 from San Francisco, California. Extracting the signal from the noise. It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2015. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. With special thanks to Docker. Now your hosts, John Furrier and Jeff Frick. Okay, welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for DockerCon 2015. This is the center of the universe, this is for DevOps. This is SiliconANGLE's theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal noise. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm Mike Goz, Jeff Frick, general manager of our CUBE business here in Palo Alto. Our next guest is entrepreneur, Patrick Riley, co-founder, CEO of Kismatic, hot startup. Great to see you again. We had an interview at OpenStack. Great, welcome back. Yeah, it's great to be here. So DockerCon, a Stu Miniman at Wikibon, said it's the center of the universe for DevOps. Indeed. And so, you know, certainly growing community small, but it has a Linux feel to me. Like I was talking to Alex Conrad from Forbes just before, and I said, yes, what's standardization? I said, you know, this is a forcing function right now because Amazon's numbers are out, Oracle's now putting out numbers, Amazon's going to do maybe, they say seven, I think 10, or Dave Vellante thinks 10. Oracle just announced last quarter in cloud, over 300 plus million in one quarter. That's big business. The shift is here, it's here. So if the community doesn't rally around open standards, that's what happened with Linux. They were forced to come together because if they didn't come together at a certain time, into she's toast. So I'm very excited about the Open Container Foundation, kind of our Kumbaya moment, like everyone's coming back together. We don't have to make choices. One of my big frustrations were with some of our clients, they didn't know what to bet on. You know, they thought they were solid, they thought they were going down the path of Docker and then with CoreOS doing Rocket, all of a sudden they're like, okay, wow, we have to pick the winner. It's like the VHS Betamax kind of argument. You don't want to end up with both players and no matter which one you chose, you do have to have that kind of contingency of, what do we do in case the other one wins? So having this happen, having it come back together, be one core thing and having the Linux Foundation behind it, it's really powerful. Yeah, and then what you're really getting at is, if this continues, it would have been an absolute screeching halt from a customer standpoint. Yeah, and it would have opened up the market potentially to some other tertiary approach that- Yeah, some whale pun intended coming into the Docker ecosystem. We think ocean theme here. But Patrick, I want to get your thoughts, right? So on OpenStack, we see that DevOps is cloud is hot. We want everyone, no brainer was going there. Software methodologies have changed. The now cloud era is upon us. Agile, new name is all happening. What's the challenges right now? I mean, you guys and your businesses about orchestration, Kubernetes, what's going on at that, the value is part of the stack? Yeah, I think the most difficult part for us is the education and just getting people comfortable with how they do things, making sure that they're doing it the right way. We start simply by trying to get them to look at their CI CD approach, like how are they actually building the software? How are they testing it? And ultimately, how can we get them to get things to production quicker? In the keynote the other day, we saw where people are saying, oh, well, we pushed to production three times last month. Now it's more like we pushed to production 3,000 times last month. So once they have the tooling in place, much more comfortable to getting developers new fangled ideas like to production quicker. So we find a big part of that is education, making people feel comfortable about the tooling and able to kind of go full bore. Give the background on Kismatic for the folks out there. Your company started, young company, entrepreneurial base right now. What's the status, where are you guys growing? What's the, give us the update on Kismatic, products, shipping, customers. Yeah, so Kismatic is our mission is to be enterprise support for Kubernetes. So we're all former Mesosphere. We come from distributed systems background. We know how to do this stuff. We're a small team. We're only seven people right now. We haven't disclosed our funding as of yet, but we're in good shape there. And the customers that we're going after are the people that we think are the most likely to get to production. We won't even do our paid POCs with customers now until they sign an LOI that they have an intent to go to production with Kubernetes. And just everyone- Is that because there's so much demand for POCs? There's so much demand. Or that you guys are being selective with your time? No, it's both basically. There's so much demand. We actually have what I thought was a fairly high price for our paid POCs. And that was not enough of a gate. So putting the LOI's- Raise prices. Raise prices. Keep raising prices so people say no, then you know where the line is. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But with the POCs, we're really trying to drive towards what is the executive summary at the end? What is the architecture review that's going to get them to production? How can we help them get there? And I don't want to just be a training shop. So I'm not in a good place to do that. You don't want to be just services. But services are a good business to prime the pump while the market's developing. Correct. So you learn a lot from your customers. Yeah. So one of the approaches we've taken with our POCs is that we actually, each one's better than the previous. So we use a Git repo. We use that same Git repo for the next group with a different name. And all the lessons we learned in the previous one aid the next one to be even better. And we use a Slack channel for the customer to talk with us. And the thing we find is that even though the POC is a few weeks back, a month back, they're still in that Slack channel. They're still talking. They're still putting in their POC repo. They're still asking questions. And they ultimately make it better for every single customer that comes after them, which is kind of exciting. So I got to ask you, what are the lessons that you've learned that can be magnified from your experience? You saying the POCs you're learning from each one, what are some of the things that you've learned over the past few months that have changed your mind on how the market's going? Well, I'll say. It's validated your approach. I'll step back. We're just now to the V1 of Kubernetes. So we're doing the V1 launch event on the 21st at Oskon. And now we finally have a stable API. So one of the most difficult things about doing the POCs to date has been that the API has, there's been so much churn. So when I'm doing a POC and I'm telling them to do this and this is the way we show them with a beta-free API, it when it changes two weeks later and has different things that they have to do or we change flags on the command line, it becomes really difficult and they think things are broken. So a big lesson I've learned is to make sure that we communicate those changes in the same way to users so that they know the upgrade path to keep things working. And now that we have V1, I'm excited that we have a solid API. We're not going to have that. And I think back to the open container comment, a very unfortunate thing has kind of happened in this space this year with the fracturing of the container format because it put so many people that were really gone home, ready to go all in, decide, okay, I've got to step back because there's this war now going on between two formats. So I'm glad that we've gotten that behind us. What do you, as an entrepreneur who has an interest in the future of the ecosystem, cloud in particular, just a moneymaker, what's your take on DockerCon this year? Are you happy with what you're seeing? What areas do you think is missing or should be added? Just general commentary, what's your take? So I'm really excited about DockerCon. I mean, to see this many people here, everyone's very exuberant. They want to go home. They want to experiment with the things they've learned. I just want to keep this energy in pace, moving forward. I think experimentation, that kind of mindset is what really drives the industry forward. So all of these people now have this tooling. They can go and try new things. I hope that this time next year, next year's DockerCon, it's even bigger and more exciting. As an entrepreneur, what's the biggest thing that you've learned about yourself in this startup versus others? Well, that I actually need sleep. I mean, how do you get to work then? You're seven guys, you're doing POCs, you're here on theCUBE, you're out networking, doing deals. I mean, you got to wear a lot of hats, right? Yeah, we definitely wear a lot of hats. I mean, my team's all people that I trust that helps quite a bit. And to be fair, the boundaries between companies are pretty blurry at this point. I would definitely say we are a container community. I get a lot of support from Solomon at Docker. I get a lot of support from the folks at Google Cloud Platform. I mean, in a lot of ways, even though I'm a seven-person company, I have upwards of 45 engineers at Google able to help and drive things forward. And it definitely feels like an extended family. It doesn't feel like I'm a walled garden. So I'm a skeptic, pretend I'm, my name's Bob. And I'm a skeptic, Bob the skeptic. You guys are in a crowded space. How do you compete? I don't see you winning. What's your answer to that? So- You say Bob? I say Bob? Shut the hell up. You'll bounce in. And we'll set the F word again, but we don't get censored anyway. We're at theCUBE. My prices are not high enough. Yes. So I think the thing for me is if we look at Google Cloud Platform and what they're trying to do with Kubernetes, it's coming from a company that has two billion containers a week launched. Almost all their payloads are running inside of containers. It works for them. They're giving it to the community. We're trying to provide enterprise support for that and allow you to do it on systems you already have. So I'm not asking you to throw out Red Hat. I'm not asking you to throw out Ubuntu. Just install Kubernetes on top of those things. So you could win no matter what scenario, in your mind. In my mind, we are actually covering the bases pretty well. Short of Google deciding, you know what? We're done with Kubernetes. You don't want to do this anymore. That's the only fear I have. That's a fatal flaw. That's the fatal flaw. So I think if we can grant, and Kubernetes in particular, if we can grant the IP to a foundation, much like we've done now with the Open Container Foundation and not have Google necessarily be the gatekeeper of that, that would be the next level of success for Kubernetes. I mean, every business has a fatal flaw. I mean, think about it, you know? I mean, I just tend to trust Google's opinion of how to do things when they are all in. It's not like they're dabbling in containers. They've been doing this for years. Google's definitely all in on Kubernetes. I talked to the guys over there, Craig McLucky and everyone else. They are cloud businesses booming. Yes. All right, so talk about the foundation. There was a thread I read on GitHub that you were actually mentioned on February 13th, some sort of haymaker. I wouldn't call it a haymaker. Comment on GitHub. There was a thread that Solomon was talking about, squabbling over namespaces, DNS namespaces. Yeah, I forget what context it was. Something small, trivial. But the point was, he was like, hey guys, stop the charades, let's get back down to business. And you just said, hey, we should start a foundation. You got the seed that started it all? Yeah, I mean, I just personally felt that we need to have this kind of more of a consortium effort. Let's not have these company lines. Let's not play politics. Let's get to where we're actually servicing the user in the correct way. It's very frustrating to me when a customer comes to me and they want to hit the pause button because they're uncomfortable with which direction to choose when it's just unnecessary. I would say to Dave, you know, it's like nailing Jell-O to a wall. But now the other Jell-O analogy is when you put Jell-O in the fridge, it comes together at some point, it just forms Jell-O. Is this the moment where everything comes together for Docker in your opinion? Do you think OCP is that moment? Or is there more things that have to happen on the community side? So I think from my standpoint, I look at Docker as being like big D Docker and little D Docker, right? There's the Docker community and there's the Docker company. And for me, I want to make sure that, you know, Docker, the company set up for success to provide tooling and products, you know, for people to actually move to containers and away from, you know, legacy approaches. And I want things to be done in a governed way that's open and inclusive, not exclusive. All right, well, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. We've been following your success. We saw you at OpenStack. Again, perfect storm for developers. It's an application-centric, programmable infrastructure. It needs orchestration, it needs Kubernetes. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. See you out of chismatic here. Patrick Riley on theCUBE. We'll be back more wall-to-wall day two coverage. Kind of coming to an end. A lot of people are strolling out now, the keynotes. This is theCUBE. We'll be back more from live in San Francisco where all the action's happening in cloud, in DevOps after this short break.