 Welcome back to the ECB Forum on Central Banking. Please, do continue to share your comments on social media under the hashtag ECB Forum. And now, it's my great pleasure to introduce the editor of the Financial Times, Rula Kallaf, who kindly accepted our invitation to moderate this year's Distinguished Policy Panel. Rula will be joining us from the FT's headquarters in London. So good afternoon and over to you. Hello and thank you for the invitation and thank you to the audience for joining us this afternoon. I am in lockdown London. It's been more than nine months since the coronavirus pandemic, Europe and the US. And after a period of recovery over the summer, many economies are shut once again, as countries battle second or third waves of the virus. The economic cost has been tremendous, but perhaps not as severe as some had feared. That's because the response to the pandemic has been forceful and fast. The monetary response was extraordinary and it was supported by a massive fiscal response. Where do we go from here? What is the fallout from a health emergency of uncertain duration? And what does it pretend for monetary policy? No one is better positioned to give us answers than my three panelists, Jay Powell, chair of the Federal Reserve, Christine Lagarde, president of the ECB, and Andrew Bailey, governor of the Bank of England. First, let me start by asking you about some good news we've had recently. The election of Joe Biden in the US and the prospect of a vaccine that will be available before the end of the year. How does that change the economic outlook? To what extent does it change the economic outlook? Chair Powell, over to you first. Sure. So from our standpoint, I think we can say a couple of things about the status of our recovery. First, it's been faster and stronger than we expected. Second, it's slowing a bit and that's understandable given the outsized pace of the gains in May and June. Third, it's been uneven. So it's been better for people with higher incomes than for lower incomes, still 20% unemployment among higher unemployment among people in the lowest quartile. And it's also incomplete. So we still have 10 million people here out of work. So I would say that the main risk we see today, we do see the economy continuing on a solid path of recovery, but the main risk we see of that to that is clearly the further spread of the disease here in the United States. We've got new cases at a record level. We've seen a number of states begin to reimpose limited activity restrictions and people may lose confidence that it's safe to go out. We've said from the beginning that the economy will not fully recover until people are confident that it's safe to resume activities involving crowds of people. You mentioned the vaccine, so that is certainly good and welcome news for the medium term, although significant challenges and uncertainties remain about timing, production, distribution and the efficacy for different groups. And from our standpoint, it's just too soon to assess with any confidence the implications of the news for the path of the economy, especially in the near term. And I would say with the virus now spreading, the next few months could be challenging. You also asked about the election and of course, Rulee, you will not be surprised to find that I'm very reluctant to comment on the election. I won't be surprised, but I'll be disappointed. Don't comment directly or indirectly, other than to say that this is a good time to take a step back and let the institutions of our democracy continue to do our jobs. At the Fed here, everyone should know that we will continue to do what we do every day, which is to serve all Americans and support the economy during this difficult time. Governor Bailey, I'm going to ask you to comment on the same question. And you are a bit freer than Chair Powell to comment on the US election. I'm going to politely take the same line on the US election and of course we follow it with great interest and intensely. And we'll we'll just watch and see how it plays out on the vaccine though. Let me let me, I mean the support and reinforce what Jay said. It's good news obviously it's encouraging and we need we need we need encouraging science but it's true as Jay was saying that it's of course not here yet in terms of the implementation of it. We conditioned our forecast which we published last week on the basis that there would progressively be improvements in the health situation and treatment of COVID. So this is obviously news that is supportive of that but the one point I would emphasize is that this. This year we have seen I think the highest levels of the sense of calibrated uncertainty in the economic outlook certainly in the life of our current monetary policy arrangements which is nearly a quarter of a century. And what is important is that I think gradually as we get more news on the vaccine situation I hope that not only will it obviously give encouragement and hope it will also start to begin to reduce that level of uncertainty. Over the outlook for the future now we're not we're not really there yet as Jay said but that is important I think for for the for monetary policy because we are having to make monetary policy in conditions of extreme uncertainty. President Lagarde I can't see you actually on my on my screen right now but I know that you're there how encouraged are you by the vaccine and how encouraged are you by the US election. Rula you don't miss much by not seeing me and I can see you and I can hear you well so it's perfect. Look that's the way I look at it. We were nine months ago as you said facing a sea of uncertainty. Everything was uncertain and as a result of that forecasting the outlook for the economy was more than an art. It was it was really exceptionally difficult as exceptional was the economic crisis that was a result of the health situation that we inherited. But we are clearly seeing a little less of uncertainty on several fronts. The fact that the US election has now taken place has removed some uncertainty. The fact that Brexit is progressing has probably attenuated the anxiety but not removed the uncertainty yet. And the fact that a vaccine has been announced and seems to be 90 percent efficient and likely to be approved in early 2021 is also removing some uncertainty. So from that sort of huge big river of uncertainty we see the other side now. And what I think is going to be critically important going forward is that the policies that have been in place which have been extremely helpful both monetary policy and fiscal policy help bridge over to the other side of the river and continue to support the economy so that there is as little long lasting damage as possible. But I don't want to be exuberant about this vaccination because there are still uncertainty about the logistic about the transportation about the rolling out about the fabrication about the number of people that will be vaccinated in the course of 2021 so that we can reach the herd immunity which which will then give us more certainty from the health point of view which in turn will facilitate not only our economic forecast but the decisions that will be made by economic agents going forward in terms of consumption in terms of investment in terms of jobs of course. I think a word of your word of caution is important because we saw the market reaction to the vaccine use of course but just anecdotally the mood seems to have changed at least you know around me or the people that I've seen that suddenly people see an end to the pandemic but staying with the macro outlook and with you President Lagarde. You said yesterday that the second wave poses no less danger to the economy than the first. And I'm just wondering because surely there's been some adaptation economies businesses businesses have adapted supply chains have adapted and we now all know how to how to work remotely. Yes you're right we have learned from the first wave and the things that we can do better that we can anticipate better and certainly governments have learned particularly in this part of the world in Europe that a complete lockdown is probably not the most way to deal with the second wave that we are facing. But what I was referring to is a little bit different. It's the risk that consumers investors business owners do not regard that anymore as a one off as this this big hurdle that we had to jump out of those two months lockdown but that it continues to be a lasting matter with recurrence or recurrences of pandemics with recurrences of contagion waves with new lockdown measures and that as a result of that the behaviors the decisions be impaired that people go back into yet more saving of a precautionary nature that those businesses that have managed to to to last and to sustain themselves thanks to the various loans and and availability of financing eventually decide that it's no longer worth the effort and give up. So that's that's the risk that I'm concerned about. And of course you know the the whole hysteresis that can affect the labor market as a result of waves that would last long and that would really disrupt the economy. Governor Bailey, I wanted to ask you realistically how much power can still come from stimulus whether it's QE negative rates or guidance given the already extremely low rates of expected real future interest rates. Well I think the first thing I'd say on that is we have had to I think change the way in which we think about monetary policy operations and you know we we if we can remember it we used to have a world where there was essentially one instrument. And the decisions were around sort of you know the setting of that instrument so rates in other words. Now it's changed it of course it had changed in the post financial crisis world but it's changed even more in the last in the course of this year that not only do we have to think about how we calibrate an instrument that we have to think about what instruments we've got in the toolbox. And then which ones we, you know we bring out in use and that's a very different world. So we've had to, we've had to innovate during the course of this year and so you know the thing that I think is most interesting about the question is that when I look back to what we were saying in answer your question back in February say which seems like an almost sort of period of pre history now. It was radically different from what we're saying today back in February we were suddenly in our case saying, you know, we can see a real a real sort of constraints on policy we didn't think pre code that we were particularly near to that constraint but we were aware of it. And we were way through that constraint in the last nine months and we've had to innovate we've had to innovate in the world of QE had to innovate in the world of guidance. By the way, we've we've had to innovate in QE not only in terms of, you know, the scale of it but also thinking about the pace of it and thinking about what actually, you know what is it that we're responding to and how and what state of the world are we in and how does how do these tools work because they are state contingent. So what we've had to do I think to borrow a phrase from the US actually we've had to think about what I sort of tend to call, you know, QE for the financial sector and QE from or quantitative measures for Main Street as it were so many of us have introduced, you know, new instruments in that field directly in response to that so my question really is we've had to innovate and we will have to go on innovating I think in terms of looking really hard and imaginatively at the toolkit that we've got. So I'm optimistic on that front just on the basis of how we've had to respond this year but of course going back to what we were saying, you know, I fervently hope that as we begin to see progress on the medical funds. That will become less of an issue. I want to come back in a minute to the the long term consequences for for monetary policy. But first I just want to turn to chair Powell. And I want to ask you about the coordination between monetary and and between the monetary and fiscal response, which has been impressive certainly in Europe. Why has the Fed been less successful in pressing Congress and the White House on fiscal stimulus? Well, so we think we've said from the very beginning that this crisis in particular is one that will require a response from all of government. And that's because it's it's really not a typical downturn. This is a downturn where a full employment economy suddenly experienced mass unemployment due to this external shock really a natural disaster. And monetary policy works through stimulating aggregate demand and that's important now but ultimately there was a job to replace lost incomes there and I would say that our Congress stepped in. And there hasn't been a faster or stronger response from Congress to an economic emergency really since the Great Depression. The CARES Act and the other laws that they passed really more than fully offset lost income in the aggregate. Now there will be people for whom that is not true, but it was quite a strong response and you see still high levels of savings on the balance sheets of households. And we've sort of not experienced the downside cases that we were quite worried about of mass insolvencies of companies and businesses and so far so so far so good, I would say. The second really the most important leg of all of course is the health care leg you know as I said earlier, there's no full recovery without confidence that it's safe to undertake all activities. And we had our part to do which which I think we've done. So I would also say though that the path forward is going to be challenging for a number of reasons and I'm sure we'll get into some of them. And that my sense is that we will need to do more and that Congress may need to do more as well in fiscal policy. The actual particulars of that are up to Congress and not up to us. But I do think it's likely that more will need to be done in time. But I would say that our response today has really been quite strong. President Lagarde, I want to talk to you about coordination and cooperation. During the financial crisis, there was a sense of greater coordination on monetary policy. How would you describe the coordination in response to the pandemic? Rula, if you if you are talking about the coordination between us between the the National Central Banks, I would say that it has been spectacular. I mean, both Jay and Andrew will remember vividly those days and those nights when we are we had to collectively respond and put in place that portion of the global financial safety net that we can offer, which has to do with the swap of currencies. And that was particularly the case in the early days of the crisis in mid March, when clearly there was this dash for cash that translated into short term dollar needs on the part of many participants in the markets. And the three of us plus three other large central banks reactivated the swap lines that we had between us in order to make sure that there would be plenty of supply of the currency that was most in demand. And as far as the ECB is concerned, we also reached out to other national central banks in in Eastern Europe and Central Europe in various places and reactivated pre existing swap lines. We also opened some special repo lines with other banks and set up a new instrument as well. That is a European repo facility that is available as well. So I think that amongst us, we have been extremely engaged, active, we coordinated. We faced the storm together and we really closed ranks. If what you're talking about is coordination between monetary authorities and fiscal authorities, certainly in the euro area, there was contrary to what I saw myself during the great financial crisis when I was on the other side in the fiscal front, we saw a much more efficient coordination, a prompt response on the part of both the fiscal authorities and certainly we were very quick and big in order to respond to the situation. I would say that on both accounts, amongst central banks and between here in the euro area, between the central bank and the national as well as the European authorities, really much improved coordination and cooperation. We had asked the audience beforehand to submit certain questions and several of them have raised the issue of cooperation. And one of the questions is whether central banks should be coordinating their action during more normal time rather than during crises. What would you say to that? I would say that there is a lot of cooperation, exchange of views, forum places where we try to coordinate as much as possible and deliver on our respective mandates. We have different mandates, let's recognize that, but we have a lot in common as well and whether it is within the financial stability board, within the BIS and Basel committees. We do talk to each other a lot and we do compare notes and we try to cooperate as is appropriate in accordance with our respective mandate. That's the way I see it at least. Before I turn to the longer term consequences, let me ask you, Governor Bailey, but also Chair Powell to comment on this. There is quite a bit of criticism that lower rate policies are creating unhealthy asset bubbles and there's a question about whether they need to be accompanied by tougher financial regulation. Governor? Well, first of all, I mean, I think it's important to understand that the channels through which particularly quantitative easing work. So I don't think we should be surprised at the general movement of asset prices in response to that. It is part of the transmission effect, but you're right that what we have to watch is the financial stability consequences of it. As Christine was just saying, I mean, there's been an enormous amount of work over the last decade or more, in a sense, under the sort of the sort of the financial stability board to tackle these issues. Now, when I think, if you look at the questions, what have we learned in the last eight or nine months on that front? I think I would divide it into two parts. Without wishing to, this is going to sound complacent, but it's not intended to be, but what I will say is that I think on the banking side, I think we have, this is the first major test of the post financial crisis reforms. I think so far the banking system has stood up to the task. And although it sounds a very sort of cliche thing to say I'll say it I mean what we wanted was a banking system that supported economies not economies that supported the banking system, which unfortunately was the experience of the financial crisis and I think we have seen that actually so I think the, you know, the reforms we put in place to counter cyclical policy approach that we put in place so far I think has stood up now. In the non banking world, if you go back to March, you know, Jay referred to the cash earlier, we have and did see things that did cause us concern, but more particularly actually, and this goes back to Christine's point about about the use of swaps for instance, required very major interventions, major interventions domestically major interventions internationally through the swaps and so on. So it has pointed to areas where there are concerns. The FSB again is leading that work, very important work on non bank financial institutions, really asking two big questions one is, what do we learn about fragilities and systemic fragilities here, in the non bank world is so much bigger. Secondly, given that central banks had to intervene so substantially back in March, in the context of the stresses and financial markets. What do we conclude from that in terms of the, you know, the improvements we can make, both in the regulations, regulatory side in that world but also in terms of the way in which central banks operate because it took us into, into new areas and it gave us new challenges in terms of the non bank part non bank financial world. Chair Powell. I would broaden the question a little if I may and just to say that if you look back over the last 30 years what you've seen is since inflation became more or less under control. There are a series of very long expansions that have not ended because of high inflation and central bank policy tightening, but instead have ended through the build up of financial imbalances and ultimately through financial instability. And I think we, we finally internalize that lesson as a result of the global financial crisis, and went to work to dramatically strengthen and make more resilient the banking system and also other aspects many other aspects of the financial system. I think you asked about low rates the fact of low rates is actually a small we are now in an era of low rates but really that trend was in place beforehand so we've been at that for a decade now and I would agree with everything Andrew said, I would add that you know I think the first draft of history is that our banks have done well in this crisis so far, I would emphasize so far. It's not at all time for complacency, but, and as Andrew said there, there's, what we will do now is look across. The non bank financial remediation sector, where there were some issues and I think the FSP and all of us are looking carefully at what we might learn from that and what things we might do. So, I do think when we took away from the last crisis, a very strong focus on financial stability, we have a division here, we have a public framework for assessing financial stability, publish financial stability report earlier this week we did so our framework is out there for public comment. We monitor on an ongoing basis, and all of that is a complete sea change from the way we approach these issues before the global financial crisis. And we're, I think it's very much on us in this era of a blow for long rates to keep at that, and we will. President Lagarde, how vulnerable do you think our companies balance sheet and banks balance sheet particularly to a prolonged downturn. I think a lot of bankers that I talked to are relieved that the first wave wasn't as dramatic, but we have yet to see a lot of bankruptcies, a lot of job losses. Do you think that they might be complacent? Well, Rula, two things. One is, as I said yesterday, I think it's critically important that we can maintain the financing conditions that have been operating well in order to sustain the economy so far. And to stabilize it, and to make sure that companies can borrow and benefit from almost the lowest interest rates ever at the moment, that households can get mortgages at the lowest ever rate interest rates at the moment. So continuing to provide those financing terms at that level over a sufficiently long period of time, and I think that the level is important, but the maturity over which those terms will be available is also of critical importance. And as this crisis is continuing from one wave to the other, as the lockdown measures are hammering the economy from one set of lockdowns to the other, it is really, really important that financing be accommodative and that the maturity be sufficiently long so that the refinancing by the corporates be at terms that can be expected and that will support the economy. As far as the banks are concerned, I would completely subscribe to what both Andrew and Jay have said. Through the last 13 years, particularly past the great financial crisis and the great efforts undertaken by the Financial Stability Board, by the regulatory authorities around the world, the banks are much more solid. They are much more capitalized. The leverage is much more under control. The liquidity ratios are imposing sufficient caution on the banks. And as a result of that, they, as Andrew said, they operated as facilitators, as solution finders, as opposed to being at the core of the problem as was the case 12, 13 years ago. But I would say that in the current circumstances and I would completely second what Jay said when he said so far, I think it's also necessary that banks be very attentive to their current balance sheets and to particularly the health of the corporate accounts that they finance because it is clear that in some sectors in particular, there will be difficulties, there will be bankruptcies, there will be exit from certain sectors and that it will take time for those that exit to actually re-enter somehow and somewhere in a different area of business. So in the meantime, clearly, some impairments will have to be acknowledged, some non-performing loans will have to be provisions. And I think it's in the interest of the banking sector and of financial stability at large to do that in a reasonable, sensible, transitional way so that there is no NPL shock that we would fear if it was to happen all of a sudden. I have to say that the measures that were taken from a fiscal point of view in order to provide moratorium, in order to provide those particular schemes that attenuated the hardship of the crisis have been a great shield. But that shield will eventually be lifted at some stage and I hope that that happens gradually as the provisioning takes place gradually as well. Governor Bailey, I wonder if you could answer the same question but put it more in light of the B word, Brexit. How comfortable are you that the financial sector is ready for Brexit? And if I could also ask, how worried are you about a no-deal Brexit? Well, on the financial sector, we've done a very substantial amount of work with the financial sector over a number of years now and we've published the assessment of the state of that preparatory work regularly in our financial stability reports. And I do think the financial sector has taken it very seriously. I think an enormous amount of preparation has gone on. So if I had to sort of in a sense calibrate our view on that, I think the financial sector has been able to do a lot more preparation. Whether there are further decisions on equivalence or not, I think the financial sector is ready as it were in that sense for what will come. I think it's been harder for quite a large part of the non-financial sector because obviously there is the uncertainty about the question of the trade agreement and that uncertainty remains outstanding. And that is much more of a material issue in terms of preparations. It's in many ways quite binary obviously for many firms in that sense. Now, we do a lot of work in thinking about our view, obviously our forecast, the economy and also our work on financial stability to assess preparedness. And obviously a lot of work has gone on, notwithstanding the uncertainty. We said that in the report we published last week, we said we've sort of a broad approximation. We thought around about 70% of affected firms had done a lot of preparations. I have to tell you that when you ask them, they do have a tendency to say the following. They will say, we're as ready as we can be. I've heard that one too. Now that of course leaves you wondering, so what do they mean by can be? And that is an issue clearly. Now, let me just say this. I've said it many times, I'll say it again. The best outcome here is there is a trade agreement all round. I'm not making a particular UK point here. I think the best outcome all round is a trade agreement and I really hope there will be one. I'm encouraged that those discussions are and the process is going on. And that would of course help, but let's be clear, of course, any trade agreement now is a change from what we've had up till now because the UK is leaving the customs union leaving the single market. So there will be an adjustment process. Now, I would hope that if there is a trade agreement, there will be a spirit of goodwill around it and that some of the inevitable changes of processes that will disrupt things in terms of adjustment can be managed more smoothly. I'd be more concerned if there isn't a trade agreement, frankly, and we default to the WTO terms because that might denote also that spirit of goodwill might not be there, frankly. So I think there's every reason now to hope and encourage the trade agreement to happen, but it's obviously not for us to determine the outcome. Hope, encourage, would you use the word expect? Are you expecting the deal? No, I'm not going to prejudge because I'm not part of the process. I'm not going to prejudge where it's got to. So I'm going to stick to hope and encourage those are good verbs I think for this context. Okay. Chair Powell, recent change is that the Fed will now treat the employment mandate as a broad based and inclusive goal, which recognizes that macro policy has to work for the margins of the labor market. Could you tell us what's led to this change and what the likely impact will be? Sure. So a couple of things. One I would say that the long standing disparities in income within groups and between groups are a feature of our economy. In fact, inequality between groups and within groups has been increasing. And so we've noted that that's something that holds back the U.S. economy as a general matter. And so we focus more on those and we have in the past and called those things out as ways for the U.S. economy to grow so that everybody can take part and contribute to and benefit from broad prosperity. The more recent thing actually is that we were able to observe very low unemployment by historical standards for an extended period of time. Unemployment was between three and a half and 4% for two full years and we didn't see high inflation. We didn't see high wage inflation. We didn't see high price inflation. We didn't see any sort of notable problems in the labor market misallocation and things like that. And what we did see was that in the seventh, eighth and ninth year of the prior very long expansion, the benefits began to flow more to people at the lower end of the income spectrum. And that was wages. That was record low gaps between, for example, white and black unemployment. It was labor force participation critically, which is an area where the United States has lagged many other advanced economies. We saw labor force participation rising well above what the trend had been. So we saw great benefits. And that was one of the things that motivated you pointed to one change in the monetary policy review we just did. So what we said is that we'll react to shortfalls in employment from full employment. And that we regard maximum employment, which is our statutory goal, as a broad and inclusive goal. So that's meant to pull both of those thoughts in. And those are two key aspects of our new framework. President Lagarde, you have a different mandate, but I did want you to come in here because one of the things that we've noticed in this crisis is that the burden has not been evenly shared. And there's been a disproportionate impact on minorities, on women. And I think that's something you've talked about before. And a widening of the divide in wealth and in economic mobility. How worried are you about lasting damage and can monetary policy play a role? Rula, you are completely correct in referring to the uneven consequences. And it's becoming very clear as we are collecting numbers. It's the women who have been affected quite significantly more than men. It is young people who have been affected significantly more than the average worker. And on those two categories in particular, it's likely to actually leave long-lasting scars. And why do I say that? Because, particularly for the young people, because there have been research now to show that when young people are not given access to the job market or lose access because they are on short term, because they are on internship. It stays with them for another 10 or 15 years. And the jobs that they have 10 or 15 years later is at a lower paid, it's less qualified. So the scarring effect is empirically demonstrated. And it is clear that in this particular crisis, young people are more affected. It's obvious. For the women, it has a different consequence in a way, because it's largely attributable to the sectorial aspect of the crisis. When you look at those sectors that are most affected, you talk about tourism, accommodation, transportation, the retail sector, which are sectors that employ largely more women than men and generally at the lower end of the wage scale. And those households typically are those that have a propensity to consume that is higher. And if you take that out of the market, clearly the consumption is not going to be pushed up by those wage earners that have essentially left the labor market. They're not either employed, nor are they unemployed. They're discouraged. They know that it's not going to pay back if they go back into the labor market. So yes, I'm concerned about that. And although it is not our mandate, our mandate is price stability. I think that it's one of the reasons why on this particular crisis it's so important that fiscal can be a very active agent in order to address the current situation, in order to maintain the income of those who are losing their job for a period of time and in order to provide for the training and the skill sets that will help them get to the other side of the river with an ability to get a job probably in a different sector. Governor Bailey, you've talked about the new economy, the economy of the future. What are the changes that you see? Well, like Jane Christine, I do think that the effects have been very uneven. And of course, I don't, in a way, that's not surprising. I mean, we've seen a very uneven recovery so far. And that reflects the fact that obviously those parts of the economy in those sectors that involve close human interaction are much more heavily affected. So those sectors undoubtedly, as Jane Christine has said, have a much greater concentration of low paid workers in them and also distributions with gender and ethnicity as well. And that's very troubling and important. Now I do think and if we come back to where we started this discussion, I mean, I do think that obviously the, you know, the more rapid the sustained recovery from this, the less the longer term scarring will be because more firms will be able to come through, more activity will revive. And that's a good thing. And that's why we've, I mean, we tended to take the view that scarring will, I'm afraid, be a feature of the economy, but it won't necessarily be as large as some of the, some of the sun forecasters think it is. Because I think some of them I suspect rely rather too much on history. And if you go back to certainly the 80s and the 90s, where you saw much larger scarring and much more sustained scarring. Because it was very much a sort of structural move out of heavy industry out of heavy manufacturing into services out of things like coal mining, where you had far more capital scrapping far more long term unemployment. I'm more optimistic on that front, in that I think this is a, this these will probably be movements within sectors as much as between sectors but it is still very serious I don't want to play it down at all. I don't want to play it down in J on this. Marishi policy. Yeah, it has a role but let's be clear it's not, you know, it's not it's not something that we can do either alone or be the primary focus on although I do think also that very large amount of work we all do to understand economic analysis and to understand our economies has a hope of wider benefits in terms of framing thinking about how to address these issues. So looking at the future what we do know chair Powell is that this crisis has accelerated certain trends digitalization, for example. And this will lead to certain changes in economies, there are firms that will never recover from the crisis there are potentially sectors that may that may never recover from the crisis, we won't be traveling as much for for example. What worries you most about the long term impact. I would agree that what this crisis is in the process of doing is it is accelerating a lot of pre existing technological change so technological change raises productivity generally and over long periods of time those gains tend to be broadly shared. But in the short term that may or may not be the case. And I, along with many others will leave social media out of it by the way in terms of adding to productivity. I wouldn't not sure I would say that for social media, but for other kinds of technology I would say it. And in this particular situation, I would worry that the changes were not going back to the same economy we're going we're recovering but to a different economy and it will be one that is more leveraged to technology and I worried that that is going to make it even more difficult than it was for for many workers who as Andrew just mentioned you know the it's a relatively low paid public facing workers in the service sector who are bearing the brunt this is largely minorities and women are skewed toward minorities and women and relatively low paid so those people are going to struggle to get back to work in their old jobs or in many cases a new job so I mean I think you'll see more telework you'll see probably the acceleration of automation. All of that was in the process of happening but you're going to see much more of it and I guess that for me the main takeaway from all of this is that, even after the unemployment rate goes down and the economy is, you know, and there's a vaccine. There's probably a substantial group of workers who are going to need support as they find their way in the post pandemic economy because it's going to be different in some fundamental ways. President Lagarde would you like would you like to comment on this. Well because I think that it's a coin that has two sides. And yes sectors will be affected and will be transformed and there will be losses and liabilities and and and and damage, but sectors will also be transformed in a positive way. If you look at for instance medical services, which typically were not heavily digitalized and where the personal contact was still regarded as the the prevalent way of providing medical services. This is radically changing at the moment and I'm sure that Jay has those numbers as well but you know it was something like 11% of Americans who used telemedicine. It's now moved up to almost 50% and of those 50% most of them are quite happy with what they're getting and they're happy to actually continue with it. So in the same way, you know, payments have been also significantly transformed and you know closer to home in a way where a lot of digital payments are accelerating are pushing us in the direction of exploring alternative modes of payments. And there there will be transformation that will be beneficial. There will be sectors that are services that were not available that can be now provided from anywhere to somewhere, you know, to use the David Goodhart analogies. And that can be extremely beneficial. Plus, you know, being a little bit from my corner here in Europe, it will accelerate digitalization, which is an area where Europe was a little bit lagging behind and where clearly much progress had to be made. So to the extent that this is supported by the training that is necessary, the skill setting resetting however it's called now, I think that it will be beneficial for for productivity in in Europe in particular. If I could come back in there, it's just to reinforce what Christine has said, I mean we've had a certainly a story of low productivity growth for 10 years now. And that is part of the story about low interest rates, I mean structurally low interest rates. So, I don't want to, I don't want to lessen the challenge of transition but I really reinforce what Christine has just said that there are opportunities here. It's interesting if you look at productivity across sectors because retailing is actually one of the sectors that in recent years has had stronger productivity growth where we've seen structural change. So Christine's right I think to sort of point to opportunities as well. President Lagarde mentioned digital currencies we have a question from from the audience. Several members of the audience are asking how central banks see the prospects for for central bank digital currencies, and also whether this would risk crowding out cash and non cash electronic payments. Let's start with chair power. So here at the Fed and in the United States were committed to carefully and thoughtfully evaluating the potential costs and benefits of a central bank digital currency which we all call it a CBDC for the US economy for our payment system and also for the international implications. We've been actively participating with Andrew and Christine and other central banks at the BIS to look at this and we feel that's been a very productive collaboration. We haven't made a decision to issue a central bank digital currency, and we think there's quite a lot of work yet to be done as we, as we engage with public constituencies here in the United States and around the world. Also the dollar is the world's principle reserve currency and I assure you that we will approach that question with with great care from our standpoint. The main focus is on on whether and how a CBDC could improve what is already a safe effective and dynamic domestic payment system. We actually do still have strong demand for cash here which is I think it's different than than than some other jurisdictions so we really would need this to be done in a way that does not preempt the use of cash or the use of other private digital currencies in or or or non central bank digital currencies, such as the Fed now payment thing that we that we've announced. The last thing I'll say is, you know, we feel an obligation to be on the frontier of research on technology and and policy development on this. But we as the as the as the main reserve currency we do feel it's critical that we that we get it right as opposed to try to be the first, you know, in a way where we're the incumbent reserve currency and so we're going to be very careful and and engage quite intensively on this before we make it as soon. President Lagarde, there's an expectation the ECB will be first. We're not racing to be first. And we believe that a digital euro will not be a substitute for cash. It will be a complement to cash. And clearly it's not, you know, it's it's it's not a nicety. It's not a tantrum. It is something that if it is cheaper, faster, more secure for the users, then we should explore it. If it is going to contribute to a better monetary sovereignty, a better autonomy for the euro area, I think we should explore it. And you know, if it is going to facilitate cross border payments, which are very laborious in quite a few corners of our big world, then we should explore it. So that's the reason why we have launched a consultation in mid October that will be completed in mid January. And at that point in time, we will make the decision as to whether or not we go forward with a digital euro. And my my hunch, but this is a decision that will be taken collectively, is that we might well go in that direction, which does not mean that a digital euro is going to be available right away. Because obviously, we are going to have to address all the issues of anti money laundering, financing of terrorism, privacy of users and all the information, the appropriate technology that will carry that digital currency. And this is, you know, a project that will probably take us two, three, four years before it is before it is launched. Just to give you an indication, the PBOC, which is PBOC, which is the central bank of China, I started exploring this about five years ago. In the same way, Facebook, which is exploring a private stablecoin, has started about four years ago and their Libra is certainly well advanced. But it's also a good reason for all of us to be very attentive to the way in which monetary policy can be secured and monetary transmission can be safeguarded. So those are the reasons why we are moving ahead and diligently, not unconsciously. So we will be prudent. We know it will not replace cash, but my hunch is that it will come. There has been, of course, a lot of central bank resistance to Libra, which doesn't look to me like it's going to go very far. But I was interested in what you said about autonomy. Is that a main driver for the ECB? No, I think the main driver is to respond to our customers. What do the people of Europe want? How do they want to pay? How do they want to use payments? And it is clear that in some of the euro area countries, member states, the use of cash is significantly declining to the benefit of digital payments. If you look at a country like Sweden, for instance, if you look at the Netherlands, it's moving extremely fast. And the pandemic has accelerated this. The pandemic has definitely accelerated that. Instant payment and digital payments have increased significantly over the course of the last few months. Where does the Bank of England stand? Well, first of all, by the way, there's a real paradox of cash, which is that there's no question, and we all observe this and probably part of it, that the use of cash is declining. It was declining before the pandemic, and it certainly has during the pandemic. Although I agree with Christine that I don't think it's ever going to go away. On the other hand, the amount of cash in circulation, the amount of public demands from central banks continues to rise, so that's a paradox. I think the, I think the important thing I would add to this is the private current the private stable coin proposals. I mean, for me, a critical public policy issue here is that people I think have a right to expect certainty of value in the instrument they use to make payments and so they should not have to worry about the value of the of the instruments in which they're making their exchanging value for in payments. Now I have to say that I think that means that the bar is set very high for private stable coins. And I don't think they've met that bar. I haven't met that bar in my view. I think that the answer to that bar is actually central bank digital currency, where obviously you would get that guarantee that that certainty of value would be assured because that's what central banks provide. Now that question is yet to be answered, but it is to my mind a critical question but if I could finish that there's a there's a number of other very big questions that follow from that which are more into the sort of heart of central which is that if you introduce that instrument. How does it affect monetary policy and financial stability because it will do it will do both in normal times and in stress times and we need to, you know we're going to have to do a lot of hard work to think through the implications of that and we will do we will do. I want I want to turn to climate change. And I know there've been many questions about that that the ECB is more active of course on the green one sector and you are looking President Lagarde at your mandate. How how's the strategic review going and where where do you want to land. I can't say but it's it's going well and clearly as part of the key the key elements that we're exploring. It won't surprise you if I mentioned the level of inflation and the aim that we have the horizon that we're looking at. And you know the relation between inflation and the economy and the tools that we will use or the combination of tools that we will use in order to steer demand when it's needed. So those are the sort of key planks of our strategy review. But we're looking beyond that at some some other elements that actually are directly relevant to our price stability objective and the one that I'm particularly keen on is climate change. And and I've heard many many criticism as to you know why would we look at that and why can't central banks stick to their mandate and be completely ignoring or completely ignore those other issues. Fair point except that those matters actually affect price stability. If you have repeated major weather catastrophic situation if you have repeated drought it is going to affect our aim inflation. In a direct way if we have carbon taxation it is going to impact our aim in an indirect way. And clearly if there is so much uncertainty associated with climate change and the risks resulting from that that people actually change their saving behavior. It is going to move down the natural interest rates and that matters to us clearly in the way in which we define our policies going forward. So if only for those reasons not to mention the issue of appropriate pricing of assets given that externalities are not necessarily well taken into account. If only for those two reasons that I have just mentioned we must look into the climate change issues in the way in which they relate to monetary policy and impact on our price stability objective. So that's what we will be doing. No more detail than that. Well it's pretty good what I gave you. I'll have to ask I'll have to ask my correspondence. The chair Powell the Fed acknowledged that financial risks of the financial risks of climate change and the financial stability report. Does that signal more cooperation on climate change between the feds and the likely Biden administration. Again I'm not going to that that would be me commenting indirectly on the on the election which I won't do but I will comment on the climate change aspect of it. So we do think that that central banks and that we the Fed had have a contribution to make here. We also think that climate change is clearly an issue that requires a broader societal across government across the private sector response. So we're just part of that. But from our standpoint we think that the public will expect and has every right to that we will make sure that the financial system is resilient against you know all sorts of major risks including climate change. And in our in our financial stability report they were released earlier this week pardon me we noted the connections between climate change risk and financial stability. So I do think we take those on board we've been working with the network for greener the financial system we've been attending those meetings I think we're in the process of applying for membership there now so there's been significant collaboration. Mostly behind the scenes but central banks around the world are working on this and what they're real what we're really working on is is how do we incorporate climate change risk into all that we do as Christine mentioned it has potential implications for monetary policy. And that's the bank regulation for financial stability and we're at the I would say very early stages of just trying to work through what that means and for our goals I think it is it follows from our assigned legal mandates though that we that we do this work. Governor Bailey quickly because I still have one question to all three of you and I'm running out of time. Very quickly I'd agree with with Jan Christine on this I just thought that I think as we think as we were thinking about you know investment in the recovery from covert them then thinking about how we can do that and pursue climate change is very is very important. Good OK I usually like to end my panels on a note of optimism but today I started with optimism. So my last question is one that I discussed with Martin Wolf our famous economics commentator. And when I said to him what would you what would you ask the panelist he said this given where we are today what frightens you most we're going to we're going to start with Governor Bailey. Well I think we've lived through this year with us with a huge shock to economy. I mean you know it's the biggest shock since we think in the UK since the early 18th century entirely unpredictable in terms of its its start. It is it has changed course with incredible speed. You think about the way in which covert has moved around this year. Now I hope I hope we can take the optimistic view that you said earlier but you know I think we've had to get used to saying you know we are living in a world of huge uncertainty and unpredictability and that is that is you know I don't like to see the people of this country. We have a duty to in respect of our public policy objectives and it's a very important duty. I don't like to see them in that position. It's one that makes me very uncomfortable and you know we've got to do everything we can but it's it's a very very difficult place to be in. Chair Powell. So for me it would be the risk that there is some longer run damage to productive capacity or of the economy and to people's lives who have been disrupted by the pandemic and it's it's women who are not by choice out of the labor force. It's kids who aren't getting the education they should be getting its small businesses that that there may be generations of intellectual institutional capital that's being destroyed. And it's just workers who are you know out of work for a long period of time and losing their connection to the labor force and really losing the life that they had so that that is that is the that's the thing that I worry about the most. Preston Lagarde. You have the last word. OK. Two things I'm frightened of. One is the silliness and the ubris that could activate some people to start another war. We just celebrated the hundred and one anniversary of the First World War and the thought that we could go back into something like that is just horrifying to me. So I hope we'll be wise enough to stay away from that and have the means to diplomatically avoid that. And the second thing that frightens frightens me. It looks a bit silly but it's not that silly. It's the the mink. I'm not sure you all have heard about the Danish minks and the millions of them that are being killed at the moment. Because it really it's a sign that the virus which came from this pangolin to man went from man to mink and is now going from mink to man. And that would be a devastating piece of news because it would mean that any vaccination that is being discovered at the moment would effectively not work on that new transformation of the virus. So I hope we are good enough wise enough and can jointly take responsibility to put a stop to that. Well with worries about minks and wars I'm going to have to bring this panel to a close. But just to tell you we are writing a lot about what's happening with the minks. So do turn to the FT and you'll read what you need about it. Thank you so much for this panel and goodbye. Goodbye. Thank you. Thank you. Chair Powell Governor Bailey. Thank you President Lagarde for certainly diverse rich debate which we all enjoyed very much. Let us now turn to another special moment of today's program. So that's where I go. Hello. My name is Chrissie Giants. I'm 28 years old and I'm from the Netherlands. My name is Antonio Marci. I am 29 years old and I am from Italy. My name is Indio T. I'm 32 years old and I'm from China. My work studies monetary policy in economies with domestic and international production chains. I'm interested in the interaction between monetary policy and financial stability. My research is on the role of information choice in macroeconomics and finance. I'm interested in finance and development. I do research in banking and copy finance. My work is about the policies of the European Central Bank which directly affect the risk premium on the sovereign debt of peripheral countries. I study how long-term investors change their bond holdings, after shift in regulation and how this change has subsequently affected interest rates. I found that savers choose to get more information about which bank or product they should use for their saving in recessions. My work explores how voter preferences determine financial regulation, focusing in particular on the role of political connections in this process. In Cintra we would have welcomed young economists on stage. Here we welcome this to our virtual video wall as it were for this year's award ceremony. We're joined by Angelo D'Andrea, Christy Janssen, Alistair Macaulay, Antonia Marsi, Roxana Mihet, Ing-Gi-Si, Magdalena Rolaianichka, Elisa Rubo and Xueng Wang. Let me now invite to the podium once again President Lagarde who will announce the winner and then conclude this year's forum. Thank you very much, Thierry. As you mentioned, young people play a critical role and an integral role in shaping the future of Europe and the world. And as you've had a small taste of it in the video that was just played, the ECB's Young Economist Competition now in its seventh year gives us the invaluable opportunity to hear their fresh perspectives on the challenges we face. And they are PhD students from across the globe as you may have noted from their names. Now those entering this year's competition were invited to submit papers addressing the theme of the forum, that is central banks in a shifting world. Submissions were rated both from their academic quality and their policy relevance. We received a total of 103 entries and nine finalists whose name you just heard who are on screen now were chosen. Congratulations to all of you who were chosen. Nine, that is four men and five women from six different countries whose research focused on topics including currency union, financial regulations and digitalizations to name a few. And if you in the audience have not yet had a chance, I would strongly encourage you to have a look at the work of all of our finalists on the ECB's website. And I'd like to thank all the forum participants who took the time to vote on the entries. Your votes were taken into account by the members of this year's selection committee, the jury, chairperson Philip Hartman, Ines Cabral and Glenn Sheppens from the ECB, John Mulbauer, Professor of Economics at Newfield College in Oxford and Ricardo Reis, Professor of Economics at the London School of Economics. And now having given my congratulations to all of you, the nine of you, I'm delighted to announce the winner of this year's Young Economist competition who will take home the prize of 10,000 euros. And the winner is Roxana Mihet, who recently obtained her PhD at New York University and is now an assistant professor at the University of Lausanne for her paper, Who Benefits from Financial Innovation. Congratulations, I see a massive smile on your face and I'm delighted for you, well done. So I'm sure you will all congratulate our winner on this impressive achievement and I hope you can join me now on the live stream to give us a short insight into the topic of your paper and the relevance of your research in today's world. So floor is yours. So I would like to start by thanking the president of the ECB, Christine Lagarde and all of the members of the selection committee for granting me this award. I'm truly humbled to have been selected among such a strong group of brilliant young economists. I've been extremely impressed by their research papers, exploring some of the main challenges currently facing our economy. So my own paper is on a subject that has received a lot of attention in the past few years, how new financial technologies transforming our society by changing the way people think about their finances. So in this paper, I find that the explosion of new financial information technologies for retail investors does not guarantee broad increases in household wealth. Instead, the sophisticated investors who already have high levels of wealth are most likely to benefit from many of the new technologies. So my research has implications regarding wealth redistribution in today's new world. It also offers suggestions for a guided access to disruptive technologies and capital access and for the ways in which financial technology should be regulated. I find that to accelerate positive structural change policy makers need to lay the foundations for fair competition through the democratization of both data and financial technology. So thank you very much again to the selection committee and the president for the opportunity to participate in this competition. And thank you for the price. I truly feel very honored for being surrounded by so much talent. Thank you. Well, thank you very much, Roxana. Those are very, very good words and a good description of the work that you have done. I just want to make sure that you see the award that will be shipped instantly to you so that you can receive it as will be the 10,000 euros. And you'll have to tell us whether you prefer digital transmission or any other ways of transmitting, but you will get it. I can promise you. So before I formally conclude the edition of the forum, let me take this moment to thank all of you for your valued contributions which have made this year's event such a success. It was different, but it was really fascinating. And I for myself have learned a lot by listening to all your presentations and reading your papers. I would also like to thank each of the speakers, the discussants and the panelists for presenting your research and your perspectives over the last two days. And even though this year's was a virtual one, we have had the opportunity to hear stimulating views and to benefit from the open and very lively discussions that have always characterized the ECB forum on central banking. Let me also thank both myself but on behalf of all of you, the organizing team at the ECB for the really hard work and for adapting so quickly and being so agile in making this event happen in difficult and changing circumstances. It's almost worked to perfection. And frankly, if you would see the backstage, it's a lot of work and it's a lot of long days and short nights for many of them. So I now have the pleasure of announcing the next year's event. It is scheduled to take place from the 28th to the 30th of June 2021. So mark down in your calendar right away 28th to 30th of June 2021. With a bit of luck, we will see each other in Cintra. And I want again to thank you all very much for this year event and wish you a pleasant evening and please be well. Congratulations, Roxana.