 The next item of business is a debate on motion 8865 in the name of Angela Constance on transforming justice in Scotland, person-centred and trauma-informed approaches for victims and witnesses. I'd be grateful if members who wish to speak in the debate were to press their request to speak buttons. I call on Angela Constance to speak to and move the motion up to 11 minutes, cabinet secretary. It's a privilege to lead this debate this afternoon, my first as cabinet secretary for justice and home affairs. I want to pay tribute to my predecessor Keith Brown and also look forward to working with all members of this Parliament at what is a pivotal moment in the delivery of Scotland's transformative vision of justice. In my short time in post, I have heard from victims and survivors on the lasting impacts of trauma and how the justice process itself can be re-traumatising. I've heard the very clear message that the justice system needs to focus less on its own needs and more on the individual needs of those seeking justice. When we talk about trauma-informed justice, we need to be clear about what we mean. Trauma-informed practice means ensuring that the impact of trauma doesn't prevent people from giving their best evidence. It means witnesses coming through the justice system without experiencing harm or impeding their recovery. It means listening and responding to feedback from witnesses who are living the experience. It means supporting staff to recognise and manage normal human responses to exposure to what is sometimes the worst of humanity. It means creating and sustaining systems that embody those aims. We know that change can be difficult, particularly in systems with long-established traditions, but the status quo is not an option as the benefits for victims and for justice are transformational. The Knowledge and Skills framework for working with victims and witnesses launched last week gives us a robust, evidence-based and detailed picture of exactly what different staff across the justice system need to know in order to ensure that our justice system recognises the impact of trauma is thoughtful about how it responds and actively seeks to avoid causing further harm. I know that our justice workforce wants to deliver that improved experience. Throughout the system, we see dedicated professionals who have come into their jobs to help people impacted by crime. The framework recognises that every contact an individual has can have a significant impact. From the first knock at the door from the police through to decisions made about parole and release from prison, it details the skills and knowledge needed. It is for everyone who works in a justice setting at whatever level, from receptionist to judges, with different aims and outcomes depending on their role and the type of contact that they have with victims and witnesses. Of course. I thank the current secretary for taking my intervention and welcome her first debate. On the point of when someone is released from prison, would the Government consider proposals for the victim notification scheme to be an opt-out scheme rather than an opt-in scheme to improve uptake and improve communication flow with victims? The member raises an important point about the quality and frequency of engagement with victims throughout their justice journey. He may be aware that there is currently an independent review of the victim notification scheme, and I am hopeful that that will report back to all of us in the not too distant future. Implementation of the framework is now key. We are providing £240,000 to fund trauma specialists to support this right across the sector, bringing our investment in the framework to nearly half a million pounds. That work will continue to be led by the victims task force, which I co-chair with the Lord Advocate. The task force includes cross-sectoral representation, and hears directly from victims through support organisations and the recently established Victims Advisory Board. It is only through partnership and strong collective leadership that we will make progress. The launch of the framework follows on from the introduction of the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform Bill. The bill is rightly ambitious and demonstrates the strength of our commitment to the priorities set out in the vision for justice and the First Minister's policy prospectus, and focuses on improving the experience of victims, witnesses and vulnerable parties in the justice system and ensuring that their voices are heard. The bill includes a definition of trauma-informed practice helping to ensure a consistent understanding and approach, embedding trauma-informed practice across the system, including court scheduling, and requires justice agencies to make efforts to reduce re-traumatisation. It also takes forward the recommendations from the Lord Justice Clerk's review into the management of sexual offences to establish a specialist court for sexual offences in which trauma-informed training will be a key requirement, evidence will be pre-recorded by default, and there will be an automatic right to lifelong anonymity for complainers and state-funded independent legal representation when applications are made to lead evidence on sexual history and character. Establishing an independent victims and witnesses commissioner for Scotland will also help to make the justice system more trauma-informed and person-centred. The commissioner will champion the rights of victims and witnesses and hold government and criminal justice agencies to account by monitoring compliance with standards of service and the victims code. In particular, we know that the experience of women within the justice system are many and varied, and that they may differ significantly from those of men. In this Parliament, it has been a priority spanning more than 20 years to work together to build a shared understanding and a consensus on how to deal with violence against women and girls. I am pleased that the bill also proposes to safeguard vulnerable parties and witnesses in civil cases by extending special measures to prevent cross-examination by an abuser. The justice vision prioritises better outcomes for women and girls. They need to reduce the gap between men and women's feelings of safety and reflect the principles within equally safe, acknowledging that violence against women and girls is underpinned by inequality, societal attitudes and structural barriers that perpetuate that inequality. When women need recourse to the justice system, it is important that we respond effectively, competently and with compassion and understanding. The outcomes from our women's justice leadership panel will be vital in continuing our understanding and awareness of the impacts of gender. We will work to empower all victims and survivors by supporting them to understand what lies ahead, ensure their voices are heard by recognising that people do not cast off their emotions and become just a complainer or just a witness. When we treat people as individuals, we empower them to give their best evidence. We know that every contact a person has with the justice system counts. Victims and witnesses need to know that the services they encountered are designed to support and help them and to know that those who work within those services will listen to and respect their needs. We are taking action to ensure that at every point in their justice journey, victims, witnesses and survivors are met by staff and systems that minimise re-traumatisation and support recovery. Alongside training staff and introducing legislation, we are working with partners to improve communications and make the practicalities of navigating the system and attending court easier. One example of introducing innovation into the justice system is the Victim Support Scotland and CivTech project to develop virtual reality experiences as a means of preparing victims and witnesses for court. The interactive tool has the potential to reduce anxiety and the risk of re-traumatisation and we are delighted to be at the vanguard of developing such a solution. We are separately funding collaborative work to review and to rewrite communications across the justice sector to make them more accessible and person-centred. Of course, person-centred and trauma informed approaches cannot only be for adults. We are also committed to making sure that children are treated in trauma responsive ways by our justice system and that is why we are rolling out the ground breaking Scottish child interview model across Scotland. The model is designed to make the interview process less stressful for children to secure their best evidence as early as possible and to reduce the risk of re-traumatisation. It has already been used by partnerships working across 20 local authorities, nine police divisions and nine health boards and we will have introduced the model across Scotland by the end of next year. Building on this momentum, we will continue to work to deliver a commitment that all children in Scotland who have been victims or witnesses of abuse or violence as well as children under the age of criminal responsibility whose behaviour has caused significant harm will have access to a Bairns Hoos where they can receive holistic trauma informed support and we will publish the national Bairns Hoos standards in the coming weeks which will be tested and pathfinder partnerships from autumn of this year. Presiding Officer, I am under no illusions about the task ahead. Achieving person-centred and trauma informed justice services will require strong partnership and resolve from Government, Parliament and every part of the justice sector. This matters because the most serious offences are most likely to cause the most trauma and are least likely to be reported. Improving the victim and witness experience makes better justice. It delivers better justice for everyone. Feeling safe and having confidence in the justice system is fundamental for individuals and communities for a just, safe and resilient Scotland. I move the motion in my name and I look forward to contributions from across the chamber. Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. I now call Dainie Goon to speak to a move amendment 8865.1 around seven minutes, Mr Greene. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I know you would have wanted to be speaking in today's debate but I'm prohibited from doing so. I can also welcome the Cabinet Secretary to her new position. I'll start on a note of consensus and that's welcoming what is a much needed change and shift of tone in the Government's motion today. I hope that this is a decisive change and approach from the new justice secretary in how we deal with these matters because the publication of the trauma informed justice framework is very timely to say the least and it could not be more necessary right now. It's also nice to hear the Government using the language of victims and victim centric tone because language matters and these are languages and words that we certainly on these benches have been using for many years. Language and words which have translated into action and indeed bills are victims' law, Suzanne's law, Michelle's law, the domestic abuse register law, the spiking law and the local policing law. We hear about all of those today from these benches. These were all tenets of our own manifesto commitments. Of course we do not hold the privilege of introducing them as a Government but we're doing so anyway diligently through members' bill. Not an easy process, I should add. That's because we, but more importantly the public, have seen the pendulum swing in Scottish justice disproportionately in our view on the side of offenders over the past decade. I think the Government knows this. I think it acknowledges that more needs to be done to improve processes for victims and witnesses in their journey through the justice system as victims of crime and witnesses face an uphill struggle throughout the justice journey as we've heard from the initial reporting of a crime to being kept in the dark about how their case is proceeding to the lengthy waits for trials and the endless postponements to those trials but also the trial and the court experience itself and even if the trial does lead to a conviction and that's a big if, the punishment doesn't always fit the nature of the crime, that's something we have debated vociferally in recent months in this place. And even when an offender is released, as we've heard, they're more likely to bump into that person in the supermarket than be told of that release in advance. And if someone breaches release conditions, those breaches are often repeated offences and face little to no recourse at all. So it is no surprise that so many have simply lost trust in the justice system. Many victims told the trauma informed justice paper that their lives were in limbo. They suggested that even if they'd been given the right support they could have given better evidence in court, perhaps leading to better outcomes in court. Of course, we also learned this year that 60 per cent of those who reported domestic abuse to the police had a negative experience. 50 per cent went as far as saying that they had been taken seriously. And I think these are statistics that should shock every one of us. Of course, we've talked a lot about delays to court cases and I commend the work of Kate Wallace, a victim support Scotland, who warned that these delays and repeated adjournments to cases leads from many victims simply withdrawing from the whole process entirely. And that is completely unacceptable in my book. Medium journey times, as it is called, in the High Court are currently sitting at last statistics around two years and 10 months for that journey. That's a 70 per cent rise on pre-pandemic levels. And for sexual assault victims going through the High Court, the medium time was around four years for a case to come to fruition. Four years is a long time for a victim of a crime of that nature. And I should remind the chamber that the court backlog, of course, was exacerbated by the Covid pandemic, was there well and long before it. And we know that the delays are having an effect on victims, on their mental health, described as increasing stress, anxiety, depression, insomnia, self-harm, and even suicide attempts. And I also commend the work of Sandy Brindley from Rape Crisis Scotland, who was absolutely clear that we need to see real action on these delays. And those two women are proud advocates of victims of crime in Scotland, and I commend them for the good work that they do. But equally, as we heard in topical questions today, there have been delays on getting evidence from victims. We heard this on the spiking situation. I welcome any proposals on this, especially those from my colleague, Russell Finlay, and I was pleased to hear the Government respond positively to that line of questioning. We also, of course, need to improve the court experience itself. I think it is fair to say that it is traumatic for many. One witness in the framework paper said that they felt entirely unsafe at the High Court, saying that there are all these people that you have just had a case against, and you are the witness. There is no safe place to go and sit, and I think that we all agree that victims and witnesses should never have to come face-to-face with the accused outside of the courtroom setting. Of course, these are antiquated buildings. There are many of them in dire need of much capital investment, but I have no doubt they are staffed by diligent court staff and workers who are trying their very best to clear the backlog. I think there is some consensus in the room that more needs to be done to improve outcomes for victims, but the question is what we reform and how we go about it, and I am, of course, talking about the Government's plans for duriless rape trials. Lady Dorian, in her review of how we deal with sexual crime in this country, made a number of recommendations, many of which I do support, but it is this one which, I think, having now seen it in the black and white of the law, which seems to be facing the harshest of opposition. Today we learned that pretty much every defence lawyer in Scotland would boycott a pilot for such duriless trials. No defence solicitor in their right mind would advise their client to participate in a pilot of this nature and a judge-only trial for the most serious of crimes. So I have to ask the cabinet secretary if the accused has no solicitor. It begs the question how on earth the trial could even be a trial on every mind of fair one. Of course, what sort of pilot at the end of it, if it is a pilot, will publicly admit to the world that it has failed in any way, because that surely will leave the door open to miscarriages of justice. I would love to have had some extra time, but I'm really sorry. I can give you the time back briefly. Okay, in that case I'll be happy to hear Mr Swinney. I'm grateful to Mr Greene for giving way, and I'm interested in the argument, because I think he's in danger of arguing at cross-purposes with himself, which I'm surprised about, because most of his speech, which I've heartily agreed with, has been about the enhancement of the situation facing victims, the protection of victims and the articulation of victims' interests. But he's just essentially, from my listening to him, slam the door on a means of actually strengthening the potential outcomes for victims on rape cases. I'm really interested to understand how he squares that particular circle. Let me respond by quoting something to Mr Swinney. Undermining the foundations of the Scottish justice system to increase conviction rates is a dangerous approach, which will create a serious risk of injustice. They're not my words, Mr Swinney. This was from the President of the Law Society of Scotland, who I know who he holds in great esteem. We've also heard repeatedly from every bar association in the land that they have nervousness and unease about the plans. We've heard from many eminent lords and ladies and others and commentators. It's not just the media or politicians that are fueling this discussion. It's coming from the judiciary itself. The Government cannot ignore those views or warnings. In fact, it would do so at its peril, in my view. So I think the Government has a difficult task. I understand that to reform. But it cannot achieve reform if it does not take all the cogs of the justice system with it on that reform. If it does, it will fail. I would hate to be the person that says, I told you so. We need our amendment today calls on another aspect of fairness, which I do need to plug because I will be seeking support from the chamber on it. That is that electronic monitoring, whilst on bail, should not form part of any future sentence if someone has found guilty. Because someone on bail is untried and for all intents and purposes is not guilty. So any restriction imposed on them as a condition of bail is to keep them out of custody. It is an incentive, not a punishment. So for that I end where I started. Warm words are welcome but we've heard them all before. It is time to act, Presiding Officer. I move the amendment, my name. Thank you Mr Greene. I now call Cary Clark to speak to the move amendment 2865.2, up to six minutes, Ms Clark. I'm very grateful and I'm pleased to open this debate on behalf of Scottish Labour to speak to the motion that Pauli McNeill will move later this afternoon. I'd like to thank all who contributed to this framework, which is a substantial document. We very much hope that it assists with work across the criminal justice sector to address the multiple ways the justice system currently exacerbates the experience of trauma for many victims and witnesses. We also hope that it helps to address the impact the experience the justice system itself has, which is often described by victims as re-traumatising. The framework outlines in detail the impact that psychological trauma can have and the need for a person-centred approach. We support the Scottish Government in work to drive a better understanding of the impact of trauma across the system, but we must recognise that our current criminal justice system unfortunately deals with those issues very poorly. The trauma that witnesses experience has been known and discussed for decades. The Scottish Labour Party at the moment is carrying out our own consultation on ending violence and sexual harassment against women, and Pauli McNeill and myself are undertaking meetings throughout the country. The emotional and physical risks and difficulties faced by victims pre-trial, during trial and at sentencing are raised again and again. When the criminal justice committee met rape survivors we heard harrowing testimony. Rape survivors described extremely poor experiences of the criminal justice system which they felt let them down with complainers saying giving evidence and their wider experience of the criminal justice system could be as traumatising as the crime itself. The terms, re-traumatising and second violation are repeatedly used. We do not underestimate the scale of the challenge to change practice in the justice system because to deliver the change needed there not only needs to be a greater awareness of the need for trauma informed practice but many aspects of the justice system need fundamentally changed. The current legal process is not organised around the needs of victims so we need to look at how we improve the experience of victims and witnesses and to ensure outcomes which deliver the interests of justice. We understand that this new framework cannot be implemented unless the serious challenges that the criminal justice system currently faces are addressed. We have the highest remand rates in Western Europe, crowded prisons, extensive court backlogs, a rise in recorded sexual offences, a shortage of criminal justice social workers and a crisis in legal aid and we know that during the pandemic court backlogs in the high court were disproportionately affecting women and children with sexual crimes amounting for more than two thirds of cases waiting to be heard so our amendment highlights both the re-traumatising effect of the court process but also the impact of court backlogs and delays on victims. The victims bill which the cabinet secretary spoke to is in rape cases to have legal representation when the defence wishes to lead evidence in limited circumstances. We support this however our amendment invites the Scottish Government to explore further the benefits of expanding the legal advice and representation available to victims particularly in rape cases. Over recent decades many other countries and adversarial court systems have introduced greater legal advice for victims and enhanced rights to representation for them in the courts and that seems to have significantly improved the experience of victims within those justice systems so we believe to inform this debate we need to look at what's happening elsewhere and it's worth saying that Scotland is lagging behind much of Europe on victims right. For example in Denmark victims are entitled to state funded legal advice in the reporting stage before enduring trial. In Spain female victims of gender violence have the right to free legal advice regardless of their resource. In Norway victims have the right to legal advice before trial and during trial and to the conclusion of the case. So for example in Norway a rape victim is entitled to see a lawyer for two hours before the report a rape allegation to get legal advice and then receives legal representation to the conclusion of the case. Given all of the evidence from rape victims about their experience of the justice system we believe there is a case to look at how we expand the legal support available to rape victims in particular and ask that the Scottish Government look at what more could be done. So Scottish Labour supports trauma informed practices for victims and witnesses but we recognise this will mean fundamental change in practice but also cultural change. The legal profession is currently threatening to boycott aspects of the victims bill relating to single judge rape trials. So I think the cabinet secretary is correct to say that we need partnership and resolve and a great deal more work needs to be done to ensure that we're able to go form with reforms that are effectively implemented. We look forward to hearing the contributions to this debate and as a party are open to discussing any ideas which deliver for witnesses and victims. Thank you, Ms Clark. I've been informed that you are not a signatory of the amendment so I need you to indicate your support for the amendment and then to move it please. I'm happy to move the amendment in Pauline McNeill's name. And that you support it. And I definitely support the amendment. It's a new one for me as well, Ms Clark. I now call Beatrice Wishart who joins us online for up to six minutes, Ms Wishart. Thank you, Presiding Officer and firstly can I thank the Deputy Presiding Officer for granting me permission to leave this debate early to members for having to do so. On behalf of Scottish Liberal Democrats I welcome the Trauma informed justice framework and I thank all those involved in the process especially those affected by trauma who shared their lived experience of the justice system. Trauma affects the ability to cope with stress or difficult feelings, relationships and ability to remember events. It's also why some victims take a long time to report serious sexual crimes. Retraumatisation occurs when victims are exposed to reminders of harm they previously experienced while a witness can be perceived as not credible because of behaviour stemming from trauma. A trauma informed justice system reduces the risk of retraumatisation by understanding what people need to feel safe, making the process predictable and understandable and empowering them to engage effectively. This results in a system where in harms are minimised the workforce is empathetic and connected and witnesses are supported to give better quality evidence. For this framework to make a difference all those who work and volunteer in the justice system must receive tailored and on-going training to practice in a trauma informed way. Effective leadership is needed to achieve a trauma informed justice system and implementation must be accompanied by robust monitoring and evaluation. The framework is a positive step but it must be enacted across the board. It cannot work in isolation. A fair and effective justice system must understand and identify how discrimination impacts on crime and justice and ensure that all victims can seek redress. The Bairnshoose model for children and young people who are victims and witnesses requires a transformation and collaborative working between police, social work, healthcare and judiciary. The Scottish Government has an ambitious goal of making the Bairnshoose accessible to all eligible by 2025. We must see the focus and dedication required to meet this goal. The proposed victims, witnesses and justice reform bill is a welcome step. For some time now the Scottish Liberal Democrats have been calling for reform which strikes a balance between the rights of the accused and the needs of the victims. I welcome the provision to grant anonymity to victims of sexual offences. Scottish Liberal Democrats support the proposal to scrap the not proven verdict. By appearing not to clear and accuse person of charges this verdict creates confusion for the public, stigmatises those acquitted and fails to provide closure for victims. The proposed reforms of impacts on juries. The Scottish Government has carried out mockdury research but I take this opportunity to echo my colleague Liam McArthur's ask that the Scottish Government explore the possibility of further research with real juries. Convictions for rape are the lowest of any crime type, 51% compared to 91% for all other crimes. Most rape cases never make it as far as court. There's work to do to improve the chances of rape or sexual assault cases coming to court and being prosecuted. Cross-party work has seen improvements to protection for vulnerable witnesses, for example through allowing evidence to be pre-recorded or provided by video link. These options must be available for anyone who needs them. Access to legal aid continues to be a challenge for victims of domestic violence, particularly in cases of coercive control where a perpetrator has debts in the woman's name. Action is needed to ensure that legal aid provision is there for those who need it. Victims in islands areas must not be disadvantaged because of their island location. There have been improvements enabling adult survivors of rape and sexual assault in the Northern Isles to be examined without having to be flown to the mainland. There is work to do to resolve this situation for children and young people though there are understandable complexities to address. Police Scotland's island-based sexual offence liaison officers who are responsible for being first responders to allegations of sexual offence must receive ongoing training to ensure their expertise is always up to date. Along with my party colleagues I look forward to the important work of scrutinising the victims, witnesses and justice reform bill as it progresses through Parliament. Thank you Presiding Officer. Thank you very much. We now move to the open debate. I can inform colleagues that there is absolutely no time in hand so I would be grateful if all members would stick to their speaking allocation and any interventions will need to be accommodated within that. I call first Rona Mackay to be followed by Pam Gosall up to six minutes. First I welcome the cabinet secretary to her new role. Scotland's justice systems on the verge of transformational changes changes that I believe will finally put victims and witnesses at its heart. For too long our system has focused on process and penalising with little thought given to the experience of the victims and witnesses going through the judicial process. As a member of the justice committee this session and last my colleagues and I have heard countless harrowing stories as Katie Clark outlined of how traumatising the judicial process can be for victims particularly women who have experienced sexual and domestic abuse and the lack of support there for them. Change to the system is long overdue but of course change does come with challenges and with the greatest respect to our legal profession change does not come easily when traditional centuries old practice comes under the microscope but in today's world doing nothing is not an option if we are to have a fairer and rehabilitative justice system fit for modern society that said we do need to take the legal profession with us and a lot of work would have to be done. The publication of trauma informed justice and knowledge and skills framework for working with victims and witnesses will equip justice agencies with the skills and knowledge needed to reduce the re-traumatisation of victims and witnesses. It was developed by NHS Education Scotland as part of an overall package of £440,000 Scottish Government funding. The Scottish Government's ambition shared with COSLA and other partners identifies six key aims of a trauma informed justice system. They are practice informed by people with lived experience recognising the importance of wellbeing in the workforce recognising where people are affected by trauma and adversity and responds in ways that prevent further harm supports recovery and addresses inequalities and improve life chances. The victims, witnesses and justice reform Scotland bill if passed will be the vehicle for achieving that and it will enable the most important transformation in Scotland since devolution. We will build upon the recommendations of Lady Dorian's review group on improving the management of sexual offences cases by protecting the dignity of victims through an automatic lifelong right of anonymity for victims of sexual offences and will establish a specialist sexual offences court. I am delighted that we will provide an automatic right to state-funded independent legal representation for complainers when applications are made to lead evidence of their sexual history or bad character in sexual offence cases. We will also enable a pilot of single-drudge trials for cases of rape and attempted rape to take place to gather evidence on their effectiveness. I realise that this is a controversial proposal and it is being resisted, as we know by many in the legal profession. However, my colleagues and I met in private with rape and sexual abuse survivors who said that they would welcome that. I think that that should be of paramount importance. We must listen to them. Research has shown that prejudice and preconceived notions of some jury members have dictated the outcome of these trials and so with the provides that the judge appointed as trauma aware I think that this could be a great step forward for victims. The proposal to end the not proven verdict is one that I welcome home wholeheartedly. During the 1970s a young woman was murdered less than a mile from where I lived and the accused walked free on a not proven verdict due to a legal loophole. This was met with widespread astonishment and has stayed in my mind since then. A shocking number of trials for rape or attempted rape result in a not proven verdict. Presiding Officer, as a convener of the cross-party group on women, families and justice and men's violence against women and children action is needed to improve the experiences of women and children and to ensure that the voices of victims and survivors are heard and acted upon. We know that many women in prison for low-grade offences have suffered domestic abuse, head injuries and have mental health and addiction problems. Prison is no place for them. It wrecks families and exacerbates existing issues which leave them there in the first place. Early intervention and holistic support are the only way to alleviate this. Equally, prison is no place for children and young people and I am pleased that the Government recognises that. It is legislating to stop young people being held in adult prisons, placing them instead in holistic secure care. I do not have time to talk about the Bairns House but I am delighted about it. In conclusion, those radical and transformative proposals for our justice system are a huge step in the right direction to modernising and improving our justice system. With our greater understanding of trauma now and how it impacts people, whether victim, witness or offender, we must look towards a humane and rehabilitative system of justice that works in Scotland. I would also like to welcome the cabinet secretary in our new role. I am honoured to be contributing to today's debate on transforming justice in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. Last week, my colleague Jamie Greene described a frequent pattern in the Scottish Government legislation that mingles policies that are good, bad and indifferent. In my view, the justice reform bill is no different. It is informed by recommendations by Lady Dorian's review group and, while some are commendable, others are more controversial. The right to a jury trial is a fundamental Scottish right that will not help the victims of crime. Thomas Ross KC has said that it is an intolerable interference by the executive with the judiciary. That appears to be yet another occasion whereby the SNP must think again. As my colleague Jamie Greene has already spoken about this in his speech. As MSPs, many of us have been approached with people's own experiences on how the justice system has failed them. Since introducing my proposed bill on domestic abuse last year, time and time again I have heard moving testimonies of people who have lost faith in the justice system. One domestic abuse victim spoke to me about how she feels the justice system often forgets the rights of victims because it is too busy protecting the rights of perpetrators. She asked why is it that she feels confined to her own home out of fear while her abuser is walking around carefree having been granted bail. Another family has spoken to me about their disbelief that the Scottish justice system can go to such lengths to avoid keeping perpetrators in prison. They speak of how their abuser was able to ruin their lives of their three grandchildren but has yet to spend a single day behind bars. They say that Scotland may well have a legal system but until things change it does not have a justice system. That is why I support my colleagues amendment to afford victims a greater voice in decisions concerning the remand and release of offenders and better protection around their safety once an offender has been released. Similarly our victims law would allow victims to request that criminals be banned from entering their local area when they are released on licence. For victims we allow to speak directly during parole hearing when a victim is being considered for release and for all parole board hearings to be transparent. I would urge members across the chamber to back those proposals. We also know that while there is a problem with the Scottish justice system, those are not felt equally by all groups in society. Some groups including BAME individuals or those with disability can find themselves alienated from the justice system. Those are countless examples of that. One organisation who deals exclusively with BAME individuals has said that there is a lack of support for female survivors of domestic abuse to attend court. Even in the cases where it is known that someone's first language is not English important documents such as citation letters are only sent to them in English instead of their mother tongue. Another organisation who deals with death clients has told me that how there is a general lack of understanding of challenges faced by death people in the justice system. They spoke to me about cases where death victims of assault or rape have had to wait days or even weeks before being able to speak to the police about what has happened to them all because of problems with finding an interpreter in time but this is just one example. I welcome the cabinet secretary to committing to a person-centred approach making sure that the justice system is there for all no matter what your background is or what your disability is. In conclusion the overall message to take from this is clear when it comes to justice one size fits all approach simply does not work. And there is much work to be done before we have a justice system that victims deserve. The SNP have consistently broken promises to victims meaning victims are often left in the dark without a voice while the criminal roams free in their community. We need to see bold, genuine reform to the current system and this must include punishments that truly reflect the harm inflicted on victims' lives giving victims a voice they deserve ensuring victims long-term safety is made the priority it should long have been. I am happy to speak to the Government motion today and support the vision of justice system that is just, safe and resilient Scotland that puts victims and witnesses at the heart of our justice system. The publication trauma-informed justice and knowledge and skills framework for working with victims and witnesses identify six key aims of a trauma-informed justice system. Understand the prevalence and impact of trauma on witnesses in the workforce avoid re-traumatisation where at all possible support recovery from the impact uphold the rights of witnesses affected by trauma to equal and effective participation in the legal process support resilience of the workforce and reduce the potential impact of vicarious trauma leadership and management of organisations and systems uphold those aims. In some ways it is a bit strange to find ourselves here in 2023 with those aims and principles not already embedded when so much is known about trauma. However, the good news is they give a crystal clear expectations and a helpful roadmap to get us there which I welcome. Change is needed. Fair access to justice must be underpinned by a justice system which allows victims of any crime to fully participate and give evidence without this process contributing further trauma or harm. It's fundamental to the rule of law and our democracy and without it we risk the safety and trust to meet that vision we must ensure that our justice system does not introduce new trauma into people's lives and avoids re-traumatisation. I think that we'd all agree on the critical importance of staff having a shared understanding about the impact of trauma and the knowledge and skills to minimise re-traumatisation and support recovery. The acknowledgement of vicarious trauma on the workforce is important too because the numbers of crime and witnesses can be affected by trauma in many ways that it's imperative for the criminal justice system to be designed to be person-centred and trauma informed. The motion notes the opportunity for Parliament to further consider those issues through its scrutiny of the victims, witnesses and justice reform Scotland bill. There's much to welcome in that bill and I would like to join colleagues in welcoming the abolition of the not proven particular. Another relevant piece of legislation making its way through the Parliament at the moment is the care and justice bill which seeks to further children's rights and uphold the promise. The bill's provisions aim to increase safeguards and support especially to those who may need legal measures to secure their wellbeing and safety. In putting witnesses and victims at the heart of our justice system it's crucial to remember child victims of criminal harm. The majority of victims of crime who are harmed by children are children themselves. The education children and young people's committee of which I'm a member has taken evidence from Victim Support Scotland that they don't currently believe that the children's hearing system takes sufficient cognisance of victim safety or the wider elements of public protection into account as it's currently drafted. They suggest that victim safety and public protection should be more in line with what measures are available to courts to protect victims of crime. I welcome the Scottish Child interview model as mentioned by the cabinet secretary. Victim Support Scotland told us that the whole process of how child victims of crime are dealt with needs to be radically reformed. They rightly point out that the getting it right for every child or gurfic principles and values are not only designed to assist and help children who have harmed but also to help and assist children who are victims of crime, regardless of the age of the person who has caused them harm. We're still at our stage 1 scrutiny of that bill and I hope that the Government would be open to changes which further children's rights even more, perhaps particularly around information sharing to allow safety planning for victims. In a briefing sent ahead of today's debate, children first highlighted the Bairns House approach, which again is to be welcomed. I note that the Scotland's first summer and I support children's first conclusion that this approach will have a transformational impact. However, I think that we would acknowledge what they say when they tell us that more energy and resource is going to be required to ensure that all children and young people have access to it when they need it. At all levels of the justice system, we must have an effective trauma and forward approach which supports people at their most vulnerable. If the contact an individual has with the justice system can have a significant impact, evidence shows that how retreated affects our feelings about and confidence in justice processes and that those experiences are often as important as the conclusion of a case or dispute. For the justice process to work effectively and to encourage people to report crime, victims and witnesses need to know that the services they encounter are designed to support and help them and that those who work within those services listen to and respect their needs. With the Knowledge and Skills framework and up-and-coming legislation, we have the opportunity to ensure that that is the case. Thank you very much. Ms McGuire, I now call Claire Baker to be followed by Audrey Nicholl up to six minutes, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Although I welcome today's debate and the publication of the trauma-informed justice and knowledge and skills framework for working with victims and witnesses, the Cabinet Secretary will recognise that the focus of the debate over the past few days has been the publication of the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform Bill. Indeed, I heard the Cabinet Secretary on GMS this morning and I will direct some of my comments towards the bill. However, the framework which was published on Friday is a welcome contribution to the aim of improving the experience of victims and witnesses in the justice system. Victims of crime have described feeling let down and re-traumatised by their experiences going through the criminal justice system, particularly for victims of violent and sexual crimes, where the adversarial system involves reliving and being challenged on their experiences in the courts is often not something that victims can expect. The backlog to cases is a significant issue that must be addressed. Delays to justice in itself traumatises and stress is stressful for victims. The Victims Task Force research described people saying that the process was limbo. The anticipation of going to court, the anxiety that comes from waiting to go through the process, all adds to the stress and trauma of being prepared to give evidence and have your case brought before the courts. The Scottish Government must tackle court backlogs and properly resource the legal system if those aspirations set out in the framework are to be a reality. Trauma-informed justice is a necessary starting point for improving the experience of victims, but the next issue should include expanding independent legal representation for victims in cases of rape. That is to a limited extent being included in the Victims Witnesses and Justice Reform Bill and that will provide us with an opportunity to explore the merits of this approach further, as my colleague Katie Clark outlined. In particular, the way in which victims of sexual offences are treated through the courts, through the investigation and by the media are concerns that I have raised a number of times in Parliament and all of these experiences contribute to the trauma experienced by victims. While there is broad support in the Parliament to improve the experience of victims and witnesses, particularly in sexual offence cases and a recognition of the impact of re-traumatising victims' experience in the current system, the framework published last week needs to demonstrate how it will be embedded through the justice system and how it will lead to a consistency of approach for vulnerable witnesses. I think that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice's statement did refer to the role of the bill on this point and so also the recently published bill needs to be clear how proposals such as a dedicated sexual offences court will better serve victims. Trauma-informed practice will not deliver justice for victims of sexual assault and rape alone. There are persistently lower conviction rates for rape and attempted rape. In Scotland, the most recent figures show that 51 per cent of rape and attempted rape result in a conviction compared to an overall conviction rate of 91 per cent. In 2021, there were 2,176 rape reported to the police but only 152 of those came to prosecution and just 78 of those led to a conviction. This is in the context of fewer than 20 per cent of victims of rape being reported to the police. This is unacceptable. It is a crime which is overwhelmingly committed against women by men and it is a crime which causes extreme distress and trauma. Yet it remains a crime which is difficult to bring forward and even when it is it is difficult to successfully convict. Rape is a crime which is often not even recognised as a crime and it is one where for the perpetrator there is a reasonable likelihood of no consequences. So to focus on the bill would changing to a single judge trial improve this situation. The Government must be clear about what defines a successful pilot. International comparisons do not tend to show an increased conviction rate but they do demonstrate a more empathetic approach to the case which is victim centred. So will a measure of success be how efficient the change is by reducing delays and delivering quicker decisions. The Government's proposal is for the judge to issue a reasoning of the decision which is not required from a jury. How will the victims experience be measured and how will this be part of the evaluation? I do have some concerns that leaving the detail of pilots to secondary legislation will make it harder for the Government to grow consensus and there is the question of what is to be gained from pilots to be answered. So in recent years there have been two cases where women have taken their case to the civil courts in the pursuit of justice and to have the offence their crime acknowledged. This is not the appropriate route for the severity of the crime. I have previously raised concerns following the case of Denise Claire who bravely waved ananimity to speak about her experience that women would resort to civil courts. In 2018, Miss M successfully sued Stephen Coxon in a Scottish civil court with the sheriff saying that the evidence against Coxon was compelling and persuasive. That followed a not proven verdict in 2016 and it was the first time that someone cleared in a criminal trial was subsequently sued. There is a lesser burden of proof but for women to be resorting to this route indicates that the current system is not working as it should. While the framework may improve the experience of victims and witnesses it does require action from all partners to be co-ordinated and a shared understanding of what it means to be person-centred and trauma informed. There are clear advantages for the justice system if witnesses are supported and listened to in a supportive environment and the cabinet secretary will need to work hard to ensure that there is a priority of the courts to be co-ordinated. For example, Wraith Crisis Scotland has repeatedly called for specialist training for judges and sheriffs to provide over sexual offences and mandatory training for legal representatives involved in sexual offences cases. It is important that the introduction of the framework addresses those calls. Thank you. I now call Audrey Nicholl to be followed by Maggie Chapman. I officially want to acknowledge the bravery of all victims and witnesses who have lived through trauma and experienced the criminal justice system. They deserve to have their experiences acknowledged, their voices heard and justice served. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. I also want to acknowledge families, friends and communities who support victims and witnesses listening, believing, responding and the many staff in organisations often by curiously living the trauma of others navigating the justice system. Our journey towards trauma informed approaches has derived in part from our growing understanding of adverse childhood experiences and the evidence base linking a range of social and personal determinants to wellbeing. We know that there is a disproportionate prevalence of trauma among the justice-involved population and today's debate is an important opportunity to acknowledge the legislative provisions already in place to improve victims and witnesses' experiences at the same time looking forward, not back. The Sexual Offences Act modernised sexual offences legislation to include a statutory definition of consent. The vulnerable witnesses criminal evidence act provides for child witnesses to give pre-recorded evidence in serious cases and I'm particularly pleased that the Forensic Medical Services Act of 2021 now enables a victim to request a forensic medical examination following a sexual assault without first having to report the incident to the police. That has trauma responsive practice all over it, empowering a person to be in the driving seat of their own journey. Of course, the Domestic Abuse Scotland Bill act recognises explicitly psychological domestic abuse such as coercive and controlling behaviour. So why when hope feels like it's at its lowest premium for many victims and witnesses is their experience still so mixed? Just last week I spent an afternoon with the criminal justice social work team in Aberdeen led by the inspirational Claire Wilson observing a trauma responsive approach to women in the criminal justice system underpinned by their understanding of the relationship between the women's own experiences of trauma and their offending behaviour. Skilled practitioners making a difference. The Government motion recognises the critical importance of developing a skilled workforce and I really welcome the new knowledge and skills framework that underpins a whole system approach to training. I often feel that training and workforce development is somewhat overlooked in debate members tend to understandably to focus on the ever challenging issue of funding funding and funding and recently the criminal justice committee undertook post legislative scrutiny on the domestic abuse act and while it was clear it was supported across the justice sector training was identified as a key area for improvement. Giving evidence Police Scotland outlined almost 18.5 officers and staff have received baseline training in the legislation and around 13.5 completed additional core training and around 600 domestic abuse champions have received additional specialist training however despite early progress much more work is required. Giving evidence Professor Michelle Berman highlighted training while training has been rolled out to many thousands of officers it should be trauma informed, continuous and reviewed and Dr Marcia Scott similarly commented things can be done better and one off training does not work. The knowledge and skills framework also highlights the role of leadership and sets out options to develop workforce competence through for example organisational training needs analysis and establishing effective workforce policy that translate new skills into practice and if I had my way this would be a mandatory requirement for all justice partners but while recognising it is for partners to develop training programmes to fit the needs of their workforce and service users nonetheless I would ask the Scottish Government to ensure justice partners are provided with the resources and support they need to deliver a contemporary whole system trauma informed approach to victims and witnesses. The Victims, Witnesses and Justice Bill, which members have comprehensively covered this afternoon will soon be the subject of parliamentary scrutiny and provide an opportunity to further consider this particular issue. Aspects of the bill are already proving contentious and not straightforward and it will be incumbent on us all to ensure robust scrutiny and strong debate takes place. However as the Reverend Kenneth Mackenzie reflected earlier today during time for reflection in this place where rhetoric matters it will also be our responsibility to take account of those sitting at the heart of everything we do victims, witnesses workers, children offenders and others. So when constructing our personal narratives and behaviours placing them front and centre so that we deliver a truly trauma responsive reformed justice system. Thank you. I now call Maggie Chapman who is joining us remotely to be followed by Megan Gallacher. Ms Chapman. Thank you Presiding Officer and can I refer colleagues to my register of interests? I would like to begin by expressing my heartfelt thanks to all those involved in supporting the path of survivors and victims of all forms of violence and those who witness such violence. Structural inequalities and intersectional layers of oppression mean that far too many people still are subjected to abuses of power that cause life changing sometimes life ending physical and mental harm and too many of these people go on to be re-traumatised by the system that should be providing solace, compassion and justice for all people. We often hear of the mind-blowing resilience of survivors and witnesses of the mutual support they can give each other when adequate resources allow for safe and confidential sharing of stories where they are believed and not judged. We should be truly grateful to all those who provide such safe spaces supporting victims, survivors and witnesses often putting their own wellbeing at risk. Vicarious trauma is real. Support victims, survivors and witnesses of violence are subjected to the risk of vicarious trauma on a daily basis. Those workers do phenomenally important work and are incredibly resilient. But we should not have to rely on the resilience of individuals. There is nothing inevitable about the violence that leads to trauma. It is a consequence of often intersecting inequalities. It is a direct result of imbalances of power and so our justice system ensures that it does not reinforce such imbalances of power in any element of its operation. That is why this debate and the legislation and why the trauma informed justice framework we discussed today are so important. I would like to put on record my thanks to the cabinet secretary and especially her predecessor Keith Brown for their determination and commitment to seeing the victims, witnesses and justice reform Scotland bill introduced. At its heart, this bill seeks to reorient our justice system towards compassion and care. To put victims, survivors and witnesses at its centre with a trauma informed approach embedded throughout. Trauma is complex and multifaceted. It incorporates both the experience of actual physical or emotional harm or threat and the whole context of that event or series of events and circumstances. It is contained within both the immediate experience of harm or threat and the longer term repercussions of that harm or threat, even if far removed or detached from it. As one person has put it when contributing to the significant work that has brought us to today, trauma and I quote, isn't just the event. The trauma is the whole process of the event, what comes after, whether that's police interview or court case or whatever so people shouldn't have smiths their part in that. The cabinet secretary and others have already outlined how much needs to change in our system to ensure that we do not, however inadvertently compound the injustices faced by victims, survivors and witnesses because any re-traumatisation is in itself an injustice. The victims, witnesses and justice reform Scotland bill, I hope will address some of the current issues, I welcome wholeheartedly on behalf of the Scottish Greens the aims of the bill to treat victims, survivors, witnesses and other vulnerable parties with compassion during their journeys throughout a reformed trauma informed justice system. I am very pleased to see at last proposals to protect victims and survivors of sexual and some other fences through an automatic lifelong right of anonymity. Similarly, I welcome the commitment to abolish the not proven verdict. Whilst this is one of the things that marks out as different the Scottish legal system it is clear that it has been disproportionately applied in crimes of sexual nature, 35% in trials for rape or attempted rape compared with just 17% in other cases. In line with our rights braced approach to policymaking it is right that we give survivors and indeed the perpetrators of these crimes the clarity of a binary verdict option guilty or not guilty. Scottish Greens have long called for the proper support for witnesses and complainers and I'm pleased that this legislation proposes an automatic right to state funded independent legal representation when applications are made to lead evidence of their sexual history in sexual offence cases. However, in my view this does not go far enough and I welcome the labour amendment on this. I do hope that during the forthcoming discussion on this legislation we can push this ILR further. I also welcome the establishment of a specialist sexual offences court and importantly as others have the shift in approach for supporting children and young people through the system. We have already heard about very strong views on the proposal to pilot single judge trials for rape and attempted rape cases. This proposal comes directly from Lady Dorian's report two years ago following calls for this from survivors and their support organisations. It is controversial, it is a marked departure from the status quo but given how the system is failing such departure is maybe necessary I will follow with interest this issue as the bill is scrutinised in the coming months. There are other elements in this bill and the wider framework that seek transformation but I want to raise just one notable issue not included that of the abolition of corroboration, that other distinct feature of the Scottish system and I want to thank Speak Out Sisters and others for their engagement on this issue. I'm sure that these conversations will continue. In closing I want to pay tribute to the efforts of many campaigners, activists, councillors advocacy workers, legal professionals and others who have worked tirelessly to ensure that our processes of justice better serve victims, witnesses and survivors. Thanks to the many survivors victims and their families who have continued to share their experiences to improve the justice system. This legislation and associated justice framework is a testament to your hard work. I hope that we can do you justice in the coming months. Thank you. Thank you Ms Chapman. I now call Megan Gallacher to be followed by Collette Stevenson. Over the last few years the complex challenges of the justice system have been widely discussed in this Parliament. The issues throughout the justice system and legal process are chronic and are in need of much needed improvement. A new approach to Scotland's justice system is not only important for those that encounter the justice system but for Scottish people to feel safer in their communities. There is agreement from all political parties that the process must be made easier and more supportive for victims. While parts of the Scottish Government's perceived new vision for the justice system seems to be promising steps in the right direction, they have been unremarkable in practice. Progress in delivering has been far greater, resulting in many victims continuously feeling let down or lacking in confidence in a justice system that is supposed to support them. The SNP's adopted soft touch justice approach clearly hasn't worked and I hope that this bill is not another document that will gather dust at the back of a shelf in a Government office. Because at the heart of this are victims. Victims who won't come forward to seek justice. Victims who feel that the justice system works against them rather than for them. One story that sticks in my mind is of a woman who had been sexually harassed by a sex pest telling a newspaper that she would not go to court if she knew her attacker would avoid jail. This is the reality of our current justice system. Victims anxious about going to court and fear that they won't see justice. With violent crime at its highest level since 2013, sexual crimes higher than any other year on record and domestic abuse incidents at their second worst level ever, it is no wonder that the justice system in Scotland has long been one that appears to favour the perpetrator over the victim. The Scottish Government must deliver a justice system that has a multifaceted approach with victims at the heart of it all. However, I am afraid that this Government has done little to reassure me at present that they can deliver this change. Delays and broken promises in delivering these vital changes to the justice system have left many victims or witnesses of crime being failed by the legal process. The negative experiences of those who have encountered the Scottish justice system are endless. Many victims have described feeling like they have no voice and have been re-traumatised or let down by the process. One report by Community Justice Scotland even referred to court as a theatre of shame for victims of crime, with some survivors having to relive their experiences of abuse often long after the crime occurred. I thank the member for giving way. I am just listening to her comments about some of the challenges of the Scottish justice system. Would she agree that those are not unique to the Scottish justice system and while I am not at all underplaying them, there is a lot of work to do. Other jurisdictions, for multifactorial reasons, face similar challenges. Myndi Gallagher. The SNP has been in government now for 15 years and you would think by now that they would have put the victims at the heart of their programme for government. We are seeing results now through this document. However, we have yet to see any real meaningful change for the victims within the judicial system. Although the framework is helpful, the Scottish Government could go further to support victims. Through the Scottish Conservatives victims law, victims will no longer be left in the dark as they will be given greater awareness to understand and utilise the processes that are there to support and protect them. Other proposals such as Michelle's law would ensure that the lived experiences of victims are heard and that they are considered at all stages of the justice system, enabling them to make targeted changes to transform their experiences. Reports from victims groups reiterate the importance of these trauma-focused approaches. For children and young people dealing with the justice system, that is of particular importance because they are at such an impressionable and developmental stage of their life. I am pleased that the framework mentions the experiences that children victims face especially when they are giving evidence. After all, there is the initial trauma of the crime committed against them, then there is the relive trauma of the child having to describe what happened. That is often repeated over the course of many years due to the length of the court proceedings. Therefore, I would seek reassurance from the Cabinet Secretary after, of course, welcoming her to our post today that she will continue to work with organisations to ensure that children feel supported when navigating the justice system. Having the essential services to decrease their risk of further trauma and serious long-term consequences I am sure that that is something that all MSPs will agree on, that a justice system that is trauma-informed will reassure victims that the Government is on their side. Until we see these meaningful changes, I am afraid that it is all just words. To conclude, the individualised experiences of the events or circumstances that determine is a traumatic highlight why the justice system must be trauma-focused preventing further harm to survivors of crime, unlike the case currently. A fundamental transformation of Scotland's justice system that moves away from the SNP's soft-touch approach, ensuring fair and transparent legal processes that better serve and protect victims, witnesses and vulnerable groups. In doing so, we can make Scotland's community safer and adapt to the needs of modern Scotland. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Gallacher. Collette Stevenson, who will be the final speaker before we move to closing speeches. Ms Stevenson. We all want a just, safe and resilient Scotland that puts victims and witnesses at the heart of the justice system. I welcome the publication of the trauma-informed justice framework and this alongside many of the things currently going through Parliament, including the victims, witnesses and justice reform bill will help transform the justice system. A key aim in the vision for justice in Scotland, published by the Scottish Government last year, is to have effective modern person-centred and trauma-informed approaches to justice in which everyone can have trust, including as victims those accused of crimes and as individuals in civil disputes. We have seen a growing focus on person-centred and trauma-informed services and that is very welcome, particularly in the justice system. As a member of the criminal justice committee I have heard lots of evidence over the past couple of years which reinforces my belief in making sure we do get trauma-informed practice absolutely right. Being a victim of crime can be traumatising but I have heard time and time again from constituents and witnesses at committee that going through the justice system can just be as bad. Victims and their representatives have told us that their experience of the justice system was just as traumatic as them being attacked or that they might avoid reporting offences in the future. As the trauma-informed justice framework sets out it is possible to reduce both the risk of re-traumatising people and the distress they may experience by understanding what they need to feel safe. Making the process predictable and understandable are empowering them to engage effectively. The victims, witnesses and justice reform bill is a landmark piece of legislation among the most significant since devolution. It will ensure fairness is cemented into the bedrock of Scotland's modern day justice system. It will move us closer to delivering person-centred trauma-informed practice across our justice services. The bill has a big package of measures which together will lead to a transformed approach in terms of how victims are treated with a more responsive and sensitive justice process. In particular, this will improve the experience of victims of sexual crime. In recognition of the complex and interlinked nature of the justice system, the bill makes related reforms to the justice size and the majority required for conviction. Those reforms are intended to increase confidence that verdicts are returned on a sound rational basis while ensuring balance and fairness to all parties. I also welcome the proposal to abolish the not-proven verdict and the pilots of single judge trials for rape and attempted rape cases. Legislative changes are important. Of course, we in this chamber make the laws that prosecutors and judges follow. What is also important is the support that the wider justice sector workforce has. We need to ensure that they receive the training they need and want and that they are supported to best carry out their roles. Police officers and support staff, employees of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and judges work day in and day out to deliver justice and support people through that as best as they can. They are not immune from the distress either. That is why the trauma informed justice framework is so important. It recognises these challenges and sets out the ways to recognise and understand the impact of trauma on witnesses and the workforce. Minimize the risk of harm and re-traumatisation to witnesses. Avoid interfering with witnesses' recovery from the impact of trauma where possible. Enable witnesses affected by trauma to participate effectively and to give best quality evidence and support the wellbeing and resilience of the workforce and be supported by trauma informed leadership and management. Those proposals build on the Scottish Government's record. In the last 15 years the SNP Government has promoted and delivered groundbreaking legislative reform improving victims' rights including the Victims and Witnesses Act 2014 which improved the support and information available to victims and witnesses of crime and introduced a range of rights for victims and our gold standard Domestic Abuse Act 2018 which brought together within one offence the modern understanding of what is domestic abuse including criminalising explicitly psychological domestic abuse such as coercive and controlling behaviour. At all levels of the justice system we must have an effective trauma informed approach which supports people at their most vulnerable. Every contact an individual has with the justice system can have a significant impact. The trauma informed justice framework as well as the victims, witnesses and justice reform bill will ensure victims are treated with compassion and their voices heard across the justice system and I fully support these initiatives. I call Pauline McNeill to close on behalf of Scottish Labour up to six minutes please Mrs McNeill. Thank you, I'm speaking in support of the amendment in my name. First I'm going to say the timetabling of the debate was pretty fast on the back of the publication of the report on Friday. If the minister can't take my point it's not ideal given the importance of it and the criminal justice committee have been released tomorrow a very important stage too. However, that being said Scottish Labour welcomes fully the publication of the trauma informed justice framework which seeks to ensure that our justice system not just introduced additional trauma into people's lives and avoid traumatisation. I welcome what the cabinet secretary said in an opening speech and hearing work done preparing witnesses for court is very important. During my career as an MSP as other members have already said in this debate I've been contacted by many victims and witnesses of crime over many years telling harrowing stories of their experiences within the criminal justice system. Victims who run into the accused in the lobby of the court totally unacceptable in any system. One victim only last month told me of the behaviour of defence counsel pointing to her in the public gallery during a sentencing trial a sentencing court I'm already taking this up with the faculty the dean of the faculty there must be accountability for things like this but there are not isolated incidents within the justice system delays to hearings being put at physical and mental risk during the court process and the impact on young children have all been highlighted as major problems in the current system in recent reports commissioned by the Scottish Government many members have spoken to that. Just last week the criminal justice committee published its post-legisl of scrutiny into the domestic abuse bill highlighting delays and specialist police Scotland training for officers on domestic abuse cases and asking for all officers to be trained in recognising the non-physical violent elements of that legislation but it's appreciated that it's a very new development in the law so I agree that it's about time that we ensure our justice system works for all and doesn't cost further harm and trauma to those who have experienced and witnessed crime it's not just the right thing to do but it's wholly necessary to ensure that victims and witnesses continue to come forward to report crime in the full knowledge is what we'd all hope for that they will be treated fairly and with relevant support we're committed to working in this Parliament to work together to deliver meaningful change these systems and practices and enable victims and witnesses of traumatic offences to participate in the legal process effectively I agreed with Pam Gossel earlier when she said it's also important to look at those whose language is not English and I hope we've come a long way since the Choker case in many years ago was exactly the point that the then Lord Advocate drew out that that family could not understand the process because it wasn't communicated to them in their own language and as Collette Stevenson rightly says it's so important that victims coming forward understand the full extent of the process going forward nonetheless it's clear that responding in a trauma informed way is not always sufficient for procedural justice the framework also needs to be considered alongside in addition to other work that will enable a fair and effective justice system I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary for Justice agrees that the reform of the justice system will only be successful if we also deal with the current financial pressures being properly addressed and that we fund services properly within the six aims identified in the framework we also need to have regular reports to Parliament as myself and Katie Clarkford have called in the past because the Government have continued to bring the court limits down as prescribed in the 95 act they are still far too as Jamie Greene highlighted it's outrageous that crimes such as rape are taking years to come to court I think that one way of checking that we are getting systematic progress in going back to the days where the 95 act is fully complied with and to see if we're genuinely making a progress there a recent report by the judicial attitude service found that nearly half of Scottish sheriffs and judges are concerned about the morale of court staff amid lengthy backlog so all those matters need to be addressed in looking at how we make our courts a better functioning system we also must ensure that the framework is not simply adding an additional level of bureaucracy on to an already stretched and understaffed justice workforce so I would appreciate it if in summing up the Cabinet Secretary on that I agree in principle with creating a trauma-informed justice system as the Scottish Government if they intend to monitor the effect of implementation of the framework across the sector to ensure that victims of witnesses across Scotland are receiving similar treatment when they come into contact with services a point that was also made by Claire Baker that if we're going to do it at all it has to be applied consistently equal access to justice into contact with the justice system is a hugely important component of any democratic society we must ensure that everyone who comes into contact with the justice system is treated fairly and equitably and that includes also those who are accused of a crime while awaiting a trial as Katie Clark said in her opening remarks and as we've addressed previously we think it's time for a form of legal representation for victims so we do support the provision in the bill but we do want to talk about how we could go further than that I've addressed the points about the framework today and not the wider legislative questions that I hope we'll get a chance to discuss in due course Katie Clark and Claire Baker in their contributions talked about the wider reform and have said and I support this view too that the Government must clearly set out when we get to the debate what our objectives are to clearly set out the aims and what the impact of what are substantial changes to our legal system are so that we can scrutinise these changes properly and if they are to be done it's very important that we take everybody with us if we make any changes thank you very much I now call on Russell Findlay to pose on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives up to seven minutes please thank you Mr Findlay to talk when it comes to putting victims and witnesses at the heart of the justice system they tell us that public protection is paramount yet police officer numbers are at the lowest in 15 years they insist that our officers are valued and supported yet police Scotland remains the only UK force without standard issue body worn cameras they say they care about domestic violence victims yet a pilot of fully virtual trials hailed as groundbreaking by then justice secretary Humza Yousaf just 24 actually take place they say they want to protect vulnerable female prisoners yet in the six months since opening two custody units in Glasgow and Dundee have never been more than half full they say they care about child victims and sex crime victims yet a child rape victim regrets seeking justice after her attacker was given community service I'm sure you get the idea I could go and I could fill six minutes with similar examples of the chasm between the SNP Government's PR handout and the reality for people across Scotland today in 2023 we hear the same painful stories from victims victims who say they are belittled, disrespected excluded, ignored dehumanised and retraumatised by the Scottish criminal justice system today's motion refers to a new NHS report titled trauma informed justice and knowledge and skills framework for working with victims and witnesses the crime victims and witnesses told the researchers that they experienced trauma in the process of being a witness that the criminal justice process worsened their trauma this hampered their recovery and put their lives in limbo as Jamie Greene acknowledged with the right support they could have provided better evidence and finally being a witness caused such distress that they would avoid reporting offences in the future that final point is damming it's a sobering report which confirms the same persistent issues I've been the victim of a serious crime I know how casually, thoughtless and infuriating the system can be my attackers in prison and the process of seeking parole and just a few weeks ago I had an unusual and unsettling experience a colleague answered my persistently ringing office phone here in Parliament and the caller was a criminal justice social worker who needed to speak with me urgently she was preparing a home background report in anticipation of my attackers eventual release she named my address and wanted me to confirm it she also wanted to know details of my surgeries but at most this information would be shared with my attacker I was sufficiently concerned to consider the call might even be bogus but it was real I'm grateful to the social worker who's doing a grand job in tough circumstances but I cannot help but suspect that the proactive approach I experienced is not typical for every victim I'm all for transparency Scotland's parole process remains stubbornly shrouded in secrecy victims should be entitled to know exactly what's going on and their views must be heard that should be a universal right not on some ad hoc unofficial basis it should be communicated clearly and cleanly now turning to some of today's other speakers Pam Gosol, Megan Gallacher Rona Mackay and others spoke about the difficulties still being experienced specifically by women and children and I think it's notable that 13 of today's 15 speakers are women Jamie Greene's amendment quite rightly challenges a worrying Scottish Government proposal around electronic monitoring the Government's bail and release from custody bill seeks to count two days an accused person spend subject to electronic bail monitoring because one day off an eventual prison sentence now we believe that is wrong it conflates bail conditions with sentencing to fundamentally different things and it's opposed by victim support Scotland we will be supporting the Labour amendment which raises several issues not least the perpetual problem of court delays now today's Government motion refers to more pending legislation victims, witnesses and justice reform I'm sure that Jamie Greene will be flattered that his name is so similar to his own victims bill Angela Constance tells us that this tribute bill will put and I quote victims and witnesses at the heart of the justice system we absolutely agree and we will support the Government motion by end on a note of caution we have heard all of this before we need less talk and more action Thank you Mr Finlay and I now call on Angela Constance Cabinet Secretary to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government and Cabinet Secretary if you could take us to decision time at five o'clock that would be helpful Thank you, Presiding Officer Can I start by thanking Dr Carling Bruce and her team Education Scotland for leading the work on the trauma-informed justice framework because it is vital to both the support for victims and witnesses as well as staff who work within justice Like Maggie Chapman most importantly I do however want to pay tribute to the victims survivors and their families those experts by experience who are informing every step of our journey to challenge and change a justice system that most members today have reflected leaves victims feeling unheard and can be an impenisable system where access to information is difficult and where victims often do not feel safe and are often not treated with compassion so everybody seems to agree that in the interest of embedding specialism and fairness and protecting balance in the interests of justice that we need to do better that we need to change I can't support the Conservative amendment tonight just simply because it pre-empts two sessions on stage two of the bail and release bill which will take place tomorrow and again next week but I suspect Mr Greene probably knew that when he penned his amendment I can also say to Megan Gallacher that when you get to my age I can assure you you are always in a hurry and that time and pace is always of the essence and I accept the remarks and concerns around court delays because justice delayed is of course justice denied and that's why we are investing this year alone £26 million to help reduce the court backlogs and we have seen the backlog in trials reduced by a third but of course as much more it needs to be done in terms of solemn and high court precedence I can also say to Jamie Greene and Pam Gossel that their proposals will indeed be given a fare here and by myself when they are published I have no reason not to be fair on this but I'm sure they will be looking at each and every piece of government legislation to see how they can amend as to their own desires and I can also say Presiding Officer that for the first time this government has published end to end journey times because I very firmly believe in transparency and shining a light on where more needs to be done in terms of other matters can I commend members for the range of issues that they have championed and raised today it is important that the debate around single judge trials doesn't drown out debate on the other matters within the victim witness and justice reform because a pilot of course is part of a much wider package Claire Baker raised a number of issues about the importance of clarity and setting out the case for sexual offences specialist courts and also the wide-ranging approach that we will take to measurements and evaluations whether that's around any pilot or indeed sexual offences courts and of course I think we will debate and discuss the detail in the months ahead of us as usual with Ms Baker on social take this as well that she raised in five minutes I would probably be here for 90 minutes I am pleased to say that I can support the amendment by the Labour Party tonight as a former criminal justice social worker I very much agree with the need to develop implementation and to co-operate with those who are working in the co-face and I take that very seriously in terms of engagement with all staff and all professions we do of course propose an expansion of independent legal representation both legislatively and are exploring wider provision in our discussions with the Emma Rich clinic and Beatrice Wishart was championed the Bairnshus movement and Ruth Gray made that link with other legislative measures that apply to our children and young people it is also important that the debate on single judge rape trials in itself should not be drowned out at this stage and Arona Mackay made the point that it is important that we listen to all the voices and debate and discuss all the evidence that we intend to proceed in that vein because the evidence is overwhelming that jurors preconceptions about rape and how those can be carried forward into deliberations and impact on verdicts which is not the case with other serious crimes but in due course I am sure will discuss and debate further the international evidence most of which have taken place in the last 20 years the diversity of juries has not overcome unfair influences and we have seen that and the independent Scottish jury research of course if you are very brief thank you I appreciate much of the focus on the issue of duralis trials but in Lady of the Orange recommendations she also made a number of very sensible suggestions as to how you could move outcomes in trials with juries and I wonder if the Government will be introducing them as well or instead of so this is a very important point that Jamie Greene makes because of the seriousness of sexual offending we do have to look at the justice journey from end to end and of course many of the matters raised in Lady of the Orange reviews some of which have already been taken forward by the judiciary I of course would say that this isn't necessarily an either or that my instinct every fibre of my instinct tells us that if we want seismic systemic change we need to be bringing all the potential solutions to the table not least that we of course need to be debating each and every potential solution in full I want to end with a quote actually from Lady of the Orange review she is reflecting on an earlier report from the Scottish law commission in 1983 where she is tracing the developments in law and where she says that despite some notable successes far too often the issues reported by complainers echo what has been said by complainers in sexual offences cases 20, 30 or even 40 years ago and she goes on to say that without profound reform there is a real possibility that our successors will be examining the same issues 40 years hence and the pledge I want to make to this chamber is not in my watch because notwithstanding that we are at the start of a process with the victims witness injustice reform bill and that that bill will inevitably look different than what it does at stage 1 but we have to ensure that the bill is better that the bill will actually take us forward and not back and that we need to get to a place where there is no more hand wringing and an acknowledgement that no part of our justice system is too complex or too sacred for scrutiny because we need to bequeath something far better and far fairer to both our daughters so it is time that we have the courage to acknowledge problems where they exist whether that is the long standing and significant disparity in conviction rates for rape and comparison to other offences and that we need to own these problems and that we need to seek to solve them admittedly even though there is no monopoly of wisdom and we need to have the courage to debate evidence such as soft touch justice in my view are soft and substance and dragged down the debate that we all seek to have and to those who oppose any aspect of the victim witnesses injustice reform bill my challenge to you is if not this what and if not now when so it is time that we move forward in this debate that concludes the debate on transforming justice in Scotland person-centred and trauma-informed approaches for victims and witnesses it is now time to move on to the next item of business and there are four questions to be put as a result of today's business the first question is that motion 8864 in the name of Humza Yousaf on the coronation of King Charles III and the Queen be agreed are we all agreed the motion is therefore agreed the next question is that amendment 8865.1 in the name of Jamie Greene which seeks to amend motion 8865 in the name of Angela Constance on transforming justice in Scotland person-centred and trauma-informed approaches for victims and witnesses be agreed are we all agreed the Parliament is not agreed and we will have a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system before we move to vote