 Joey, so I've been having a look at your social media. They've been fascinating just how much of a following you have. Just tell me how important is it to use social media to get more people to become vegan? Well it's one of the most important things we have as a way of sort of advertising this message. If we didn't have social media there would be no movement because we just mathematically it would be impossible. Industry has a lot of advertising money and they really spend a lot on it. So with social media anyone can be a journalist, anyone can spread videos and messages and when your message is true and people look into it and research it it's got credibility and that's how you develop a following I suppose. And what about for your younger audiences because obviously they're on Instagram, they're listening to your messages. How do you find that? Social media is the new TV and most people just want to see a one-minute video on their Instagram feed. YouTube is more watched I'd say than some TV channels and it's just huge. It's the most powerful thing we have in the movement and it's fantastic. So I was looking at your Instagram page. Some of the messages that you have where you compare livestock markets to the slave trade you suggest that if you're not vegan that means that you support animal abuse. Do you think that's the right message? Yes it is and it's not comparing to the slave trade, it is a slave trade. Animals are enslaved, they don't have no liberty, no freedom, they're sold as property. It's a slave trade and animals are slaves so I say what's objectively true and if you're not vegan you by virtue of supply and demand support animal abuse so it's an objectively true statement. Sometimes the truth is a little bit uncomfortable but I'm not in the business of making people comfortable I'm in the business of defending animals. But do you not feel that comparing livestock markets to the slave trade is in a way insulting to black ancestry suffering of the slave trade? Not at all, not at all. If your ancestors have been enslaved then you could recognise slavery in another species. But you're comparing the human slavery of people? No I'm not. No I'm saying that animals are enslaved and live auctions are the slave trade. In its own right. I didn't say here's the transatlantic slave trade and here's the animal slave trade, I said live auctions are the slave trade. They're a slave trade. Now it's interesting because your demeanour is in a way very aggressive I would suggest just the way that you put your message across. You've been on some of the morning TV shows in the UK with Piers Morgan as one. Do you think this is the right attitude? Isn't there going to be a point where you alienate people because of your aggressive nature that we're trying to bring the message across? No and being aggressive is subjective. People are going to say that you're aggressive even if you're really softly spoken but if you say something that's uncomfortable and people are feeling like oh I've got discomfort here, he's saying I contribute to animal abuse, that's aggressive. It's forcing a change and forcing social change you have to be sometimes direct and I don't want to beat around the bush and start using euphemisms to tell people what's objectively murder or what's objectively slavery. So alienating people, well they agree with us that animal abuse is wrong and animal cruelty is wrong but with their actions they're contributing to it. So we're not alienating people, I believe most of the UK are animal lovers in their heart it's just their actions aren't consistent with that so we're making people aware that their actions are contributing to the thing that they're against. Say if you in another life, I don't know we're a farmer and you heard somebody, you, saying to that farmer you as a farmer oh what you're doing is rape, you're a murderer don't you think that if you've been doing something for generations and then you're told that everything you're doing is completely wrong and it's abuse how does that person change? Because surely you need a bit more of a positive response and reaction in order to change. Do I really want to change farmers or do I want to change the public and the supply and demand change? Because farmers will only supply what the public demand. So do I want to change a farmer or do I want to change the general public and then the farmer will grow what the public want. So if I was a farmer in a previous life or whatever and I was sending animals to their death and I was enslaving them and sticking my fist in their anus and injecting bull semen into them and stealing their children off of them and bolt gunning baby calves in the head and someone said you're a murderer I'd go and look at what I'm doing and go oh you know what maybe that's true. The Newark Showground this place majority of the events here promote animal, livestock farming, dairy farming how do you feel with a choice of venue a big vegan movement right here on the Newark Showground? Well you know it's not a vegan world I mean you walk through the supermarket and there's a vegan section and there's chopped up animal bodies right there you know what we're doing here is we're selling vegan products it's a space for vegans to have a community and have speeches and you know we're not selling animal products out of here we're just using the ground and the earth the earth isn't vegan itself I mean there's you know animal products everywhere so it doesn't really give me too much of an inconsistent feeling it's just the showground and we're using it to promote a positive message. Thank you Jerry that's brilliant. When you're speaking from the animal's perspective you've got to think well for me I'm getting pushed into a gas chamber this is a holocaust for me I'm shackled and chained my children are stolen this is slavery I don't have no liberty so I speak from the animal's point of view I think the sticking point is that you believe that humans and animals are the same No I don't we're obviously different I think the action is the same so if I murder you that's murder if I murder a pig that's murder the action I'm not saying you're a pig I'm saying that you stab you in the throat that's murder and if you stab a pig in the throat that's murder But then murder in terms of British law means between a human is human activity That's not the only definition if you look up other definitions there's you know to slay wantingly there's more definitions of the word murder so you're going to use a word use all the definitions and you can't just pick one and does it change the violence of the act does it change the act being immoral because there's a semantics problem here not at all I just think that there's going to be a point where you alienate people the people that have changed look at those people here and then there's going to be a point where you cannot change those minds because calling them rapists calling them murderers I don't call people rapists I don't walk up to a farmer yeah I'll say it's rape yeah but then they're going to associate that with themselves obviously well that's true so they need to analyse that I know and you think that's true and that's your belief and many people believe that but then surely if you're going to make a change for those people that maybe will say okay we're going to sell we're going to sell the grains and the Sawyer beans and all that and not do livestock farming but how are you going to make that change if they feel that you're telling them their rape is a murder that's what I told you about the demand dictates what they sell so I don't have to change indoctrinated farmers for generations who think this is fine I'm changing the general public females mostly 75% women who see a cow have a fish shoved into their anus can go oh my god that's rape but I've actually been to farms and I've met farmers who have actually said to me that you know the hardest part sometimes is taking their animals to the slaughterhouse exactly so that means it's wrong it means that they care but they're doing something that they know is wrong they're doing something because they feel that that is feeding a population because there is still a demand a massive demand for me but what you're saying is they're doing something that's against their nature they know it's wrong so why are they doing it and why are you telling me that it's not murder it's not slavery they know what it is they know what's wrong I don't think they don't well how could they feel bad about it killing an animal for food in their mind and in many people's mind they eat me is not murder why do they feel it's bad then how do they feel sad they obviously have seen that calf born they've watched it grow and then now they take it from the mother they hear the pining okay they see the mother pining for the young they take the bobby calves off to the slaughterhouse to be bulked under the skull they shoot them on the head on site and they don't feel anything about that but that's something that is a practice a tradition that has been done for generations to feed a population but to call it slavery no I'm saying so was slavery that was normalized socially accepted for the most part that was a human activity which was suffering and people accepted that this is a human activity that causes suffering too to animals though that are used to eat for food yeah so if I ate you for food it would still make it completely immoral and wrong and if I ate a dog for food it doesn't matter what justification you use it's not needed it's unnecessary it's unjustified well you definitely have a lot to say on the movement and you've got so many followers here so obviously they like what you're saying and they believe what you're saying in terms of the movement here how far do you go with this where does it stop or does it ever stop or does it just keep going no this movement will never go away it's a movement of justice and it's based on we have the reality of slaughterhouses we have the reality of factory farming what it's doing to the planet this movement isn't going away it's only going to grow exponentially and things will change will change the whole system it's just inevitable well thank you Joey no problems really nice talking to you thanks for the interview I look forward to seeing your piece yeah it won't be a slam piece will it be completely BBC unbiased