 in this very city. Just a few days before I explained to you that he was a very successful corporate CEO of a very large conglomerate with very satisfied employees and all he wanted is ambition was to have a global footprint. But in those days ambition was considered greed. And so the dark lord burnt and people celebrated the triumph of light over darkness. But this is not about the two men and their egos. It's about the woman who stood in the center of this epic struggle, a story that has been told thousands of times through the centuries. Our heroine is Sita. But in a few days India will celebrate its most loudest and raucous festival which is Diwali, a festival of new beginnings. But for me as a Tamil girl in South India, my memories of Diwali were being woken up by my mother at four a.m. in the morning and led sleepy-eyed to the bathroom in which my mother would have already made ready a paste of turmeric, warm coconut oil and sandalwood paste. And there lovingly she would pour it on my hair and massage my limbs. All the while singing this very traditional song that is echoed in many homes in South India on this day. And the song goes, Sita Kalyayana Vaheebo. In that song, the perfect harmony of man and woman, Ram and Sita. And the wishes of a mother to her young daughter. May you grow up to be that ideal wife like Sita. May you find a perfect husband like Ram. For those of you who know the story, it was a great love story. But the two were hardly together. And Sita, brave, beautiful, had a very unhappy life full of adventures and misadventures. So, mothers don't think about that because what they are really wishing on their daughters could be this, you will be kidnapped and abducted, you will be lonely and afraid, you will be betrayed and blamed, you will give birth all alone. Because that's what happened in the story. Sita is such an enigma. She's worshipped, adored, emulated, imitated, admired, but when it comes to naming our daughters, we seek other names, Janaki, daughter of Janaka, Maitali, princess of Mithila. We even name men, Janaki, Raman, Sita, Raman. We will choose a name, Bhoomija, daughter of the earth, Vaidehi, we'll even choose Sia. But why is it that we never name or hesitate to name our daughters Sita? Of the conch, a sound that rings through this land from the moment of birth, till that moment when the last breath leaves the body. The sound of the conch that heralds a wedding, a festival, sunset, celebration, life and death. The sound of the conch that is held in the left hand of a Hindu god. The sound of a conch that also signals war. Listen to the cry of a mother welcoming her newborn into the earth and listen to the wail of another mother in the desert as she mourns over the lifeless body of her son. A cry to the sound of a conch, one a beginning and the other the end. Ladies and gentlemen, please stay seated for the panel to follow. All right, here with me today to talk about something that should be a lot more on our mind than it is is what sort of ecosystem, what sort of enabling environment that India provide to the creative person. Whether it's from the performing arts, whether it's from the world of art itself, whether it's from the creative industry like advertising and media. Where does a creative person take her or his talent in India? If that's what draws you, does the environment encourage you and does it encourage you enough? You just saw Anita Ratnam performing on stage, well-known dancer and choreographer. Neha Kirpal started and ran India's first international art fair. Tarun Rai is of course the CEO of J. Walter Thompson, JWT, the premier advertising agency in this country. So these are three very, very diverse fields. And I'll start with you, Anita. When you think of India, the cliche that you think of is often the performing arts. That's how the world looks at India. And the notion of Indian nationalism. The notion of Indian nationalism is defined around the performing arts, the diversity, the sort of the sheer color and magnificence of it. But how easy or difficult is it to be an artist in India? To be a performing artist, music, dance, or theater, we'll talk about live arts, is it's like Sisyphus carrying a stone up the hill, you know? So you mean it's an existential crisis? Existential crisis. The worldview of Albert Camus. Yeah. Well the thing is that a lot of our wonderfully great artists who are now of course world famous have reached that with not just talent and determination, but despite support. So even today as we speak, we could have a dancer on the tourism poster of India, but the reality will be that she's clearing the furniture from her living room and practicing there. Because we don't have an ecosystem that even has professional rehearsal spaces available. For myself, I've been in the arts 52 years since I did my Arangetram, which is my dance debut. And I remember very clearly my grandfather coming up to me backstage and telling my mother, Anita should stop learning dance immediately, nobody will marry her. So because I'm a product of the 1950s, I still remember those times and the resistance my mother faced to give me the opportunity. I think India is a very exciting place and a great challenge because for me, I would like to share my art here. But with the recent tax structures, I'm now not an Indian dancer. I'm not made in India. My dance is now contemporary, which means there's a 28% GST tax on tickets for my show, which will happen next month at Bombay's NCPA. So I joined the elite ranks of Asta Debu and Daksha Seth and performers who may be using the violin or may be using the piano. So this is troubling, very troubling. What did you mean just now when you said you're not an Indian dancer anymore? Well, because the word contemporary, when they have anything to do with modern or contemporary in the billing of the festival, which is what NCPA is doing, then they fall under the non-Indian category of taxation for tickets. You're joking, right? No, I'm not joking. It's an absolute fact. How frustrating is that for you? Well, first, it's a bit of a jolt for me, but I'm thinking of the organizers. I'm thinking of NCPA that wants to do things professionally and now they have to work backwards in lowering the basic ticket price so that the 28% tax will not deter. And you know, the tickets are only 300 rupees and 500 rupees. They don't even go up to a thousand rupees. But that amount between 12% for the classical arts and the 28% for the so-called contemporary modern arts, that's a huge, huge bracket that you jump to. So, Neha, one would imagine that there would be huge incentivization, huge patronage, private public patronage for the arts. But actually, whether you're talking tax regimes or Anita saying that there aren't enough spaces, professional spaces for people to even rehearse, that most basically everybody's rolling up the carpet or the Dari in their drawing rooms and their dance classes are happening there, which is how we all grew up doing dance classes, by the way. But you would imagine that if you're a professional dancer, there were other spaces for you to go to. How do you apply that to the world of art, which is what you represent? How, what kind of incentivization exists in that space, especially since so many rich people now treat art as a kind of monetary investment? Whether or not they're interested in it, it's like a business for them. Yeah, so it's, I mean, a lot of the development work that's happened in the last decade or so, like even with the art fair, is all private sector backed, right? So from a government standpoint, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of policy, there is very little. It's almost in spite of what is there, the private sector and the creative industries are pushing forward. But I think the opportunity really is now, because the world is looking at India. We've got 5,000 years of art history behind us and a lot of money that is being made in Indian enterprise globally, right? So it's really a time to look at it as also a solid opportunity to invest in and build in for creative tourism, for brand India, and look at all the sort of business ventures that can be brought into the creative industries. At the end of the day, without patronage and without the right incentive for patronage, we're not going to be able to break out of this vicious cycle. What is the toughest thing you find for a young artist? I think it's the lack of representation and exposure, right? So it starts with the fact that, you know, art is for the rich, perhaps, or it's for the very poor. You know, it isn't considered mainstream enough, right? It isn't considered part of what we should learn in school and college as much, and so therefore, it's not part of our growing up experience. And so the lack of exposure, the lack of awareness, the lack of, you know, as you look around in various forums where you're having a conversation around art, it's on the side, right? But looking at the creative industries from a mainstream business, mainstream policy, corporate perspective just does not exist. And it is that gap that is creating the problem. So I would say exposure, access, when we started the art fair we had, we didn't even know whether anyone would come, right? And now we're the fifth most attended fair in the world. We have 100,000 people coming in those four days. So people are interested, and there is therefore the possibility to market yourself and come and sponsor and be a brand that gets associated. All of this exists. So there is a world beyond Bollywood, right, as we were talking. And it's, yeah. I mean, is there a world beyond Bollywood? Well, certainly. I actually think Bollywood seems to have vampire just about everything, including our culture. But I think there is something to learn from Bollywood. I think they have been excellent in marketing themselves. They have, I think in the last decade or two, certainly become even very international. The odd cases of our Indian stars getting two bit roles in Hollywood movies are gone. Now they are mainstream television series protagonists. So I think there is something to learn from Bollywood. Unfortunately, and I think it is rather unfortunate that our preoccupation with Bollywood has become so intense that they are now everywhere. They are on the big screen. They're on the small screen. They are endorsing just about every brand. They are working their hands. They own the cricket teams. They own the Kabaddi teams. Yeah, man. So to me, it's amazing that, you know, growing up, we had supermodels, some great supermodels, who were nothing to do with Bollywood. Now they've all disappeared. If you make it in modeling, you only make it really big if you get into Bollywood. And so I'm saying while there is something to learn from Bollywood, I think it's unfortunate that they have kind of almost taken over whatever culture means to India. And I think, and what Neha was talking about earlier, I think it's unfortunate also that in a city like Mumbai, we have got NCPA for the performing arts. I think that's fantastic, but it's in one age of Mumbai, not very accessible to people from the suburbs. And on the other hand, for the rest of the arts, you have got NGMA, which is the only public institution. And I say, where is artate? Where is artate modern? Where is our MoMA? Where is our Guggenheim? You go to Amsterdam. It is stuffed with museum. Where is our destination museum? Between Mumbai and Delhi, we have got these NGMAs. Nobody goes there. And it's amazing that we are in a situation like this. And you ran an ad agency, and you were telling me earlier that a lot of young people you spoke to actually wouldn't want to work with JWT if they could actually follow their first love, which is to be in the arts. Sure, I'm saying it's interesting that when I was, and I knew that I have to speak to this forum, I said, well, you know, we recruit a lot of people from the Jada School of Art, and Jada School of Art has got some amazing alumni. I think the entire progressive, the Bombay Progressive Club is from there, the Gaya Tonde, the Suzaz, MF Hussain, they're all from there. And you actually, I called some of these people who are working with us in our creative department, and I said, what would you rather do? He said, you know what? If you could make a living out of our art, we'd rather be doing that. But unfortunately, they have no exposure. There's one place which is cheap and which is reasonably on the mainstream map, which is called the Jahangir Art Gallery. To get a show there, they wait less than 10 years. And these poor guys, they said, you know, where else can we get our art exposed to people? So it is, I think, a serious problem, and I think the public institutions have a role to play here. So before we come to the role of what government can do, what business can do, what money can do, basically, Anita, is it possible to earn a living being in the arts? If I want to be a performing artist in India, no. I have to leave India to perform, to earn money, to come back to pay bills. The way I can earn money is if I start a school and have 100 students, then that is the business model for the arts. Because as a teacher, there is a very healthy pipeline of money and inflow. But what have I trained for? What do I want to share, what I create? And I don't have a forum that would actually compensate me. There are people who would come directly to me and say, Madam, we'll do it for free, but they would not go to Rahul Bajaj and ask for a car for free or a two-wheeler for free, because that is his turnover. This is my turnover in business terms. Performance is my day's turnover. So why would I give it away for free? So there is constantly a pressure to devalue what we do in dance music and theater. It's like, it's not serious. It's not something you can hold and own and touch. See, it's an intangible. So no, to answer your question, if I wanted to only be in India and perform and travel, there are many prestigious venues in Delhi that dancers would love to be in. But they say, come on your own, stay on your own, and we'll give you the hall at six p.m. to get ready to start at seven p.m., which means we don't have time to set up. So they won't do the ticket, they won't pay you, they won't... No, they'll program you, that's it. Now you do all the other work, which means that there is a business for, like Book My Show, there's a business for artistic directors, agents, people who actually can produce an artist who's traveling city to city. There is money to be made. There is... So is the problem, and I want to ask this to all three of you, I'll start with you, is the problem that there is too little or too much government in the art space? There is no government in the performing arts space. There is the ministry of culture, what does it do? Well, I was on all the ministries, and I know that everything is centralized around Delhi, which is a problem for such a large country. And I know that grant applications from my home state of Tamil Nadu are almost minuscule because artists are so tired of following up the file because it never gets, doesn't get the adequate response. So yes, there is certainly a budget that is considered large, but then we have political situations where we say we have to give a budget for the Northeast, for instance, to give to the art of the Northeast because it's important to support that. But my larger question is that there is a government for all of you in Delhi, but for all of us who are far away from Delhi, we are on our own, completely on our own. So that's interesting. I never quite thought of geographical sort of dislocation in terms of looking at the culture argument. Yeah, but it's also between ministries. So as we're talking about the arts being marginalized, such is also the case in government, right? So the ministry of culture, for whatever good it may even intend to do, doesn't get much support from the ministry of external affairs, ministry of finance. So when you talk about customer import duties, when you talk about GST, all of these require lobbying across ministries, right? But the ministry of culture is a little bit on the side, right? Even with the small budget allocation that they do have, they can actually do tremendous good. It's just that there seems to be currently, at least, a level of disconnection between what is needed on the ground for the artists and the art community in reality versus what is an impression of what may be needed. And so that creates a sense of, you know, there are services, there is infrastructure, but it's just not what is needed. So money may be spent, but it's... What is needed? Well, public-private partnerships are needed. The private sector in India, I mean, we are 1% of the global art market, right? In terms of fine art. And it's 5,000 crores, let's say, as a valuation of the art industry, but that's nothing compared to the kind of art that is being shared, created, exchanged, bought, and sold, right? So public-private partnerships are needed. There are lots of examples around the world, also in India. You have Kiranathar Museum, who started the first private, only private museum in India today. There are several others that can follow. So the idea of corporate patronage for the arts, the idea of public-private partnerships to start off artist initiatives, collaborative spaces, residency projects, temporary exhibition spaces, incentivizing it with tax breaks. So for example, what you would earn with cultural tourism is more than what you'd make through import duties. So maybe drop the duties and encourage more artists to sell more work to a global audience. We have people from over 100 countries coming for the art fair because they're interested in what India has to offer. So it's really a question of creating those bridges between international organizations. It could be museums, it could be NGOs, it could be private sector organizations, and Indian. Tarun, you said, where is our Tate? Where is our MoMA? A lot of culture in countries like the United States or the United Kingdom are also pushed by private endowments. There is an entire culture of philanthropy for the arts, for culture. You have entire theaters that are actually named after people who have donated money to them. Why is that culture missing here? Why do we not see more private money entering this space? Well, to me, she has been in the business and she knows on day-to-day what's happening. I actually think that the private sector money is missing from a lot of areas. And we were discussing with Anita, I think the private sector till now is still chasing eyeballs. And if you say eyeballs, then you very quickly graduate and gravitate towards Bollywood because that's where the eyeballs are. And which is why I believe, since I have been in media myself and even now I'm in advertising very close to media and we have PR, I think media has got power. And when we talk about the private public partnership, I think that's very, very essential. But I think we have to somehow make media our partners to promote the entire, I think, attention given to art. When Christie's comes to India, the first thing they do, and I was at that time in media, first thing they do is host a very nice lunch with the press. I'm sure you know how that goes, but it's important for them. And I think it's great when Christie's comes to Bombay and you are sitting in the hall and paintings are being sold even though, even though as a sterling Neha, at least from my point of view, we have these progressive Bombay progressives and you have got some of the new ones, which are all, I think most of them are in the room, displayed outside. So they are 10 or 15, which command fantastic prices, but even then to actually sit at the Taj in Bombay and have Christie's there, gets the attention. And I think if we can involve media, you know, you're talking about Kabaddi, media can even make Kabaddi high-profile and fashionable. But has that happened also because of the Bollywood element in the Kabaddi? Partly, but I think if media decides to, media can. And which is what I'm saying in a partnership, I think we should use media. And I think since I represent PR also, I think it's sporadic, even the fantastic India Art Fair that Neha has been hosting for eight years. It's an event, which is for four days, but the press life of that event might be one month and after that it disappears. And I think that maybe, maybe a PR company, maybe from our group can engage and do a, start a dialogue on Indian, the Indian art scene, which continues through the year. And I'm saying maybe we can tie up with the Kiranadar Foundation or with Neha and start this dialogue. But is one of the problems, and I mean, anyone can take this, is that we've treated culture as a sort of high-brow thing that is accessible only to the wealthy or the privileged, right? So there is no notion of public spaces, our cities are not designed to have public spaces. It's not like Central Park in New York where everybody can go and access some performance. And there is somebody interested in patronizing the arts in a way that it is accessible to those who do not have money, right? Even your Broadway show, okay, fine. If you're ready to stand in line five hours, you will get a half price. If you can't afford the $120 or the $200, you will get, if you're ready to put your mind to it, the half price. You will maybe catch a Shakespeare in the Park in Central Park. So I think the problem is that we've not managed to make culture which is so civilizatially organic, organic in our contemporary lives. Yep, sorry. I'm sorry, because we were discussing it earlier. You're so right. I went to Milan in 2012 and they had the Design Week. And the Design Week was in their exhibition grounds like our media, Pageti Maidan. But the interesting thing was that the mayor of Milan decided that he wants to engage the entire city in the Design Week. So wherever you would go, you go to a supermarket. There is some design, some installation. In public squares, there's suddenly a stack of chairs we have made by designer. So you're absolutely right. I think we are not engaging. And what Neha said earlier about education, we are not engaging and educating people early enough. But it is changing. You know, if you look at the example of the Kochi Biennale, it's now been officially adopted by Kerala Tourism. So what Amitabh started with Incredible India and then went on the Kerala Tourism. And now the Biennale itself, the Art Biennale, is all over the state, right? So it's a phenomenal example of, yes, it's a not-for-profit, but partnership with the government and the tourism ministry has really resulted in this sort of bigger exposure and the media does have a big role to play. In India, there are only about 200, 300 private galleries. So there's only that much that can be done. But it's changing and it's changing very, very rapidly. So the development of the entire ecosystem, you know, you have shippers, you have framers, you have restorers, the whole academia, the publishing that is going on, the archiving that is going on, it is changing in a big way. And a lot of new business models are coming up to light that people can adopt and partner with. So I'm trying to share that with, yeah. But Anita, are you, do you share that optimism? I live in a state with a very peculiar problem. Tamil Nadu, the city of Chennai hosts the world's largest music and dance festival in December. The largest number of performances continuously for the last 75 years. And in the 75 years, it's not received a single penny of state support. And that is because in politics, in Tamil Nadu politics, the classical arts have always been suddenly associated with the elite as forward cast and the political movement has been against, yes, a rebellion against that. So while you have the world's largest music and dance festival happening in December with over 2,000 performances, you will never see a brochure at the airport. You will never see anything in any road. And I try to get the hotels to put up tent cards because there's always people coming to say, what's on? And there's so much resistance at every step of the way. So it's like, what's going on? Only it's like a big inside secret. So for 75 years and it'll continue. So with the media. Well, thanks to one media who dedicates whatever four to eight pages to the arts. But is there any merit in that historical elitism that I understand that to apply today is ridiculous? But I was making a different point. Like you're making a caste argument that there was something bramanical about, high brow culture, right? But if you apply that to today's age, there are culture barriers. There are culture barriers. Which is where you have to actually credit Bollywood for breaking the economic barriers of how you can access music and dance. You have to give them the credit. And classical dance had a huge say in choreography in the 40s and 50s and 60s in Bollywood. You had to be a classical dancer to even aspire to become a heroine. All the top heroines were all classically trained until about 15, 20 years ago. So the classical art, especially, and Bharat Natyam, was at the forefront of the national, recovery of the national identity discourse during independence. You know, it was like this, just because the British don't like it, we're not going to abolish it kind of. So it was front and center. We don't have arts as front and center of any debate. And of course, we have other issues, shrinking media space and other things. But this is a very vast country and it's got different problems that are not, there's not one set of problems. There's not one narrative. You know, this is really interesting. Like I would never have thought that that's the reason that performing arts festival doesn't get state support. Yes. But one would never have thought in this country, 35% of the workforce is in the creative industries in one form or another, right? So it is an underserved, underrepresented, but highly employable sector, right? And if you look at, there are examples that are coming up now more and more. Maybe they're not in mainstream media because mainstream media isn't giving it enough in terms of space. But, you know, if you look at the Serendipity Festival, for example, that the Munjals have started in Goa, right? It's a mixture of all art forms. And it's totally publicly accessible. You have the Kochi Biennale, you have the Art Fair. There are several examples now coming up. Lots of international interest now in setting up projects here, so with the French Institute, with the Max Mueller, several organizations with the Swiss Council that are adopting projects initiatives in India that hopefully should inspire Indian government interest as well to partner, such that we may find a footprint, perhaps at the Venice Biennale or various other things, that is really important for brand India because people can't understand why the smallest countries in the world have a pavilion at Venice, but India does not. So why don't we? This is not a question for me. This is a question for the culture minister. No, but I'm trying to understand, like, how does it... It's so obvious to me that if this country has to truly show 5,000 years of art history and use its soft power to its fullest potential, we have to be at the most significant art platform in the world. And we are not for no reason that I can think of. I never have been. I mean, there have been guest appearances by private sector. So the Gujral Foundation two years ago did a project at the Venice Biennale, which is India's first representation at Venice. So it's really these simple things. It's a five-point agenda that we should look at doing, both from the government side and private sectors, to say, what are the five things that we need to do to really show the world what India is? And we have the content for it. So it's a pity that we don't have the vehicles to showcase. Our performers should be at every top international festival. They should be groomed and primed and showcased at them. We are not. So Tarun, you said in the beginning that there's something to learn from Bollywood. And the one thing that I can learn beyond marketing is that thing of accessibility, right? Have we created a space where the arts continue to seem inaccessible to the ordinary Indian, where it's almost associated with privilege? It is true. It is true. And which is why when I read on the front pages of some financial newspapers, that it might have been sold for 4.4 million, it's great. But then I also think that is this making it inaccessible to a lot of people, which is what we were discussing earlier. So yes, and I think there is no simple and quick answer, like Bollywood always finds to this issue. I think it's a question of art appreciation. It's a question of the schooling system. There's so much attention to academics, art as a career. Oh, no, absolutely not. So I'm saying it's, but I agree with Neha that there is a little bit of momentum. I was talking to some friends who own galleries and they are saying that there are more people like you, not investors, collectors, who start with maybe a 50,000 first piece and then they move on as their income rises. And in India, the incomes are rising. It's beginning. According to them, it's maybe around 30, 35% growth annually, which is not bad. We are still a far cry from what I was reading somewhere that high net worth individuals globally, some 9% or 10% of the portfolio is invested in art. I'm sure even our high net worth individuals, we are far away from it, but it's changing. A friend of mine, he put down some multiple million dollars for a penthouse in Bombay, but he also spent $5,000 in his first Ramkumar. So it's changing. So hopefully, hopefully. No, but is it changing for the right reasons? Because there's also the status symbol as well. Like maybe for that friend, the penthouse and the painting mean the same thing. It is a system also, it is a symbol of social mobility. But what I'm talking about is public spaces where somebody who doesn't have $5,000, somebody who doesn't even have $1,000 can access that art. And where are those spaces? So you have to look at examples that are set, right? So 48 years ago, for instance, the world had art Basel. And now it's become an example where there are art fairs all over the world. London has 44 art fairs just in London, right? And so there are examples and things follow. I mean, it takes time, right? So in India, for instance, there are so many now artist collectives. There are things that are coming up, but it's about seeing examples. If they can do it, I can do it. If there can be a possibility of creating an event property or creating a publication in art or creating a campaign, you look at restoration work that, for example, the JSW Foundation is doing. I mean, there are these examples. And once they're there, others will follow, right? So it is something that is one step after the other. Anitha? My argument is I don't think the classical arts are for everybody, Barkha. I think ballet or the symphony or no or kabuki or the classical arts has, I think, because of the nature of the way it is, the years of discipline, the kind of study, and the forms themselves have to have what we call the Rasika. So I think that here, I'm not asking for you to popularize a certain technique or a culture. I'm trying to tell the teachers and the performers themselves to rethink what they perform for whom. And can we? When you say something's not for everybody, what do you mean? No, I mean that it is for a certain kind of audience who must have the patience to sit and absorb and watch heart to heart without worrying about what do I understand, do I understand? I don't understand. And so if I don't understand, I don't like it. No, I mean there is so much, there's so many layers to classical music or dance or to classical folk theater that we all don't understand, perhaps. But to just have the patience to sit and look and enjoy, even if it's for 20 minutes, we don't seem to have that mind space today. Yeah, I agree. Again, it comes back to exposure and what we were discussing earlier. And I was, I'm now in Mumbai, but I grew up in New Delhi and I was saying, what happened to Spick McKay? They used to organize so many festivals. In schools, all of our schools. Yeah, I started in, I know, I know it's still there, but it's not as, at least for me, maybe I've moved out of New Delhi. In our school at Barakamba Road, we used to have an all night classical music festival. And so I'm saying, yes, I think it still happens. Modern school had Narendra, Sharma, compulsory dance class. Yes, you're all part of that, compulsory. So the boys, everybody, yeah. But I'm saying maybe it's the Bombay thing as Delhi, but my kids growing up, they don't have the kind of exposure and they are still the entitled kids. And yes, I think it's a big, big problem. And which is why we were saying if there is one Jahangir, which is accessible and accessible to artists once in 10 years, well, we have a serious, serious issue. And I think that the momentum has begun, and which is why in my earlier job when we did a festival called the Good Homes for Art, it was inspired by the Milan Festival. And we said we'll drag art out of the galleries and take it to the people. And a lot of the artists and the galleries joined in, and we went to malls, to supermarkets. We had, outside in the gardens, we had engagement with artists and people came and worked with the artists. So, but I'm saying it is still baby steps and I think a lot needs to be done. Can I just add, sometimes it comes down to one individual, Barkha. I remember Zed Kama when he headed HSBC and he initiated, he was one of the catalysts for the Kala Ghoda Festival because the branch was there. And the foyer of the bank was an art gallery, if he chose it to be. And then when he moved to Kuala Lumpur, he made that bank also the foyer for an art gallery. So sometimes it takes one person, just one person at the head of a very big corporation to initiate some kind of, so I just use his example because he was very successful wherever he went and he made it a point to engage with the local artists. So we're in the last five minutes. If anyone has a question from the floor, we can take a question, comment where you feel the gaps. Yeah, we'll start here in the front row. Thank you, I think that was a brilliant discussion. My thought was that there are lots of dying arts in India, whether it's the Patachitra, whether it's other things. So why can't corporations go perhaps give the good money and get some tax benefits? Restoring India's 5,000 years of heritage, it'll be his own history. If arts is part of CSR, many instances, I don't think arts is actually, arts is not part of CSR. So then you have to incentivize and make it part of CSR because I think otherwise you will not get corporate attention in today's India's environment. You know, I agree. I mean, there are people committing suicide, right? Farmers are committing suicide, cotton farmers. And I mean, when you talk of the creative industries, you're talking of the next generation not wanting to go into weaving. We're talking of the next generation not wanting to do what their parents are doing. They would much rather work in IT. And so, yeah, we live in a society where a mediocre accountant can make a living, but an excellent performing artist has to leave her country to make her living. Depressing. One, somebody else had a question? Yes, yes. Can we get him the mic, please? Thank you. I'm gonna try to formulate the comment. Can you hold up your mic? Yes, I'm gonna try to formulate the comment. So it's really interesting here because what's... Just hold it closer. What's interesting for me is what do you actually define as art? From in my mind, there's essentially four types of art that are prevalent in any country ago. You got the high arts, right? You got popular art, you got folk art, and then of course, you got hobby art. And in many societies, many societies face exactly the same kind of tension that we're talking about here, particularly as you're talking about the high arts. And I don't agree, there's no space for the arts. There's always very limited space for the high arts in any country. The only country that I've seen a reasonable integration across these four types of arts is Japan. I've traveled a lot there, and essentially, it's a country with an immensely strong popular art culture, in extremely strong high art culture, extremely strong in the individual hobby arts, and also folk arts. And so what I'm trying to... So what is the India scene? So, I mean, the question is really, from my perspective, is are we framing this discussion largely in the context of high arts? And to look at Japan, for example, where is this? Anyone want to take that? Well, I want to credit the Sangeet Natal Academy and the Ministry of Culture for even discovering a lot of lost art forms in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, without which we won't have many of the art forms that have been exist today, you know? And I'm talking of things like Yaksagana or Satria, or so many other art forms. Now when in India, we also wonderfully alive tribal arts, and we have ritual arts, and this is one culture that has excellence in all the art forms, visual arts as well as the performing arts. And so I think those kinds of partnerships, I mean, we're not only talking of high art, we're anyway, we're sitting in a seven star bubble now, and we're discussing art, and we're discussing this. So this is also a little bit unreal, you know? And this is like the proverbial glass bubble. But does anyone else want to take this thing on high versus not exactly low, but popular? There is, I mean, it does go to the root of the debate around it, and it's a deeply political debate, right? When I say political, I don't mean party political, but deeply political at its art. Well, I'm not sure. I mean, you're an advertising, that's a kind of art form. Yeah, it's an art form, it's a commercial art form, easy to monetize, and other words are also easy. I'm not sure. Can I hold you there? Because even that has been pushed to change, right? So when today, the ads that people remember are actually short films that have very little to do with the product being sold. So you are going to remember your agency just did a Jammu and Kashmir tourism campaign where whether or not commercially more tourists go to Kashmir, which is the eventual aim, there is a story there that makes its own statement. There is the story in the Vicks ad campaign where there is a transgender person who is going to become a mother, right? So this has nothing to do with Vicks or the commerce of it. I'm saying even in your sector, you're being pushed to tell better stories. Absolutely, and as somebody said in Cannes last year, it's almost going back to how the term SOAPs started. The SOAP brand was just presenting the series, the series on, so it was just the presenting sponsor of a very good story that was being told, not interfering with the story. And you were right today because of digital, if people lose interest and everything, something is being pushed, they'll just move on. And if they like it, like the Kashmir ad, then they will share. So there is incentive for brands to get into that sharing because that's free and it's voluntary. So I agree with you that things are changing, but to answer your question, even for us, one, I agree, we talked about Patachitra, Warli, Madhubani, Bancura, I know it very well because I grew up and my parents were wherever they would go in India or to China, they would pick up traditional art, folk art. So I understand that and I know some of these industries are dying. But look at Bengalart, Germany Roy, he made high art accessible by saying, hang on, but I'm going to paint so much that it's always going to be accessible. So I'm not sure whether I understand the distinction between high art and low art, but I certainly believe that art should be accessible and I think art will become more accessible if it goes beyond the Bombay progressives and Anish Kapoor and Paranakar and Ramendra Reddy. And if there is a larger bank of artists, I think it will become more accessible. Okay, last question, anybody? Anybody from the floor? Yeah, at the back, yes. I feel that there is the role of education and the whole education system that is somehow kind of moving us, the younger generation away from art. So I feel that one of the things that we don't seem to care about too much is the history and culture, the 5,000 years that you're talking about. And how do we address that? I mean, who's taking care of, who's looking at the history books and saying, hey, there's not much or not enough being taught in schools because that's where it starts. Because in today's world, the parents, like you said, Tarun, your children don't have the same exposure that you had from your parents. So who addresses that? How do we take some corrective action to move that back away from the American soap to what is actually ours? I couldn't agree with you more. And when I went to China, my parents were communists, so we went to China often. One thing that I noticed was the pride in their history. And I think we don't have that much pride in our history and even institutionally, you land in any city in Beijing, you can be sure that everyone can trace back at least 2,000, 3,000 years, the story behind the particular monument or the thing that you were saying. And I also agree with you in terms of our curriculum. I think our curriculums in schools actually are very linear and they're taking kids away from creativity. And I actually think ironically and strangely enough in this high-tech world, what's increasingly happening is that there is a demand for students and people with softer skills of social sciences because who's going to teach the robots to relate to humans? So I couldn't agree with you more. I think it starts early and I think our school curriculum needs too much more. Okay, I have to wrap up Anita. I think the absence of history and philosophy in our curriculum syllabus has been taken over by some of the very good dance teachers because I think that in some dance classes, the students are given through the learning of the dance, the history and philosophy, at least in the context of what they're learning. And I think there are some teachers that are actually inadvertently, I don't think they're doing it knowingly, but I know that they are having to enrich their own teaching methods because they find that there is a lack of it in the education system. I will close with Tarun's thought which I think is where the shift is that at one level there is so much talk about the pride of India and nationalism and there's a very popular... Now India is 70. Yes, and they're all of these slogans, but this is our history, this is the fabric of our country and I think there's a kind of mismatch between the rhetoric around it and actually the encouragement in an organic way. Yes. I am going to close there. And just to her point very quickly, I mean, we have to think about a world 10, 20 years from now when AI and robotics are going to take over most of the jobs as we know them today. Yes, that's what Satya Nagela also said. And we're going to have roomfuls of people talking about the creative industries because you have to think about new forms of expression and new ideas, right? So it is very much relevant in times to come and India is well-placed to participate. I have a big round of applause to Tarun Neha and Anitha. Thank you. Thank you.