 Welcome to the sports playbook where we discuss solutions to issues that impact sports. I am your host Angela hazelett. Today's guest is Ryan Fitzgerald the assistant director of intramural sports at Indiana University Bloomington. We're here to take an inside look at collegiate intramural sports. Welcome Ryan. Hey everybody. I'm really glad to have you here Ryan. Thanks for joining us today. I think it would be helpful if we start with kind of an understanding of the different levels of sports offered on a collegiate campus. So I'll walk us through that and then maybe you can tell us a little bit more about your area, which is the intramural sports area. Basically there are three different tiers of sponsored sports on campus. We have the intercollegiate athletics which a lot of people think about when they think about sports at college. This mostly includes recruited athletes who participate in highly organized and competitive sports under the eligibility requirements and rules of a governing body kind of like the NCAA. And then we have another level which are considered club sports which is high level competitive play, often has tryouts, competes against other colleges. And then we have your area which is intramural sports. And this tier sports is where college students participate in sports against and with their classmates and either competitive or purely recreational formats. They take place on a college campus, are participated in by college students really looking to socialize, stay active, learn something new. So what are some of your most popular intramural offerings at Indiana University Bloomington? Yeah, so look, we are in Indiana. So basketball by nature is a very popular sport for us. Basketball, flag football, soccer, we have foot saw as well, which is more of an indoor soccer style of sport. Volleyball is very popular for us. So a lot of your traditional team sports, spike ball and bags are also really popular for us as well. They usually fill up for us a lot of interested people within those sports as well. You said spike ball and bags, is that what you said? Yes, cornel. Can you explain that a little bit more? What is that? Yeah, so two different sports. So spike ball is kind of new in a way. So spike ball is more, there's a net on the ground and there's a ball, 2B2 or 4B1. And it's generally played, sometimes played on the beach, sometimes we play on our turf, field complex. So spike ball and then your traditional bag, your cornhole, also known as we have those tournaments as well. And then how many people do you have that actually participate in intramurals? Sure. So this year kind of coming out of COVID, we had over 6,000 unique individuals who participated within our program, which was really, really, really cool to see. Prior to COVID, we were up near 9,000 or so. So we are rebuilding, but over 6,000 unique individuals on our campus who choose to participate in our programs. So put that in perspective for us. How many students go to Indiana University Bloomington? What percentage of students are actually participating in intramurals? Sure, sure. So don't know the exact percentage, but thinking about like overall, in terms of campus ventures say we have probably over 30,000 people here on campus. So we are definitely serving a great majority of our population here on campus, which we would always like for it to be more as well. Well, in the intercollegiate athletics, the club sports, those are more competitive and restricted to very specific populations. So this is more accessible for the larger student population. We've worked in intramural sports for several years now at four different universities. So you started at James Madison University as the intramural sports site manager and an official. You were at University of Kentucky as a grad assistant for intramural sports. Then you were at University of South Carolina as a coordinator for intramural sports. And now in your current role as the assistant director of intramural sports at Indiana University Bloomington. So comparing those four different institutions, what kind of similarities and differences have you seen between intramural programs? Yeah, great question. So I think generally speaking, in terms of how those four programs are similar, I think we all, at every place I've been, the goal is to program sport for all of our students on campus. So how that's determined, what strategies kind of go into that kind of depends on leadership, obviously within the Department of Recreational Sports at that institution as well as where your rec sports department aligns with the university. So for example, is it under student affairs? Like is it not? So I think for differences, we kind of come back to, like here at IU, we have a beautiful turf field complex at JMU, we also did as well. So just thinking about resources in terms of like very simply put, like if it rains, do we cancel or do we have a playing surface where we are able to go out and continue to play? I think that across the board, I think most IM programs are run pretty similar. There's different twists, there's different perspectives, but obviously depending on, again, those bigger overarching goals of the department. That functions within, but generally speaking, we try to do, like at the end of the day, we try to do as best for the students, making sure we're programming, making sure we're being inclusive, making sure that we have a very diverse set of offerings for people to come and participate with us. To meet the needs of various students. Exactly. And so when you say IM, that refers to intramural sports, correct? Is that the lingo for intramural sports? The lingo there, yep. The lingo, the lingo. Let's, let's transition just a little bit. You, in looking at your handbook for participation, you have a policy that allows for persons to participate in accordance with their gender identity, allowing individuals to select whether they can be in men's, women's, co-ed leagues. So you also have an open recreational category and a residential hall category that don't have these restrictions or categories based on sex or gender. So can you explain to me why are many participants separated by gender in these different leagues? Sure. Good question. So for us, this is actually something we've looked a lot into this year. We have, we've met with colleagues on campus to answer that question as to why. And I'll be honest with you, I don't have a perfect answer. It's something we are still, we're still looking into. We're still asking our participants what our league structure should look like to be inclusive. And we're talking with people to really try to understand, do people like participating in a men's and a women's league, a co-league, an open league where there are no gender requirements. So that's something we're actually currently looking into and working on to see how is that current setup inclusive for everyone or does it discourage people to participate within our programs. So we're actually having those conversations. That's kind of the way it's always been done is the kind of traditional men's, women's, co-leagues. We actually started this past spring. We have open leagues for every single one of our sport offerings. So we are having those conversations again to really make sure we are being inclusive on campus for the students we serve. Yeah, and that's one of the tenets of intramural sports is to be inclusive to the community at large and at the institution. Gender identity is in sport is a controversial issue regarding fairness at all levels of sport. So you said this is sort of something you're in conversations with, but how long has your gender identity policy been in place and how has it been received by that Indiana University Bloomington community? Sure. So the policy, the policy before we rewrote most of it this past spring, the policy in general was in place before my time here at IU. And we truthfully made some changes because the previous policy was not well received by our student population. So we had some conversations. We listened. We sat at the table to have those conversations. And that's where we've seen that change this past spring. Some updates to our policy, the way we word things. Man versus woman, men versus woman, female versus male. How do we use proper verbiage as well within our policies to make sure that if somebody comes in, they are interested in signing up and they see verbiage that is not very inclusive. That might automatically deter them from participating within our programs. So we want to make sure we are using the correct verbiage to make sure that they feel included within our space. Yeah, they don't see that a reflection of their identity that they can choose from to participate and they feel like maybe they're, they don't have a place in participating. So you also have other rules that limit athletes to compete at higher levels. If they compete in club, intercollegiate, professional sports, would you say limiting participation of athletes that competed a more, you know, higher tier? Is this more of a safety issue or a fairness issue? Sure. I would say that it's a mixture of both. So when we think about the overall population of students who participate within our programs here at IU, we have both competitive and recreational leagues for most of our sports. So people can sign up. We also do it in terms of fairness for those participants as well, right? So when we think about the fairness aspect as well as if you match an elite athlete within like a sport with somebody who might not have as much experience, does that then present like a safety concern for that person? So that's generally why we have those policies in place. Yeah, and then, and then I would think that there, people competing at a higher level, they're already getting sport and opportunities elsewhere and that may be taking the place of an opportunity for someone else who can't compete at that level or doesn't compete at that level as well. And I know part of the philosophy for intramural sports is that participants should demonstrate good sportsmanship. And your participant handbook, you cite the Webster's dictionary definition that a sportsman is a person who can take loss or defeat without complaint or victory without gloating and who treats his opponents with fairness, generosity, courtesy. So why is this an important aspect of your philosophy for intramural sports? Sure. It's something we talk about from the first day in August, when we have our staff training until the last day of the semester in the spring. For us, sportsmanship is more than being a good sport. It helps us to create like an environment where I am should be a really fun place where people are able to come out, recreate with their friends, mix in a little competition in there. But the purpose of why we have IMs on campus is to allow people to come out, to recreate, as I just said, and just have a really fun experience. So for us, sportsmanship gets factored into playoff eligibility, like in deceiving. So it's something we talk about often. And it's something we talked about during captain's meetings before games, just making sure that this is still an IU sanction program. This is still something that is represented of you and should still be following every policy you follow, like in the classroom as well. So it's an extension. Obviously, sport by nature can kind of bring some things out that we wouldn't have in the classroom. But it is something for us that towards our officials, towards our supervisors, making sure that people are being good sports and they're having fun. And the other team is also able to enjoy their experience as well. You know, I had an experience when I was a site supervisor creation where during basketball, a basketball game, I participant did not like the call from an official and became verbally aggressive towards the official threatening violence and I sort of had to jump in the middle and intervene and help kind of manage that situation. So what are some examples in your years of experience where people have not been good sports and what were the consequences for that poor behavior. Sure that the list is fairly lengthy, but there's there's there's everything from like like you kind of mentioned verbal abuse towards towards a staff member. Those are things we absolutely do not tolerate for us all of our sports officials are our students on campus so we are teaching them we were training them we are developing them as officials. And berating them and yelling at them and doing those types of things are things we take very seriously. And they're things that oftentimes come with games suspensions or, or at least conversations with us in terms of of participants. It goes from everything from verbal altercations with with other participants that can be resolved by by quick conversation as as your example kind of says over, or we have entire fan bases that they're screaming and yelling and threatening and, and, and then we have to clear the entire sideline right we have to like remove everybody. And for us, we emphasize that the captain of the team represents the team, the team that's on the field as well as any fans or anything that come to watch the game. So for us, sportsmanship encompasses everything anybody who's there that has any representation for your team goes into your sportsmanship rating. That's something for us that that we, we have those conversations and, and we make sure and again the bottom line is, this should be really fun. This should be a really good avenue for for people to come out have a good time we're great with their friends and and participate in sport. And that sportsmanship rating factors into playoff eligibility. Are there any other consequences other than postseason play. Yeah, so, excuse me. So for us, if like if a team gets below our sportsmanship rating is on a full point scale. So if a team were to get below, say, like a two sportsmanship rating, we look at that every day. After each, each night of games and if a team gets below it to, we're going to have some some direct conversations with that team to figure out what what went on. We'll also talk with our staff. So anything that anything that kind of raises to a two, which is often anything that again kind of goes against the student code of conduct or anything like that we will reach out have conversations and it's if it's a consistent issue. We've also removed teams from from leagues as well. If they're unable to be good sports. So providing that education you're at a university where you educate right so education is important and how to improve their behavior is really important. You know, and I know this plays into officials and how they're treated. Our country is experiencing a nationwide crisis for recruiting and maintaining sports officials to referee athletic competition. Some contributing factors include the great resignation, low wages, verbal and physical abuse from athletes, coaches and spectators. Are you also experiencing a crisis in recruiting and maintaining sports officials and if so what are you doing to combat this challenge. Yes, the answer yes. Yeah, you're you're right. I know locally here for for high school sports as well. We were low in terms of numbers but specifically here on campus as well. And it's not just necessarily sports officials. It's kind of across our department as well. But I think specifically that sports official job across the country. So, like you said, they see things that are constantly on the news, right on Facebook on on the news, whatever else might be regarding officials and and how they're being treated. So, it's not necessarily something right now that that people want to sign up to become do it's it for me I started when I was at JMU. That's how I got into this field. And I love it. It's, it's something that I've learned how to how to manage that, how to deal with that but coming into it right now with the current environment that environment. It wasn't as known when I got into, got into it so I think right now everybody's kind of aware of it. And it's something that's, that's even more of a barrier to kind of see past that to, and come out and for us on campus we're officiating our peers as well. Right. Yeah, and that's that's even tougher maybe officiating peers. Do you you have a sportsmanship rating in place to help kind of protect the officials. But what are you doing to overcome this shortage of having proper trained officials to officiate your competitive sports. So, so for us, something we did kind of coming out of COVID, we, we didn't come back with with a full sport offering this this past year, we, we got back into it, we had that we had very little returning staff, when we came back out of so when we like we were completely rebuilding so we were hiring, hiring people who were interested in the job, training them, getting them on the fields. But again, it's, it's one of those things where we, we can't force people to go out and want to be a, like sports officials so that that interest has to come first, and I think that that's, that's the hardest part. We're having conversations with people, kind of letting them know that we'll provide them with all, all of the training that they need to be successful. But there's still questions, right there's still those those lingering questions as to how, how do we respond if somebody is yelling at us or, or how do we respond. If, if like we make a bad call right which were things before that we asked questions about but now it's more, more often more relevant. And what do you say in response to that how should they respond if there is some kind of issue they have to manage on the field. Sure, our biggest kind of philosophy is we, we all try to meet the participant where they are we, we keep trying to do our job of doing it well, let the last play go, we'll talk about it later. We will debrief that that play that call. Oftentimes, I tell our staff as well, oftentimes we, we do make the right call according to the rules that we play by right so so when we think about a lot of our participants may, they may watch the dnba they may watch college sports. We, we follow high school rules, right for for most of our sports. So there's, there's a difference. So we teach them towards, towards those rules. So being confident as well. Right. So just overall confidence as, as soon as actually you like you let somebody see that we've, that's gotten to you, right. It's doors are open and and it might cause more problems throughout the game as well. So standing strong being confident. And then we can always answer questions later. So if there's an injury that happens what role do officials have and at that point when, when someone gets injured in competition. Now what what does an official do. Sure. So for us are like officials are in charge of stopping the game, going over to the suspect and calling over our like supervisor staff is there on site. So, so for us, we, we have medical personnel that that is on site that that we it depending on injury scope of injury and such. We call over that medical personnel and they come over they, they will take over and assassin and direct on next steps. Wow, that's incredible that you have staff on site. And Ryan, I know you personally have experienced several concussions that you sustained in sports and concussions are highly prevalent in sports. Yet they can be really difficult to assess. So how has your personal experience in sustaining concussions influenced how you run the intramural sports program at Indiana University Bloomington. Thank you for that. That's the big thing, honestly is thinking through that mindset. Going through those concussions and kind of managing that there was nothing ever that it wasn't safe about it right when I was participating, but how, how do we train our staff. How do we set ourselves ourselves up to be as as prepared in those like incidents as possible. So, how do we train our staff to to recognize those things. How do we train to train our, our staff to respond quickly, right, make, but making sure that we're being timely with our response as well. And it probably is really helpful to have medical personnel on site so that they can sort of make that decision on return to play I assume they make that decision rather than the official themselves. Yes, yeah, a medical personnel for us, they will determine what happens next. So if there is, say, a neck or back injury and paramedics need to be called a return to play wise that participant cannot come back and participate in anything for at least 24 hours. So, so that's generally where that goes. And then in terms of responding that that medical personnel is the one to then determine if that person is is safe to return to play. Excellent. And you mentioned COVID earlier and how you've had to reduce the number of support offerings which has improved your official ratio. But do you think you mentioned that you're also mentioned that your number of participants have reduced the pre post pandemic by a couple thousand students. Well, how else has COVID impacted your operations and you know what else have you had to do to kind of hone in on COVID protocols that were kind of towards the end here but is there any like one or two things that you really have had to change. Over the past few years, since COVID started, we didn't have any team sports for over a year, year and a half. So we did not historically offer any sports. So that's something we, we brought in. And then as we transition back into offering some one be one type of sport offerings, a very strategic approach back to getting back to a more normal sport offering. We used a lot of policies and procedures in terms of cleaning, whether it's equipment, whether it's participant sanitizing, we did a lot to make sure that we were setting ourselves up with a very safe environment. And as we've continued to transition making sure that our participants feel safe within that environment as well. So listening with them engaging with them as well really hearing their perspective. Absolutely. I know weather is always something that you have to be mindful of being in the Midwest you have to worry about tornadoes and of course lightning storms and snow and all those sorts of things. But you also have to think about what kind of equipment and apparel that participants are wearing, make sure they don't wear pockets or zippers or jewelry things that can cause them injury. Are there any other major areas that you focus on to keep participants officials spectators safe. Yeah, everything you mentioned, it, especially what level when we think about anything that's, that's hard, or could could cause injury to somebody else. So we always think about whether it's a brace or like or anything like that anything that could potentially cause harm. Pockets are a huge thing with like football, just just everything we can do to make sure that our participants are safe, as well as the participants that they're playing against as well. Absolutely. Well, this has been very illuminating so thank you Ryan for giving us an inside look at collegiate intramural sports, and thank you to our viewers for joining us today on the sports playbook. In two weeks time our guest is Steve Schoenfeld who will discuss the PGA tour. We will see you then. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.