 Thank you. My name is Els and this is my colleague matt. We're both from the University of Bermートium so we haven't had very far to come today. So thank you for coming to this particular session, which is a workshop about accessible and inclusive practice. So what we'll do is, we'll talk a little bit about things that we've done, and we'll have an element of reflection and then we'll also see perhaps what you would like to do yourselves if there are ways that you could do similar things to what we've done. So what we've done is called the inclusive educator initiative and we'll talk a little bit about what that is, show you some of the content and then we'll talk about the impact that it's had at our university and what it's led to and that's what the accessible educator refers to. So as I said, we'll give you some examples and ask the question what you could be doing next. So first of all the aims and content of what we were trying to do. So what we wanted to do was have a means for educators to commit to inclusive practice. So it's different from let's have a training course on inclusion, we've got that it's compulsory and when people start the university they have to do it and it's very general but we work with academics and other staff at the university and we felt it was important to talk about inclusion specifically in the roles that people had without making them jump through a hoop and tick a box and say yeah I've done that I'm inclusive now it was about a commitment towards becoming more inclusive and so what we did is we created a voluntary resource sometimes we call it a course but it's not like here's a course you have to take this course so you can sign up for this course it's functions in many different ways it's a repository and it's a tool for communication we'll say a little bit more about that in a minute and so we wanted to use an existing platform so nothing new and something that was accessible at any time but crucially when we were talking to our provice chancellor of education at the time she was very keen that it needed to be done in 30 minutes or less and of course the reason for that is is if you package it as something that can be done in 30 minutes or less the very busy academics all around us might be more likely to engage with it and think oh I've got 30 minutes obviously the the aim is that they would come back to it that there would be some level of continued engagement with it but it was very much and I think that is part of its success package as something that you can do this in 30 minutes you know do you want to know a little bit more about it do you want to commit to this are you inclusive already or is there more that you want to learn that's what you can do so we also you can see there had a badge designed so again people could put that on their profiles online in their signatures and what have you so there was also a little sort of outward thing that people could show again to encourage perhaps other people to wonder about what it was and engage with it and so the design principles of this was that it needed to be realistic concise focused practical and I thought it was also very important that it would be enjoyable to some extent not some terrible thing that you felt oh I don't want to work through this also we wanted to make sure that everything in there was evidence based to give it credibility so that we're not going to say oh this is inclusive practice when actually we don't have the evidence to back that up and I already said we didn't want people to have to do this and tick it off but it would be part of an ongoing process as something that you could go back to as a commitment that you make rather than something that you tick off as oh I'm inclusive now and it needed to be comprehensive and address inclusion and enhanced representation of all underrepresented groups that's a big ask so obviously certainly in 30 minutes but it actually helps to have something very wide as the focus so that you could link to lots of resources and think about the types of groups that needed to be thought about and included but not sort of throw lots of information at people because they weren't going to take all that in at that point but that if they had a question they could come to it and find some answers about the particular students for example that they were thinking about and then very importantly the four things at the bottom we wanted it to encourage self-evaluation, generate as a bank of good practice but also promote continued discussion ownership of the resource and establish a community and promote collaboration so as I said we used an existing platform so we simply used the VLE which everybody was already familiar with and was very easy for us to put things on too so we kept it very very simple in that sense so I'll talk very briefly now about the impact that it's had on accessible and inclusive practice not that you can measure that very easily I'm not suggesting that for a moment but what we did see is that people did enroll themselves so there's a self-enrolling it was sent round it was university wide communication and also in specific targeted groups we did go and talk to departments about it and people did enroll themselves on it and then we got some people who are EDI champions in their departments who were telling other people about it and we started getting inquiries about could we make this compulsory we don't want to that's part of the whole ethos but we did embed it in our courses that were already existing the training for post graduates who teach and the pgc in higher education again it wasn't compulsory in the sense that they had to do that in order to pass their courses but it was part of the courses and we led them to it so that everybody who starts at the university knows that it exists and can come back to it as opposed to if you ask people did you do EDI training right when they started at induction they've forgotten because they just did it alongside lots of other things they had to do and it was very overwhelming and so the only challenges and this is this is something that we do keep thinking about or to keep spreading the word I mean can you put that information out again about this thing existing are people that are on that are enrolled or they're telling other people about it and obviously we want people to to come back and ensure that the resources are up to date is another thing that we need to make sure somebody's doing that and if something new comes out say from advanced HE about inclusion we make sure that it's posted and then added to the bank of resources so that people always have the latest information about whatever area of inclusion there is so it takes a little bit of time to maintain but not that much and it is because it's a BLE it has got this quick discussion platforms built in it's got quizzes built in so the interaction does come with it already so that's been really really useful welcome yeah and another example of the impact is that people we could see on the discussion boards that people started talking about particular themes that were of interest to them and one major theme that came out was accessibility as part of the whole talk about inclusion a lot of people were talking about how to make my materials more accessible which was part of the course but that's where the discussions very often went when people were talking about their practice or what they wanted to develop so we saw that and we thought okay I think there's perhaps a need for accessible educator I think that's how it went that's pretty much it isn't it I think yeah so as Elle said there's a lot of resources in the inclusive educator and conversations around accessibility but more and more of the discussion topics within the reflective discussion were around accessibility and digital accessibility and considerations and questions and observations around that and we've already got an extensive set of digital accessibility resources for staff in terms of technical guidance in terms of how to you know comply with the legislation those kind of things but we wanted something that was more practice driven and was more about approaches that you might take from a teaching practice perspective and that's where the accessible educator came along so exactly the same model as the inclusive educator the same kind of approach it's a 30-minute self-paced course it is primarily reflective it's about you thinking about your approach to your teaching rather than just kind of testing your knowledge and being bombarded with all the legislation and all the requirements around the web content accessibility guidelines and and all that kind of stuff that information is there and it's signposted if they want to find it we signpost backwards and forwards between our more technical guidance resources as well but what we have seen with both courses is that those are being referenced in HEA fellowship applications you know those are good providing good evidence and good context setting for staff as they're working through those fellowship applications so that they're having a real positive impact from that point of view both courses accessible education as well as inclusive educator are still self-enrol are still optional there's no mandatory element to them so we have to keep on doing that kind of awareness raising that knowledge raising those conversations with departments where perhaps departments are thinking about asking their staff to engage in those courses so there's kind of pushes intense period of activity perhaps and then perhaps activity drops off for a bit but we are seeing the badges on people's email signatures and those kind of things which is always it's always nice when you see those coming back to you so some examples then from the resources and this is the home page of the inclusive educator it's just on canvas we said it's just on our VLE it's deliberately simple and straightforward in terms of navigation as we say it's itself enrolled so there's a join button on the home page people can just access it anyway otherwise and kind of browse through but to properly engage with it you've got to join the course and it's divided into a number of areas in terms of what canvas calls modules and then discussions and a few other bits and pieces so this is the structure of our courses so you have an introduction a brief page or so of introduction that sets the context and the rationale for the course and the reason for asking people to engage with it we have a set of qualities in both courses that these are the qualities that an inclusive educator or an accessible educator would subscribe to in order to apply those qualities in their teaching we have a number of links out to other resources you know that those are the kind of the optional on top of the optional course if you like those are the things that make it take longer than 30 minutes but we have various kind of quick starts in terms of quick starts quick points that you can take on but more detailed information that you can engage in and then the kind of the the the meat of the course if you like are then two self-assessment quizzes and they're just reflective activities that colleagues work through in their own time in their own pace with no no right answer to them but just to allow you to reflect on both your attitudes and your actions in the area of discussion for the course both courses the the attitudes quizzes are really short there's seven questions in those and then there's there's 14 or 16 questions in the in the actions questions in the actions quiz elements as well and we're going to take you through some of those from both of the courses in a moment so you'll get a chance to sample those we then finish with a discussion element so the examples of inclusive practice that's a reflective discussion element that's an opportunity for colleagues to share with each other approaches that they're already taking perhaps to comment on approaches that other people are taking so a bit of a sharing of practice and we get you know really extensive good posts in there but also responses to posts as well so there's a good conversation happening within that that area and people picking up tips and approaches from each other as well as they work through none of this is marked or assessed we do go in and you know kind of review what the the discussions are like what kind of approach people are taking we will sometimes pop in and respond and add some encouraging words usually is is is my approach or I guess you do similar but that's essentially it essentially it's self-paced and it's standalone the final part that's not on that slide is that there's a commitment statement so there's a very simple I commit to being an inclusive educator I commit to being an accessible educator yes or no people hit yes by the time they've got that far through and that gets you the badge so you know you kind of make that commitment to yourself and progress through so I'm going to take you through self-assessment quizzes we're going to do this on Bevox if I can get that all working on here which hopefully can so let me just get that up for you so this is the first question but obviously you've got to get into Bevox first so I will just read that out because having watched some of the livestream yesterday sometimes quite hard to see it from anybody who's watching the livestream so you need to go to the to bevox.app and the id is 185-985-361 that's 185-985-361 I just obviously give you time to get in there and as I say there's no this to liberally set up so there's not a right answer in terms of the quiz it's about you being honest with yourself in terms of your approach and your your attitude so we'll start off with some of the attitude questions first of all so it's not a test no pass mark it's the engagement it's just that commitment at the end that's the pass mark there's just a couple more of you to respond I'll just give you a moment to do that I will just pop up the results because it's always interesting to see and so brilliant you've entered into the spirit of it which is great in terms of just being honest in your responses there and then we do provide some feedback so I need to just swap I'm going to have to jump a little bit around between the two things so I'll let you read the feedback I'm not going to read that out to you okay is everyone reasonably ready for me to move on so I will move on to a second oh I don't do that what's right Dory haven't it hello welcome with something some activities from courses that we offer um or or kind of self reflection activities if you like so so we're allowing people to have time to just reflect on those think about their answers okay so I'm going to flip flip back to the the feedback for that one just bear with me while I get down on the last slide forward then but this is one from our accessible educator course okay yeah okay feedback to that one spare with me how's that okay so those those are the examples of the the attitudes questions and then we move on to the actions one ones so again a few examples from both courses okay and these first for you don't have any feedback or comment associated with them so they're just just purely for you for yourself and then I'm just going to skip forward to the two from the accessible educator course okay and this one does have some feedback associated with it so just find that one for you I just wanted to add something about the decision to have two different types of quizzes and usually there's no feedback on the actions because the actions are statements that are based on good practice based on research so you know how I say it was evidence based these statements are statements of good practice it's sort of acknowledges that you might have good reason for not putting it into practice but it's actually saying these are actions you should be considering um whereas the other thing was more about reflecting and raising awareness of how inclusive am I ready what could I be doing the actions are like oh here are some things that we think we should be doing do you do that you could still then decide not to but it's sort of that distinction has been made and so that's why the first one has feedback to sort of say this is what we think might be going on whereas with the actions it's like here's a statement of good practice do you do that and so it makes people reflect but in different ways right I had to come out of those those polls now thank you for your your contributions and engagement in those um skip forward slightly okay so that was obviously quite a kind of a solo reflective factivity you're doing that work on your own um so here's the bit where you get to talk to each other now um you can just do that with the person next to you or you can do that as a larger table group however that kind of works for you but really focus on those first two questions we've got on there so what did you think about these types of questions um what do you think about the way that makes you think in terms of engaging with that resource um what about the the types of questions and the type of content of those questions as they were being asked and the type of feedback that you got from them as well what were your thoughts as you were engaging in those um and if you had any if you feel you want to kind of go a bit further and think about any strong personal response to any of the questions um or any other reactions feel free to have those conversations as well but really just focusing on those those first two bullet points um and if there is anybody watching online feel free to put that into the the Q&A section on Vvox and we'll come we'll come back and pick those up not going to ask every table to feedback not not particularly going to get feedback other than perhaps if if some people have things that they really strongly want to share with the group after your discussions we'll very happily take that um and share that with the room okay stood up for 10 10 minutes so 10 minutes yeah so that Just going to give you another couple of minutes. Ychwanegwch chi'n gwneud hynny'n gweithio gyda'r Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Llywodraeth Cymru. Ychwanegwch chi efo'r llwyddiadol y Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Llywodraeth Cymru efo'r Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Llywodraeth Cymru. o'r tych yn amlwy fawr, o'r cyfeirio dillwyddo, o'r cyfeirio'r pryd, o'r cyfeirio'r pryd. Mae'r pryd wedi bod yn r튼 nhw'n hun, o'n rhoi wedi eu cyfrannu i chi i unedau y bwysigau. Yn eich bwysigau, yna, mae'n bod yn ddod o'r amlwyddo. Mae'n ddysgu sicrhau iday i chi i chi i chi i chi i chi'i cael eu bwysigau. 이것 ond, sut ach 때ch laeth posie, a'r merch f Soundcast'y hyd fynd wedi eu rwyda chi mewn symh would. O erioedd arnell ar gyfry agaigus cyde, roedd mawr yn gwneud a chi'n d ffordd hwn ac mae'r eich cwyddiadau o hyfy o bobl yn sailu chi'n gant yw miliwn, we take your object differently, and in a way that kind of mirrors the approach we take in the course, you know, listen at the discussions we have in the, the course of discussion forums, you know, it really is just post or share something or reflection or any of those kinds of things, and in a way, that was what you're asking you to do here, although we're asking you to reflect on the questions and the approach there a little bit more perhaps to your own responses, but probably that thinking came in to it as well. So really, really very much focus around that Having said that, is there anybody that wants to share something or a thought that they were having or a response to those, the question types we asked you or the questions we've got up on the screen? Is there anybody who wants to share any of those things with the rest of the room? Yes, thank you. Some of the questions that we've been asked, going right to a minute or sort of went away with some of the information that we've been asking. Some of them we have to know that these questions were made up or… Look at these areas of… Look at these areas of… I don't know if it's just a bit particular to what you're saying, but I don't know if it's just thinking… Could you take that one to a third? I mean, I think that's a great idea. Can you just summarise that in the mind? Yeah, so just in terms of the question for anybody tuning in online stream was whether we thought about providing an action plan essentially. So, you know, if you answer particular answers, you then got a kind of a feedback of information that you can take away in action. Hopefully that summarises your question. Yeah, I think, I feel we did talk about that at some point. I think we were limited by the tool we had available to us at that point. So it would be nicer to do that in a more sophisticated way that you could provide it. What we're trying to do with the feedback there is to provide some of that kind of prompting and some of the feedback then signpost out to other resources. So there's a little bit of that, but I think that could go further. I have a question. So in terms of just the framework of the task, in terms of stating questions to educators, I worry that it may be a bit too passive per se and it doesn't force that introspection among educators. We were talking as a table of the scenarios and the questions that you both educators, what if it could be in terms of like a video, so like creating a video of what the questions would be like. The only problem is that when you sort of like take tasks like this and you just put like text on it, it could maybe seem a bit like it doesn't know you to probably engage with it. And maybe you'll see like sort of like video responses where like students had to select all that educators. They were like, it was an example of like, I think it was like the good students versus like the bad students, whether that was actually was portrayed as like a video. And then the question actually followed up for the response. And then I was just like thinking, the only problem with the questions I thought that does actually truly provide that introspection among the educators just because it's in the question of format. I feel like creating that video allows sort of like the educators to sort of see, am I actually guilty of these scenarios on screen rather than just sort of the question. I'd like to ask that to the room actually. What do people feel when they were going through the questions. I think it's a great question. Yeah, because you could provide those examples those kind of almost role play examples those those case studies. Yes. Deeply aware of the online folks. So I'm at the University of Minnesota and I was going to ask, did you use case studies and that gets to your point in some ways to we did this a 30 minute module required. I was on the task force when we went to the consultation groups students faculty administrators across five universities in the state. They all said we want to hear from students and we want case studies that play this out and we want to hear how the teachers responded in those cases and how the disability folks responded. And I think that was a big piece of why we got 3000 responses in a place that doesn't do that Minnesota the University of Minnesota is not known for compliance with mandatory programs, so I think that those cases and your questions with those cases, it made me think that we need more of those questions at the end, so thank you for that but the cases were great for the kinds of things that you're getting at and that they were student voices and they were diverse in their disabilities their backgrounds or experiences to I'll come back to something on that first. I would agree and I know videos are particularly popular case studies are very powerful. So if I were to develop this, I would definitely do that because I think there is something static about this even though it's reflective but there's two things there one is, because it's voluntary sign up and not mandatory. People don't they come to learn, or they come to share or both. We've sort of already got that audience in the first place so it's very unlikely that they'll look at the first questioning and the second question girl this is a bit boring. It's more likely they'll go through it and I think it comes to life on the discussions afterwards when people share their practice and respond to what they've read. That's when it comes more to life. If I was developing it, I would 100% on case studies and I certainly would want to liven it up with different formats in there as well. In the 30 minutes, I don't think it's achievable. And so you have to compromise somewhere. And somebody over there was saying how vital the 30 minutes when I think it depends on your context for us. The 30 minutes is the one principle we're not going to go away from. So that's it's a compromise somewhere. That's the one where I think I still feel like that's where we are, but I will give that some further thought because I think it's not impossible. There are some things we could do with that, but not to the extent that you have. And I think that would be a really valuable thing to do. But I think it becomes a different thing. And I certainly want to work on that. Doesn't it have to be a relationship? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. Different formats, comic strip, as you just mentioned, would also be very effective. They are and I think they would work very well. But yeah, that's a future development one thing, if anything. Hi, thank you for sharing this. Our table had a couple of questions that are linked together. Firstly, are these quizzes anonymous? And if not, are you sort of gathering the data on the responses and seeing sort of what your staff are doing as a collective? The quizzes are anonymous. I'm not collecting the data because we're not giving enough context here. You know that question that says I have my reasons. They may be very good reasons. And so there's a huge conversation to be had there. So what we do is we have the conversation at the end where people can bring those things in. And occasionally somebody says that particular question. There's something wrong with the language or there's something wrong this bit. I felt it was a little bit patronising or something like that. So we have an open dialogue there about improving things, but we're not doing the stats. Sometimes people say, can you tell us how many people from the medical school have done this? Can you tell us that? That's the only thing we can actually say it widely, but they go, what about my department? We cannot tell you that. We ask them at the beginning to identify their school, but we don't go deeper than that. And it's very clear to the participants that this is not about that. I think the statistics would be interesting, but actually only if we could follow them up and get context. And so again, that would be a different piece of work. I think it might be different as well if it was mandatory, because I think then the institution will probably be asking us for that data in terms of benchmarking a point in time and then measuring change over that time in terms of those changes to those answers. But as we say, the course is optional self sign up. So, yeah, thankfully, we're not looking at that data and we're not sharing that. I'm following up from that question. Is the discussion anonymous as well? And do you scaffold that in any way or is it just, here's a discussion area, contributing example or reflect on the questions, how scaffolded and supported is the discussion? I'll just answer that briefly and then I'll come in. So the discussion is not anonymous, that is named in terms of those responses, but it's scaffolded in terms of share an element of your practice or comment on a post that somebody else has made. So you're not kind of required to share your expertise, particularly if you're thinking about digital accessibility, for example. Well, share something brilliant that you've done from an accessibility perspective. So actually we see a lot of people saying, well, you know, I'm going to really take that point away and think about that and maybe apply that to my practice. So it's much more reflective in that sense and responding to what else is there, but it's not anonymous. And I think that's why we have, we do have rich data, because one of the things is we noticed a lot of the discussions were about accessibility. So we felt there was a need to actually set up a resource to support people with that. So that was one example. But you know how many discussions you set up for people in your work, and sometimes people just post something and then they go away again. It's different here. It's the, I think one of the best things that I find about these resources is that we genuinely have a conversation across the campus, and I cannot imagine otherwise, because you know people do work in huge schools and they're in their own silos talking to the same people about the same things. But this actually goes across and it's fascinating to see how many people actually read it and sometimes people from the School of Education, who are very, very much clued up on some of these issues will post really long things and other people are finding it helpful and people there's a discussion. There's a place where people can connect to others and say, I can come and talk to you about X if you want just you know here's my details. That's where there's a rich data on what people actually choose to talk about what things they find interesting, what interaction we're getting, and who wants to do what and the cooperation that you get. So there's something definitely very rich there, which I expected, but I didn't expect it to be that amazing. It was one of those, we need to have that at the end. Yes, but actually that's where I think a lot of, you know, people can be on the 30 minutes there I think and put that time in and it's fabulous to read what good practice people are sharing across the whole campus. So yeah. I suggest we move on to some more questions for you, but again just pick up that conversation where you were because I think some of this and some of you might already have been there. And again it's just another opportunity for you to talk to each other and maybe raise some more questions at the end. And people online I don't know if anybody has used the platform but they can also put their questions on. So this is really about where you go next with this and I think some of you already do what we do or other things or in different ways so I would encourage you to keep sharing that. And also if equality, diversity and inclusion is not actually part of your official role. You know, and you're here. What is it? Are you trying to develop that? Are you wanting to develop that? Is that something we should all be doing within what we do? And so reflect on the ways you contribute to the development of resources on inclusivity. So this is Canvas because that is our platform. Does your VLE actually lend itself to work like this or do you need something else? And in terms of the design principles that we saw here, I think we've already been touching on that like some of the things we do is limited. I'd still argue it's because of the 30 minutes, but maybe we should be doing and thinking about doing other things as well. And I think that question about, you know, is it voluntary? Is it mandatory? Who delivers it? Where do they go? Should it be face to face? Well, all those sorts of things be interesting if you could pick up that conversation in your groups for the next 10 minutes or so. And then we'll just come back to see if there's any more questions, any more comments. And, you know, I'll just let you get back to taking that discussion a little bit further about the future. What's next for you? What is in the pipeline? We've actually got five minutes till the end of the session. So five minutes. Unless you want to stay and chat after the official end. We're here. Yeah. Roeddwn i eich cynhyrch, Roeddwn i eich cynhyrch ymlaen i ddeunydd. Roeddwn i eich cynhyrch. Roeddwn i eich cynhyrch ymlaen i ddeunydd i ddeunydd, ddim yn hadeithio. Roeddwn i eich cynhyrch roedd y ffordd a'r prifysgau i gyd yn y pethau. Roeddwn i eich cynhyrch roedd yn ei wneud a'r ffordd ymlaen i ddeunydd i'r ffordd a'r ffordd a'r ffordd a'r ffordd. ond ydw i'n gŵr eich oes wedi'i gychwyn ei gei'r rhagor a gawdd o'r drafodaeth, arcwyddo'i dweud arnyn nhw'n pesoedd gŵr. Wrth gwrs, mae'n rhan o'n ei dŵr haf, rhagor o'r dweud. Wrth gwrs, mae'n rhan o'n ei dŵr haf, rhagor o'n eich oes o'n ei dŵr haf o'n ei dŵr a rhan o'n ei gŵr a rhan o'n ei gŵr a rhan o'n ei dŵr, raw, amddai ddweud yn digwydd iddyn nhw sydd yn dweud ar y llції i chi'n deunydd, a gtwch, ac mae'r ddefnyddd rhagosion i'n dda i ddweud yn ddisgrifennidol. Ond, mae'n deunydd i mewn gwneud o gyda'r lle fydd yn gofio. Felly, roeddwn i'n gwaith wedi gweithio i fynd i ni yn mynd eu ddweud i mwyaf a gwych, ac mae'n gw onsiaidion, mae'n argynnu'n ddysgu i'r hefyd, ac mae'n gwaith yma'r cynyddo ei hunain o'r rhai mewn rwydytol. I think I have a nice insight in the three sentences of the topic, and I'm going to hand some of the sign for that. I'll just get it over there. Thank you. I'll be able to do it with you. I'll be able to do it with you. I'll be able to do it with you. I'm going to hand some of the sign for that. I'll be able to do it with you. I'll be able to do it with you. I'll be able to do it with you. I was going to say.... dwy'ch yrhaid. ddarlŷ! Felly, ddim yn gwleidio ddim yn gwleidio ddim yn gwleidio'n gwrthiol. Roeddwn i ddweud i ddryf i ddarlŷ, dyma wnaeth ymlaen. OK. We're out of time, unfortunately. So, if you want to go to lunch, lunch should be ready and you feel free to leave with no disrespect from us whatsoever, feel free to leave. If however you want to carry on talking or you want to talk to us, please do stay. I believe it totally in your hands. Other than to say, thank you very much for your engagement. It's been really, really interesting conversation, really both in terms of big group and also little conversations going on on the tables as well. It's really, really interesting for us and useful for us to share this and get your feedback and gives us further thoughts about how we might develop further and different elements that might come in or other approaches that we might want to take. We're also thinking about putting together or are putting together in one of our areas of one of our faculties, a kind of a face-to-face version of this of the course and actually thinking about how to do accessible educator as a face-to-face version is quite a challenge in many respects. And so this is going to really help towards that. Not that you were in any way a guinea pig set for that. That wasn't the aim, but actually this is just a kind of a convenient connection of events that this might feed into that. Thank you very much for all your thoughts and input and we'll be here to answer any more questions or continue the conversation.