 Welcome to Pookie Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Dr. Pookie Nightsmith and I'm your host. In today's episode, I'm exploring the question, how can schools take a trauma-informed approach post-pandemic with headteacher Stuart Guest? Stuart has over 13 years experience as a headteacher and is the father of a birth child and two adopted children. He's developed trauma-friendly approaches at his school and has seen the positive impact this can have on pupils, families, staff and outcomes for the school. I've brought this episode forward in my schedule as I couldn't wait to share it with you. Listen to the end, where Stuart's closing thoughts left me lost for words and with a massive lump in my throat. Enjoy the show. I'm Stuart Guest, I'm headteacher of Colborne Primary School in Birmingham and I've got two adopted children and a birth daughter as well and we are a trauma-informed school and we have been for quite a few years and we try to do the best that we can for our children, particularly those with additional needs. And how much of what you do and your drive as a trauma-informed school is informed by your personal experience? Because as a fellow parent of both a biological and an adopted daughter, I mean, I assume it would inform quite a bit. Yeah, absolutely. I think over the last sort of 12 years plus my learning has rapidly grown but also I've got a really great team of staff and particularly members of my leadership team, my assistant head for inclusion, who is trauma-informed. So I've got people around me that are like-minded that have been able to challenge me, challenge them to have a collective and understood approach to being trauma-informed because you can't be one person, it's got to be everyone. Absolutely. So it's kind of driven by a personal passion and your personal life but then very much with your professional hat on you've got that team who are fully on board and just kind of back stepping because we never know who's going to listen in and many people who are listening in trauma-informed will be part of their kind of common vernacular but for some people it won't be. So can you just explain what does it mean to be a trauma-informed school and why does it matter? Absolutely. For me it's to start with it's about knowledge, it's about learning for staff about what trauma means, the impact that can have on children, how to support them, their coping mechanisms and the therapy mechanisms. So that's the first part for me is understanding what it actually means and the impact trauma can have on children. And then for me the next stage is about the whole policies and procedures. So what needs to change within the school setting that reflects the knowledge that you've now gained and that's critical, that seems like behaviour, rewards, sanctions, approaches, the type of staffing you have, all that. And then it goes into the provision, what does it look like in the classroom? What does it look like when a child is really struggling? What does it look like at the start of the day? What does it look like at dinner time and transition points? So it moves from the knowledge then making sure your policies reflect that and then into the actual practice and what you see on the ground for the children. And what do we mean by trauma? I think people need to understand the two main different types of trauma. You've got that trauma that's an acute incident, a car crash or something like that. And then you've got that ongoing trauma that's repeated over a long period of time that physically changes the body and how you react to things. And understand those two different traumas that are really important because they need a different type of provision in schools. So what I do a lot of work on is that ongoing trauma. So those children that have had difficult starts in their lives, they're already in their home life but it isn't great and they're not getting the nurture and the care they need, that's going to impact on them. So it's about understanding what that might look like for them. And then if they are hypervigilant or if they're very short fused and reactive, why that might be and what we can then do to help. And you're saying that this kind of approach sort of finds its way into all that you're doing. So it's right there at the high level in your policy and how you approach everything and then obviously it must be playing out in your practice day to day. Could you give me an example? If we took behaviour, what would a trauma-informed approach to behaviour look like? Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's a few key things. One, when you see a child, I'd say being disruptive for example, let's say in the classroom, a trauma-informed view would be, okay, I can see that child is struggling, I wonder what's going on, what's the best way to support them. A non-trauma-informed way is they're causing me trouble, they need to be out of my room. And I think it's those two directions that behaviour policies can go in. It's the more punitive, the isolation or just get out of my room, you're disturbing others, they've got a right to learn that type of approach. And actually, what is this saying? Is it saying that they're just having a really difficult morning, something's gone on? Or is it actually saying my teaching's not very good today and they're getting bored easily? So it's that being really reflective and thinking, okay, what is this telling me and what do I need to do? That's quite hard though, isn't it? If you've got a kid kicking off in your class and you've got 29 other kids to teach as well and maybe they've got your back up because, I mean, regardless of what might have caused that, that's hard, no? How do you do that? It's completely hard, but this isn't just you drop a trauma-informed approach onto a class. Go. It's embedded through our culture and how we talk to children, how we greet children. If we see that child struggling in a lesson, the teacher won't berate them and shout at them. They will go over and go, James, I can see you're struggling today, okay? Maybe you're struggling with the work. Is that right? It's that inquisitive approach. I'm curious about what's going on here and would you know what? We're going to do this together and it might be they need to come and sit with you as a teacher, but that's not a punishment. It's me saying to you and to the child, I care about your learning. I want you to do well and I'm going to help you here. We're in this together. It's just compassion. It's care. Knowing that these kids, you might not know half of what's going on in their lives, but we can still be there for them. So to kind of extrapolate from that then, if a trauma-informed approach where we're kind of curious about challenging behaviour we might see is really about caring, does that mean that the kind of the more traditional approach that perhaps is what we might see more in the directive down from DFE and so on? Is that not caring? I think each school has to make its own decisions about what they think is in the best interest of their children. If they have the knowledge of being trauma-informed, if they understand the difficulties these children have at a deeper level, so they've got the knowledge and then they make those decisions, then I would say they're informed decisions. However, what worries me is that some of those decisions have been made without the knowledge of the impact of trauma on children and therefore those decisions are based on wrong information. And could they be traumatising in themselves, those things that we end up doing? Absolutely. If you think about the whole names on boards and stars on the board and stuff like that, it's just shame-based approaches and people do them in best interest. They're thinking, you know, this is what I'll do, but this is what we've always done. But actually if you go back and unpick them and go, well, what does that say to that child that's never hungry? What does it say to the child that's always on red? Does it actually work as an approach or is it you trying to control the situation? And do you, when you kind of look back, because presumably this has been something of a journey for your school and I'm sure that you're still learning, we all are all the time, but do you look back earlier in time and think, gosh, I wish we wouldn't have done things that way? Absolutely. Completely. You know, going back to, I remember probably about eight, nine years ago now, we sent some of our six children on a particular trip. Only those that had got certain behaviour. It's like, oh, you're just, you're just, you're just heading your hands. But as I say, when I do my training to schools, you can only go from what you know. Yeah. You can only go from where you are now. You have to forgive, and I say this to parents as well, you have to forgive yourself for things that you've done in the past. Okay, if you now know they weren't the right thing, because we're all on that journey, we're all learning, and as long as we're continuing to do the best that we can, then that's good enough. And I think that is a really important thing, isn't it? Because I think sometimes otherwise we can end up, you know, somebody listening in might be earlier on in this journey and they might look to you and your school as an example and just feel, well, we're a million miles from that, and how do we do this? And we're getting it wrong and I'll be harming the children. And I guess every journey starts with a single step, right? Yeah, absolutely. One of the biggest steps that we had probably going back many, many years now is the taking away of those behaviour boards where the children had their names and moved up and down. I think people felt that, well, what else is there? If we don't have that, what do we have? And it is about the relationships. It's about a child who's struggling. It's about that conversation with them. Or you keep them at the end of the lessons. Did you notice that was really tricky for you today, that lesson? And that's what people need. It's about connection. It's that whole analogies and connection before correction. If we haven't got a relationship with someone, there's no way you're going to be able to change and support their behaviour. If you don't have a relationship with them, they're just going to be looking at you and going up yours internally anyway, at least. That was my polite response. Did your staff quite willingly come on this journey? Presumably now you're at a point where you recruit staff who've got a similar mindset, but you must have started with a mixture. Yeah, absolutely. I think I've always led with some care and compassion with the children. I've always tried to do strong relationships and just be nice. Just be a nice person. Yeah, we had staff in the past that didn't get it. And even with the support, the training, the coaching, the mentoring, just because of their own potential issues and their own headspace, weren't able to adapt enough. And at that point, in the best interest of a school, they need to move on. Because ultimately it's the children that have to be the priority there. But you're right, I recruit now only those people that have got that in their general psyche. And I would tease that out very carefully in interviews. How? Through the questioning, through the challenging. When you ask a question about your approach to behaviour in the classroom, usually the stock answer is around the policy, the school policy. So you dig deep. Well, what do you feel? What would you do in these circumstances? Watch your natural style. And you tease it out. You can get that from an interview with some careful questioning. Do you think you pick it up quite quickly now, whether someone's going to be a kind of good cultural fit? Yeah. Certainly, by halfway through the interview, you've got a sense whether this person is matched to your sort of way of thinking. And you're also a Timpson Attachment Aware School, right? What does that mean? Yeah, a few years ago. We had a Timpson Trust who does a lot of the trauma-informed schoolwork and attachment awareness. They just recognised our school for doing the work that we do. And just gave us an award ceremony for the attachment research community that takes place in the West Midlands and beyond. Oh, that's really cool. How did that feel? It's always lovely to get stuff like that. And one of the things that I don't do as a school is go out for awards and quality marks and all that. Only where it's going to help leadership in terms of their development. So it was nice to get a bit of recognition. And it means that the messages that I can give in my training has got a bit more back in that this has been recognised, that this is an approach that works by being a national campaign. And it's nice that they did recognise what you were doing. Did you feel that it was... See, sometimes when I talk to people who've been recognised for what they're doing, there's almost that kind of slight feeling of imposter syndrome. Because I think sometimes... Yeah. Yeah, you feel like the more that you know, the more you realise that you're still on a journey, isn't it? Oh, completely. Completely. You know, what am I? I'm now into sort of 13 years of headship and I still regularly get imposter syndrome. You know, it's because you're constantly learning and I think the best sort of people, teachers, leaders of those keep reflecting on what they're doing. Is this right? What does it mean for the child? What does it mean for the members of staff and the parents in the community? And that's key, I think, to keep learning and keep reflecting. I think that's really important. And I think it is one of the things that enables us to do a good job, but it also is difficult if you're always challenging yourself like that. You don't ever just want to go, yeah, we're doing all right. Yeah, no, my headspace is very busy. I have a very busy head. And I think that's what keeps me going a lot of the time. Yeah. I can imagine that would be a, yeah, would be a key driver. I can definitely empathize with that. The imposter syndrome thing, I'm wondering about that in the context of the current situation, because it's something I've been having a lot of conversations with people about it at the moment and how much people have got that, you know, that back to school in September feeling when everyone gets a bit of imposter syndrome about returning to the chalk face. But right now it feels like that magnified because none of us know what we're doing, do we? Like the future is so uncertain. We're all having to learn how to do new things. We're having to teach in different ways. And yeah, we don't know the answers. And that's really tough, right? And I wondered about how, yeah, what your reflections were on that and what, how you adapt that in terms of your sort of trauma informed approach and stuff. There's a question in there somewhere Stuart, go for it. There is, there is. Yeah. The back to school for this September is going to be the most challenging that we've ever faced. And having a trauma informed hat on means that we have to do significantly different things. Yeah. Because we know that we're going to have a range of children coming back. Those that I've loved, I love being at home, you know, those that have loved being at home that want to come back to school and will continue to love being at school. And those that haven't had a great time, those that have learned nothing, those have learned lots, you know, through a whole range. And so what we're doing very carefully, we've completely changed our weekly timetable for September. Okay. So every day starts with either some circle time or social time, because that's going to be critical to start with giving children space and time. What age are your children? Three to 11. Three to 11. Okay, right. Nursery tier six. Okay. We're ensuring that all lessons to start with are very short. Okay. How short? We're sort of 30 minutes maximum, we're saying, for across the school, but obviously for the early years, it's going to be five, 10 minutes, you know, for the introductions. But, you know, even for the juniors, 30 minutes maximum. Okay. And then there's a break or there's some sensory activity or another sort of up and down activity. Yeah. A little break. And a lot more outdoor time with guaranteeing an outdoor activity daily. So not just a couple of PE lessons, whether that's extended breaks, going for a bike ride, going for a walk, doing some outdoor adventure activities, teamwork or PE. So that's a daily outdoor activities for the children as well. Right. Before and after dinner, before and after break, there's a transitional activity. Yeah. So, you know, after dinner, they're coming and do, there'll be some music or there'll be a headspace activity or a mindfulness activity. And that's daily because we have to watch those transitions very, very carefully. Because that's where a lot of our children will win struggle. And how do you make that work? Because presumably, I mean, is this that your kids have had practice at doing these kinds of activities? Or are you introducing them now? Yeah. There's been certainly been some of those activities that we've done. But there'll be a lot more of those. So we're training staff in September on those type of activities. Okay. So that they've got an armory, a bit of a tall kit of things they can do. We're starting, we've got a couple of days back in the first week, sort of just settling in. And then the whole week after is going to be a well-being week. So there's going to be a whole focus on well-being for the children for a whole week. Oh, wow. And then there's going to be a well-being every week then for the half-term. Wow. And how did you go about putting together your ideas for the return and how it was going to work? Was that a joint process among staff? Or did you come up with it mainly yourself? Yeah, no. We've asked all staff. We've also asked the key two members of staff that work on our curriculum for us, two classrooms-based teachers, along with the leadership team. And we're saying, you know, what do we think the issues are going to be for our children? What do you think they might need more? What does that curriculum need to look like? What does the week-day need to look like? And we've just put all those ideas into a pot and we've come up with, like, example, weekly plans and timetables and what it might look like for teachers in the classroom. And have you involved the kids at all or not at this point? Not at this point, no. We are planning to do a child survey in the first few weeks that they're back, asking them about their experiences, how they're currently feeling about school. And the idea is to do that regularly so that we can pick up those children who we might not typically know are on our radar. Yeah. And that's one thing I'm wondering about. I'm kind of curious about how do we know what need we're going to be met with? Because for lots of these kids, we've been really quite out of touch for a little while now. And I think people are reporting a range of things, aren't they? Some people are saying kids who are really struggling are actually really thriving at home. Yeah, yeah. Then there are others where there's new need that we maybe don't know about. What's your... I mean, how are you going to manage that? Yeah, I think the key thing is knowledge, isn't it? It's finding out. So we've got our pastoral team, so I've got my learning mentors, my assistant head, my family support worker. We've been making phone calls throughout the whole of lockdown weekly, and some of them daily, to our key families. Yeah. We've also had a system where we can identify any family that have gone dark so they're not engaging in any online learning or not responding to any messages. And that triggers a phone call as well. Okay. So we know generally, which are our key families that I've struggled. Yeah. But in August, my pastoral team are currently coming up with an online questionnaire for parents. So in August, they will fill that questionnaire in saying, how is your child now? How are they thinking about coming back to school? Yeah. What has been the main challenges for them? And we basically do like a rad rating for different needs. And they will be given to the teachers in September before the children come back. Yeah. And we'll have some information about which children we think might need some additional work. And then the learning mentors and the teams will pick up those children very, very quickly. I see. So you're using the approach that you described was your kind of, that's your universal sort of offer if you like, but you will still have your specific additional provision and expansion. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The trauma reform practice as a school, is a universal offer to all children. Because it's just nice, it's the right thing to do. And then you've got additional needs then. Yeah. Which is, you know, those kids have struggled or they don't want to come back to school or they've had bereavements. And then you obviously get your complex and significant where we're going to have, you know, lots and lots of one-to-one mentoring work or additional agencies coming into support. And how is this all going to work? I mean, maybe you don't know the detail on this yet. I think we're all figuring it out, aren't we? But how is this going to work like logistically and stuff like, what's your school going to look like and who's going to be leading this? Because, yeah, so many questions there, really. But, you know, everybody's going to need to know how to do all the things, right? Absolutely. Logistically, you know, operationally, this is a nightmare in terms of the guidance, in terms of trying to get the children into different places at different times without crossing and all that type of thing. So we just keep, we're just working on that. I'm meeting straight after this where we're sort of doing the dinner time tables and the movement. And, you know, it's very operational, which is, it needs doing, but it's not my preferred use of my time. Although I think it is really important because at the moment, I don't know, I'm having a lot of conversations with people about the things we can control and the things that are beyond our control. And actually, these things that you're meeting about, they're boring, but they are the things we can control, right? And they're the things that we can tell the kids, this is how it works. These are the rules right now, and this is our consistency. Absolutely. And I think for a lot of children, that structure and routine is critical in terms of the return because it helps them feel safe. They know what's going on. They don't need to use as much headspace in terms of knowing where they need to be because it's the same and it's routine. So, yes, it's getting as tight as possible in terms of the organisation, but it won't feel like it to the children. They will just be guided at the right time to the right place. They won't see the complexities of the London Underground how things can change and move, but it will just work, but we've got to get that right. I love that you're like, it will just work. Haven't figured it out yet. It will work. It will. I have every faith it will work. Tell me about new starters and what is, you know, in normal times, if there's ever such a thing, what your new starter kind of processes for kids and families and how you kind of bring them in, but then also what's that going to look like for your September starters this year who won't have had the normal transition? Absolutely. The transition is just so difficult at this stage. You've got the new nursery starters, new reception starters. You've got the year six going to year seven, that transition as well. So, I'll start with the year six to seven. So, my inclusion leader, one of my assistant heads, she's been liaising really, really carefully during lockdown with the secondary schools. She's arranged Zoom meetings with the secondary schools with our children. Yeah. So, lots of work and conversations and questions. Children always have the questions that they just need answering. Yeah. So, it's giving them that opportunity, like, what questions have you got? Right, we'll find the answers for you. That's what we're doing with year six. Nursery and reception has been a bit more of a challenge because normally we would invite them in, we would do the welcome meetings, but we have Zoom, we have this. Yeah. So, you know, we're doing the same meeting I would have normally done in the hall with the parents. We're doing it over Zoom. Okay. You know, we're doing the presentation, we're doing the question and answers. So, that's okay. The nursery and reception teachers are doing one-to-one Zoom sessions with the individual parents and children so they get to see them. We've put together a video about what the setting looks like we're reading them a story. So, they get to see the teacher reading the story, we're sending them the video. So, lots of things like that. And then it's when they start in September, it's about that staggered start. You know, when they're ready to stay longer, they stay longer. Yeah. They're not quite ready, we're not going to force it. You know, it's that relaxed approach. And is your prediction that children will be more or less school ready than usual this year? I don't think there's one answer there because I think it depends on the individual child. I think from the 90-odd kids that we've got back at the moment, they're loving it. They're glad to be back. Even though it's different, the classroom's different and the learning's a bit different, they're glad to be in school. So, I think because of the type of school we are, I think the overwhelming majority are going to rush into school in September. They're going to want to connect back with us and tell us everything that's been going on and whether that's good, bad, and different. You know, they will want to tell us, just because that's the type of school that we have. We've just got to be ready. We've just got to be ready for those ones that are school refusing, for those that are going to struggle being in the classroom for that period of time. But we know that that's going to be the issues. So, I think if you're prepared for it and you've thought about as many different scenarios you can and then go, right, if this happens, what are we going to do? Okay, because then teachers aren't going to have what do I do if this is facing me in the classroom? They're going to know what to do. So, you're doing a huge amount of kind of planning and preparation for September. I'm wondering, so you're a trauma-informed school and this seems amazing for the children and they're delighted to be there. And it must be, I'm sure in so many ways, a really lovely place to work, but it does sound like a lot of work. I mean, what does this mean for your staff and what's their wellbeing like? And does the trauma-informed approach extend to kind of them and their wellbeing too? I think staff wellbeing is critical because if staff aren't regulated, if staff aren't in a good place, that's just going to translate to 30 children in the glass and that's not going to end well. So, we have a very, very clear open door communication with me. They can want to talk to me directly, but we have a structure where they've always got somebody that they can talk to. And that includes a mental health first aider for staff and we've got a wellbeing member of staff as well who keeps us all jolly and is always there sending little messages out to making sure staff know they can go to somebody. We've got the Headspace app, for example, for all members of staff. So, they've got some sort of mindfulness and meditation for themselves and we're organising group, not group therapy, group supervision staff. Oh, you are, okay. I've got that. Why are you doing that? Because... First of all, for anyone who doesn't know. Yeah, so supervision is a way we get an external person, it can be an internal person, but we're going for an external person who is there to listen, to talk to staff, for them to be able to confidently talk about any issues that are going on for them and for that person, the person doing the supervision to sort of tease out what the issues might be and for that person to come up with some of the solutions themselves. So, we do supervision for our safeguarding leads. This will be extended now to group supervision for the year groups or phases and then if anybody wants individual supervision, then that will be also available to them. And you're investing in someone external coming in and doing that. So, you've made an active decision. This is something you're going to prioritise in your budget. Yeah. Why did you do that? Because if you can't look after your staff, it will impact on your children. And ultimately, if it's not happy in the classroom, that's going to cause more behaviour issues, lack of learning, lack of results. You know, it just starts off a whole tumbleweed of issues if you don't have staff in the right place. Yeah. So, it's an investment. The sausage sandwich always goes down well as well. Yeah, I have to say, of all the training I deliver, it's something which has either like scones or bacon butties or something along those lines. Usually those sessions go better and it's nothing to do with my training. It's sausage sandwiches, definitely. Sausage sandwiches are great. I'll come train in your school if there's sausage sandwiches. So, okay. So, your staff has supported through the supervision and in terms of moving up from supervision for just a few members of staff to then looking to roll that out more widely, is that because you saw success from the individual supervision or is this just a kind of natural direction you were going in? I think there is a requirement really for supervision for safeguarding leads. Yeah. And I think that recognises that they're dealing with very difficult situations. Yeah. Now, we'll translate this to September. All members of staff are going to be dealing with difficult situations and therefore they need to have an outlet. You know, and you've got to remember some members of staff will have a partner who's really good at listening. Some members of staff will live on their own or will not be able to have that sort of conversation outside of the workplace. So, you know, I think we've got a duty of care for the staff to make sure there's something in place for them. I see. So, it's a response specifically really to the situation. Do you think you would continue with it beyond? I think it would be assessing the benefit of it for the individual members of staff. So, if staff, when we get feedback from it, say, you know, this is really useful as a general teaching career, you know, the pressures of teaching, can we carry it on? Then we'll look into that, definitely. How will you measure the impact of it? Like, you know, if I spoke to you in 12 months time and said, Stuart, you invested X amount of your budget into supervision 12 months ago, has it been a worthwhile investment? What would you be telling me? How would you show me that it was worthwhile? I think there's a couple of things. There's the staff well-being checks, well-being surveys. You know, we've done those in the past. Just how are things going for you? How is communication in the school? How is, you know, work-life balance? All that. And well-being is always one of those questions. Yeah. But you could also look at things like staff absence, sickness rates, you know, all those type of measures as well if you wanted to explore it a little bit more. And I can't have this whole conversation with you without going and thinking a little bit about Ofsted. So I work with lots of schools who aspire to be more like a school like yours. And often one of the things that they say is, you know, well, it feels like the right thing to do. And particularly right now, while we're thinking about our response to the pandemic, we want to take this much more nurturing and caring approach and it's the right thing to do for the children. But are we going to get our knuckles wrapped X months down the line by Ofsted when they say, why are you doing this? I mean, what's Ofsted take on what you're doing? Because you've been doing it a while. Yeah, well, going back sort of nine, 10 years, we were required improvement as a school, you know, and that was part of the journey where we'd started doing a lot of this work. And then at the next inspection, we were good overall with outstanding leadership and management and outstanding behavior and safety. What time period was between those two judgments? Two years. Crikey. That's impressive. Yeah. And was it like, you know, was that a judgment? Did you feel that both of those judgments were fair reflections of where the school was at the time? I think the required improvement one was at the time was we felt hard done by. But I think that's a natural response to criticism. And on reflection? On reflection, when you look back now, it was probably one of the best things that could have happened because it gave us a kickstart to do some things we wanted to do and make changes we needed to make. So, yeah. And we had another inspection last year. And again, very, very strong. The same sort of comments. The caring approach came out very strong in our report. And, you know, it's down to the children. Said they always had somebody to go to if they needed to talk. Wow. It's things like that that are just critical to us. So, Ofsted are not only, if I'm interpreting what you're saying, they're not only not having an issue with what you're doing, but they're actually picking it out as a real strength. Absolutely. Because it is a strength. And I think that's the thing. This isn't some sort of, you know, quirky. That's just an idea. This is based in neuroscience. You know, trauma is there. We can't deny that this is in place. We can't deny the issues that happens as a result of this. So, yes, it works because it's the right thing to do. It's just a nicer place to be. If you're working in a school and being educated in a school where the staff talk to you nicely, care for you, pick up when you're feeling wobbly, nurture you, then what's to argue with that? Yeah. We sell it pretty persuasively. So, people at the moment, I mean, obviously this moment in time is a massive cause for reflection for many people. And I think that there will be many leaders and more general school staff out there who are thinking, actually, maybe this is the time to make a bit of a change. And maybe they are doing a little bit of some of the things you've mentioned already, or maybe they're not, but they might think that this might help them and their community as we look to, you know, more widely reopen in September. If someone's kind of, you know, they're ready for that change, where do you start? Like what are the first things you need to do? What do you need to think about? Like how do you get going on that journey? What did you do to start with them? The knowledge, that was the biggest thing. You know, understanding why children behave in certain ways and what's underlying that. And once you have that knowledge, you go, okay, I see why they did that. Right, now how am I going to help them? Yeah. How am I going to control them or punish them? Or, you know, how am I going to help them with this situation? And I think that's the starting point for anyone. Learn about trauma. Learn about disassociation. Learn about attachment. Learn about sensory processing, dysregulation, you know, all of the key things to do with developmental trauma and the impact. Once you know that, you then think, okay, what do I now need to do? How does my practice need to change? How do I need to change when I'm talking to that child? Because it isn't about I need to win as the adult because I'm in control. This is a long game. This isn't about quick fixes for children. This is about making sure that when they're an adult, you've done everything you can to make sure they can function really well and have the tool kits available to cope with life. And so that's quite a big ask, isn't it? Learn all the things and then do them. Do you have any, you obviously go out and you train on this. Do you have specific recommendations of good, what would you recommend? If someone needs to go and buy a book or access a website or go to some, where would they start? There's so many. You've got Daniel Hughes, Daniel Seagill, Sally Donovan, loads of authors like this that have got really good trauma-informed. Adoption UK books are really good. The Trauma-Informed Schools book, that's a great little read. Just choose a book about trauma-informed schools that's been published in the last few years or it's got highly recommended. Just read it. Sorry, I love the power of showing up, which is really aimed at parents, isn't it? But I think that's one of the most basic but really easy to apply frameworks that I've read for a really long time. That's Daniel Seagill, isn't it? Yeah. And I think if you really just want a very, very quick read, go into any Timson shops, they do the little books of attachment that are free of charge. You walk in and you get it. Get your keys cut while you're there. And it's a great little read. It'll take you five minutes to read. Some of the key principles, you go, ah, okay. So, okay. So you don't need like a PhD at all? No, no, no, no. Absolutely not. When you can talk about the amygdala and all the different parts of the brain and the hippocampus can calm you and the amygdala and the fires. And that's interesting, but you don't need to know that. It helps, I think, because you realize it's actually in the body that's having these reactions. But just choose a book, read it. You've got to start somewhere. You either do an online training course. Yeah. I know, I think adoption UK. Do unpack UK. Do an online attachment training course. She's only at a few quid. Or get your school, if it's a school, trained at least have a day where it's a starting point. That does not mean you have a training day or good your trauma informed. I think some people think that, oh, yes, we've had the training. That's just one element of the longer game. But you've got to start somewhere, get the information, get the knowledge. I think when it comes to training, sometimes we think that, you know, we can turn up and we can do a day of training and then we're done. And I feel, actually, with a lot of this kind of practice that you're talking about here, that's exactly the wrong approach. And you might need it to kickstart stuff, but for me often I think that, you know, literally five minutes here of feeding, isn't it? So I think the, I don't know, maybe you disagree with this, but I think it's about getting the chance to practice it and see how it works. Oh, yeah, yeah. You've got to practice it. It's got to be, it's got to change your heart and mind to start with. And then you've got to build on that. You need that initial, oh, that's why this child's like this. Oh, that's just that's a child in my class. You do. And it's those little changes and I say it in the training, right, what is it you're now going to do different for that child in your class? Make a difference to them today, tomorrow, this week. And it's through those little changes, then you get a massive change within your school. Yeah, so it's lots of, it's not about just changing the policy, actually it's about lots and lots and lots of tiny things. I was looking, you know, we're time poor. Like, you know, if someone said, look, I want to do this, I want to get started. I'm not quite sure where to start. I've only got so much time I can spend on it. What are my priorities? Where would you start? What, you know, policies, training. Big question. You can't start with policies. Because the danger is if somebody with the knowledge puts the policies in and then the staff don't understand then it won't be implemented. It will fall flat. So I think it's some basic knowledge. And I think this is a great opportunity to do it. Staff will have most of that knowledge in their own heads. So one of the things that we're going to do is part of our inset in September is say to staff, okay, what potential issues might we find our children having when they come back? Just allow that conversation. Because you'll realise then, suddenly the page full of potential issues. Yeah. And just by giving time to reflect on that then it's going into your cycle. Okay. We might have issues. So how are we going to deal with these? Let's take one at a time. What might this look like for the child? And what might our response be when we get that situation? It's just small bits, you know, a child struggling to sit still in the class because they've not had to sit still for the next. What do we need to do? Well, let's make it so they don't have to. So let's keep the sessions short. But if we see them fidgeting, then either as a whole class, we stop and have a break. Yeah. Or that child, we get them to go and do a job, we move around. Oh, James, can you just come and give these books out for me? You know, knowing that the different tolerances for the need for movement, for example, just as one thing will be different across the whole class. Yeah. Every child would have a different sensory profile and you've got to be picking up on those. It's a lot, isn't it? It's a lot to... This is what teachers do. This is what they're trained to do in terms of managing classrooms. If you've got the mindset that every child needs to be the same, then you're going to have a struggle as a teacher. If you look at... You do individual needs for maths, for phonics, for every other aspect of learning. So we just have to see this as another element of learning. Yeah, I see. And so, actually, you're kind of talking to really just a more intuitive... Actually trusting ourselves a little bit more, maybe, to take a more kind of care-based approach to all that we're doing in the classroom. Absolutely, but that becomes... That's a leadership thing as well, though, because you need to make sure your staff know they can do those things. The worst thing you can have is staffing... No, I've got to get through this work. I've got to do 40 minutes Yeah, and that's hard, isn't it? And also, what about all the stuff around... the restrictions around touch and that sort of thing at the moment? Particularly, I mean, it's always a bit of a challenge, isn't it, with safeguarding and things, but what are your kind of thoughts on that? Well, from September, it's pretty much within your bubble, it's pretty much back to normal for the children. The guidance is still saying staff where they can, should try to stay away. But I mean, obviously in the last few weeks, staff are gradually then getting closer and closer to those children, the hugs are starting to get a bit coming back. You know, it's a challenge, it's difficult, but we're lucky where we are at the moment in Birmingham, the transmission rate is really low at the moment. But I think where it spikes again, then it's going to be more difficult, we'll have to put more restrictions back in place. So I guess it's like everything, isn't it? We're just trying to take calculated risks and actually the children's well-being and making sure that they're going to grow into strong little people is maybe the more important thing. But I think we've just got to make sure that the back to school is as fun as it can be. So it's not high pressure, it's not high stakes. That's got to come from the top, hasn't it? Oh, absolutely. I've been doing Zoom lessons every week with the children. Every year group has been having a Zoom lesson from me. It's really fun. I want to see them laugh. I don't want to see them like this. It's on giggles. It's good. How do you make them laugh? I'll just tell them jokes. Do you talk to them about penguins? What is your thing with penguins? I just absolutely adore penguins. I just think they're the most... I love penguins. I travel around the country seeing as many penguins as I can. I just love them. That's a whole other podcast, isn't it? It completely is. I have one more question from me and then we're going to do our quickfire Q&A from the millions of people who sent stuff in. My last question was about if someone's listening to this, so much of what you said, it's really evident that a trauma-informed approach has got to be led from the top. What if I'm listening to this podcast and I'm a school nurse or a teaching assistant and the responsibilities in terms of leadership? Can I make a difference? Absolutely. You can make a difference to the children that you work with directly. The ACES movement is very clear that having one strong connected adult in that children's life can make the difference for that child. If you're working with those key children, even if the school isn't trauma-informed and doing some of the right things, you can still make a huge difference for that child. We know that when you look at celebrities that have been reflected on their time, they will always go back to that one teacher that showed them care, compassion, time. That's what we can give to the children that need it and that's what you can do. Anyone in a school can do that whether that's a support assistant, a nurse, a secretary, anyone that can do that. If one found oneself in that position where you felt like you want to do this and you want to make this difference but you're in a school where that doesn't feel like the general culture in ethos, do you think that it's better? Would you recommend that person stays in that school and tries to impact on the children that's within their reach to impact on? Or would they have more impact by actually saying maybe this isn't the right fit for me culturally and I should move somewhere like your school where I'll be more well-received? I think if you can instigate change brilliant. If you can get an ally on the senior leadership team even if it's I've read this really useful article and I wondered if you might want to read it if you can influence some change, brilliant. Do it. I think if it's directly affecting your own well-being as an adult because they don't get it and I'm trying to do this and they just don't get it and it's maybe time to move on because you've got to look after yourself as well. Yeah, and I think that's a really important thing to remember, isn't it? We can and I think particularly the sorts of people who really, really care often that care is all about the children and not enough about ourselves and actually we matter as well, don't we? Okay, we've got loads of questions so we're going to go, we'll do these fairly quick fire and you've got all the answers of course, right? Let's see, shall we? Okay, so, how can we support children who were a lot happier at home than they've ever been at school? Oh, absolutely. I think the key thing on there is why were they not happy in school in the first place? There's two parts to that question. They might be happier at home but were they also happy at school? Okay. If they weren't happy in school then the issue was already there. So what was the issue in school? Was it relationships? Was it friendships? Was it special needs? What is it? So I think it's about making sure that return to school is as stress-free and relaxed and fun as possible while keeping the structure there because that's what's going to be needed if you've got one that. Yeah, that is a tricky one, isn't it? But it comes back to what you've said a couple of times and you're curious, really, isn't it? Why? Why? And let's pick it up. What kinds of activities would you suggest to ease the transition back into school for very anxious pupils or those with previous trauma experience? I think the transition starts way before September. It starts with conversations and connections now. What are you looking forward to? What are you worried about? Doing that whole... of 1 to 10. So, you know, how are you feeling about the first day on a scale of 1 to 10? You know, where one's... horrible 10s great or whichever way around you want to do it? Okay, if you're saying it's a 7 where that's quite a wobble, it was quite worrying, what would help make it to 5? What would make it go down? Well, actually, I don't know whether my friend's going to be there. Okay, right, let's find that out. Can I still bring my water bottle? Yeah, okay, right, okay. Okay, now how do you feel? 5? Okay, it's still a bit high. It's that conversation. It's giving them time and space to identify their worries and work through them. And I think you mentioned before, didn't you, that we need to find out from the children what their actual worries are, because we can guess and we can have a bit of an idea about some of those kind of themes, but it will be those little things are the things that often really prey on little minds and then they're the really big things, right? And we can often quite easily help them work their way around that, can't we? Absolutely, and it's those worries that belong to them, that are their worries, it's worries that are broader than them, that are other people's worries. Things like the huge back of worries, the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can use resources clearly now and over the summer, we've got our family support worker and inclusion team and our helpline number all in operation over the summer holidays. So people can still get in touch with us. That's amazing. Are you guys getting a break? Yeah, we're staggering it and we're making sure people are still getting a break, but there's a few key people that will still be working over the summer too. Will you get a break? I will make sure I get a break, but I will be still, I find it very hard to switch off anyway, but there will definitely be times where I do switch off. It's hard though, that, isn't it? See, I find myself talking a lot to my team after their own well-being and have downtime and that's often an email I've sent at half past four in the morning and we need to lead it a little bit as well, live it as well as just, yeah. I think it depends on what, you know, my brain is a very busy brain and my, you know, sometimes doing stuff is actually better than not doing stuff. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And these are like really unusual times, I think as well. It's just that they're unusual times and it's been going on quite a long time as well and it's balancing that, isn't it? It's tough. How to support a child who has become looked after so for anyone international that's gone into foster care probably during lockdown who has not accessed school at all due to the distance getting them to school? I think this is going to be a key thing in terms of safeguarding and, you know, there will be unfortunately some children that have gone into care at this point. So, you know, if you leave it to day three, then potentially they're going to have exploded or gone really, really into themselves. Yeah. You know, if you see kids disassociating and, you know, shutting down, then we've got to be on to that. So they would be, they'll be phone calls over the summer, they'll be phone calls the day before, you know, they would be meeting them on the gate, you know, they would be meeting them on the gate in the morning, bringing them straight in if they wanted to talk before going into class. Yeah. Lots of opportunities. So lots of really careful planning, I guess. Really careful planning. And then I guess this one leads on from that a little bit. So how do we, an outside agency supporting children and families help you, the school, ensure children and young people are ready to return in September? What do you need from us over the summer? And what sort of agency it is, really. I mean, if it's an agency that's currently working with those children, you know, I'd want them to keep connecting with them, you know, however, if it's every month or whatever it might be. So those children know that these people are still there, because, you know, if they have built connections with them and then they suddenly haven't heard from them for three months, you know, you don't know what that child is thinking. Have they had it? Are they still alive? Are they still working? You know, and those thoughts can consume a child. And we might not know those thoughts unless we're asking them. So, yeah, I'd just say keep the connection going for schools, any resources, any little tidbits of reading, any book recommendations, classroom activities, all of those things are going to help. And some agencies might be in a position to kind of alert the school to children who are, of course, concerned. He might not previously have been, presumably. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, if there's any sort of agencies that are working with families that we don't know about, you know, I would, you know, as a matter of course, expect them to have been in touch and to explain the situation. Okay. Should behaviour policies change to reflect the anxiety some children may be feeling? I would hope the behaviour policy was already doing that. That would be my ideal. But, yeah, if it doesn't, if it doesn't also reflect that children will have difficulties anyway and you'll have to have certain individual approaches to certain children, then it should as a matter of course. So, it may need some, you know, tweaks regarding, you know, the COVID specific elements, you know, not washing hands, coughing, touching that type of element. But for me, it still comes back to the original outcome. If they're doing that, what's going on? Yeah, and I think, you know, you've talked really clearly about the policy it matters, but what matters more is the practice, isn't it? So, what should or could we expect schools to offer across the summer to prepare children and young people to return slightly more tricky question. Has the government funding actually made any difference? Government funding, okay. We don't know how much we're getting. Okay. So, there's this whole thing about this extra catch-up funding and things. I still don't know how much we're getting. So, the guidance last week suggested that we could use the money for summer activities. So, what does that mean? We could do clubs and activities, well-being activities over the summer if you wanted to legitimate use of this money. But we don't know how much we're getting yet. Okay. And how will they target how it's spent and stuff? Yeah. No idea. We've not got any detail on that as yet. It would be useful to know because it gives us a sense on can we afford to bring in an extra support worker or an extra mentor to, you know, to divvy up the case load a little bit in September. We don't know. It's been passed on to, for us it's been passed on to the local authority and we're just waiting on news on how much it is and when we're going to get it. What would you like to be doing? What would you use a bit of extra cash for over the summer that would have a big impact? Over the summer, nothing more than what we were doing, which is checking in with our key families for the summer because the children need a break. The reason we're doing a parents' evening the week after next outside, you know, social distance and all that, but we're giving all the children and parents a chance to one-to-one with their current teachers to end the year. Oh, great. And that is crucial because this is just it's just all blurred, half-term blurred, Easter blurred and if we're in danger of the summer holidays becoming a blur as well and some people carrying on with home learning and all that, you know, we need that distinctive mark for the children. This is the end of the year. This is our goodbyes for this year and in September you'll start with your new teacher and for us, that was the goodbyes is critical. Do you think a legitimate use of some money over the summer would be you talked about how much you think your kids need to laugh right now, like could you I don't know, use it to make them happy? I don't know, that sounds like a big it is. It's a challenge, isn't it? And I think I'm hoping that the summer holidays the children will be able to get out more and do more normal stuff. I think it's tricky. I think it's going to be mainly picking up in September for us anyway. I don't think the benefit for over the summer will do any more than what we're currently doing. No, but it's that kind of family outreach work really that's going to be crucial. Family support worker will continue working over the summer. And that's the thing, family support workers in the schools that I work with, often they are just absolutely golden members of your team aren't they? They make such a difference. We do a last couple I'm really aware of time and you've got to go work out how on earth you're going to make your school work. How can schools support staff well-being? Their self-care should be a priority to enable them to support young people and their families. You probably already talked this a little bit, but what would be your, you know, if you're going to do one thing. Take the pressure off in terms of what you're asking them to do. So, you know, but that's general as well. So think about what planning you're asking for. You know, what are you asking them to submit? What are you asking them to write? What are you asking them to plan? Give them as many resources as you can to support their delivery. I think to be honest the whole lockdown has given us an opportunity to think about how we do deliver and teach because there's suddenly all of this online delivery national stuff. That is really good. Yeah. So actually, sometimes in planning it can be, right, we're going to watch a five-minute clip about this topic and I'm now going to facilitate the learning rather than me delivering planning, doing the presentation. It's a lot that's just done now. So why not use that and say it's okay to use that because it's good stuff. You know, we don't ask for weekly plans to be given. They plan on their presentations and they deliver it. That's the planning. You know, it's stuff that schools can do. Just take the pressure and the account. You're taking that radical step of actually trusting your practitioners to be able to do their jobs. Goodness me, the amount of amazing creative stuff that I've seen in the home learning from my staff over the past three months, it's fantastic and it's just embedded the fact that you've got to trust your practitioners. They're amazing. Just let them lose, let them do stuff. And that's been a really nice outcome, isn't it? I know that there's been there's been good and bad and there's been real challenge about the current situation but there are some people who've just really flown. I've got a lady coming up in a couple of weeks time who has just done the most amazingly creative ways of approaching work with her kids and they've been creating all their stuff from home and she's obviously just someone who's really creative and the kids have just really gotten bored with it and the family's enjoyed it too and I think she's probably someone that in normal times would have just been kind of quietly getting on with that but because of how things are right now actually it's gained a bit of momentum and lots of people are using it. I'm going to finish with this question. Being a lot of edu twitter criticism of the focus on trauma and schools arguing that we should just return to business as usual. What would you say to them? I think for many children getting back to business as usual would be the best thing for them but there's going to be a significant number of children that is not going to work for. It's like any approach there's not one approach that will suit all children. There are schools that are pretty much going back to normal in September but what are you doing for those that are not going to cope with that if they have got other rooms or other curriculum that those children can do that can't manage then go for it we're going from the other end we're making it more free and focused in terms of small burst for all children and then we'll gradually increase it from that way and we're not saying we're going to do that after a half-term after a week after two weeks we're just seeing how it is week by week okay and reviewing where are we now can this class cope with this can this year group cope with this what do they need next but each school will do it in their own way for some children going back to that normality and as much structure as possible and routine might be the best thing for them. Yeah it's actually being led by the need that's there yeah what thought would you like to leave people with who've listened to this? Listen to the children don't think that the adults have the answers because our minds are very different we don't know the individual experiences of all these children so take time create time to listen be curious and make sure you have a big smile on your face in September and they think that you have missed them dearly and you're so glad they are back because they're going to crave the connection even if they push that away very quickly they're still going to need it Oh I've gone all a bit emotional like that wow I think we end there I'm going to press stop thank you so much it's been an absolute joy having you on today I hope you'll come back Oh no problem at all take care