 Welcome to the Asian Review. I'm your host Bill Sharp. Our show today is Cold War Medicine in East Asia. Joining us via Skype from the Institute of Taiwan History at Academia Seneca in Taipei, Taiwan, is Dr. Michael Liu, Deputy Director of the Institute of Taiwan History. Dr. Liu is a highly accomplished researcher whose research is taking him to many parts of the world. Welcome to the Asian Review. It's great to have you, especially since you're such a busy man traveling here, there, everywhere, in Taiwan, outside of Taiwan, to America, to Japan. You're really pretty hard to nail down. Well, thanks, Bill, for inviting me to join your show. Well, it's part of my work and it's part of my research. Great, great. Well, now, we have a very savvy group of viewers, but some folks might not be familiar with Academia Seneca. So, could you explain just a little bit about how it got started and what its mission is? Okay, our Academia Seneca was established in 1928. Well, basically, it was a design, tried to copy that current French system to build the Academia Seneca as the highest research institute, not only the thin tank, but also the institute to promote a lot of basic research for so-called modernized China. Therefore, in Academia Seneca, we have a lot of basic research, not only focusing on the applied science. Well, the person who started Academia Seneca was a very famous person in Chinese history, right? Who sure? No, he's not a funder of Academia Seneca. The first person is Taiyuan Pei, but Dr. Hu Shi was a very important person to bring Academia Seneca from mainland China to Taiwan. Okay, and of course Taiyuan Pei was very famous in and of his own right. Okay, great. Well, just for the benefit of our audience mention some of the institutes at Academia Seneca. Well, currently, we have an 18 research institute and divided by three groups. The bioscience, the natural science with mathematics, and also humanity and social science. Great, great, great. The president, the Yuan Zhang of Academia Seneca is actually appointed by the president of Taiwan, isn't he? Yes, indeed. And he enjoyed the equal strategy with others Yuan Zhang, like the executive Yuan or other legislation Yuan. It's a very high it's really highest prestigious status in our government. Right, right, yeah. And Academia Seneca is a very prestigious institute. I'm so fortunate to have been able to spend a year there and hope to spend another. Yeah, actually, we welcome your return. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Well, we should probably talk a little bit about how Academia Seneca is funded because I know some of my listeners are going to be thinking, well, how is this prestigious research institute and think tank funded? So can you give us some idea about how that works? Yeah, well, basically, Academia Seneca steadily received a governmental budget. However, all the researchers has the right to apply it outside of funding either from the government or from the private sectors. We also received some research donation from the private foundation including domestic and also abroad. Great, great. Well, now let's move to the Institute of Taiwan History with which, of course, you're the most familiar with and tell us a little bit about how that got started and what its mission is and what it seeks to do. Okay, well, my institute was established in 1993 on the preparatory office basis. Well, as people know, in 1990s, there's a trend that in our society tried to promote knowing Taiwan either from the angle of sociology or political science. However, from the historical angles was the most popular one. So in 1993, Academia Seneca decided to prepare to set up an office for my institute. After 20 years, my institute was officially established in 2003. I see. Was it, Chen Chui-bian himself played a very instrumental role in founding the institute, didn't he? Yeah. Well, during the Chen Chui-bian's regime, my institute was greatly expanded to touch a lot of research fields that we haven't been touched before. And we also, we were also encouraging to promote our international status during his regime. In the meantime, anything that dealt with Taiwanese history, Taiwanese issues were so suppressed, and Chen Chui-bian really wanted to bring that out and give that attention. Right, indeed. Well, as people know, the study of Taiwanese history compared to international society was not a significant one. However, it was very important to the Taiwanese population. So during the Chen Chui-bian's government, he tried to promote the study of not only the Taiwan history, but also the Taiwan studies. And this policy has been continued by the Ma Ying-jeou's government. Although the direction, the support direction slightly changed to focusing on the relationship between Taiwan and China. But the main focus haven't been changed since Chen Chui-bian's government. Great. Good. Well, now let's... You had a book that came out previously called Prescribing Colonization, the Role of Medical Practices and Policies in Japan Rule Taiwan, 1895 to 1945. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that book? Okay, that is the book published by the Association for Asian Studies in the United States. And the book focusing on how Japanese convert the western medicine for the youth in colonial Taiwan. Well, my argument is that, well, in 1870s, Japan first westernized its medical systems by copying the German system. However, the German medicine only bring the concept of a start medicine in German that state medicine. And Germany doesn't have the chance to bring its very own design for colonial medicine to Japan. However, the Japan occupied Taiwan in 1875, sorry, 1895. So it left Japan has no time to learn to colonial medicine from Britain. So the Japan has to come up with a very own idea to mix up its traditional medical practice with the German medicine and parts of the British medicine in India to create its very own Japanese colonial medicine. My book is talking about the whole process and how the transformation of from the German state medicine to very old Japanese colonial medicine using Taiwan as the laboratory basis. So what you said is interesting about the British practice of medicine in India. So in a way Japanese colonial medicine sought to bring together German state medicine and British colonial medicine in India. Do I have that right? That's really interesting. German medicine is very centralized. However, the Japanese government especially before the 1930s doesn't have such manpower or enough financial support to create such a centralized medical service in Taiwan. So the government, the government has to learn something from the British experience in India. But not totally because the Japan empire is still quite focusing on how to centralize its colonial power. Really interesting. And of course Japan always looked at Taiwan as a kind of a model colony and if it could develop it as a model it felt that its, how should you say, its conquest of Southeast Asia would be a lot easier. Well, based on the medical service in Taiwan it's not only created very unique Japanese colonial medicine models but it also spread this Taiwanese model to Korea after 1911. And even try to spread the same design after Japan moved southward to eastern Asia. Especially there are several designs we can focus on. The first one is the so-called public medical services by using the local medical manpower. And the other one is focusing on the public health rather than bringing in the skill for medical practitioners. It's significant, this kind of a design significantly reduced the financial burden of colonial government but it reached a very high achievement. So actually Korea, even though it was a colony at that time it benefited from the medical practices developed in Taiwan. Yes, yes. Especially the public medical service system. So when Japan first came to Taiwan to take control of Taiwan in 1895 prevailing diseases that they really had to deal with. Okay, malaria was very severe since the very beginning. However, the Japanese doesn't have any experience to deal with this endemic illness. So they first built people's confidence on their modern medical power. Eliminate plague and cholera. This is one of the most famous epidemics. And this is a strategy not only win the Taiwan's confidence in Japanese medicine but also win the Japanese medical circle high reputation from its international counterparts. Was there any kind of Chinese medicine woven into Japanese colonial medicine? Yeah, that's a very tricky question here. That's one of the questions we want to totally convert or suppress the traditional Chinese medicine in Taiwan. Because the Chinese medicine meant to the Japanese empire was outdated. So the modern western medicine was brought in as an excuse to modernize Taiwan. Not colonize Taiwan. Soon after the Japanese occupied Taiwan, the colonial government realized they still have to rely on the people who used the traditional medicine to cure the population. In the first decades, the Japanese government tried to negotiate with these traditional medical practitioners and eventually convert their practice to the modern medicine. I also found that the second or third generation of these traditional Chinese medical practitioners their descendants was accept by the colonial medical school and eventually became the western doctor. We're going to go to break now and when we come back we want to really get to the essence of your more contemporary research which deals with exactly what the title of today's show is, the Cold War Medicine in Asia. So you're watching Asia in Review. I'm interviewing Dr. Michael Liu, Deputy Director of the Institute of Taiwan History at Academia Seneca in Taiwan and we'll be right back. Hey, has your signal just been taken over or am I supposed to be here? This is Andrew, the security guy, your co-host on Hibachi Talk. Please join us every Friday I'm Carol Mon Lee and I want to welcome you to our newest series called Education Matters where we will explore education related topics that touch everyone, not just formal programs in K-12 and higher education, but also broader issues and information that affect our community. My name is Calvin Griffin, host of Military in Hawaii which airs here on Think Tech Hawaii every Friday at 11 a.m. Please join us, we'll be talking about issues concerning our military, veterans community and other related issues that concern all of us. Aloha, this is Kili Akinna with the weekly Ehana Kako. Let's work together program on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network Mondays at 2 o'clock p.m. Movers and shakers and great ideas. Join us. We'll see you then. Aloha. Welcome back to Asia in Review. I'm your host Bill Sharp. My guest today is Dr. Michael Liu, Deputy Director of the Institute of Taiwan History Academy of Seneca in Taiwan. He's coming to us via Skype from Taiwan and we've been talking about Academy of Seneca. What is it? How did it get started? What the Institute of Taiwan History seeks to achieve? I also talked about a book that he wrote concerning the medical practices of the Japanese colonial government when Taiwan was a Japanese colony from 1895 to 1945. We want to move on now and we want to talk about his most contemporary research which deals with the Cold War medicine in Asia and the specific role of Taiwan in that. So give us a sort of an overview here. Okay, well before I directly touch the topic, I'd like to bring some historical background about the research I'm doing now. Sure. Well, in 1949 that the national government was retreated was retreating to Taiwan because the government was defeated by the communist government at the time. However, from the viewpoint of American government, they still try to preserve their benefit or their connections with the Chinese government, either the nationalist one or the communist one. So when the nationalist government moved to Taiwan, it still struggled. It was just struggling to regain the support from the American government. However, as we all know, the communist government doesn't want to cooperate with the American government in the 1950s and the situation getting worse after the outbreak of the Korean war. So my research is going to focusing on how American government convert its relationship with the former enemy that's Japan and using Taiwan as the little China to spread it out its experience during the Second World War to cooperate with the national government in mainland to lay out the foundation for its international medical aid in Cold War Eastern Asia. So that's very interesting. If I understood you right, the U.S. was cooperating with Japan on medical issues and to develop medicine that could be used in China, is that right? That's very interesting because the Japanese, some of their medical experimentation during World War II, especially in northeast China was, I would think, not a model. There was one thing that a lot of historians of Cold War history has been overlooked. Basically, we are transferring the experience in Europe, but in eastern Asia or in Asia. Let me think of that. In 1950s, we have a Korean War. In 60s, we have a Vietnam war. So the Cold War never caught in eastern Asia. So the United government really needs something they can realize, they can learn from their historical experience. And that is military medicine that developed from the cooperation between Chinese government and American government in 1940s. So actually the international health aid or international medical aid under the American Cold War policy was actually based on the military medicine experience during the 1940s. However it also comes from China. But in 1950s, as I said, the national government became relatively weak and cannot control the mainland China. So the American State Department decided to switch its coordinator in Asia from China. That is Taiwan probably, but it's a former enemy, the Japan So since the 1951, we thought Japan became a medical logistic supplier to the Korean War. And in the 1960s, the Japan became the biggest investor to the medical development especially pharmaceutical industry in Taiwan to support the military need especially the American soldiers need in Vietnam war. During the Vietnam War in 1960s to 1970s. I never knew that. I don't know, that's very interesting. A lot of antibiotics medicine actually was produced in Taiwan and the pharmaceutical company actually was totally under the control of a Japanese pharmaceutical company but funded by American money. As I understand it, there's a lot of tie ups even today between Japanese pharmaceutical companies and pharmaceutical companies in Taiwan. There's a lot of cooperation and if I go to a drug store in Taiwan and buy some sort of medicine it almost looks and feels Japanese to me. Yes, indeed. Because of all this phenomenon, I give a hypothesis that actually the Cold War medicine under American policy actually extended the Japanese colonial medicine to 1970s. Even the Japanese Empire was defeated in 1945. So the framework of colonial medicine has been prolonged during the Cold War situation in East Asia. Interesting, very interesting. Wow. So now what are you going to do with your research? Are you hoping to write another book or this is going to be for some paper that you present at a conference? What's the goal? Okay, well in fact I have already published two articles about this topic. Right now since my work in Johns Hopkins, I still try to finish my book manuscript because that is the way I can make all story clear to the readership. That's great. Wow. So you've published two papers but is there a book coming? Not that soon because I still deal with some statistics issues compared to the pre-war period especially the situation in mainland China. I have to deal with a lot of demographic data and that is something I need time to calculate to aggregate with data and go through the analysis. It probably will still take one or two years to finish the book manuscript. Right. It's a slow process as I found out. That would be interesting. Now you mentioned South Pacific were these policies or the Japanese medicine developed in Taiwan, was it also used in the South Pacific? Yes, a little bit. Especially when we considered the WHO-Western Pacific original office was established in 1951 and in the very beginning the American experts actually fully occupied the regional office in Manila nowadays. But soon after that under a special very unique program called Economic Assistance Program that Japanese expert of former colonial medicine was recruited by the regional office as their new regional expert. The situation to me became very interesting that how this Japanese expert was retrained by American subsidized program and again circulate in this region as their predecessors before 1945. That's very interesting. We're down to maybe our last few minutes here. A lot of people when they think of Taiwan, when they think of medicine, they think about their Taiwan national health plan which is a model national health plan. I was thinking in the last few minutes that we have here it might be worth saying a few things about that since it's a highly respected health plan. Does the health plan benefit from any of the, how should I say from the Japanese model? I mean because Japan has a very good national health model as well. That in contemporary Taiwan did contemporary Taiwan borrow a lot from the Japanese national health plan? Well it depends on how we define it. We have been benefit from the Japanese assistant. In colonial period we have as I say the public medical service but it's not that important during the time. But it brings up the confidence for the society and also a face that the medical service should be merciful work the government should carry out. So from the kind of a social face when the Taiwanese government try to promote the national health insurance program in 1980s it became a very welcome plan. And even the medical practitioner they were willing to sacrifice some of their even revenue and their privilege to support this program. I see. Well you know the clock is sort of caught up with us again the clock is so unforgiving and I'm afraid that we're going to have to end here but I want to thank you for joining us today and certainly for your input and I'm sure that we've all learned a lot and I want to thank the audience for watching and I want to ask you to join me again next week when my guest will be Mr. Eric Wong who is the spokesperson for the Chinese Nationalist Party who currently is a graduate student in Washington D.C. So we'll see you then. Thank you. One second.