 This is Think Tech Hawai'i, Community Matters here. Welcome and aloha, everybody. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawai'i's Law Across the Sea program. Today, my program is titled Walking Across the Sea, and I think you'll understand why as we go through it. My guest today is the Reverend John Heidel. Reverend Heidel has been a youth chaplain and a minister for about 50 years, and I thought it would be good to ask him some questions based on that experience. Today I want to draw on Reverend Heidel's own life experience and personal beliefs to talk about God, Jesus, and faith, spirituality, and what the heck any of this has to do and is relevant in the 21st century. So first, Reverend Heidel, welcome. It's good to see you. It's good to talk to you again. Good to be with you. How are you? I'm fine, and thank you very much for the invitation for this little chat. I appreciate it. Yeah, well, we've had chats in the past, but never in front of an audience like this. But you've had lots of chats, and you've talked to lots of people. You're a youth minister, a youth chaplain, and you're also, I guess, a regular minister for old folks, too, and I'd like to ask you, what's the difference? What questions do young people ask you, and older folks, what do they ask you, and what's the difference? What have you discovered over these years? Yeah, it's interesting. Actually kind of rare for a person any age to actually come out with a pointed theological question, like who's God, or what is God, but what they'll talk about is a personal experience they're having and then say, so what does this mean, and what do I do? I've kind of discovered that the difference between the questions that youth and more mature adults might ask are really kind of a contextual thing. The youth are more concerned about what's happening now. How do I understand my life as it's evolving and unfolding here? Immediate. Immediate. There's an immediate concern, you know, why did my girlfriend dump me? Why are my parents on my back all the time? You know, that kind of thing. And how does that relate to religion and spirituality? Do they ask that, too? Once in a while they'll get to that, but it's more understanding what's happening in my life. And so when I talk about how faith can enable that, that's when we get into, you know, spiritual strengths and what it means to have a faith and how in the world a belief in God or Jesus can help any of that, and it takes a while to untangle that. Okay, well, alright, and so adults, what do they, they're more looking towards the end of life? Well, yeah, they want to understand the past a little bit, but it's more the end of life. What's happening in the future? How do I prepare myself for the rest of my life? What does it all mean? Yes, exactly. What does it all mean? The youth might ask that a little bit in terms of why do bad things happen and why did this particular thing happen and why is it happening to me, of all people, but the adults will have more of a futuristic view. So what does it mean for the future and how are we going to get through this? Okay, so let's pretend, and it may be hard for you to do this, pretend that I'm a young person coming into your office. I remember you when you were young. Well, and I say, you know, Reverend Heidel, this has happened, and what does it mean? What do you say? I mean, what do you, what is your response? I mean, I can't, I know it's not a canned response, but generally, how do you talk about faith and religion and being applicable at all to your current affairs? How do you deal with that? Well, I think, first of all, it's very important to have, would have you reflect on how you feel about that. What's it doing to you inside, and so what are your feelings and how is it impacting your relationships with the important people in your life? Because I think where faith can be helpful is helping people understand how we are tied together in some way, and it isn't easy to understand, but if a person is going to see their way through a particular problem, you have to understand what the feelings are and how that impacts the important relationships you have. So I would get the person, and especially you, to talk about your feelings and what's happening inside. And the faith that you're talking about is a Christian faith from your point of view, but does it make any difference? I mean, I don't think it makes a difference at all, because what I understand about the different faiths is they're all trying to help people be better people and live more complete lives, and that's the purpose of any religion. They may have different ways of going about it and different words for different things, but basically it's trying to untangle the mess that life often appears to be, and how do we get through this and get to the other side and continue being a vibrant, vital person. So that's... And so, okay, and now we're going to go forth a few years. I'm a little older and I'm coming to you in Reverend Heidel. What does it all mean? You know, I mean, I've worked my whole life and good and bad things have happened, and now I'm staring at... I realize I'm staring at the end. What does it all mean? What can I do? What should I do? What... Reverend Heidel, what do you believe? What do you think? What do you say to somebody like that? I would say that the meaning of life really is relationships and how we interact with each other and showing kindness and showing compassion and basically just being good people with one another. And so what it means is if we're going to feel happy in our relationships, if we're going to be happy with our own life, we need to treat each other with kindness and respect. We need to be responsible for who we are and be honest about ourselves and our relationships and know that there is a supportive system, and some people would call that God. I would call it a spiritual approach to life that undergirds everything we do. So that... Because life is sacred. Life is sacred. A sacred trust to be responsibly good people. And how do we do that? And so we need to talk with you about exactly what's going on in order for it to make sense. We need to understand the details of what's going on and then figure out a way to work through that. I'm looking at the end of life. So where am I going? So what do you want to do with your life? At this point in your life, what really do you want to do? What really would give you a sense of joy and fulfillment and what you do in your life today? Is it going out to eat? Is it talking with friends? Is it watching football? What really gives you joy? And I think as we approach the end of life, we need to do more and more of that searching for joy and actually doing something to find the joy. So what I hear you saying, and it's interesting to me, is that faith and spirituality are a little different, and religions are a little bit different, and what you're looking at is a way to live life that makes you respect all people and be happier with your own daily life. And that is, that's not really religion, it's a way to live life. Is that what you call spirituality? Is that what that is? That's what I would call spirituality because I think religion has really been obscured by a lot of rules and belief systems that doesn't allow you to really see the power of religion. For instance, the meaning of religion to me is that it binds us to each other. The definition that we've been living with for the last 2,000 years or more is that religion binds us to God. But my understanding of God is that it's that which transcends who we are physically and so we get into those sacred qualities of life, and that's where we're bound together, trying to find meaning in these sacred aspects of life, and that's done through a relationship. So we need to figure out how we're bound to each other, not necessarily bound to a belief system. And is that a way of finding God then? And so to me that's a way of understanding God that makes more sense than the way religions have told us to believe. Well tell me about that, how have religions told us to believe and how has that changed over the years? Well my understanding of Jesus, for instance, was a man who was really trying to enable people to relate to each other with compassion and kindness and honesty. And that was his whole ministry to try to bring people together in that way. And when the church became organized, they came up with all these rules and belief systems that got us away from those original teachings. So just let me interrupt. I mean that's a lot. So, well, I mean you're talking from your own experience and you're talking from your own beliefs. And so the way that you're saying is that Jesus was more along the lines of the spirituality, the more along the lines of everyday life and respecting people and working with people almost regardless of who they were. That's what I hear you saying. I'm convinced that Jesus had no intention of starting a church. I'm convinced of that. He was trying to relate to people in a compassionate way. And so what happened? How did we get in? I mean, how did the... Well, the church became organized. And as soon as we had all these old church fathers, all these old white men telling us what to believe and how to believe and how to practice our faith, we got further and further away from just treating each other as people. So you got an organization, you got a structure as opposed to just... We have a belief system rather than following the teachings of Jesus. And I think we need to get back to those basic teachings of Jesus and not necessarily spend so much time trying to figure out. So what did the church fathers mean about the trinity? What does it mean to be redeemed of our sins, you know? So this is what's progressed. Where are we coming now? I mean, are we moving more towards that or away from it? What do you see in the world today with respect to the church and people's experiences with the church? There are a lot... I'm sorry. I guess we're talking about all churches in a way. All faiths. All faiths. All faiths. Yeah, within all faiths, you know, you'll have people who want to follow the more traditional Orthodox viewpoint and this is the way we've always done it. This is the way we've taught. This is the way our elders, our ancestors have taught. And that's where we get organized into all these belief systems in a way that you're... This is the way you're supposed to behave and this is what you're supposed to believe. And I think it does get us away from just really treating each other kindly. And that's where spirituality is. That's real spirit. Okay, so let me just try to put this together a little bit. The... Good luck. Yeah, good luck. So the church developed in certain rules, let's say. And then if you either follow the rules or you follow a different road. In some churches you're cast out and you have to find a completely different road and it's very often not a very kind road because you're ostracized from your family and friends in the community. So how did you develop this? I mean, have you been thinking about this wherever in Heidel? How did you start out and does your travels along this way reflect what's been going on in the world? Basically I really have been talking about my own experience in spiritual evolvement because I grew up a very traditional Methodist being told what to believe and I accepted that. And when I was invited to come back to Central Union for a second time, some people didn't want me to come back because they thought I was too traditional and not open enough and I think that's really who I was. And so coming back to Hawaii and Central Union for a second time and then moving on to Puneho and living within this multicultural, multi-faith environment which is Hawaii, it really prodded me to change and to reflect on what it all means and how we're all in this together. Yeah. And so your viewpoint is that we're all in this together regardless of faith or... When you break down the basic religions, every religion has a golden rule, for instance, a teaching that reflects that teaching in the Bible that Jesus taught about treating others as you would like to be treated. Every religion has a different way of saying that and that's what they urged their followers to believe and how they should live. And so that's a great thing we have in common. If we just went back to that old belief, you think that would resolve things. And I want to ask you a little bit more about that after our break. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Aloha. I'm Kili Ikeena and I'm here every other week on Mondays at 2 o'clock p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii's Hawaii Together. In Hawaii Together, we talk with some of the most fascinating people in the islands about working together, working together for a better economy, government and society. So I invite you into our conversation every other Monday at 2 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. Join us for Hawaii Together. I'm Kili Ikeena. Aloha. We are back with John Heidel, Reverend Heidel. I've been asking you a lot about your personal travel across the sea and where it's brought you and a lot of your personal feelings and opinions and appreciate hearing that. And I want to ask you now, we talked a little bit about different faiths. And I mean, how can you have different faiths? How can there be different faiths? You were talking about everybody having the same basic underlying, you know, be good to others, good statement within their, within, within religions. But we got Jews, Muslims, Christians, I mean, do they all believe the same thing? Is there more than one God? I mean, do we have gods? I mean, Yahweh, Allah, the Christian God, I mean, do Christians even believe all of that? Or do they believe in the same God? And do they all believe in Jesus? Can you answer that? Not in a nutshell, that's for sure. But the, I've grown to realize that basically all these different religions, based on their culture and their environment and the way they live, simply have a different understanding of God. And so they put a different name to it. And so you have Yahweh, and Elohim, and Allah, and God. But they all, so what they do is reflect that cultural understanding of where those people are on their spiritual path. So I mean, all right, so I mean, is it all the same? I mean, is it all the same God, or is it, are these different gods? I mean, I'm trying to understand this, and then how, and if they're, and how do, well, let me do that one at a time, because we'll get too deep. It's very complex, yeah. The, yeah, the, it's difficult because of the understanding different religions have about their approach to God. And so, if you're an absolutist, for instance, you think that my God is right. In my, the view I have of God is right. And so all the teachings of my God that come from my scriptures, they're absolute and they're right, and everything else is false. And that just closes the door on any kind of dialogue and growth and cooperation and, and living together. Whereas if you say that every religion has a unique approach based on their environment and culture and ethnicity, and the, but it's basically reflecting the, the same desire to be a good, the same values, be a good person and make good decisions and have good relationships. I mean, I, and that's the spirituality that you're talking about, right? Right, and I think we, we probably should emphasize the spirituality rather than the religion, because when you get into religion, then you get into all these other things about how religions are organized and, and the belief systems and the hierarchy and who tells who what to do and, but if we go back to the basics is what I hear you saying. Now, now, going back to the basics, the question that comes up in my mind, I mean, you're talking about spirituality. So you're talking about a feeling in a way. You're not talking about a being. Right. You're talking about something that is envelopes all of mankind or all humankind, I guess, or maybe more than that. Maybe just. Well, I'm talking about an approach to the life that regards everything as sacred. And that's God. Is that, is that, is that right? That would be God to me, but it's not a, it's not a being. It's not a force. It's not somebody that's controlling our environment. And, and so when people say, well, it must be God's will. I see. Yes. You know, what's God's will? Does God will a baby to die? No, I don't think so. It happens and it's terrible and it's a part of life that we just need to regard as really tragic and learn how to handle it. And when we support each other from a spiritual standpoint and seeing all life as sacred, even death, then we have a way of understanding the end of life. And it's a sacred thing. It's not a tragic thing. And it's the whole, it's the whole ball of wax. It's everything. It's everything. It's our existence. Okay. And that, you know, that's not easy to take in if you've been brought up for many years within a church or even your formative years where you learned that, you know, you read certain things and you follow certain rules. But if you, so that's, that's a personal trip that you've taken. Right. I see. And not everyone has taken that trip. Or it needs, I guess. Oh, yeah. In fact, is there an awful lot of people who would be praying for me right now fervently because of the things I said, because I think I'm really off the track as a Christian. And from their viewpoint, they're, you know, they're probably right. But you know, there is more than one approach to God and to faith. Are you a Christian? I am living as a, my foundational belief system is Christian. And so I am living based on that foundational belief system, but I feel like I am, I don't want to say more, but my view and my understanding of God has expanded to a point where I'm not only a Christian, I'm also a Buddhist. I'm also Jewish. I'm also Muslim. Well, I'm also Bahá'í because I respect and I, and those religions have taught me a little bit more than, frankly, than what Christianity has taught me about how to live and be a good person. And you're telling me they're all fundamentally, there's a sort of a link between all of them. It's what you've seen in your personal trip across the sea. Yes. Live life like it's a sacred thing. Okay. Now, one thing, all of these religions have books. You know, they all have books behind them that were written by really intelligent people, it seems to me. Do we, I mean, do we, for example, the Bible, there's scriptures and things, do we, what are those? What are those books? Are those books to be, do we believe everything in those books? Are they meant to be analogies or what is it? And I'm going to ask you a tough question about a specific story. That's really a tough one because, you know, they're all holy books and sacred to a lot of people. And so they need to be treated with some delicacy and respect. But from my viewpoint, my perspective right now is I see those, all those books, no matter what faith tradition it is, the Koran or the Bible or the Jewish Torah, they're all historical statements about peoples at a particular time and their understanding of God and how that evolved. And so when I read the Bible, I need to read it historically. I need to read an awful lot of it as a metaphor, the deeper truth behind the teaching itself. So what is the truth behind that teaching? And that's where we need to go metaphorically. And also that I see a lot of all of the scriptures as a sacred story of who we are as a people. And so to put them all together really gives us an understanding of who the world's people are, not just my people, not just the Christians, but all the people. It's more like an encyclopedia in a way of historical belief and maybe the underlying spirituality is what started it. And then people thought about it a lot. And so when you don't take every bit of history as literal truth and that's the way we need to behave today, we're supposed to learn from that history. But that's a challenge of another sort, of course. Well let me go that way. First of all, a lot of the books of the Christian Bible deal with Jesus. Who was Jesus? Can you answer that question for me? There have been volumes written on the historical Jesus. And basically Christians have agreed to disagree about this, based on your perspective. Even within the Christian Church, we're not all together on this. There are different perspectives on who Jesus was. There are some people that think Jesus is God. And that's appropriate and it's understandable why they would be there. I don't believe that. I believe Jesus was a man who was a very profound teacher, a very compassionate being who knew a little bit, a lot more about what it means to be a sacred being than any of the rest of us. And that's the challenge to try to understand exactly what he was teaching us about that. Okay, and just taking a little one step further, there are some stories about Jesus. We're going to walk on the water, aren't we? Walking on the water. That's what I want to ask. What do we take from that? He walked across the Sea of Galilee on the water. And apparently, I guess Peter had an encounter with him on the water. His faith wasn't shocked, that's what he's saying. Well to me, that is a really excellent example of what it means to understand the Bible metaphorically. Please, yeah. Be my teacher. Well if your faith is strong enough, we ought to be able to walk on water. However, for instance, I've heard people say, well if we just pray hard enough, this cancer will be healed. Of course, and sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't. So did we not pray hard enough? Was our faith not strong enough? We're simply receiving a different answer. And that when a person doesn't conquer the cancer, it's a different type of answer. So when a person can't walk on the water, when they do sink, it's not that their faith wasn't strong enough, it's just that they still have some growing to do. And so I think the metaphor of Jesus walking on the water is to get us to a point where we can face any hardship, any challenge and do our best. With belief. With belief. Or in spirituality, that's what I hear you're saying. With a spiritual approach to life, with a sacred approach to life, you know, even if we sink, we're going to be okay. Okay. We have about two minutes left. I would like you to tell me your favorite scripture, your favorite metaphor, or your favorite belief, or spiritual insight for us to close our program. I actually have two. There's an Old Testament from the Jewish scriptures from the prophet Micah that he was asked at one point, so what's the meaning of life? And he said to love kindness, love mercy, and do justice, and walk humbly. And so that's the challenge I think of any kind of spiritual life, is to do those things with each other. And so that's one of my favorite scriptures in terms of spiritual growth. If we try to accomplish those things, chances are we'll make some headway. In the New Testament, there are a lot, but they would have to do with sharing life with each other, sharing our resources, and being responsible, being good stewards, not only of the earth, but of each relationship. And nurturing, not only the earth, but nurturing each relationship, so it really produces good things. And that's a broader... That's a broader thing, so a broader belief than just one religion, too. Right, and it doesn't lift up any one... It lifts up everybody. Well, and it lifts up a lot of the different scriptures and a lot of the different teachings of Jesus. And so I guess I would say to answer your question, I would choose not to just lift out a single teaching, but just all the teachings of Jesus that help us to be better people. All right, John. Thank you very much. I appreciate you coming in and sharing your experiences with us today, and hopefully it'll enable me to walk across the water also. Thank you. You're welcome.