 I should probably with like start and then we'll pop it off the camera. I'll go back to So apparently doing this for the TV cable. Are you good? Okay, I Make this a lot more casual. Hey, I like demo. Yeah, this is two sides of the same coin. Oh wait I mean you should feel very privileged about the ratio. I love small class sizes. There you go The variables for both great on my treasure of open source matters This is where I ask who here has heard of open source matters But everyone here has heard of open source matters, right? Anyone here not a word of open source matters Which did I know you were talking about? Oh, seriously? Oh, wow. Okay Open source matters is the foundation of the Juma project and then this is the time that the audience goes It's it's the CMS thing um But anyway, that's what you hear the audible gas and I'm like and I make my joke. Yeah, I know how did he get in here? Kick him out blah blah blah. Um, basically I love open source I'm a hoping to post-contributor Usman video game lover former Disney cast member and the further south I get the lesson to port it that sounds I understand that do you want to ask about that last that's the last one? Disney cast me rather. Yeah, I literally just made the joke that the Further south I get the lesson ported that is Those impressive it sounds but you give that in New York or the Midwest. I love you Dog daddy, what are you for bold grid what I do why you do it good award campus? You know what can't be you? Missouri I will go to colleges talk about bold grid teach open source to students and I do it because I love open source So speaking of open source a while like WordPress. I love our community I love how welcoming and inclusive our community is and how everyone's so nice and respectful To our community, but I'm getting a son All kidding aside, I really do love how inclusive WordPress is and I love how we try to welcome all people This talk is licensed WT PFL version 2 if you don't know what it is you can look it up Because a code of conduct. I can't say the full name But for real this talk is licensed as that all of kidding aside so you can do whatever you want to do with that license restrictions Last time we gave this talk I got some good things there was an inspiring talk to MP Mike on a broad of you supporting all open source projects Not just our favorites for you can't Phoenix. That was October 2017 and it was a light grand total of five times I know it's quite viral, but that day also happened to be international internet day and I took this tweet from Ellen DeGeneres that day it was happy national cat day international internet day because I actually gave this talk before This working at Phoenix, but when I saw it was international internet day national cat day I kind of changed the whole purpose of it so With that I look at a quote from Jessica Dunbar in concrete five Conqueror fives another CMS similar to WordPress She said I'm not dating a CMS. I'm in an open source relationship She said this at the merge conference. See something good came out of it and I'll get inside This is what really strikes home because I tell I identify with I self-identified as an open source relationship I think too many times we define ourselves as WordPress people Juma people Drupal people DNM people whatever the case says and I think that's what is hurting the future of open source is our tribalism So what is open source everyone looks at open source, you know this way it's craft. It's small. It's niche It's hippie. It's for us and everything along those lines. But what does that really? Mean everyone thinks open source, you know, is this like small little homebrewed thing, but open source really just means one thing It's free isn't speech. That's all it is Doesn't mean it's no cost. It doesn't mean any of that. It just means you have the freedom free isn't speech Not free isn't beer. That's what open source is. We've all heard that analogy Especially in the Drupal world. They really love beer. So that's they came out of that It's the first time I heard it, but you need to be able to have free speech And that means you can take the code of positive toy extended or get to what you want with it For the terms of your license and that's the most powerful thing Because we love open source. We love open source open source is amazing, but we only love our own source You know how many times I've been at a word camp? In fact, it's happened since I've been working at bold grid I've been told. Oh, you don't belong here Because I happened to have volunteered for the general project. I have been told that a more than one occasion at a word camp Which is silly because you know, my feeling web was a keynote speaker at the general world conference The projects aren't fighting and that's the whole point of this talk is the projects aren't fighting We create these little silos of brand loyalty and saying F you to the other projects Because it makes us feel good Makes us feel like we made the right choice. We want to be on the winning team But that's hurting open source and I'm gonna show that show why Is everyone thinks wordpress is the best yay five stars hearts on my eyes. I love wordpress And I love wordpress too wordpress is great And then people look at other things like Jim a little less. So it's okay. I guess Drupal D&N, you know But everyone kind of looks at all these different things, but here's the secret here's the secret about open source it's that Wordpress is just people It's just people We too many times like to say wordpress is the best and We get really defensive online When people say things about jumbo jumbo or whatever there's so many times when I say hey I also am on the board of Juma some of the treasure Juma that the first thing people say to me is Well, I use Juma once and I don't use it again for this reason this reason this reason wordpress is better because of this It's a different tool It's a tool People can use whatever tool they want We have this weird loyalty and have you noticed in the open source community There's a weird brand loyalty to Apple, which is the pinnacle of closed stores Seriously, how many times do you see a Linux distribution on your it's gonna be a really quick I know this is really hard and what's interesting is it's almost all the same demographics all my demographic I'm sure you've been using too Um That's funny really weird you hardly see anyone with the Linux distribution I mean, yeah, I'm using windows, but you know, it is what it is, but tools are tools. Oh, I think you're gonna make on Linux Yeah, nobody uses a Linux distro as their presentation. Don't be triggered. How many open source? I knew it says well, that's great. I it doesn't happen very often They're all Macbooks. You're right. Yeah, they're all Macbooks and there's like this weird loyalty to that. It's a heckler, but I'm not against a Linux I use Linux too. I'm just stating we don't see it a lot of the open source world Open source people are really tied up in brand loyalty in a way that is unhealthy in a way that's hurting our projects Because tools are tools use WordPress great use WordPress Want to use Drupal? Great use Drupal. Want to use Juma? Great use Juma and there's different use cases Sometimes you might need to work in Magento. I had a client Because guess what they didn't need a very specific thing that was built in the Magento that would have cost six figures to build in To WooCommerce it worked for them because they had a very specific tie-in with a call center and all this other stuff There are times WordPress makes a lot of sense There are times Drupal makes sense and there are CMSs I guarantee you've never even heard of that I'm going to talk about today that have very specific use cases That are really the reasons they exist because WordPress is just people. We're just volunteers We are people all pull in the rope in the same direction because we love WordPress We come from different races, religions, creeds, political viewpoints, and we can still come together at an event like Word of Camps And be nice to each other Imagine that that there are people in this building that have religious disagreements with people's lifestyles, marriages, religions and all this stuff. We come together to WordPress because we think that WordPress is Important and we want to help the project. It means something that it does and that's amazing because you know what? We're never going to make everyone agree on that every viewpoint. That's impossible with people But we can all agree that WordPress is important to us and we want to help the project. The project comes first That's WordPress is just people Jonathan Mann wrote a song That talked about this I like that song but it seems like it's a weird quick ending. It doesn't really go down. I don't look much like people with gravity view, but that seems to be the last time I'm going to show this So that's gonna be Jonathan Mann. That might be a violation, I was kidding Which, I guess what? Jumlas dress people It's just people. Jumlas people and they also have a song and no, I'm not gonna play it I love you Jumla, which is to the tune of hallelujah By Jensen and so it goes on Jumlas people. They also have a song the Jumla song line at Jumla con san francisco by all those people Because guess what open source is people first and that is what's most important. We've had their song first open source is people They ask your question. The first song is the open source song the free software song where we just told them Because open source is It's what is changing the world we have so much ability to push the internet in an amazing direction and We are killing ourselves Due to tribalism We are killing ourselves because word camp. Sorry WordPress should be first WordPress seems to be number one For example when wordpress just hit 30% of cms market share Uh, 30% of the internet I should say Um, a couple weeks ago whatever everybody was freaking out. Well, I can't wait till we hit 60% blah blah blah and all that stuff, you know That's the wrong attitude to have First of all every open source cms is losing market share To the SaaS solutions wakes weirdly score space. It's happening And you know what's hurting it? Our stupid fighting amongst ourselves that doesn't even exist Except for low-level people in the community in the top contributors that want to feel like you're part of a winning team People don't want to feel living the wrong choice. It's not just wordpress. This happens. It happens in every open source project I go to the jumele world conference every conversation is how do we beat wordpress? How do we stop wordpress? That's not conversation to have The conversation is to look at why you exist look at your mission statement and to push the envelope forward for that mission statement The mission statement of wordpress is to democratize publishing The project is doing everything it can and the people leading the project are making the best decisions to push that mission statement Drupal has a different mission statement. Drupal is focused on the enterprise and they are unapologetic about it If I was going to ask you um who think for the Second most popular open source cms of it. Who would say drupal is the second most popular open source cms? Okay You guys happen to know the stats, but normally most people about 80% of the world think drupal is that who thinks jumele is the second most popular Who thinks it's someone else? What do you guys think? Uh wiki media wiki media, uh, we called it open source cms Yeah Yeah, it's a fundamentally different pattern than cms, but I could be wrong. I don't know. Yeah Who are you gonna save it? Um, it's actually jumele. Jumele is the second most popular open source cms try to shoot from this There's so many people here Um Drupal is the third most popular cms, but it doesn't hit camera angles. Yeah, it doesn't mean drupal is better or worse than It's like one of those facebook photos, right? than anyone Any of these other projects because the software comes first And that's what gives me the things like the cms card. Who is here? Who heard of the cms card? No, great. The cms garden is a non-profit very much in the red dress bubble right now I don't know any of these things Yeah, you're in the wordpress bubble That's a bad thing Wordpress is great, but you know what one of the best things you can do Is to go to other projects events Meet people learn what they're doing go to a javascript event go to a php event go to a jQuery event Go to a drupal event go to something else Because we're in our little echo chamber And that's not good for anybody echo chambers for any project isn't helping anybody And guess what these other cms's they make decisions that affect us for example Did you know that jimlin was the first open source cms demand a php7? Demanded it Did that have repercussions on their user base? And backers compatibility and all this yes, it definitely did but They do align on the sandage said we believe php7 for security Is important and that is fundamentally correct It's a good thing to say Does wordpress make a different decision because of its user base? Yes, definitely But other cms's are starting to follow suit and if we're getting hosts to notice That hey jimlin is doing this maybe we should get a php7 support because they mandated it When it wasn't even available and a lot of shared hosts environments And that pushes the industry forward We all use so many different pieces of open source that we don't even respect to realize it Wordpress is a lamp stack linux apache mysql php All open source projects We wouldn't exist if it wasn't open source wordpress itself is a fork. It's a fork We didn't it wasn't created on a scratch, you know matt didn't have an epiphany and created on seven days like god Matt's not god Volunteer just like there are lots of other people in the project. They're just volunteering It's a fork code is coming and it's free speech and that's we need to respect that and we need to look at other projects So cms guarded is an on-profit that what they do is they go to enterprise level events around the world And they have boobs at conferences that cost like 20 or 40 thousand dollars And they're at big enterprise level events and they say hey Don't go to a closed source solution go to an open source solution And they have reps from all the major open source projects and they talk about it Hey, oh, you're doing education. Go check this out. You're doing this go talk to these guys And they're they're all pulling the open source for open the same direction They're not there. It's all of these reps are volunteers from all of these different projects And guess what they don't kill each other Because they care about open source above Their projects is it okay to love wordpress? It's an okay to be pro wordpress. Yes immensely I love wordpress too I love jumele as well. They still was my first open source project. I contributed it was mambo at the time, but we were from there So what are some of the projects? alchemy cms Contego i'm gonna miss pass five of these by the way That one The jango cms That program. Yes. These are all actively contributing projects Drupal easy Jumele And yes, the legal name is with the bang by the way, it's it's a whole thing Open cms papaya fun to say Which is the most delicious It's a very delicious cms plone red accent Scientific cms scientific cms was created by some of the same people that were involved with mit It's a cms meant for scientific data sharing It's a very specific use case But it's one of the best examples of open source They saw a need and they filled it and they released it out into the community If you have a very specific scientific study that needs data sharing a very specific way in a very specific format You could use wordpress, but why scientific cms exists? Use the best tool for the job and I guarantee it if you work in other cms's just to play around it You will learn things that will affect your wordpress work And guess what every single talk at most every single Jumele day Word camp um drupal con 95 percent of the talks are agnostic You could replace drupal at a drupal con with wordpress what when the speaker's talking and most every principle applies Very few times are you digging into the actual code unless it's a developer conference And showing drupal or wordpress or jumele specific things Yeah, they might talk about different plugins like it's a marketing talk Oh, I recommend these plugins for wordpress, but you can still get something out of it But you know what you'll meet You'll meet amazing people There aren't amazing people in other projects. I hate to tell you. They're not only wordpress Now like in like wordpress as well we they have some not-of-the-amazing people that are the same tribalism Drupal con starts on monday in Nashville You know what they're doing? They have a cms festival They've invited every open source cms to exhibit at drupal con That's pretty cool Jumele's sending a couple former board members there And other cmss will be there as well Because they realize that open source is more important Than being team wordpress table three Wordpress They're also a member Funny story about cms garden is you have to pay to be a be a member of cms garden And What I said there's a couple I didn't see in there. I was going to ask about that. You had to be a paid member It's a thousand dollars per cms a year to cover their expenses um I once asked matt During the jumele world conference about the cms garden. Yeah, no idea. They were even involved That was back then it was pretty new at the time, but even back then They were able the foundation was able to apply and say hey, we want to be a part of this pay the thousand bucks and support it now cms garden is a lot larger now and Different projects some of the larger ones have more resources to give to the to their nonprofit work, but it's a registered nonprofit Heck even wordpress is not even a doesn't even have a registered nonprofit for the main group anymore They still have the nonprofit for some of the other activities, but wordcamps And I haven't run up to the nonprofit anymore for tax reasons so registered nonprofit out of germany um But look at these stats these are a few months months old Wordpress makes up 65 percent of all business websites. This doesn't include e-commerce Below jumele makes up one out of every 10 business websites It's a lot more than I bet you thought it was It's something that's worth paying attention to Even if you need to migrate away from it knowing the code base is good And you can take their ideas and the coding principles and what works and doesn't work for them You know one of the biggest lessons that wordpress. I personally think is learned from jumele Not to break backwards compatibility For better for worse wordpress has kept their backwards compatibility promise And that's been a mainstay of wordpress for the most part You know what jumele is most known for The jump from one five to two five Two five to three and how you have to rebuild all these sites and all the customers are upset and all that stuff Now it does does wordpress have to make different technical decisions because of their back its compatibility. Yes But is it better or worse? They're just different Use the tool you want to use but look look what's next wix squarespace. We believe Of all business websites on the internet out of the top five Only two of them are open source Then you have drupal Then you have close source Type of three and you have one at one and another open source one What we have this list is closed source The sass solutions are killing open source And these numbers get worse year after year Tell you why Wix weebly and squarespace are cool Seriously If you put off your developer hat for a minute and you've never touched cms in your life You can build some pretty cool stuff with no experience. That's who they're going for But people don't own it They don't own their content in most cases. Yes, some of them have different licenses. You can export and do things like that But you don't own it That's why we are bold grid. We try to bring that same experience But you're inside of wordpress and there's no shortcuts. We don't lock you away um, you know, you own your content But being able to do what you want with your stuff is pretty impressive You look at the blog market share. Oh wordpress makes up 81 percent of all blogs. That's not surprising But look what's number two blogger Still makes a 15.4 percent of all blogs That's not open source. They haven't made the blogger open source yet And they probably live a world For those of you think that blogger these are just outdated blogs. I went to the staff conference last year It was a diy marketing conference That was a conference to be an attendee. You had to make six figures on your blog to be an attendee I was sold out We took we registered people we took information out of booth 68 percent of all attendees use blogger to this day Because it works for them But you know what they don't do they don't own their content And they got um tumblr closed source Wigs squarespace weebly close source closest closest zoom line, which makes a point two percent of all blogs You know what zoom was not really not good at You know what zoom was one of the worst things that it's not a blogging platform. Can you use it for that? Sure. Should you? No It's not what it's meant for And this whole antithesis of this is basically We need to focus on open source We need to look at open source first. We need to think about how do we make wordpress stronger? By supporting open source if we support other open source projects It's only going to help wordpress Wordpress has no wish to kill these other open source cms You know who the risk for all of us are The sass solutions the closed source Wigs weekly squarespace And these other closed source solutions are what is risking all of our jobs It's not Gutenberg It's not page builders It's none of that It's these do-it-yourself solutions that nobody owns their content And people don't realize they're not holding their content And we're getting into this space that open source at a whole Is Growing in some ways microsoft microsoft gives more money to the linux foundation and any other organization That microsoft is some of one of the largest open source contribution teams out there One of the developers of uj s works it Yeah, it works that way so microsoft. Yeah, that's her job Yeah, they do they support contributors and all that stuff and that's great So we see a push towards open source, but in the web space world We have seen users move away from And a lot of that's happening because a lot of users are scared of making the right decision It's also a very complex right now. Yeah There's a lot of options out there and a lot of people are so you know, they log into wordpress. We've done a study With thousands and thousands of web users 60% of people that buy wordpress hosting for the first time shared hosting. This is an average one Cancel their account within 30 days six and zero They don't even say that. Yeah, they don't even at the homepage because they log in and They are confused what and you know the reason We've surveyed thousands of people Um the reason this is the story we heard 95% of the time Oh, I have a buddy because a nephew neighbor That knows about the web I wanted to build a website for my bakery or whatever and I asked him for help And they all say oh use wordpress. It's easy That's what they hear nine times out of 10 because that person uses wordpress and for them. It's easy. It's wordpress easy It's a cms It's a cms any cms is a learning curve are some cms have a lower learning curve than others. Sure Concrete five Their admission statement is to be the cms your client will use Now from the developer point of view you might not agree. It's the most ease of use But but their goal is for the client's user client's client To be able to use it and that's their focus and they're doing some amazing things They actually said it. I was talking to Jessica. She's a concrete five evangelist. She was watching my bold good demo She's like you're using concrete five like No, I'm not. She's like, well, we had some of these features three years ago. Yeah And the open source and we took some of those ideas Gutenberg is taking some of these ideas of page builders the uiux and pushing them forward Whatever we can do to make wordpress better and the open source community better Is good for everybody. It's like Gutenberg. Have you ever been sourced just the same thing? Exactly? Well, I'll be part of court. I'll be part of court But that doesn't keep jumele from importing error Heck tiny mce our current editor that we all know and love Isn't so many cms's and rightly so It's a really cool whizzy. We're getting her especially at the time. It was the best one out there And these do a lot of development help and wordpress and julem things like that um And I think we forget where we come from. I think we want to be part of a winning team so much that we forget why we're here so Basically think about open source I don't I don't like to hear comments like Oh Drupal sucks for this reason or You know, but gentle's bad for this reason. I get it. It's not your cup of tea Or we can all agree that is a use case for all of these tools. It might not be your chosen tool set And that's okay. I'm not saying you need to spend your time and learn inside and out every cms or the sun Use the best tool for you But don't discount the other ones and bad mouth them because they're all doing the same thing All these place most of these open source products of volunteers Very few companies Uh have um, you know associated with companies that are helping them, you know wordpress. We say that, you know automatic Um, you know, it's the company wordpress. They're a separate company. Do they pay and help contributors? Yeah, but so do other companies like blueboast go and edit lots of them Lots of plug developers also work in the project. That's great. But these other products are doing the same thing And we can use our place being the most popular open source cms and push the internet forward or we stand our echo chamber And not change the world as much as I think we have the power to so that basically um That's my acoustic upload edition of this time. So questions comments deathlets Do you think the jumas number is so high because they've been around for so long? I mean they still only make up about 2.9 to 3 of the internet as a whole So it's still a large jump when you compare against um Wordpress, but they have been around since the mombo days If you count mombo and then the fork they've been around longer than wordpress um But You know, I can't say exactly why I'm one of the jumas biggest strengths is governments um For the longest time some whole country is mandated generally use So that was they have a lot of governmental sites But a business websites was does not include governmental sites. They still have 9% which is nothing to sneeze at. It's not bad market share And no there's a thousand options Yeah, and you know what it's I get it, you know Jumas net necessarily the everyone's cup of tea and that's okay. That's fine. Use wordpress. I use wordpress for a lot of my client projects, too um But we should at least kind of respect what that team's doing because they have their roadmap and they have their goals and they're trying to Push technology forward And You know, we all steal from each other all these open source cms is borrow from each other because it's open source You're allowed to do that sometimes to take the actual code sometimes to just take the ideas One of the best events I've ever been to you is The CLS community leadership summit in texas Of all of these open source board members and leaders all came together just talking about open source as a whole What are the issues that open source communities have? You know what one of the biggest issues is what they call founder syndrome That the people that were around from the beginning get put up on a pedestal and sometimes They become toxic to the community. I'm not stating that all that's the case in our community But you can see why you know how something goes from small to large If you know people don't have that leadership skill and how do they you know a lot of smaller projects? They die out because they allow bigotry and stuff to last in their community Because their founders happen to have those beliefs That's dangerous. Drupal just went through that Two a year and a half two years ago so much so that it made national news time magazine wrote about that Oh You're talking about a lot of other CMSs and You kind of didn't cover other open source frameworks. Yeah It's a react of you They're about And so for me, I'm kind of thinking about I don't Use Drupal or Juma even though I I'm sure they're perfectly fine CMSs because if I need to CMS like yeah, I kind of But I use Drupal or not. I usually are values. Do I use react into that was great so they killed it um And I you know I had time would probably learn rails and I kind of wonder about that approach because like again like If I need a content management system, I'm going to use the one that I spent the last sure 10 years learning, you know, I mean But also I don't do a website thought so it's like the one website. I absolutely. Yeah, I mean, but I wonder if Maybe that's a binder that I have I gotta definitely help the bunch of people swear space up the website because yeah I mean, I did mention I'm like I said go to other open source communities I encourage any open source involvement You know javascript php lower rail movie. Um, I talk a lot about CMSs in this Talk simply because at a word camp that's most people's That's most end users and integrators exposure to the open source world is the cms. Yeah The developers aside Um, you know the people that are just I call them integrators that are using the tool sets Maybe doing a little bit css and things like that to build a front-end website But there are yeah, there's some amazing projects out there. Um, where real is one of them and You can do a lot with it. Like I already talked in a day I like oh, I'm gonna spend for a level web app and do this and this and this instead of doing it as a plugin Because that shouldn't be in a plug into these reasons That's the type of thinking that I think is going to push the web form Being in this little echo chamber. They're saying wordpress wordpress wordpress is a little bit dangerous I still remember the days back when everybody wanted to integrate things like magento and wordpress together where There wasn't a barrier except for the the technical barrier I mean there was a company in michigan called core php They make products where you can bind drupal and jubilee together wordpress and jubilee together And you can have a full wordpress install inside of a jubilee site and you can use any wordpress widget and any jubilee module position Why do you want to do that? I've actually used it once Um, it was you some years ago Do you want to have the blog functionality? Um, you could use it for the blog But I think it's kind of it's a lot of weight because you're loading two whole cms's in your site Um, there was a widget when the client wanted We were a juma shop and then we only did juma then we didn't do wordpress Um, it was one of the things whatever, you know, that also wasn't good that that was one of the things that the owner wanted to stick with um And they needed a very specific plugin that for century 21 only offered to century 21 agents in wordpress So we use that plug-in use that extension have to have to optimize the hell out of it. Um, because it's a lot of weight Um, to be able to pull that those widgets into juma module positions And the cool thing about that that extension the core php that is it would automatically be able to like a fake theme Wordpress that would pick up the css styles from The master juma template and it's cool stuff like that because it's open source that you're allowed to do that and Even though it might not be practical. It's fun that people play around with that so Do you think the drumbeat of like always following like what percentage we're at is a symptom of tribalism? Or do you think that contributes to more tribalism? I think it's both um I think it does contribute to tribalism if we're so focused on the numbers That it it makes it seem like we're trying to be competitive To the other cmsos I've been in juma board meetings where I'm giving examples of what the wordpress community does and I've been yelled at scolded what's not talked about wordpress F u Wordpress is doing some good things they're doing some great things. We should look at it and mimic it um, and the other hand, uh So it's a symptom up, but I think it also it's an echo chamber if we're so focused on the number I think that it sends the message that the other cms is are bad. I don't believe map leaves that I believe he's proud of what wordpress has done But there's a reason why he's spoken at other conferences including the jumba world conference There's a reason why word can't miami goes out of its way to invite other projects there I spoke to jason nickerson. He was the original Open source speaker ever to speak of word can't miami years and years ago And he said he had a good experience, but he got a lot of negative comments and Um, didn't feel welcome in that community. That's sad. I think that doesn't speak very well to the wordpress community There's word can't miami that was you know, that's kind of mind-blowing. They were such an inclusive community Unless you mentioned unless you wear a jumba shirt. Yeah And the same thing that I want is them and the same thing happy amethyst is them and the same thing happens in jumo, right? you know you where um I was I was at the uh, the cloud fest conference in germany Um, you know both girls are sponsored. Um jumba was there. They had some volunteers there I was on my free time was helping the jumo project in some meetings and structure and stuff And somebody wrote a blog post that was there as a jumo volunteer saying Oh, well, my demo or treasure wasn't even there helping juma. Like it was a bad thing. Like I was doing my day job I was doing my day job and I was spending my free time trying to support you And it it's every project. Please don't think I'm just saying this is a wordpress issue. This is an open source issue so What what uh, what areas are doing a good job of it? Like what what? I mean our our web servers doing a good job of of not competing and pushing together and where where are you seeing this this This what what communities are you seeing this work in? You know where people aren't competitive or are you I have to say you can't really pick anything where it's not competitive. Yeah, I mean I I can only point to specific examples of specific groups of people like the community leadership summit Is lots of open source projects coming together? But it's their leadership and for the most part the leadership is pretty Is you know cute cross communicates quite a bit, you know, I know the president of jumo and toxin president You know of the dupal association and concrete five and all that stuff and with matt and all that talking about what's working Few guys things like that. It's just It's the people that have dedicated their lives because they feel threatened when another project comes in They feel like their livelihood is at risk Their market share is going to be you know, I've devoted my life to wordpress And I'm going to be screwed if wordpress dies because but everything kind of works out for a reason. Um asp classic The average hourly rate for an asp classic developer is over a thousand an hour Because nobody knows it And there are still a very small subset of users That use that There is a correlation between how many clients there are and how many and what the rates are Same thing's happening in the jumo community for those the more clients we bring into the thing the less you can They'll charge so we're flooding the market unless you differentiate yourself and that's a marketing But as a whole by flooding by growing so quickly with the wordpress market share We are essentially saturating ourselves with low cost You get a whole you get a larger spectrum And if you get more people you also got more people who are now providing services at lower prices Yeah, that's where we all started at that moment of like we all need to stop charging $500 for a website Right. That was our conversation With anybody who says I'm gonna be a web developer right off the front You know, well, yeah, it's people just don't do the word web developer is being misused. They're thinking like You know, like, oh, I'm a web developer. I would say you're an integrator You know, I install some plugins and do some css not discounting that but Um people feel threatened and they like to feel part of a winning team And you know the conversation the jumo community is man juma. There's no money left in juma I know people that are making a lot of money in juma right now I know a lot of people that are not making anything in juma I know a lot of people that are making nothing wordpress to me I know a lot of people that are making a lot in wordpress You know good marketing and good services aren't always going to work No matter what But I don't think we should throw other cms's under the bus and other open source projects under the bus Just because we happen to use a different tool Question statement, maybe sir, can I ask everyone? Yeah I actually personally haven't seen a lot of this. I've seen like maybe an occasion like, oh You're using that or you're having used it in a while First I want to say something out of the question like actually every Drupal person I've ever met I'm not Drupal but juma Super friendly and nice. They are like super very careful with who introduced me. Okay. Maybe that's a thing I haven't really seen like this stigma. Maybe it's because I don't know Not to throw you under the dough of us, but early today we had a conversation We had a conversation and the first thing you did was sigh heavily and roll your eyes when we mentioned a different project Yeah, because I've been doing data entry in a horrible fashion for eight six hours that should not be done that way No, not even talking about juma, talking about magenta Oh, that's because of the upgrade merge problem. Yeah, and it's still very valuable Like I would still use it for sir edge. Sure. But if somebody was ancillary to you in that room They happen to be magenta corporate contributor and all fairness. We were all talking about having actually used it, right? I mean, so we're talking about strengths and weaknesses. Oh, yeah, I'll tell you this is a wordpress, right? Oh, yeah, I mean, it's I think it's we're gonna have a strength and weakness conversation But we also have to think about who else is in the room. We have a code of conduct on how we How's that fair? When a condom doesn't say that we can't speak the truth and if the truth is there is a deficiency there I'm not talking to you, right? He's talking about treating people with respect Which is a thing that you could do in a credit. You could say critical things that are respectful I mean, I think it's very different thing. You can't be well never mean he phrase it there Like we got to watch using the room and we can't talk negative about it. No What I was trying to say is let's look at code of conduct as an example, right? Is that there are certain phrases And stigmas that we that we don't have to tolerate in our community because it can make those people that could that Identify with those groups not feel welcome I agree that we want it to be equally correct. I like I fully I fully agree we can have conversations and talk about what works What doesn't and we should have friend conversations But if the first thing that happens when somebody, you know says another cms is you sigh heavily and make a joke and you know it That is a slippery slope to Well, that sucks now It's too much perfect. No Is wordpress perfect? No. Is there a perfect open source project? Not. I think we can all help each other I'm not saying you need to stand like shells and not saying anything negative More constructive about any project. I think we all should we could we should all accept constructive criticism constructive criticism better no matter what project here So if I misspoke or if I wasn't clear, I apologize No, I just wanted to make sure I I've seen it seems like we're going down the road of don't talk bad at all And that seems like that then you're boxing yourself into never addressing the real issues at the bottom Yeah, so James's point he did go on after he made that, you know disparaging comment earlier and talk And and talk about an actual thing about the upgrade path and what happened and said, you know an actual good constructive criticism We lost weeks of work because we had to rebuild something from the jaco that I just wouldn't work because of Plugged authors decide they're not going to support another version. So they're like or they're slowly Eight months to get we're going to see similar things with Gutenberg They'll be plugin developers that won't support it and that is going to, you know, give wordpress Maybe a black eye to some people Well, but look at like that. You've ever read the upgrade guide for laireville going from a point release Like five three to five four, it's like make sure that you modify your interface that succeeded That's your classes that are implementing this interface to avoid fatal errors when you upgrade, right? That's the like The the the upgrade guide could be like this is going to take a qualified advance in laireville develop I would say to be fair right in a laireville situation You're already going to be working with a qualified developer to begin with instead of wordpress Whereas it's a one-click update and nobody has to know anything about what's happening So but then we can pros and cons that in terms of like wordpress is technically dead That's because of the fact that we're unwilling to do that But actually But there's definitely a ton of technical debt that we all have to take on because of that design His compound interest at this point How the productive conversation about and look at how other frameworks like june was a lot more pushy on But they lose user base because we're right How big of a hit does dream one take taking a stance like that? I mean if we're 30 of the market and we go php7 only How many percentage points will we talk about losing? I mean, I'm not concerned about the percentage points, but I can I need to a security just did a Most people aren't even on seven. Yeah, most sites aren't even on seven because they can't upgrade it because they're just choosing Not to because I'm still reporting yet Choosing the strong words, but in most cases the host doesn't mandate it and that the host doesn't mandate if they leave it alone Because it's not focused on fix it Security just released a security audit just this week that talked about the php version members I'd recommend checking that out for the most recent statistics Um, but if we mandated php7, we would lose a whole bunch of people Um, we wouldn't necessarily lose them. They just wouldn't be updating anymore, right? And that's what I'm managing for is for them to build in an update mechanism that says no You can't have that update. Yeah, but yeah fair enough. Can I can I challenge what you just said demo? Yeah, do you mind? I'm not Is that um I think that there are two kind of categories here that we have to worry about if we say php7 one or your You can't upgrade Which you know, that's something that I've advocated for where they screw it. Yeah, you just said yeah I want to mandate a minimum php version require for this plugin So then they install it and they hit that activate button and it fails gracefully That's literally where I'm at. We were talking earlier in but um There are a class of people who will not update WordPress, right? Who are WordPress 4.5 and it works into who those people I'm not trying to say who cares But they literally don't matter in this discussion because they're not going to update and then there's a class of people that has um No idea what we're talking about right now In I have on a small scale of I'm trying to see if I can get you know 20% of my user base, which is you know 20 to 40,000 get this website's upgrade. Um Most of the my experience so far is oh php versions that think I can get faster and more secure And they're asking about it and in that most people email their post there. I guess you click this button, right? It's just talking about that host panel or whatever and some people should maybe switch to a managed WordPress host that sponsors word camps um and uh I have no problem telling them That um No, they're okay. So like pressable is an example because they're in the room But like I don't think that you're gonna be upset to hear that somebody's gone for like the world's like Why are you on that server to site ground? Right? Like they're good. They hope can be a they make a good product in their members of our community But so I just want to kind of challenge that mentality of like yes There are an insane percentage of sites that are on a wrong version of php And but I think that we have an opportunity to educate people and like even in cPanel. It's not that hard No, um, you know the crossover between it also I'm sorry. Yeah, I was here Um, and I'm not saying we shouldn't mandate php7 I'm just stating that every project needs to look at the pros and cons of every decision Because every decision does affect a large user base Um, and we can look at examples in the marketplace Well on what other projects have done and see how it's affected them and then weigh the pros or cons um, same thing happened when you know the Customizer was coming out a lot of people were against it. We're pressing just to a soft force Yeah, actually tell people they can't update the next version But not put anything in the next version that actually isn't backward compatible already So basically give like more fridge versions where they don't start using php7 full on that's a boiling card What situation though? You can't do that. It's not necessarily because for those who do well I do know I do know because if you end up having to go back in retreat Say you lose 30% of people automatically because you put this notice up and they can't update anymore And they're already starting to switch off and you see this massive trend to start well, then you can undo it You haven't I do know plug-in developers that do detect for php7 And it's not php7 It doesn't let you install this even if they don't use anything to use php7 Because they fundamentally believe that That's their decision I have a question. The second one from the left. What is that an icon for? Is that a Korean Twitter? Yeah, these are our theories. Oh, it could be a computer. I see it's a tower Oh, I don't see the korean Elevate button that's the it lists you up, right? So What about like the From from what I understand or we've seen the last couple days, maybe jumlah takes uh, well, we're doing an upgrade approach Versus a safer. I'm not going to break the upgrade approach. Well, since jumlah 3 they've had a better probability promise Because they've made decisions and I'm not trying to say this is not the projima time That's not my purpose here My purpose is for us to just kind of think differently and I think a lot of people that see them already are but We can also coach and hella talk and have these conversations which is going to only help us Well, if we don't come away from anything like this But I do realize that we everybody in this room is very guilty of the snarky remarks the second somebody mentions using something other than I've I've been guilty of it too. Yeah, so that's something to work on. So Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very fair way to make me feel guilty at the end of my day Actually, he blared at me through the entire thing. I thought he was like talking at me the whole time Is that like a soft thing on your laptop? Is it rubbery? Are we good?