 Wel, avery good morning to you. Thank you so much for sticking with us. This is still Y in the morning. My name is Ram Aguco. It's a pleasure being with you today on this fine Tuesday morning. And of course we are coming to you live from the broadcasting house as I always tell you, this show always streams through our website. That's at www.kbc.co.kefor slash Y254. Of course welcome to Y in the morning. Today let's have an interesting discussion here and what we'll talk about is matters concerning relationships on this fine Tuesday morning and specifically abuse in relationships. How can you fight such kind of things? Fighting abuse, carving abuse. We need to have a discussion about you. Have you been abused in your relationship? What are you doing about it? Are you afraid of seeking counseling or seeking help? Are you afraid or ashamed of what happened to you because of the abuse and the trauma that you went through? Today we want to help you hear right here on this particular discussion because this show is for you and to help us in this discussion I am with Inchabere Muriuki. He is a psychologist and a counselor. Welcome my brother. Thank you. How are you feeling today? I'm calm. I love that. That's the best answer yet. I've never received that answer. How are you feeling? I'm calm. I love that. You addressed feelings and I went straight to the feeling. Feelings don't have explanation. Wow. Most people say how are you feeling? I'm fine. Thank you. That's not a feeling. Because you're giving a sentence. A feeling should be either calm, joy, happiness, sad, hungry, tired, thirsty. I love that. Ladies and gentlemen, even as we talk about this particular discussion, abuse in relationships, engage with us. The ashtag as always is why in the morning tag me at Ram Maguko which is my handle. The official session handle is at Y254 channel. That's where you can be able to engage with us and feel free to also let us know where you're watching us from. And of course we shall sample your feedback a bit later on during this discussion right here on why in the morning abuse in relationships in Jabere. Yes. We've handled these cases so many times, I believe so. Now, let's start from the roots. Okay. From the root because I believe that for you to handle a problem you must address it from the root. That's actually what's the work of a psychologist. We don't treat, we don't address, we don't intervene on the symptoms. We look at the root. Once we sort the cause, the problem goes forever. What is it that leads to abuse in a relationship? Let's start from the root cause. Before someone finds themselves there, someone asks themselves this question. How did I find myself here? How did I end up here? Did I end up in an abusive relationship? What is the root? I will start first of all with the abuser then I'll run to the abused. Okay. Now, we all grow or we all grow in an environment. The environment that we grow in determines the behavior. Remember, behavior is land. Yes, it's land. Our behavior is land. Now, when we learn, the greatest and the easiest way to learn a behavior is through observation. If you have seen children, they are very observant. A daughter will watch the mother do a lipstick and do a thing. And by the time the mother comes back, the whole place is colored as the child was trying to role model. What was modeled to her. Now, that is the first sport. Did I grow in an abusive environment myself? That's the abuser. So, I know the best way to be had, the best way to express myself in this form of engagement is to use force. For example, is to demean the other person. For example, it can be as subtle as you may think. That's what I went through. That's what the environment that I grew up in. So, it became a normal thing in my life. That is one. So, when I will relate, I will connect with another person who was equally abused. Who grew in that environment. We attract our own. So, is it possible that we will find two people who grew up in abusive environments getting along? Not is it possible. It is the order of the day. So, let me get you very clearly here. Two people who have both grown up in abusive environments can get along as opposed to one who grew up in an abusive environment and one who didn't. The chances of... Let me give an example of me and you. Of course, we are males, so let them not take that this other route of discussion. We are just using for this purpose. Please, people. Let's assume you're the lady. I grew up seeing my father abusing either physically, emotionally, verbally, or psychologically. My mother. When we relate, start relating with you. Chances are you grew up where emotional and all these abuses in relationship were not the issue. And people discuss issues. We will not go far. We will not go far. We won't go far because you can't condone. Abuse. Abuse. It was not a part of your living. I will try to shash you up. I will try to muscle you up. But I will refuse you to be shashed. You will stand up. You will tell me off. Now, abuses, fear. Are the most weak people I've ever met. Yes. They are the weakest of creatures, of people, or human beings. Abuses are weak. You only need to learn them. So they can't stand. You're standing up. They will label you. Now, I will label you as a woman. When you are arrogant, you proud, you've got money. And then we will cut off. It is not because of the things I'm trying to label you. It's because your environment and my environment can't sink. We attract our own. Check our relationships. That's what I deal with them like every day. Nantipere, you said one very strong statement. That can make someone think and think a lot. You said we attract our own. Yes. You attract what and who you are. That's what you've said. I can repeat that louder. If someone finds themselves in an abusive relationship, they do not grow up in such an environment. But this is their husband. This is someone that they have accepted as one of themselves. I didn't get too well. They didn't grow in an abusive environment. They did not grow in an abusive environment. This lady has accepted this man and believes that she will make him change. He will change. One day he will stop. Or she believes that it's just a sign of love. But it doesn't mean he hates me. He loves me. But she finds herself in that position and at some point there are those days that she hates the fact that this man abuses her. Does it mean that she deserves what she's getting? Because you've said you attract who you are. I will disqualify the word deserves. There's no one who deserves violence. Okay. I will go to the other word that you said. I will change the person. Yes. Get it from me today. It is impossible to change a human being. We change or we encounter change because it is a thing and around us for example I come from a community the Meru community. Men don't enter the kitchen. Men don't enter the kitchen? Tafadali. However in some instances when mam was not in dad in a silence where he would go and cook for us and do a few things for us Even though he doesn't accept? It is very easy for me to do equally the same. Now when I hear people in relationships say it is okay it's a matter of time I will change it. They walk back into therapy as couples and when I listen to the problem I will mention the simplest problem not abuse I will only say alcohol She finds me drinking and she says she will change. It becomes the cause and the main source of their disputes many years after. When they come into therapy I walk back to the route I am simple left with one question to the couple when you started was this a problem? Yes. How come now it's a major problem then when you started that's when you had a chance to run away that's when you had a chance to stop it so it grows so when an idiot notices a problem in the start of their relationship and that person decides for the sake of love let me do this we will change along the line exactly I am here to inform them they are in for a root shock a root one a very root shock these things you see them these things address them before the relationships get to a point that you can't turn back and that's the point where you say I do sometimes we are here we are 20 years in marriage children are involved a lot of things are involved I am counseling so many people in divorce journey I can't tell you I have met painful things but separation through divorce is painful no one wants to go through that yes and the magnitude of that pain does not only affect the asba than the wife children, uncles, aunts, relatives in laws everybody friends even young people they are people who look up at you it's so so painful before we get there say no run and the joke in the market is if you can run when there is time run we are still talking about the root that's where we are before we come to let's talk about the root and this is where you will solve your problems if you are watching today this is where you will get a solution before before poverty knocks at your door I am looking at the root cause don't think you will change him to look at the background very important now sometimes you may not know the environment someone grew up in and you may not be able to establish whether they have abusive tendencies I disagree 100% I disagree okay let me proceed you will tell him about that there are people who say that I never knew he was like this I never knew he was like this and they say this person has changed that's where I want you to address what is it that someone missed is there a step they missed that you don't know something about them and then you realize that this is the kind of person that I'm married to mistake number one people dating and people getting into a relationship we want first of all to enter into a relationship and we want two once we enter into this relationship we want a position that we are not just knowing each other but we are at the center of it we are specializing I will explain when two people meet it is not a business of meeting today and tomorrow we are living together there are processes is absolutely and this journey is not not at two people journey it has not been it will not be I think not only in Kenya maybe it involves parents it involves uncles it involves other people yes community yes now I will accept I am a young person I am in my 25 I am in my 27 I have met you my girlfriend we are young there are some small little things that may pass me but the moment I introduce you to my auntie my senior auntie she may ask a simple question that will shed light on our identities exactly no one came from nowhere everybody ask a root that is why it is important for us to involve other elder people friends serious friends no it is not it will not remain long as a secret so when we start this journey there are things that may happen and I will give a very small example maybe you are meeting your uncle your relative or a friend who is very close or older and you were with your partner your friend even your girlfriend and you are here the other person ask you why did I see so and so behaving that way yes that is something to make you stop slow down and get to know so the question of I didn't know they were not like this will be exposed now the problem is we start we specialize because now we are husband and wife we have been living together and by the time we go to say as we are telling them you have only one option to accept us to marry we have been together for the last two years and because it's a do or die situation others even threaten their people then you are given the chance to marry and when you enter into it you find now are you saying that you need a third eye sometimes for you to discern the kind of person you are engaged with we are a mirror to everybody you are a mirror to somebody I am a mirror to somebody no one sees themselves we portray ourselves to people and they speak what they see about us so someone may pick something very critical that you have never seen about the other person and if you follow it up you realize shit let's slow down first you may find people and I know this a very controversial statement I am about to make that in the family are certain diseases and you get into you need to go in knowing I am ready for this this is what we will get and these are the chances I have chosen I have decided now let's take it a notch up a notch higher this particular lady knows that this man can beat me up she knows that this man can slap me anytime when I say mam kono ni he will piss me say that again she knows that this man if pushed to the corner will scratch you but now she says that is just who he is she knowingly gets into that relationship or this man knows and I am very careful because I know gender issues are also going to take a role here I am very careful even when I ask this question because there are abusive women too yes they are so this man knows that this woman if pushed to a corner she knows anytime when you get into an abusive relationship knowingly what do you do to bring calmness there and what do you do when problems arise that might make you end up being beaten ok I knew of this person you male or female when you in such a relationship you are always walking on eggshells always always you know if I cross here this is what I will get now I will say because you knew drink your cup you knew you chose it and you knew that I am willing and ready to live with this meaning there are spaces you can't dialogue together meaning there are moments you can't be able to stop some actions meaning you can say no respect end and this is on both ends then because it was a choice it becomes very simple live with it now you also asked how do they resolve problems or conflicts one of them is you keep begging the other person you cannot call out the abuser should not but you know you know what you shall get utamugiwa majimoto utafungiwa inje my god you know you can't get home past 6pm so if you know that this is an abusive person avoid some discussions avoid doing some things because because you will pay the cost and you knew and you chose now that gets to a point the unfortunate thing it is not guaranteed and it can't be sustainable for a long time so if you are not married to that person and you know this is the position that you are in leave that relation absolutely run when you can and if you are married to that person eventually the abused will get tired because you can't be doing this this cutting mouse eventually you get tired of running and the day you cross the barrier you will get you will be beaten now when that can't be sustained the only option is the divorce cases that are too high and now separation works in and like I said earlier then you affect other people and children are the great casualties of this business so and it is I can't advise anyone if you know this is the issue I can't advise anyone to join an abusive relationship even for a microsecond don't if you know you also come maybe let me point out if you know you come from an environment or a space that you grew up in a abusive environment the first business that you need to do is to seek therapy is to seek help is to seek intervention now as you seek that do you seek it before you get into our before and I used a word if you are aware that you come from this kind of a family you must be aware and we know our family we drunkards our family no one is married we don't stay in the marriage we know these things but we take them lightly and sometimes we see them as it's part of it that is what I'm saying when you see this our family we are very possessive that's an abuse you need to be free I don't need to come to the show and my partner needs to be seated there so that she can approve or she can watch over me and she feels secure exactly so when all these things are key to you the thing that you need to do is to seek help before even you enter into the relationships because if I come from that it will manifest itself in the relationship and it will affect the relationship it will affect okay wow wow so I have so many questions and I'm asking for person who is changing can they you find this scenario where a woman is being told by the man that I do not want to beat you sitaki kukupiga and the man says that I am willing to go for cancelling so that I can handle my issues so that I can know how to treat you better that's a tricky one now that they are into into their marriage they are into their relationship and the abuse has taken place and the person says they are willing they want to work themselves out of where they are yes it is doable but it is tricky yes it is very tricky it has to involve a lot of work and the abuser must demonstrate to the therapist or to me if they came to me that the parameters and the structures that we put into place so that they can be able to start changing the land behavior into a new land behavior because behaviors land re-land and unland so another one to be land then they must be willing to kill the past and get born to this other one the worst thing and the most and that's why I said it's very tricky our minds are used to patterns and it is quite some work to stop the pattern so you must be alive to the fact that I want to transform myself from my past in a scale of 10 maybe 2 or 3 can work that's why I said it's tricky it's not simple so that's why I said if we started a journey before you got married that could have been a little bit better but when you are into it you have to be restrained well you have to work through yourself not the abused the abuser has to work through themselves with the work of now the therapist or the counselor apa kwa hapa for them to be able they must understand what triggers me what's my problem when do I do it how can I run away from the triggers when now we get there now that's the time I start dealing with the abused now let's talk about the abused I mean the abuser still it has never happened in this relationship where this woman was slapped or beaten it has never happened and every time of course arguments come arguments go it has never been physical but one day something happened and the man raised his hand and slapped this woman one day something happened let's talk about this now the woman is shocked ei leon na pigwa sija wa ii pigwa tangutu kwen awyumtu let's talk about that cool the lady needs to seek therapy immediately so that as a therapist I can be able to establish is it a one of is it a volcano that has gotten to the right time to erupt is it that it is a behavior that has been unconscious and time is ready for it or it is just that you are at the war when I establish those things then the one who hit the abuser needs to be ready to also face therapy so that I can go back in line and get because because it is not just not just a coincidence did you have you ever are you shrouded by friends people environment things that make you feel it is okay if and some most common question I ask the abuser if you are given equal and given the same environment pushed to the same level would you have slapped them let me put it better I am so annoyed with you we are men and you have pushed me to the war die have slapped you let me ask in Jabari at what point should you distinguish between just some conflict between two places an isolated case because maybe it just got intense and they don't always get physical and at this point it became physical but that's not the normal I'm asking a question to you yes do abusers either male or female get issues and times with other people not their partners do they well I believe it's with their partners that they should be getting let me put it this way you are my friend we are doing a business and something went wrong and we have a serious heated argument who did have added into physical if yes how often because also it is important for us to realize it is a case of a weak and a stronger individual if it is my equal whom I know I slap you you will slap me back how fast will die have done it that's the question I'm pushing so are you beating them because they cannot beat you back that is the point so when I establish all those things then that is when I can be able to say true it is what you say but if it's a case whereby you have slapped your partner you've punched them because of anger would you have punched your boss because you annoyed with him you wouldn't if you wouldn't then it's not a case of anger it's a case of strong weak engagement should we term that as abuse yes it is because I know I am stronger you've answered well if it were your boss you could not have slapped them now I want us to move to yet another group another angle of this discussion here and I always talk about the abused you've addressed the abuser let's talk about the abused there has to be that recovery process that they are going through and of course as psychologists you've taken people through that that process for somebody who has been abused how can they heal unfortunately most times when you are with the abuser healing becomes almost impossible what do you mean when you are with are you saying when you live together or if you meet exactly so you should avoid meeting them it's the easiest and the best way to deal with the problem and sir I said it would have been better to deal with the problem before the relationship was because it has other things involved into it simple you come to therapy today man and we walk a journey you feel energized and encouraged you see your mistakes you are ready to keep off and you walk home before 6 sababu past 6 u li kwa wa pina malaya ok and you walk in and she sniffs you come on you usininda ganyu li kwa job ebunia mbi ni ngonbe ganyu li kwa naio ni niku kwa satiako you are coming from therapy you are ready to start a different journey give me the chances of you starting that journey there zero zero wouldn't happen and we meet once a week and for the next 6 days you are at a space where you are under pressure so what does that mean when I say that sometimes very very difficult to help someone who is still in the abuse and that's why we request if it is possible when we discover they are together the abuser to also attend therapy most of the time they don't want most of the time the abuse to come in secret our taki kujulikana ya ni ulianda kwa gaya vitu sa nyumbaya tu kwa monoma mungine ebunia mbi what relationship is that to that man ya ni muli kwa kwa rum pamodya mulango li fuku mefungo do you realize the thing has been turned around the answer has been the answer and they tell you we can solve our issues no kiyongiasa na kubangia mesa how can we solve the point is clear it's a bit difficult to address the problem when it is ongoing you had me say alia it takes a lot of energy for the abuser to turn around a lot of deliberate moves a lot of self-cancel to turn around as an abuser so yes it can work however it is hard work when the abuser is willing to work and the abuser is not it has to be a journey that they both need to take part in very and that's before when you say something I know I could be talking to many young people right now it is important for them to seek premarital canceling very very important and I'm not trying to stop the one they go to church they still have to do that but they need not less than 3 months of constant cancel this is where I will help them see and ask questions do you realize you partner I've got anger issues and then you tell me yes and then I post questions are you ready suppose it erupts are you ready to deal with and if you say yes I am okay because I brought it to you in awareness I want to take a short break and then after this break this is a discussion that you really need to keep on engaging with us are you in an abusive relationship after this break as I was mentioning let's talk about how can I get out of an abusive relationship getting out is a problem here big problem how can they get out and what happens after they are out is that so? we will walk into it after this break we are talking about abuse in relationships keep engaging with us we are taking a short break and we will be back this is why in the morning