked at how the past often gets, you know, played out in in the present and the sort of relationships they might pick. So they might pick people who, if you're going to recreate, you know, recreate history might be different, might be the same. But if they feel like they've been, you know, dismissed or they feel like they're not assertive or they feel like they're quiet in relationships, the actual clue to this will be developmental. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I can remember in a supervision once asking my supervisor, is there a limit to how long people should be quiet for? At what point do we break the silence? They said that they've spent virtually a whole session in silence. Well, that's an interesting one, because when does silence become punishing? Yeah. It's a question mark. So I think that would be too long for me. Psycho-analytically, I understand it. Client-centered counselling, I understand it. But, you know, for some people, in their histories developmentally, they may have, it might be a place where silence became punishing, or they were punished if they spoke, or, you know, we could go on with the decisions, or perhaps one of the slogans in the client's history in their family of origin was, you know, kids should be seen and not heard. Yeah. But they thought they had to, you know. So I think it's dangerous, personally, but dangerous is a strong word. But I think it's naive, actually, to just always wait for the client to speak. Yeah. I think I would inquire. Yeah. What's happening to you now? That's it. Yeah. Yeah. How are you feeling with the silence and bring it into the room as opposed to it just happening if that makes sense? Yeah. Without a doubt. And it's a very, very good question. It's a very good question to your supervisor. You know, how long do we wait as therapists to, and I don't think as a, I don't think there's a sort of right answer to this, but I think you all get a clue if you've done some, what they call a TA script analysis. Yeah. You had the past effects are present. Yeah. Looked at, you know, what silence meant for somebody developmentally in their history will give you a clue. Yes. To when to reach what silence means for a person. Yeah. Because again, touching on what you said earlier on, you know, about silence can be punishing. I think, you know, that's a really relevant thing if we're ignored as a punishment, you know, or sent to Coventry when we're growing up and nobody speaks to us and things like that, then silence is going to be, you know, yeah, punishing in the therapy room. Oh, and it may be, it may be. So it's very important, I think, to ask the questions that you just brought up, you know, you know, as you're reflecting here or, well, see, that's an assumption. So I probably wouldn't even say that. You know, I probably inquire like you said, I probably inquire and say, you know, could you tell me what's happening for you on the inside at the moment? Yeah. So it would be what I call a phenomenological inquiry, looking at what's actually happening. Yeah. Turn 11. Now they might say, oh, well, I don't know. Or you see, there's many reasons why somebody can be silence. One of them could be fear. Yeah. One of them could be they frozen themselves. Yeah. One of them could be the highly adapting to you. Yeah. There's many different reasons. So you can inquire in the here and now, and you could also inquire developmentally. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's the best food. Yeah. Because there are times where it's a comfortable thing in the room as well. You know, only the other day, literally, as soon as I put the camera on, the client broke down crying. You know, obviously, something had happened. And, you know, all I said was it's okay. Take a minute. Take as long as you need. It's okay. And it was a comfortable silence. It didn't feel heavy or abandoned or anything. It seemed appropriate at the time. Yeah. And that's because I suspect two or three reasons. Once I expect you've got a relationship with the client. Yeah. And second reason, which is, I think, really important is that you gave a permission. You know, two permission transactions there. Yeah. If you take your time, it's okay to be, you know, you were giving permissions and you knew the history, I suspect, of the client. But you know, with that one in particular, I brought the silence. Oh. Again, it could be, you know, me looking at my developmental stages, but I thought it was more comfortable for me to break the silence than for them to break the silence. Yeah. You're absolutely right. So, I think, I mean, I've said it four times, developmental inquiry is very important. Now, I'll give you a example of something. In 1993, I think it was, I went to the minister's centre in London, which is a training for psychotherapy centre, psychoanalytically, if you like. And I went to some training in a psychoanalytical framework called object relations. Now, that's the sort of part of the psychoanalytical sort of tradition object relations. But the thing I wanted to tell you, I was doing some training and the person who was training me was a psychoanalyst. And she said, in part, the training, would anybody like to have a go on the couch? And what that means is the major tool for psychoanalysts, traditionally, classically, there still is for some. Though a lot of these psychoanalysts have moved off the couch now, is the person lies down on the couch. There's free association. And you can say what you want to say or can say nothing. And then the analyst in the 50 minutes might make one or two or three interpretations. It's a different type of approach to healing were very popular 100 years ago. And in fact, forging analysts, young analysts are still very popular. And I remember, oh, I said, I'll have a go then. And I lay on the couch. And it was the quickest way for me to go into paranoid fantasies, I know of. Wow. And, you know, because I went straight into I wonder what the person's thinking about me. I would only think wrong. So the silence became bearable. So I just talked to Philip, really, but that was intense fear. And I think for a lot of clients, especially the more disturbed clients, if you don't know their histories, you don't really know what silence means for them. No, no. And that's that's really important, Bob, what you've said there. Yeah, you don't know what it means to them. Yeah. You can guess on the schizoid clients, clients that are withdrawn, particularly, they'll present a social self. And if they think they think the therapist once silence to continue, they'll just be silent. If they think they want the therapist to just fill the space, they'll fill it. So I think we really do need to know what silence means for a person in their history. If you're just going to use the technique of silence as a way of, I don't know, attempting to trigger some processes or, or even if you'd go down the line of allowing them to take responsibility for their own inflection, I understand that. And I think it's very apt, as I said, in many places. However, I think there's a trick missing if you don't know what silence means for them. Yeah. Yeah. Because we can easily, again, you know, I know we spoke about in the past, we can project our own thoughts and feelings around silence onto the client as in, oh, this is how I feel when I'm quiet. So maybe that's what they're feeling. We don't know. We don't know at all. No. And I do know that many clients do feel what you said at the beginning. And most of this, you don't know where they're thinking, for example, I wonder what the therapist thinks I should be doing here. Perhaps I should be a perfect client and keep quiet. Or perhaps I should be a perfect client to say something. I wonder what the therapist is thinking about me. Perhaps there's something wrong with me. So I'd better just keep my head down. Yeah. My job to speak, or is it those, do I stay quiet until they start talking? What are the rules around silence in the therapy room? Yeah. And it is a useful, you know, to think about. But I'll say it again, if you don't know what silence means in their history, then you've got a hard road to follow really and you could get it drastically wrong with clients. You could actually go down a road where you repeat history for the client. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which I suppose again, it's always best I find and it works well for me to bring everything back into the room. You know, and to share how I felt in that situation and, you know, potentially how you were feeling in that situation and things and just bring everything back and have an open discussion about that. That's why I love therapy. Well, yes, yes and no. I mean, I'm not, I don't want to take away from relational therapists who may or may not use the relationship. And if you get somebody's, you know, a skistoid with dorm clients, somebody who's drivers being perfect or particularly pleasing other people, then they're just going to agree with you or they're just going to go along with the year when you go back and when they listen to you talk about what means for you, they'll probably adapt and fulfil. So I think, you know, when people would say about working relations to me, I think a question, I know this podcast is not about this, but they need to ask themselves what relationship are they talking about? Yeah. So I don't want to, and this podcast isn't about relational work. No, but it's valid. It's an important thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to say, also, there's not, you know, dismiss what you've just said about bringing everything back into the relationship is it can be very useful. But it also may be repeating history for them. Yeah. So for example, let me give you an example of something, right? Yeah. Now, in my household, one of the worst frightening aspects for me was sitting around a table and talking with people or my family of origin. Yeah. That is the worst thing possible, because it was very excruciating and everything was termed as my fault if I open my mouth. Or that's what I thought anyway. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, if we think, I'm thinking of another person here, particularly a friend of my daughter who had a, I don't know, I could think of many clients, actually, who they had a, they had a history where they had wonderful time at the dinner table. It was where the family actually had the most sense of intimacy. They were given permissions to actually talk about themselves and to actually express things. So for them, talking, they were given permission to talk. So we have two completely different. Yeah. And then what happens is, the people make their own scripts and their own decisions from their early developmental history. And then that gets played out in the relationships they choose and their life they then choose. So I could have gone down a way, which probably for a lot of my life I might have done, which was to be, well, I didn't become a monk, but kept away from relationships. Yeah. Yeah. So think about silence, for me, in the therapy room was purgatory. Yes. Yeah. For another person, it actually, it was really important that they talk that, you know, their aspect of silence was difficult for them. So until you know what silence means, you can end up repeating history for someone. Yeah. And it is all these little nuances that, that we don't know how it impacts on the other person. You will buy developmental inquiry then. Yes. Yeah. Which is, I suppose, what I'm going on about in this podcast, I know. And I think it's why we're going on out. I think it's because therapists themselves can assume that just silence is always useful in the psychotherapy process. And out of that, you will go XXX and it's not necessarily true. No. No. And I can understand that. I find it excruciating. Like I said, I feel like I need to fill it with something. Yeah. And then what I used to do when I was younger, I would distract from the silence and, you know, metaphorically, I was that kid in the corner doing a little dance, trying to keep everybody happy because it was so heavy in the room. Yeah. The therapist might say, oh, well, that just shows, it's almost to the grill or whatever the phrase is. And that may be true. And you might get it dreadfully wrong. So I think we need to think a lot about what silence means and, you know, and also what silence means for the therapist. Yeah. Which is a really big subject area. You know, in terms of the counter transference. Yeah. Because sometimes, as far as the counter transference, you know, putting that aside a bit, but sometimes the client needs time to think and to reflect. Yeah. And if there's a big disconnection between thinking and feeling, then it's useful to have space to perhaps take ownership of what they might be thinking and feeling without the therapist taking ownership of what the client may be thinking and feeling. Yeah. I'm filling in the gaps for them. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that's taught in most client-centered courses, that's taught as a way of looking at silence. And this is a very way, a very important way and an important way of thinking. And I think it's very important. And I believe there's also other things to consider. Yeah. To be fair, Bob, in like everything in the therapy room, it's a minefield. You're dodging bullets and stepping over tripwires all the time. People often still say to me, oh, so you're just sitting in a room and talking with people. And it's like... Well, it is at one level, that's true. And at another level, I'd say people's. Yes, yeah. People. It's not singular, it's plural. Yeah. Was it teaching that you're talking to the younger self? Yeah. You're talking to the elder self, you're talking to the dissociated self, you're talking to the withdrawn self, you're talking to the angry self. So it's plural rather than singular. Yeah. And the other thing, I know we're probably going off track a bit here now, but I think it was Steffi who once said in a therapy session that, you know, in the therapy room, it's like an amphitheater. So I've got that many parts of me in the room and, you know, the client has got that many parts of themselves in the room, you know, and our parents and our parents' parents and our parents' parents' parents' parents. Literally, it's a wonder any work gets done in there because there's that many people in the room. Yeah. You're talking about Steffi, because she's my wife, so she's very wise things. But I'm going to, and I'm going to say something that I would give a plea for contracts because if you have contracts right at the beginning of the cycle therapy and start to look at what the person wants or doesn't want, then you can concentrate more on one thing. I know many other things come up in the process of therapy, but you can always we contract, but you can look more specifically, but Steffi is right, as she often is in many ways. There's many different echoes and ghosts and different types of people and historical avenues in the therapy room. So it's in many ways, silence can be dead, deadening and very loud. Yeah. It's just something that always stuck with me. It's a vision or a visualization that I always have. It's a good one to have, because I think it can remind us of the fact that so much actually is happening for the two people in the room. Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, looking at what you've been talking about, about the integrative cycle therapy and we all have different masks on and different sides of ourselves and everything. I agree completely with what you say. It's not a person. It's persons that are in the room. Yeah. Whether that's developmental and was that different ages or whether that's different parts of ourselves? It's a bit like the matrix in there. It is. And I think it's really important to think about silence, as I said in development, but also to give the person the, or allow the space to come to fruition so that the client can start to put connections and thinking and feelings. But also, of course, maybe they've never had somebody listen to them in the silence again. Yeah. Do you, you know, I suppose it is something to do with silence. Would you ever play music in the therapy room? Oh, I've done that so many times. Have you? If a client felt uncomfortable in a quiet space, would you have background music or anything? Oh, no, I thought you were going to say something else. How I done music therapy. I thought it was going to be the question. That'd be a good podcast, by the way. You're talking about something different, aren't you? You're talking about having music on in the therapy room as a soothing object. Yeah, maybe. You know, if a client was feeling overwhelmed with the silence in the room that, you know, they could potentially ask for some sort of background music to be on while they were in there. Or, you know, I'm one of those therapists that I'm up for anything if a client says it's not hard rock or anything. But you see, I think the most important question is how will this help you or hinder you? Yeah. That's the question. So how will this help you or hinder you in terms of the therapy process? So, yes, we could go and put some music on. And how will that help you? Or how, in fact, may it hinder you? I think that has to be an inquire, again, a developmental inquiry before anyone just goes along. Because often it's a defense process to take them away from contact with you, to take them away from contact with themselves, and maybe to take themselves away from their own histories. So I'd want to know the purpose of the plea. Yeah. Because if my job is to help them get in touch with themselves and heal themselves, then I need to ask that question. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes therapy can be about learning to be comfortable in an uncomfortable feeling. Learn to be comfortable in an uncomfortable feeling. Well, that's an interesting one. I'm not quite sure what you mean about it, but I think if it developmentally, again, I can perhaps make sense of that transaction. I'm not sure how you meant it. Well, if we're feeling anxious or worried or anything, then it's knowing that it's okay to be anxious and worried. We can be okay in a not okay feeling, if that makes sense. A feeling isn't going to harm us. A feeling is not going to hurt us. It's about learning that it will pass. Oh, well, that's a different permission. Yes, absolutely. But we need to get to the source of anxiety, surely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. If you remember, most clients have come through the door and again, this isn't the podcast, but are unconsciously trying to distract you and take you away from actually getting to the connection. Yeah. And then if you're going to get seduced into that, then you will just keep in keeping the process of comfort and adult processes, but you won't get down to what it's really about. Yeah. That's another good title for a podcast looking at trap doors and open doors and those sort of things. What I call the fence system check. Yeah. Yeah. Try it's a really good deflecting and yeah. But you see, Jackie, they've had to be. Yes. Yeah, of course. And I do it. But it's not the therapist's job to get carried away with that. No. Because if they do, then they're really helping the clients repeat history, really. Yeah. Most clients don't know what they want probably, but more and much more important. They, of course, will be always attempting to deflect the therapist from where they actually need to go because it's too painful. Yeah. Silence might be one of them. Yes. Yes. A sign of place might be too overwhelmingly painful for them. They'll do anything to not go there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, again, it's a really good point, particularly if there are any, you know, newly qualified therapists. That is what clients do. They will avoid going to the place. Yeah. Change happens and therapeutically. Yeah. As a defense and a survival mechanism. Yeah. You're not doing them any service to go with, you know, with the deflection. No. You may choose to do it clinically because the timing is not right. Yeah. But that's a different podcast, the use of timing within the therapeutic process, perhaps. Yeah. So you may choose to, from a clinical place, to come back to it later. Yeah. Yeah. So is silence golden, Bob, as it says in the song? I don't know. I do know that there needs to be an inquiry about what silence means for the client. Yeah. Yeah. Before the therapist willy-nilly decides to just never talk in the therapeutic process. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think I do have a cutoff point, I think. Obviously, taking on board what I'm seeing in the client. If a client is upset and they're just composing themselves and they need, you know, some space. I've had clients actually need to go out with the room to just, you know, go to the bathroom and wash their face with water and then come back and then kind of, it's a different person that walks in through the door than the one that was out. They're just not ready to share certain things at that moment. Yeah. And then the therapist needs to ask, going away from the silence or going away from me, did that help or did that hinder the process? Yeah. Yeah. I love listening to you, Bob. So what do we know? Do we know what we're doing next time on episode 43? Yeah. I sent you a long list. The biggest list of topics in the world. And I don't know what was the one on the list under silence, but do you know? I don't know. Are we going to surprise people? We'll just surprise people. Yeah. But I'm going to get this list out. So at least I know. I actually copied it and I've got it on a Word document. I could get it up and look at it, but I'm not going to do. We'll surprise people. Surprise people for the next one. Yeah. I went through those. It took me about was while I was watching the Peaky Blinders or an episode of Peaky Blinders from 2013, I wrote at least 60 or 70 topics, which I sent to you. It was two pages full, Bob. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll take one of them. Yes. Yes, we will. Okay, Bob. Thank you. I'm just really talking about these two. I enjoy talking about silence because, you know, I think there's so much counter-transference for the therapist around silence. Yes. Yeah. Definitely. There was for me. Yeah. What's how we started the podcast? Yes, definitely. And I'll end it that same way. I'm better at it. I'm better. I'm better in my own silence and my own thoughts. A lot better. Therapy has worked really well for me as well. I think going through the process of it all, I always get something from my clients as well. Yeah. And you also, perhaps I should pay for it a bit, but... Yeah. Seriously. Sometimes I think that. The other thing as well that often comes to me, and maybe we should do one on this, is that sometimes the universe gives me clients at certain times. I'm experiencing something and then suddenly I will get clients where I'm working on myself in the process, which is a bit weird. I think anybody listening to this, especially for their therapist, will have empathy about that sentence. I've heard it so many times and I think it's true in some synchronistic way. Yes. The universe is... Somewhere. Somewhere in all of this. Right. Okie dokie. Until next time, Bob. Thank you so much. Ok, thank you. Bye-bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.