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Ableton on Air is part of the following organizations, the National Academy of Television, Arts and Sciences, Boston, New England Chapter, and the Society of Professional Journalists. Welcome to this edition of Ableton on Air, the one and only program that focuses on the needs, concerns, and achievements of the Deaf and the Evil. I've always been your host, Lauren Seiler. Arlene is not here today due to recuperating in the hospital, but we wish her well. We would like to welcome our guest all the way from Israel, Dr. Alan Wecker from Haifa University, Israel, who is a PhD in computer information systems. His work extends from patents at IBM long time ago in the early 80s to working at Haifa University. Now we want to thank Mr. Wecker for joining us today on Ableton on Air. Thank you for joining us on Ableton on Air. What is computer information systems? Okay, so computer information systems are large-scale systems to handle needs of organizations and to help people and organizations manage large amounts of information. Okay, now today we're talking about museum exhibits and special needs and inclusiveness, making them inclusive. What are some of the ways that can make exhibits inclusive for people with disabilities? Okay, there are many factors that can go into it and it depends what type of disabilities. A lot of these applications today are just web applications, so everything you can do for a web, large print, screen readers, all sorts of things like that. What's exactly a screen reader? Okay, so people is that you show a screen and then it could read that screen to the disabled person or the person in need that wants to hear what's there and see it because it's hard for him to read the small print or read the print. You want to start asking me some questions? Yeah, I think also because I think it helps us when we know what people use our systems, what are their requirements and their needs. So, where would you like to go? In terms of museums, well, obviously in life globally, sometimes it's hard to make things. It's really accessible and it's supposed to because it's a law in different ways. But I'm saying without any barriers. Without any barriers. Where would you, what are the places you'd really like to visit? Well, for example, recently I visited the Echo Science Center and the Echo Science Center is in Vermont. So that museum, you touch everything and it's inclusive. I would love to go to, for example, the Muhammad Ali Museum in Kentucky. Any museum that has videos or media attached to it, people will flock to because it's more accessible to the touch. So if you're just looking at a screen and doing nothing, then it's not that accessible. But if it's more, if you can have accessibility by touching an exhibit, then you're good to go. Then as they say, you get more bang for your buck when you pay to get into a museum. So it's more inclusive for people who need it. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. What do you enjoy most about visiting a museum? Well, the history behind, if it's a museum that has history behind it, like the Museum of Natural History or a museum about a president. Most of those museums are inclusive, again, because they have, they call it tactile. Tactile. Tactile, sorry. Tactile exhibits that way you can touch. So if you're blind and visually impaired, it helps. And it also helps if a map of a museum is also accessible for us or anybody. Some people don't have a challenge, but yet they have a challenge getting or going to a museum because they might not understand the language. Or it's just not accessible enough to get in also because some of these buildings. All right. That leads into my next question. It's like maybe you could talk about in general, but from your personal experience, what is the biggest barriers to a visitor? Well, if, for example, my wife sometimes uses a chair. Yeah. If a building has too many steps and not a ramp, then it's hard to get in. But case in point, the grandfather clause, if a building is more than 100 years old, you have to get city and sometimes state permission to get it more accessible. It shouldn't have to be because it's a law, but unfortunately, sometimes there's bureaucracy behind it. So the less bureaucracy we have getting into a building, then you can, you know, help people by making it more accessible that way. So I'm going to ask you this question. Yeah. All right. What type of? Okay. Well, in terms of cost, would it cost more to make an exhibit accessible or is it more of have to making it accessible on your end? You know, depends what we're talking about. If we're talking about, you know, the application itself that's being used. Computer applications. Right. You know, the screen and the application. So today there's a lot of, you know, accessible standards. And if you build according to the accessible standards, you know, you should be, you know, it shouldn't be much of an extra course because you build it correctly. The screen readers work. You know, you put the alternate text on the pictures so it's not a lot of extra work. And the only extra work is the. Or putting icons in place or something like that. You know, or putting the text if there's an icon, you know, to read. I mean, sometimes you also have to do it right to build, you know, for, I guess this is also an accessibility issue in a sense is that, you know, different people speak different languages. So, you know, if it's not in your language, then it's not accessible to you. So you want to build it so that all the language related material is in a separate file that could be easily, you know, translated for special. For example, I can put this example there. Yad Vashem, which I've been, we've been to it, is a Holocaust Museum, but you have media there. You have symbols such as the amount of shoes that represent people. So the more engaging, whatever part of history it may be, the more engaging it is, the more people will be engaged to go. And then also in terms of cost factor. Of course, that was my first part. So the software is relatively inexpensive to make more accessible. It's a manner of using the right design principles, but I have a caveat on that also. But probably the more thing that's very costly is probably physical changes to a building site, especially if it's a historical building and you have to use special methods in order to make it more accessible. No, but in terms of I was talking about cost factor, in terms of people with disabilities, many people with challenges. I think in general, I don't think no museum in the world charges more because you're disabled then for a regular visit. No, there are, for example, it's closed now, but the 9-11 memorial charges $50 to get in. Now, why? No, but was that for a disabled person, but they charge $50 for everyone? Everybody. Okay, that's what I'm saying. Not everybody has a disabled rate to get into. Right, but what you're saying is that there's a special rate that some museums are very expensive. That's a reason for that because they have to keep it up. Yeah, sometimes there can be lots of expenses in running a museum and not everything comes from subscribers and members. Most museums try to keep the entrance rates low because they want more visitors, and they try things like memberships and things like that. But that's a less of a technical issue out of my field of expertise. Okay, now I know I'm jumping around here, but in terms of careers, since you have your PhD, if someone was to go into computers, whether they're disabled or learning about people with disabilities on computers, what is some advice that you could give somebody who wants to go into the career field? Actually, because of this technology, it has been an accessible field. I remember as a young scientist at IBM, there was a guy by the name of Bob White, and he was blind and he was just very inspirational in how that team was able to work and he was considered one of the top researchers in his field, and he was blind. It's a matter of making sure you have the technology that makes the information accessible to you. He had special equipment, a Braille reader and a Braille typewriter and things like that so that he could work and he was considered one of the best. Okay, more questions, go ahead. More questions. We were talking about museums, so maybe I'll get to the heart of the question. I was talking earlier about expenses, so it doesn't cost much to develop an application that's accessible. But here's the question, certain disabilities are silent or not there. But I'm thinking more of that, so you can do hearing and readers and things like that. But I think some of the disabilities, say autism, special needs of autism, that means that you can't use the same application that you designed for everyone. That's something, okay. You have to do a special application. So say autistic children, you want to design for them. I have colleagues in the University of Torino who work on this issue applications. So they did a farm that is quiet. They need things that are very quiet. They need things that maybe aren't aimed so much for the autistic child, but it's aimed for the caretaker of that child to help him through it. It's quiet, no large noises, no flashing lights. Well flashing lights also for epilepsy, because now screens example, the less pixels or the more technologically advanced screen is and the less flashing you attribute from it, the more the exhibit can be accessible. Because example, a 3D movie, a person with autism might not be able to go in a 3D movie or person with epilepsy because of flashing stuff. You know, an amusement park ride, a movie, but also a person with autism has certain attributes that can have certain attributes. You need something to calm them down more, and if you have an exhibit that is calming, example, plenty of libraries and exhibits have walking bridges with music. When you walk, the crystals would sing or shake or something along those lines, and it's a calming effect. So maybe an exhibit can have running water, a waterfall of some sort to calm them down so they'll be able to go to the exhibit. So I'll ask another question. What do you think about the idea of remote visiting? The idea is that someone goes to a museum while the challenged person remains at home and sees things through cameras that are attached to... Well, during the pandemic, I had to do a school project, and that school project was visiting the Henry Ford Museum, because no one can go there, and they had a lecture on the etsel and the cars and different things. So I sat through a lecture, but they showed pictures. It was engaging. You got to ask questions. You got to... If you pushed a button on your computer, you could hear the roar of the engine, those things. So the more engaging it can be. Although it's best for a person to go out to the museum and not be a shut-in. There are certain cases where people have to be shut-ins, but it's not recommended. Because the more engaging you are to go out to the community, the better off it is for the person and the group. Okay, so that brings me to the... What if that wasn't too... No, that's fine. That was good. That was my element. You followed into what that question was. It really is... I guess in general, people want to be at the place and see the original, the authentic things and not just see things from the road. Example, if I'm looking at a lot of colors, and if I'm looking up close at Frida Kahlo's paintings, I don't want to see that at home. I want to see that in an art gallery. You know? Yeah. Okay, so this leads me to a problem, though, that sometimes these museums aren't in a historical building, and you can't be really, you know, changing... Grandfather, grandfather. Sometimes you can be in a crowd of close... No, that's just exemptive, but really there are real problems with it. There was an interesting thing in the Tower of David recently. They built, you know, an external elevator, so they didn't have to touch the building. And you went into an elevator that was external to the building, a modern piece, and that took you up, you know... Up the elevator? Yeah, up the floors, and then there was a plank to walk inside, so they didn't have to, you know, change anything within the historical structure. They just did additional structures. And it was another museum that's also similar, that they built on an extra, you know, modern piece architectural piece on the old thing. So it looks interesting, you know, a little bit out of place, because you have this something very modern. But what do you think about this dilemma that... Well, it's a big dilemma, because there's something in America and also across the world. Again, grandfather clause in a contract for a building means if a building is... I'll give you a prime example. There's an art gallery two blocks from here, okay? It took the art gallery years, 12, 13 years. The board had to approve it, the state had to approve it, so on and so forth to get an elevator that's accessible for people with disabilities. 12 years in the making, that shouldn't be. Either lack of funding or lack of know-how, or I don't want to say ignorant of people or ignorance, but the more people know about our challenges being challenged, example. I can walk up steps but using a banister. I can't walk the Philadelphia Art Museum with a rocky statue, I can't do that by myself. I need to use a banister to do that, unless somebody else is with me. So these are challenges that people do, but if a building can get past the grandfather clause and put a ramp, then it's a good thing. Okay, so I'm curious, so for the way you're enthusiastic, you think everything, the problem can be solved by technology or money, or some problems just too big and unassolvable? No, it's not unsolvable. It's called grassroots advocacy, example. During the Obama administration, it took one family who had a child named Rosa, Rosa's law was created. So they went from office to office to office, knocking on doors with that little girl's help to get the word retarded, taking out of medical jargon. So if grassroots advocacy still exists to get buildings accessible by all means, we'll hold picket signs if we have to to get something accessible. Grassroots advocacy needs to still be there even though we have all this technology in the world. If you don't open your mouth, you don't get anything done. Okay, so that's interesting. So we'll go on another negative and then we'll go to more things positive. What are some of the biggest frustrations that you mentioned before money, the costs of getting into the middle, and you mentioned also physical accessibility. Physical barriers, but with more education. Right now, I'm not talking about the solutions, but let's talk a little bit about what do you see are the problems that need to be addressed. And especially maybe things that can be addressed, not only physical, but to say things with applications and things like that. Talking about technology, if more people were to be educated on computer applications, because for example, Apple was started in somebody's garage if I'm not mistaken. So one little idea, because you've done patents, one little idea can lead to something big. Thomas Edison failed at so many things, but look at what he's done. There's a saying, fail to plan, plan to fail. The more you discuss something in a think tank and this goes back to technology. Boardrooms, think tanks, the more you discuss something, the more things can get done. And if it's not done, if nobody knows about it, then you can't get it done. Did I go on? We're looking at sort of things from a technology point of view. What do you think the future of computer technology will be? Because it extends, computer automation goes back to Orning-Hartow's example of pushing a button and a sandwich comes out of a machine. That was the beginning of things. And even probably before then. So I think computers, the two ways that computers are getting smarter are able to handle more complex tasks. You have things like chat GBT and AI. What is AI again? AI is artificial intelligence. So a robot. Well, not so much a robot. A robot is more physical. Maybe that's the other half. But it's sort of like programs that neural networks that learn and learn from large amounts of information and can answer questions without it being programmed exactly in advance. In other words, in essence, the computer thinks. Okay, so this brings me to this kind of question. If the computer thinks, example, I'm going to say this, freedom of speech, during power outages and things, because Vermont, we experience if something's too overloaded, then either it's going to shut down or not work properly. So a computer is only as good with the technology it has. Example. How many times does a computer program have to be updated in order to work properly? It depends. At the early stages you update a lot because you do pilots, you learn things about things. What's a pilot? A pilot is a experiment, a small experiment. You run the program, say it's a museum application, so you don't offer it up to the whole general public, but you take two or three people back and things like that. I think an important thing here is part of the people that you do a pilot with is to do it with the least one or two special needs persons so you see how they react to the application because it might not be the same. So that's important. So I was saying, one thing is the application. The other thing in the future computers will be invisible computing or invisible computing. We won't have a device but it'll be built in everywhere. Example, Apple next year I was giving a burn of this I know it's proprietary but Apple next year will have goggles for television. Right, so in the future we may not even need goggles it'll be built into the glasses Well, they have the OrCam now. Right, so things like OrCam but OrCam is sort of telling you with the video it's not projecting the screen. So here it would maybe project the screen onto reality augmented reality. OrCam is a different. You can have a book and you read and it reads back to you like in a screen reader type of application. But you might have other applications in the future computing where it could read back to you or you could be looking at an oven and it would say you're looking at an oven. It would tell you what you could recognize or you could push a button but it won't go oven turn on I don't think No, but it might be that you could then do and say turn on oven like today you have Alexa you have verbal commands Can you turn on an oven with Alexa? Yeah, because they have power they have power switches that turn on the power on and eventually you might have devices we're talking about the future the future is unbelievable what could happen in the future What made me... The more accessible example our apartment they're going to be installing an ADA switch for a person that is low you know you roll up to the wheelchair you push the button the oven turns on or something like that But getting back this brings me back to a question that we're talking about the future and the question is is it always all always all technology I think or is it important sometimes especially these people have you know need and all of a sudden you need help from a human there's always you know the self bringing to this that it's not museum but it can be part of it self checkouts in supermarkets example if the computer goes down you still need someone to help either put money into the machine or help you example I'm visually impaired there's a button on a lot of those self checkouts you can make it larger so you can see it but there's always someone that has to be there you can't get rid of humans completely you can't get rid of a human race people need jobs so unless someone is going to sit at the computer for the exhibit for example directing booth has lots of buttons and things but you still have to operate the computer from somewhere you can't okay I know that COVID shut down a lot and people are working from home but you can't just push a button from your house okay pay me for eight hours you got to do something else other than just pushing buttons you have to be there to interact with people this is why you get into a small other topic older people when they retire they volunteer in hospitals to interact with people there's always going to be interaction you can't stop that even if you have the best robots in the world but do you think is it even more so for special needs than say for a regular person you need more interaction special education schools were imperil during the pandemic because example kindergarten children need interaction first grade kids you can't sit them at a computer you can watch a cartoon like Peppa Pig for half an hour but you also have to interact them they're going to get bored after a while so the more interaction you have the better so this has been very interesting one more question what sort of things are you interested would you want to see you know I guess it's true for everybody what would you want to see from a special needs application when you go to a museum historical stuff historical stuff more keypads needs more interaction you push them a button we were able to talk now I'm not talking about how to do it but now what sort of things would you want to hear more about exhibits does special needs interest you as a museum visitor if there's a special needs angle to a certain picture would you want to hear about that again exactly the Roosevelt Museum in New York the former president who had polio and he did a lot of things despite his challenge so that's an interesting angle of things in how America was able to come out from the war and he didn't let his challenge get to him so yeah maybe the Helen Keller Museum or Lewis Brail there are certain museums that are connected what I'm saying is that all of a sudden in the middle of some museum the painter when he did this painting he was done by holding it he was disabled so he did it with his feet the movie the piano you have all sorts of interesting facts at the El Cugat so really special needs so that would be more of interest to you but the question is go ahead we can go over quickly so what sort of things interest you in museums so you talked about history we talked about now if there was special needs involved in making the picture the more subject matter about people with special needs with interest but the more interactive you have a museum I would like to work with you to interact with the exhibit and things like that things that you would be able to ask questions about a painting and would answer you that would be sort of stuff that would be interesting ok well we'd like to thank you for joining me on this edition of Abledon On Air for more for more information on Abledon On Air or anything else you've seen today you can contact our website at oracamedia.net that's O-R-C-A-M-E-D-I-A .net I'm Lawrence Seiler unfortunately Arlene is not here we wish her a speedy recovery see you next time on the next exciting edition and thank you Dr. Wacker for joining us all the way from Israel see you next time on the next exciting edition of Abledon On Air I'm Lawrence Seiler, see you next time major sponsors for Abledon On Air include Washington County Metal Health where hope and support come together media sponsors for Abledon On Air include Park Chester Times Muslim Community Report www this is the Bronx.info Associated Press Media Editors New York Parrot Online Newspaper U.S. Press Corps Public and International Anchor FM and Spotify Partners for Abledon On Air include Yachad of New York and New England where everyone belongs the Orthodox Union the Division for the Blind and Visually Impaired of Vermont the Vermont Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired Center Vermont Habitat for Humanity Montefiore Medical Center of the Bronx Rose of Kennedy Center of Bronx, New York Albert Einstein College of Medicine of the Bronx Abledon On Air has been seen in the following publications Park Chester Times www this is the Bronx.com New York Parrot Online Newspaper Muslim Community Report U.H.com and the Montpelier Bridge Abledon On Air is part of the following organizations the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences Boston, New England Chapter and the Society of Professional Journalists