 Yes, so once we identify potential leaders and we nurture them for growth, obviously there will be a journey that they need to make. So they'll go from the preparation stage where they are discovering their area of ministry, their gifts and all of that to the initial stage when they actually start doing the work of the ministry. At this point, the elders, the leaders are providing the necessary guidance, training, equipping and direction to the person. Then once this person is ministering, maybe they settle in a little more comfortable in their role. At this point again, there needs to be a support because maybe the person needs help making decisions and growing the ministry. So an elder or a leader above them can continue to guide this person and also provide them regular feedback. Feedback is so important because one could be doing things but never realizing where the loopholes are and if something can be done which will make the ministry work better. So regular feedback also will be helpful. So one settles in this manner, then there's the growth stage where again as a leader, one continues to support the growing leader and providing maybe high level vision kind of inputs and direction to the individual. Then in a majority stage where they're making a significant impact through that ministry which they are heading up. And then of course is the transition stage. Transition stages, when an individual is serving in an area, it is also possible that God we want them to branch out into other assignments. So after a while if this person, their ministry, whatever they've done, there's a ceiling, they hit the ceiling and it's become redundant. As a leader, one needs to talk to this ministry leader and see if they can look at something else. Maybe you want another person to come into this ministry area and the ministry leader to actually move into something else that God is calling them to do. And this stage can be difficult because sometimes we want to stick to that, what we had started in the beginning, we just want to stick to that ministry. But growth will not happen if we just change. So sometimes transition is also necessary. Now in guiding and leading a leader, we have seen the example of Paul and Timothy. We've seen how there was a special bond that Paul took Timothy along. There were opportunities for Timothy to learn because he watched Paul on the missionary journeys. And also sometimes Paul left Timothy in some cities to continue the work while he was not there. So it's like throwing somebody in the deep, whether you like it or not, you have to swim. So now give opportunities, give them exposure, also teach them through life example, show them how they must conduct themselves, provide feedback, encouragement, bring in correction wherever necessary. So in all these ways, we can nurture a leader. We can also, in mentoring, we've talked about, you know, accountability, transparency, giving specific directions. So all of that needs to be done. We regard this person highly. We delegate responsibility to them. We release them into the work of the ministry which God has for them. So it's important to identify leaders, nurture leaders, and position leaders. And when it comes to a local church's functioning, particularly the fight for ministry areas, no one must look out for those who have been called and anointed by God to serve in all these ways. So someone who is an evangelist, a prophet, teacher of the word, pastors, and prophets. So we continuously look and look for and nurture such people and then we know that the church will be strengthened. So that's about nurturing leaders. Anything to discuss about over here? Okay, Kennedy has a comment here. Okay, he's saying, what about wealth? Like in case of Lydia or Priscilla and the husband, because you need money to run some ministries. Okay, so you say it depends on the way the church has planned the ministries. So, for example, here at ABC, centrally from the church, you know, the support that is required for that particular ministry, if it's a church ministry, then that support is given. But I do know there are some organizations where they tell the ministry leader to raise funds. Okay, but that works for that ministry. And you know, such ministries have also been running for years. And they've been, they've banished through it. I don't know how. So it really depends on the ministry, Kennedy raising the money which they need. So here in case of Lydia and Priscilla, so you see Lydia already, like she was a rich businesswoman. So she had a lot of money and then she was supporting the work of the ministry in Philippine. And Priscilla came from a very wealthy family. But what we read about Priscilla is that she joined her husband, Aquila, and they together with Paul, they were what is known as tent makers. So they were trying to sustain themselves in the work of the ministry. Their primary assignment seems to be teaching. So they were teaching along with Paul. They were the ones who sort of helped Apollos learn new things in the ministry. However, I mean, I don't see Priscilla using her wonderful rich background in any way. But they earned and they worked. Okay, so that's how Aquila and Priscilla managed their money. So does that help Kennedy? Yeah, it's okay. And without that concern, because their vocation is where you need to check in financially or materially support. So could it be a career to consider helping somebody Yeah, so I think I'll depend on the church administration, Kennedy. What church has planned. All right. I guess, Sam, you have a question? Yes, I have a question, last comment, I guess. Can you hear me? Sorry, my background No, that's okay. Go ahead. Yeah, it's fine. It sounds okay. Okay, great. First, I've been thinking, I mean, especially this year, as we are coming towards the close of this semester, I'm looking at theology, my own expectations and what we've been learning. So, theology as a study as a subject, getting clarity on concepts such as baptism, Holy Spirit, deity of Christ. So these are theological concepts which has been really fruitful and has given so much clarity. But at the same time, I mean, this year especially, I think, especially with the local church and even kingdom builders, we've gone a little bit, I would say, at least in my understanding, a little, you know, probably extended theology, more in terms of, you know, we're looking at administration, we're looking at leadership, mentoring, and especially when you're talking. And I've been, I mean, there are two things that I've been thinking. One is, I think the whole module on leadership, if there was a scope to probably dedicate some more time on leadership because I am, as you're talking to me, because I'm imagining myself and a lot of things that you're seeing, you know, and as I look in the journey ahead. And I feel there's more understanding required, more exploration required. That's one. And also the other thing I'm thinking is, as I look at our own definitions, I'm thinking maybe the role of leadership teacher has evolved over the centuries, you know, like, for example, the teacher or leader, one of the things is they would have to be a source of knowledge, like even Paul or even the priests that they looked because they were not, everyone was educated, everyone didn't know how to read, write. So there were these privileged people. The temple was an institution, not just for worship, but also for young priests to learn, read, write, and then they could, you know, then explain what the scriptures said to common men. But now is no longer the case, you know. I don't think the teacher can be the source of knowledge. You go to Google and you put in a scripture and you ask for an explanation. There are, I mean, they're really refined, well articulated sources, which may be aligned to your own teaching. But I think the point that I'm trying to make is, you know, this whole concept of potential leaders, like, what does that even mean? Like, you know, people, like in my mind, I'm thinking everyone is a potential leader. Like everyone has accountability, can be accountable, can gift it differently. So then that takes me back to, okay, what is a leader then? You know, like, if it's a potential leader, like, what is a leader and what potential are you looking for? Or even teacher or mentor. So I'm thinking, so I'm, I'm getting a little muddled into, like, you know, maybe 10, like with, with how things are changing so fast. The role of a leader in the next 10, 15 years could be very different from, from the way we see it now. And I think it would be valuable to just spend some time exploring that. So these are the thoughts that I'm getting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you, Samuel. Yeah, I, I, I do understand. So, you know, you're saying that the role of a leader, it's, it's, again, the way you describe it's like, it's evolving. Okay. And depending on the, all the advances in the world, one would need to kind of, you know, also, if I can use a term like reinvent themselves as a leader, and keep leading people. So yeah, Samuel, I understand. I understand the changes that need to come in and, you know, and also the, the fact that everyone is a leader in their own right. Now we are talking more specifically about those who are potential leaders in a local church setting. Okay. And when we talk about people who are leaders in the local church setting, it's, it's more than just, you know, being able to lead them in some, something that I'm good at. Okay. So let's say I'm good at singing. So it's not about helping people sing better. There is so much more in Christian leadership. So if I may use some terms, Samuel, and I'm sure you will find these terms when you lead, read, you know, books on Christian leadership or listen to sermons on Christian leadership. But the terms like life example, it's more than providing information. Okay. So a leader should be such that you can, you can learn to live, you know, from that person's life. So life, for example, is one term. Another term is impart. Okay. Impart is more than providing knowledge. Impart is, again, you could look at that in a spiritual way, right? It's, it's like the grace that one has on their life. And as they are serving people, there's something spiritual that, that is strengthening the people, you know, as, as they go along. So the grace of God, you know, the impartation into the lives of the people, nurturing, okay, nurturing is another term. So I'm just helping you see that, you know, leadership is more than just driving a ministry or running an organization. We were talking about building people by the spirit. Okay, which we have already touched on in Kingdom Builders. So Christian leadership, you know, that is the reason we enlisted all these characteristics. Yes, everyone can lead, you know, leading a ministry. Yeah, we can teach people how to organize, how to have a structure, what are the principles. It's more than that. It's about grace. It's about anointing. It's about impartation. It's about, you know, Godly wisdom. It's about, you know, strength, helping people mature in the spirit. So there's so much more to Christian leadership than the leadership, not the general leadership that, that we see out there in the world. Okay, not that it's bad, but here we're looking at people who can strengthen the work of God, you know, as a local church body. So yeah, if that makes, if at all it sounds a little distinct, yeah, I just want to leave you with those thoughts. If I could just add one thing, exactly along the same line, like, for example, the things, the examples that you give, like, say, life example. Right. Now, if let's say, a bunch of people like gathered, you know, and that's such a broad term, like, in my life, life example, there would be a lot of things that, and probably I'm in the leadership position there, but there are a lot of things that I'm doing right and my life testimony, you know, the people who know me, but I could still have some areas where someone else, let's say, you know, we deem that person as a follower, not an leader, but, but that follower also could have some life examples that are better than mine. Yeah, yeah, sure. And similarly, so, so it's, so I think my whole point is who is a leader then, because when we talk about all the other attributes, like all the other potentials, because there are degrees, like some people are different, like some people are good in something and not so good and need support, and some leaders equally are really good in something, some leaders are really good with dividing the word of God, right? But, you know, when they, when they talk to people, they may come across as, you know, a little proud or they may not be proud people, but just the two. So, so that way they are perceived differently, you know. So, so in, in that context, and then when, when, when a group of people come together, I mean, that's here, how are we defining, you know, leaders and, and also then what does the job of the leader become? So, and then does it have to be involved? This is, I think, Yeah, fine. Samu, see, I don't know if I can answer it fully, but what I'm thinking is, see, if you look at Romans 12, it talks about grace gifts that have been given to people, one of which is leadership. Okay. So, while we're talking about, you know, leaders in the church, I would say that, see, again, you can, you can look at people's lives and you could say that, you know, someone has all these qualities, why is this person not leading and the other person is leading? See, it really depends on God's call on someone's life and God has a way of orchestrating things also. So, we're being led by God's spirit. Oh, you could ask Paul the question, why didn't you pick Timothy, why didn't you pick somebody else? So, we, we need to be led by the spirit to identify these leaders. And therefore, you know, someone, one is, yeah, a lot of people can have these qualities, which we have discussed right now. But we're looking for the one who, you know, the, the spirit of God is leading us to, and showing us that, hey, the grace is upon this individual. And that person, you know, gets to lead that. Now, again, I do agree with you that though we have this entire list, you know, people are not perfect, even in the case of Paul, you know, we see how he has a sharp contention with Barnabas. Now, and, and they argue to, to an extent that they part ways, is that Godly? I don't, I don't know, if you ask my personal opinion, I didn't know it could have been settled this whole dispute about John Mark would have been settled in a more, you know, cordial and amicable way. But yeah, Paul was not perfect, right? The only perfect person is Jesus. There's nobody who's perfect. However, it's because of the grace of God on somebody's life that they should be assigned a role for leadership. Okay. And God, God gives that space for that individual to grow also. Now, if they make good use of it, well and good, you know, they can consistently keep growing and serve God. But we have also seen examples, even in the Bible, of those who have not taken it seriously, you know, Saul and David, that's a wonderful example, you know, Saul, God, it says God felt bad. He regretted that Saul was given an opportunity. So then it depends on the individuals, you know. So I just want to have those thoughts, Samuel. Thank you. Yeah, sure, sure. But yeah, I see that you have an interest here. And you can keep exploring it again. As far as I know, I mean, I haven't, I don't remember the current list of the Bible college subjects, but there's one course on leadership. Okay, if it's still part of the course, I'm not too sure, but an entire course on leadership. So that should help. Yeah. Okay, so are there any other questions or can we can we move forward? It's good. We're all asking practical questions. So that'll help us in our application. Alright, so that's a little bit about leadership. We can select an individual and, you know, entrust the ministry to them and hopefully they will, they will personally take responsibility and serve well. Is it possible that they don't serve well? Yes, it is possible that they don't serve well. Okay, so it depends on so many things. We just want to make sure that our part of picking someone to lead is correct. Okay, great. Yeah. Alright, so the next chapter here is about church administration. And I know that there is an entire course on this side. So I wouldn't want to spend too much time on it, but just give you the highlights here. We see in scripture that among the ministry functions, one of the tasks that is talked about or the functions that is talked about is helps and administration. 1 Corinthians 12-28. So, you know, God gives grace and anointing and even calling over people's lives for helps and administration. So it's like a supernatural ability that God has given, you know, to serve the local body. And to some extent, I think all of us have this and we can do things with some amount of planning, some amount of foreknowledge based on God's word, apply the principles of God's word, the right design when it comes to organizing our local church and the activities of the local church and the direction of the local church, so on and so forth. So, helps and administration. We can't completely say that, hey, I can't do it, there are only some people who are gifted in this area and so I will have a church, but there will be no order in it. We'll just follow the leading of the spirit. But the same Bible also talks about helps and administration, right? And if we look at God, you know, we've seen this earlier, the way he is managing the universe and the way he's put things in order. You know, thank God, there is a predictable time for the morning and the night. Imagine if there was no predictability, we would all be random and we couldn't have these classes, right? So God is a God of order, that's the point that I'm trying to make. And it comes from his nature to have some order and discipline. So when it comes to the church, you know, organizing things in a proper way, having a plan for the ministry, developing a plan for the ministry, all of this actually helps to be more effective. So how do we, what are some of the key things in developing a plan for a ministry? There needs to be a vision and a mission. So what is God showing us, that we can accomplish through this ministry? Is there a vision? Do you know how you're going to achieve this vision? That is called as mission. So do you have a mission? What are the goals? What are the long term goals over a decade? You know, what is it that you want to achieve through this ministry or the service that you are planning to do? Maybe a short term goal in the next one year, two years, what are you planning to achieve through the ministry? So are there goals? I know that all this sounds very corporate. Oh, why do we need all this in the church? But these are biblical principles. These principles are helping the world out there. Why shouldn't the church also apply? It's actually the other way around. It's not like the world is applying and why shouldn't the church, it's actually from God, you know, from the order and the nature of God. And God gives the grace also for things to be done in an organized planned manner. And so the church can multiply and thrive by the use of these principles. And hopefully it'll be the world that takes from the church and grows as well. So is there a vision? Talking about a local church, is there a vision? Is there a mission? Are there goals? Are there long term, short term goals? Is there a strategic plan for the ministry? What is the key thing? You know, sometimes people say, oh, we will, because now research shows, you know, the 1040 window, so we will minister in those areas. Or, you know, research shows that a lot of people have access to mobile phones. So when it comes to evangelism, maybe the mobile phone is a better tool. So our ministry is about, you know, serving people through the medium of the mobile phone. So strategic plan, what is your strategic plan? Yes, you're doing evangelism, but that could be a strategic, you know, like a cutting edge sort of way of doing things in that ministry. So what is it? What is it that God is asking of this ministry? Then again, you know, things like financial planning and budgeting, very, very important. Now, otherwise, you know, we might end up, yeah, okay, I'm just looking at the chat here and Christopher has shared next semester. Okay, next semester, PC course number 211 is Christian leadership. So yes, definitely, there's more to learn about Christian leadership. Coming back here. So I was saying that financial planning and budgeting. Again, this is helpful, like even Jesus said, right, like, how can you, if you don't count the cost and you want to go build a house and you run out of money in between, do we serve a God of miracles? We do. But you see, miracles were more of, if I may use the word, exceptions. At one point, people ran out of wine in the wedding. Jesus did that little, did he go and turn water into wine in every wedding? Actually, no. So the norm is to have a plan, the norm is to do our part in organizing ourselves well. And yes, there are times when God might lead us in a different way to show his glory, you know, and then a financial miracle happens, a financial breakthrough takes place. We are very much open to that. But otherwise, generally, no, we go by a plan and, you know, budgeting. So basically being good stewards of even the finances that God has given us. I'm sure pastor must have shared a lot more, you know, regarding these things. Okay, I'll just tell you something very, very basic here, things like, you know, saving when the income comes in, the church income comes in, not to spend everything. Otherwise, what can happen? Some of the younger ministries, they might want to have a huge hall right at the beginning and a fabulous sound system, but all these things cost money. And the church is still just growing, right? So if you take our money without a budgeting and a plan, we put it into, you know, these, the building cost, the sound system, the media presentations, you might find that this is not sustainable. However, if you are okay to spend slightly lesser on these arrangements and also, you know, see how you can save money. And in the long run, maybe after two years or three years, you have the capacity to hire a better hall. At that point, you set aside, okay, so if I was only spending, I'm just giving you a simple example, a small church, let's say 1000 rupees for my hall rent. But in three years, I will be capable of spending, you know, 7000 for my church fence. So let me get a better, better place then. So you see, with this kind of planning, more consistent, long-term, sustainable, effective ministry can take place. Similarly, you budget up, okay, we have missions, we have youth ministry, we have children's ministry, we have Sunday services, how much money can I allocate to each of these ministries? You know, if you go way beyond what you're capable of, let's say, really have a heart of four missions and you want to bless, you know, people and, you know, rural pastors, rural ministries. But if you go overboard, that little effect, you know, the running, your day-to-day running of the local judge body here. But if there's a plan and an idea, you think, okay, I have only so much, I have just example, I have only one lakh rupees, okay, fine, how can I do the most with that one lakh rupees, right? So when there's a plan, we have been good stewards, we have been wise with the use of our resources and for pastors and leaders, we are talking mainly about setting up a local judge. This is very, very important. Otherwise, you know, pastors struggle, pastors really struggle. They do not even have basic amount of money to spend on their own families. It's very, very sad and unfortunate. But just encouraging. We know it's never easy. Even with all the planning and the budgeting, it's still not easy. We definitely need God's help and, you know, His supernatural provision. But we just do our part to be good stewards of the money that God has given us. And, you know, as you grow, maybe the income will increase, right? And then at some point, we're able to do things a little more generously, a little more comfortably, as we have always wanted to do. Okay, so that's a little bit about having a plan for the ministry. Okay, so organize yourself to be an explosive force for God. Now, when we are passionate about ministry, it's possible that, you know, a lot of people just overlook aspects regarding organization and, you know, legal aspects and all because it can be overwhelming. And somebody who is only focused on ministry, they don't tell me about, you know, managing money and registering my church. I can't do all those things. You know, a lot of pastors feel that way, but it's understandable. You know what? Here, we just want to share some information that will help pastors and leaders organize themselves. And when we are organized, we can be, you know, we're here for the long term. So one is, form a legal organization. In every place, there will be some government rules and guidelines based on the jurisdiction, like where you are from, you may need to legally register yourself as a trust or even a religious body. So it's applicable, like it depends on the place from where you are. If we don't, if we are not a legal organization, you know, we could run into trouble and all of us would agree, right? We are of people who, even when they're doing ministry really well, but they have overlooked, you know, forming a legal organization. They can get into trouble with the law of the land and unable to defend themselves, right, when questioned. So pastors, we encourage them to find out, find out how to register yourself, be a legal organization. Later on, there's a checklist. I'll just quickly run you through that checklist as well. Then organizational structure, organizational structure is when, you know, you know, we've talked about this, right? You have the senior pastor, you have your pastoral team, you have your ministry team. So you have some, something, some order there. And then organizationally, maybe you want to have an administrative office. And then you have, you know, something else, you totally decide whatever works for your local church, you come up with that organizational structure and grow from there. And from time to time, you may want to modify it a little bit here and there. That's all right. Systems, people, processes, this, we all understand, you know, we have some order in the way things are done. And that leads to the growth of the ministry. We could also have job and role descriptions, because, you know, sometimes there's a, there's an overlap and that can cause confusion between people. So if there are clear cut, you know, role descriptions, for example, I'm just giving you random example. Let's say you have an outage ministry in church, okay? That ministry is called outage ministry. And part of that is, you know, evangelism, people go out to schools, colleges, even on the streets and all that, evangelize people. However, there's also a youth ministry in church, okay? And as part of the youth ministry, they might be ministering in schools and colleges also. Now, if we don't define, right, okay, what will the youth person in charge do? What will the outreach in charge do? Where does the overlap happen? And we just clarify, okay, when it comes to outreaches in youth, outreaches in schools and colleges, the outreach in charge will involve the youth in charge. You know, then it makes it smoother. But if you don't define who's going to do what, there'll be a lot of chaos and confusion, especially when the ministry grows, because there are way too many people, way too many responsibilities and, you know, tasks to be done. So, just like a corporate company, if the roles can be defined, even the job can be defined, it'll be a lot easier. Then establish your organizational guidelines and policies. You know, I don't need to talk too much about it, we all understand. Then planning and performance review, there's something we do every year. And I remember even when we were volunteers, Pastor had this, we used to send him a document, what is your plan for the year? So back then, you know, we used to practice this because it just helps one thing through, okay, 2022, okay, fine. You know, and you reflect back 2021, what did I do? I planned all these things, was I able to, why was I not able to, it just helps you, right? And then based on the learning, you have that projection for 2022, I'm going to do these things. So all these are just practical, you know, simple tools that will help us manage resources, people, time, skill, you know, talent better, then empower decision making, how to empower decision making, if there are guidelines, if everyone knows, hey, this is the thing, okay, when it comes to spending, if already in the guidelines we have, okay, if the ministry leaders are spending up to 2000 rupees, it's okay, but if you're spending 3000 rupees, then please check with the accounts office or please check, it's just like any other, you know, company. What happens is you're empowered, you already know, okay, I'm coming within the range of this, and this is the okay that I have, you know, to spend this amount of money, I'm well within what I should be doing. So I don't even have to ask anybody, I can do it, but if it goes beyond, then I have a, again, I have the instructions, okay, then you reach out to so and so, they will guide you, this, that. So it's basically you're not tying people down instead with information, by providing information, we are empowering them to make their own decisions. So empower decision making, they can follow the process, they can follow the guidelines and have the task done, and also adapt to change that could be like recently, you know, COVID happened, and services, even for, I think quite a few years we've been having live street, but when you watch the number of views there, it's hardly anything, okay, in the past few years, but once COVID happened, you know, now it's like thousands of views, but we have to adapt. Yeah, now we understand there is an online audience, so it's okay to kind of take this seriously and adapt to the changes that are happening. So in that way, you have a structure, you have things planned out, but also be open to change, then develop teams, there's a mention of a pastoral team where you would have people, a pastoralist, you know, that spiritual oversight, we talked about bishops, right, so it's not just about service, it's not just about, you know, activities, ministry, the more logistical aspects of it, but this is more of a spiritual aspects. So pastoral team will have people who may be completely pastors as in full time, or they might be bivocational, who we call as volunteer pastors, so they have a job, they have an income from that job, and then they also serve in the church, so different areas to cover, a pastoral team could be covering children, you have a pastor for the children's ministry, pastor for the new ministry, pastor for worship, pastor for, you know, what, teaching somebody who's only engaging in teaching, pastor for marriage, you know, couples, so it depends, it completely depends, you identify your pastoral team, volunteer teams, volunteer teams would be those who have a job and don't have a vocation, and yet they are serving in church either in the Sunday services or they can be part of some other ministries like missions, missions, you know, it'll happen throughout the year, but they're serving in missions or outreaches, they're serving in the outreaches or Sunday services, so Sunday services, you have your media team, transport team, parking, parking help, sound and setup, you know, stage, offering, offering collection, greeters, right, then first time visitors, people who follow first time visitor, so things like that, it totally depends, you set up your volunteer teams and tell them what to do, give them the guidelines here, actually you can look up our website, all this has already been published, right, on the website, you just explore the website a little bit, even the guidelines for some of these ministries are out there, so you can you can have a look at how the guidelines and policies have been formulated, life groups, so you know, some volunteer leaders there and what are the guidelines for life groups, life group leaders, it just helps, it helps people to make decisions once you provide guidelines, and then of course comes church staff, church staff are fewer, these would be the paid people, you know the church pays from their financial resources to have these people work, so church staff are lesser, if you compare like here at ABC, we have less church staff, but we do need church staff because we need some people to focus on the ministry work, so see things like Sunday services, organizing Sunday services and you know, the things that are required for Sunday services, you need an administrative office, right, that is able to look at the costs, the purchases and all, otherwise what will happen, because we have five locations, we have five locations, so it's not easy, otherwise if you just leave everything on volunteers, it can work, but it can be quite tiring and difficult to, you know, spare things forward, so if you have an administrative office, it's helpful, then somebody to coordinate events, again it depends on your church, so you may have somebody in charge of church records, they maintain, you know, all your certificates, member certificates, baptism certificates, marriage certificate and all the membership classes, so come up with your decision of what are the areas where you need somebody who's committed, the church is willing to pay this person to completely engage in these kind of tasks, okay, and that also helps things move smoothly, and as a pastor and a leader, you know, you continue to lead the congregation with vision, wisdom, communication, we have discussed all these things earlier, so I won't spend too much time on that, and since it's going to be really, really busy for any senior pastor or a leadership team, one of the things that we have to ask us often is, are we just keeping busy or are we being fruitful, so if we define the goals of our ministry and the outcome that we would like to see, it's a lot easier, you know, if we could check and see, hey, I'm doing all these outweaches, how many people are actually being saved, or, you know, how many people are actually hearing the gospel, so again, it's not all about numbers, you know, sometimes you can't measure with numbers, you have to really trust the Lord for an outcome over a longer period of time, but still, you get what I'm saying, right, fruitfulness, fruitfulness is more important than business, now I could give you a report of my ministry and say I did five outweaches, I did 20 sermons, I did 30 whatever, you know, live groups, how does it matter, is it really growing, maturing the people, building leaders, impacting lives, so those are the harder questions about fruitfulness, okay, that one needs to ask, so always be asking those questions and don't get stuck in a system, no activity-based event-based system, okay, now coming to finances, again, maintaining planning, budgeting, maintaining the accounts is very important and, you know, government over here requires you to file, right, file your returns, it requires you to do the auditing, so it's good to connect to a chartered accountant and have your finances, you know, all the accounting done properly, clearly and kept ready, our finances, Pastor must have shared, it's also on the website, those reports have been published from several years, so, yeah, if we are careful, then we will be able to maintain all this well and even the, whether it is the church folk or it is the government, there'll be no loopholes, there'll be no confusion, but we can maintain accountability and transparency in the matters of money and manage money really well so that there's no debt and sometimes what happens, pastors may think, I'll do this huge event, it's a really important event, so I'll borrow money, I'll do it, how are you going to pay back once the event is over, so, you know, some men of God, women of God, we get stuck in borrowing for the sake of the ministry, you know, all that can happen, so we're just helping us think, okay, instead, if we try to manage our resources in such a way that we don't, you know, get into an unmanageable debt, that would be better, isn't it, so you're free, you're not under stress every day, imagine you have to go preach, you have to counsel people, you have to teach God's word and then on your mind you're thinking, how am I going to pay, you know, how am I going to pay this amount of money, so not to get into these situations, right, and just be wise with the management of finances and yeah, as God's Spirit leads, also there will be times when he asks us to step out in faith, okay, so there might be things you do, believing God for him to sustain, so manage these, manage the finances, maintain all the records, so basically income, here we have a process after Sunday, the money comes into the office and then we have somebody in charge who goes, puts it into the bank, right, so first of all have a bank account for the church, these are practical things, but these are things that help, otherwise if you don't account well, we don't know how much is coming in, we don't know how much is going out, we're not, you know, of course religious trust and all, you don't, there's no income tax over here in our country, but then you have to get some 12-way certification, so see what the government rules are in your given place in your country, in your region and follow them, follow them, maintain good accounts as well, so income, even expense, there is the money going, maintaining the bills and all of that, so one needs to do that and legal obligations, you know, of a religious trust, it has been listed out here, we encourage all pastors to do this, first is register your trust, okay, have a bank account for the ministry, don't have a personal bank account and church bank account, it'll create a lot of confusion, personal bank account best to have separate, because you're doing your personal transactions over there, right, and you file your returns as an individual, that's different, I'm talking about the Indian system, then you have the church bank account, right, so that it's clear, okay, this is the income, this is the expense, there's no confusion, any money that comes into the church trust comes into the trust account, so keep these things separate, that is something of wisdom that we can tell pastors, don't ever mix these two, okay, we've run out of time and I really don't want to rush anything, because all this is very important, so let's close as of now, looks like we will definitely need to meet again next Friday, yeah, so we should be able to wrap up things then, so can we pray class, anyone, could you please pray and close today's session? Pastor Kanip? Yes, yes, please, please, go ahead, Shikuma. Thank you, most precious evening Father, we thank you and praise you Father God for this wonderful day, Father we bless your holy name, we thank you for your grace and the strength and the wisdom what you release through your servant or God, we pray that Father God, let every word what we receive to Father, let it be useful for Lord Master our spiritual growth and let we able to build the kingdom of Father God, let these tools, let these principles of God, let we apply in our life for Father God, let we not take it lightly but Lord Master, let we use this opportunity, let we use this every word of wisdom and guidance what you've given to us Father God for our own edification, our own planning towards our future, our ministry or Lord Master, let it Lord Master, let these tools of Father God, we use these tools of Father God to build the kingdom, build the local church, build the ministry, build the Lord Master to make the church more stronger and stronger in our country and Father God in other nation, Father we thank you and praise you Father God for strengthening your servant or God Master, thank you for this wonderful opportunity, thank you for this word of this word filled with wisdom and knowledge of God Master, thank you for once again enlightening us so Father, thank you for removing that darkness from us so Father God, thank you Father God, let this light continuously shine and let it become more brighter and brighter in our spirit so that we can have a Lord Master a clear vision to move further of Father God to see your church becoming more stronger and your dreams of Father God for the body of Christ let it be fulfilled, we thank you Father God for this wonderful opportunity, in Jesus name we pray, amen. Amen, amen, thank you, thank you everyone and take care bye, I know you probably have another class, we can discuss questions, practical things we can discuss in the next class so take care and bye for now, thank you Master.