 What if God decides to lay off in the middle of the crazy tag layoff season, but it decides to make you ahead of product in two months, and you never saw the opportunity would be available to you. However, everybody can make it happen if you put in the right strategy, just like our guest, Kashif. Hi guys, this is Doc Nian, CD, a direct product and featured in Forbes. I help 100 people land their dream PM job offer in fan companies and unicorn startup and continue to get promoted as a product leader. In this channel, we talk about free product management and training and tech trends. Like and subscribe and see our new videos every Tuesday. So welcome, welcome, Kashif. And we're so excited to have you as a head of product and congrats on your new role as a head of product. Thank you so much, Dr. Nancy. And first of all, thank you for having me here. I'm really excited. You know, share my journey, share my experiences of becoming a head of product and definitely giving, you know, some of my tips and recommendations for upcoming, you know, product managers. Yeah, this is awesome. Yeah, thank you for joining us today, Kashif. Can you tell us roughly regarding your background and also what kind of company do you work for as a head of product? Yeah, absolutely. So I've a product manager for a long time for about more than six years, but my background is mainly telecom. So I've worked in the telecom industry for, you know, companies like AT&T, T-Mobile, Ericsson, Nokia for about more than 20 years. You know, I've worked in various capacities like customer success, product management and in sales as well. I've worked in business development as well, but most recently for about six, seven years, I made a shift to product management, more specifically technical product management in the areas of B2B SaaS. So that's most recently my experience. And, you know, currently I'm working as a head of product for a company called AirSight and we're in the business of, which is a very, very exciting, a new field of drone security and early detections. You know, it's a really exciting field and I'm loving my job as a product, head of product. Congratulations. Yeah, I remember as a time when you're looking into this position and it's like this is definitely a blue ocean strategy and very few companies working on this drone detection and also has some AI element in it as well, right? Absolutely, yeah. So the good thing about this field is that it is a mix of both hardware and software. So hardware-wise, you know, I'm working with exciting tech like radars and thermal cameras. And on the software side, I'm working on cutting edge software technologies around AI and ML, specifically around object detection in videos. So we're using cutting edge algorithms for object identification and classification. Algorithms like YOLO, which is very, very popular for quick object detection and classification. So really exciting work. This is very exciting. I remember when I work on Smart Cities years ago for my first job, I was also working on using AI through machine vision to detect different kinds of cars, pedestrians, reduce car crashes. We're back to the same technology, same industry. This is very exciting. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. So you were detecting people and cars and I'm detecting drones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Similar technology for different applications. Our technology eventually overlapped. But right now, AI is also very hard and more and more people get into the space. And so exciting to see more and more people are adapting AI and changing people's lives. Awesome. And Kashif, why don't we talk more regarding your journey to head of product? As you mentioned, you already have 20 years experience in telcon industry, but in total only six years experience. But usually philosophy over six years experience, it's hard for them to become a head of product, right? I know you also have a team of people reporting to you right now, very, very exciting. Tell us more, how did you start your journey to head of product? And also especially what challenges are you facing when you start your journey to become a head of product? Yeah, absolutely. My journey actually started becoming a head of product through a not-so-I would say fortunate event in my life. So I got, as you know, the economy and the market right now is pretty tough and it's been like that since more than a year now after COVID. So during the beginning of this year, like a lot of people in the tech space, I got laid off at my last company, where I was working for more than six years as a technical product manager. So that was the big shift in my life, kind of like a moment where I had to reassess and rethink and reevaluate everything that I was doing and where I was going in the career. And that moment actually provided me a lot of self-reflection. And I started thinking of, you know, that, you know, I've been working in this space for more than 20 years in the technical field and as a technical product manager for more than six years. I think I deserve more and I wanna, you know, achieve more both as, you know, personal satisfaction and in my career-wise. So in that moment, I started searching how I can improve myself and how I can get there in a smarter way because it's all about working smarter, not just, you know, harder. So, and, you know, that's when I stumbled upon your PMA program. And if you remember one of your free sessions and you were going over, you know, how you have helped hundreds and thousands of people realize their dreams and get the dream job. And that's what really excited me and pushed me to, you know, really, you know, consider your program and join that program. And I think it was one of my, you know, best decisions in life because it enabled me because I already had the experience and the skills and the, you know, knowledge, but I did not know how to talk about my skills, how to talk about my achievements, how to present myself in front of hiring managers in a way that, you know, my skills and my achievements would be showcased. So that was a challenge that I overcame through your program and it helped me to realize my dream of becoming a, you know, head of product or, you know, a senior level product manager. So, yeah, absolutely. So all kudos to you, Dr. Nancy, on your program. Thank you, Kashif. Can you be specific regarding, I think there's an important insight and also vulnerability you mentioned. All of a sudden you got laid off and you have so many years experience. People just didn't see you as a head of product or even that direct level, any level. So how did you, what strategy did you use to repackage your story? And also, like, I never asked you this question. Did you think you wanted to reach the head of product level at the time before you discover us or you say, oh, let me see. And all of a sudden it become a head of product? Yeah, so that's a great question. You know, of course at that time when you're laid off, you're just thinking about, okay, how can I quickly get back into the job market? And to be honest, I wasn't thinking about at that time of becoming a head of product. I was just thinking enough, okay, I need to get at least a senior PM position or maybe if I get lucky, a director product management position. But, you know, when I joined your program and I started going through all of, you know, other people's journeys and stories and how they achieved, you know, success and greatness, I started to get the confidence that, you know, I can become a head of product. And that's why when, you know, I started applying to more senior level positions like director, you know, product officer and have a product and because I got the confidence, your program enabled me to really talk about myself in a way, you know, because I came from a technical telecom background and I didn't know how to talk about those transferable skills that you can present, you know, in front of a hiring manager that can really make the difference between a good candidate and a bad candidate. So it's really talking about those transferable skills coming from previous experiences and jobs and showcasing your achievements if you have a product management experience. That really, I think, helped me and gave me the confidence to go for something like, you know, I had a product in just six, seven years. Thankfully, I was able to make that impression on the hiring team. You know, I went through about three to four rounds and all senior level executives, you know, like head of engineering, he interviewed me, head of marketing, he interviewed me, a higher level executive which was the chief revenue officer, he interviewed me and at the end, you know, the CEO, he interviewed me and I was able to pass all of them. It's not an easy journey. Of course, if you find yourself in a position that I found myself in, when I got laid off, you know, it's tough to get yourself back up on your feet. And that's where, you know, more often than not, we think that we don't need help, but we do need help. And that's where I think programs like PMA come in and really help you to get that confidence that you need when you're down. So that was a big challenge for me at that time and a big roadblock that I needed to lift myself up. And I think your program helped me just do that. Thank you. Yeah, I can imagine how hard it is that you already had 20 years experience in the tailgown industry and just like leadership position already at the senior p.m. for six years. All of a sudden people say, well, the job was taken away. Now you have a family, a huge family to feed and they're very stressful, as you said. That number one is really to rebuild confidence. That number two is like telling stories, repackage your transport skills, and press everybody in the exact level so that they can offer you this head of product position. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing all the, like, the insider, like, vulnerability or journey with us. So now Kashiw, let me ask you this question. Actually, we don't have that many head of product on our channel. So tell us what the new challenges you're facing right now as head of product in your company, what does it look like to be a head of product? It's quite different from when you are a senior product manager because head of product is more about, I would say, building a team, you know, growing a team and growing as a product team together. So it's more about motivating your team for, you know, everyday product management tasks and, you know, helping them out achieve not just success for the company but for them as individuals as well. So it's all about succeeding together. So, you know, my day, every day, you know, is more towards, you know, doing, you know, strategic planning meetings, doing, you know, team collaboration meetings with, you know, not just my core product team and the key stakeholders, my, you know, sort of like extended team which is a cross-functional team. It's also about, you know, customer engagement, you know, keeping in sync and impulse with the market and trends and, you know, doing customer analysis, looking into customer support issues and seeing, you know, how we can improve our products to give a better experience and also the most importantly, you know, doing a new product development and doing oversight. So it's all of that. All of the things that we were doing as a senior product manager, just the scope is now broader and we have to think a little bit more about, you know, revenue and, you know, strategic direction, product vision and, you know, how we can align our cross-functional teams around that product vision and keeping them aligned. So it's more about strategy and team collaboration, I would say. This is amazing. Sounds like lots of responsibility. So quick question. How many hours do you work every day? Sounds like lots of stuff you need to do every single day. I'm working close to about, you know, six to eight hours, although I'm trying to cut back on that and try to bring a little bit more work-life balance into my life. But as my company is in a startup and we're in a, you know, really, you know, green field kind of situation and we're trying to really establish ourselves as a leader in this space right now in the U.S. So yeah, I mean, I think it comes with the job that you have to work longer hours. So yeah, I'm working, you know, around eight to 10 hours a day. So sometimes it becomes overwhelming and you just think like you want to unplug. Yeah, I can imagine when I was a director, I felt like I was super long hours as well. I think that's what it takes once you put on the leadership position, which is also lots of people do not talk about once you become the head of product or direct level, any senior level you actually end up like working way longer than before. So could you, let me accept the time commitment also like overwhelmingly exciting a lot, but also excited bigger scope of responsibilities. What's the hardest part? What is the biggest challenge as the head of product right now? So the biggest challenge is, you know, always keeping your team motivated. Tell me more, how did you address that? The best way that I've like, you know, sort of like learned through experience, I would say, when I was, you know, in a position like my team is right now was to, you know, be transparent. Transparency in a company is I think really important when people have a clear idea of what the vision of the company is and where the company is going and how their leadership is viewing all the employees from the lowest level up to the highest level and how the company cares about its employees in terms of not just their, you know, professional or career development, also their personal development, what kind of environment you provide to them. It all adds up and builds that confidence and trust in your employees in the vision and direction that your company is going. And with that confidence and trust, they feel motivated. They feel motivated to work for you, to work for the company because they see that working would provide them with success and make them realize their dreams. If somebody knows, okay, they're working, but it's not going to help them achieve their dreams or help them, you know, succeed in life, they will become demotivated. So I think transparency in aligning your team around your vision and mission of the company and how you are achieving them and how that vision and mission of the company is helping them achieve their own personal goals is what matters to, you know, make them motivated. So that's what I try to do as well when I have my, you know, daily product team meetings. I try to make them understand the why around it, you know, why we are in here, why they are here, why they're doing what they're doing, you know, what we are trying to achieve as a company, you know, as a product team and as individuals and always encourage them to speak up, you know, if they have any issues, any problems they're going through, you know, even if there are personal issues. Because at the end of the day, you know, we are people, we are humans, we live in a society. And if we cannot understand each other's personal issues and problems and help them out when they need, you know, that's also, you know, a big demotivator for the team. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, I like you brought up something most people don't talk about regarding personal issues, different things. I think in the past, before the pandemic, people always tried to be professional in the work setting. They think, oh, I show you me have personal issues as like weakness in the workplace. I'm glad you brought up this concept talking about or understanding as people's personal issues as well. So how is that played out? Do you think people felt embarrassed or they felt cared about at work when they brought up those personal issues? It's an important part of being a product manager, empathy. So if we don't have empathy and we don't feel and care about one another, how can we be good product managers? You know, we have to feel the pain of our customers, right, when we're building products for them. So I think it's only natural for product managers and how the product especially to be empathetic and caring towards their employees. So employees, yes, it takes, you know, it's not natural for some people to talk about their personal issues. Some feel embarrassed, some feel, you know, uncomfortable. They probably have not done that before in a professional setting. But, you know, if your leadership is supportive and caring, even if we don't directly say to them that, okay, you know, share with us your personal problems and they might feel obligated, it's not that, it's saved in a very subtle and, you know, a non-verbal way that how you communicate with your team that they feel the confidence to talk to you about anything. So that's more important. I encourage them always to, you know, talk about anything. We, you know, towards our end of our meetings, we usually have a small, you know, five, six minutes where, you know, it's like we just don't talk about work and we just talk about anything anybody wants to bring up. You know, it could be, you know, a hobby they want to talk about, something interested they read about, something, you know, they went on vacation, they want to share a picture, something like that. Something to, you know, do kind of like team bonding and team, you know, team building. So I think that goes a long way to building that confidence with your leadership where, you know, team will just come up and talk to you about anything. So it's, you know, a little bit about that. Not just explicitly saying, okay, you know, if you have any problems, you know, personal problems, you need to talk to me. No. So. True. Yeah. Now, right now I manage my own team as well. And I have a team of full-time employees right now. Now I, each single day, I feel I'm stepping into new challenges. Now as your team gets bigger, it's more thinking about how would you do leadership, trust and motivation. I do like your idea and giving them opportunities to form any casual team bonding and also share when they feel like they need to share as well. This is great. That's the true sign of leadership. That's regrowing your personal skills in different dimension. As soon as you become head of product, this is awesome. Awesome. Cool. And Kashif, let me ask you this question. So what's the most important shift that pushes you to the next level? For example, I don't know, mindset shift, different shift because you actually have changed a lot. Like in the past few months, actually into a new position, what do you think the most important shift that push you to the next level? Shifts would be different in different people's lives because everybody has different circumstances. They're coming from different backgrounds. They're in different fields, different domains. For me, like I mentioned, it was getting laid off. That pushed me to go for a mindset change, self-reflection. So I think it's to achieve something different, something which is radically different from let's say what you have been doing and it requires a sort of like a paradigm shift. So equally, you will have to do a paradigm shift in your mindset. So I think that the most people that can relate to this is you would need definitely a big mindset shift and that will come from self-reflection, thinking about where you are and where you want to go and then making a strategic plan how you want to get there. So I think that's the number one thing in my mind that's always pushed me to make dramatic, drastic changes like what I've managed to achieve through PMA or the last, I would say, four or five months. So are you saying that your mindset shift was triggered by being laid off and all of a sudden I need to rethink about my life, my career, now they close the door for me? What do I do next? Absolutely. Yeah, it's absolutely because I was working in that field, telecom field for more than 20 years. I was in my comfort zone. So it's when you think about getting out of your comfort zone and thinking out of the box to make drastic shifts to achieve success, which you probably at that moment when you haven't been pushed, you don't even think about it because you're in a routine. You're in a day-to-day routine. You don't think about it unless it really hits you and hits you hard. And for me, it was getting laid off. Yeah, I had a moment myself. Very funny, I lived in Boston for 11 years throughout my entire journey when I just moved to US which is the only place I lived was in Boston. Every winter I was like, I want to live in Boston. This is crazy. The winter lasts for six months. Every single year in the winter I want to live every summer. Oh, it's summer. Maybe we wait until the beautiful summer is over. And then I was literally dragging my foot throughout the entire time. And then very similar to you. And then the beginning of the pandemic, when the pandemic hit, all of a sudden I asked myself, oh, I have been in the time in Verizon for four years. To me, it feels really long but I was just like in my comfort zone. And then I asked myself, well, you know what, at the beginning of the pandemic, we predict the pandemic will last for two years, right? So that means I will all be in Verizon doing the same job for six years. When I pictured that, I was like, no, this was a trigger to me, actually. I need to get out now. I can't wait for another two years. This is way too long. And that this had happened, I just was able to land three direct-to-product offers at the time. Very similar to your journey as well. Lots of people, you're ready, you're prepared. Nobody kicked you until, yeah. You just, you did not push, right? Yeah, so that was pushed for me. Not seeing yourself in the same position for, let's say, six, seven years might be a push for some people. Doing the same thing that they cannot imagine themselves doing the same thing for six, seven years, that could be a push for them. So it's all about important thing is you realize that you need a change and you then start thinking about how to make that happen. Do some planning and do some research. Whatever you decide on doing, you just stick to it, you know? Perseverance, consistency. Yeah, it will turn out, and I believe you became a head of product within two months, right? It's very fun, your job hunting journey. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, for me at that time, it was looking at like eternity. It's two months, I haven't found anything yet. Oh my. But yeah, looking, looking, you know, hearing from a lot of friends right now who are going through very similar situations and some of them, you know, looking for jobs for more than six months now. So really tough job market right now. Really challenging. Not only to find jobs and hunt and, you know, for the kind of jobs that you really wanna work for companies, the worst part right now is there's a disconnect between, you know, employers and people searching for jobs because people searching for jobs are coming from a mindset, okay, you know, inflation has gone up, you know, we should be getting higher pays and now companies are doing the opposite, you know, offering less pay than they were last year because, you know, there's just so many people in the market, you know, so it's getting tough for people, you know, and programs like PMA, I think, are really absolutely necessary in these hard times for people to not only help them get upscaled, you know, helping them showcase their achievements and their talent, but also I think most importantly to give them confidence and, you know, not lose their mind. Yeah, exactly, they have what it takes, it's more about the strategies, preparation and communities and confidence and these forces, different things again. Absolutely. So Kashif, what specific advice do you have for people who either break into product management or trying to become a head of product like you? You know, number one recommendation that I give to, you know, aspiring product managers or, you know, product managers who have just started their journey on this, you know, really amazing, exciting field of product management is to always stay hungry, always keep learning and focus on their development. You know, sometimes when you are in your comfort zone, again, you know, that word comfort zone and when you're, you know, in doing your job and in the routine, you ignore your development efforts that you need to do and towards learning, improving your outlook of market, your knowledge, so that's important. Keep, to keep growing is important and that can come in many different ways. You know, just talking to your mentors, you know, joining a certificate program like PMA, doing short courses on, you know, LinkedIn and, you know, other sites. So just realizing and focusing on your growth and development is important so that you can always keep learning and that learning will help you to keep growing and excelling in your career and that's absolutely necessary if you want to target senior level positions like director of product management or head of product management, widening your horizons, you know, gaining that knowledge that you need is absolutely critical. So the number one advice, keep growing yourself, don't limit yourself, keep an open mind, think out of the box, keep dreaming and keep striving to achieve your dream. Awesome. I love this. Keep driving and achieving your dream and people just need to push a little harder. Lots of people actually give up or too early, just feel like I'm happy I can enter job. In reality, they can achieve way more, just need to continuously have a growth mindset to learn and grow together. It's a fun journey. Awesome. Great, cool. Kashif, thank you so much for sharing with us today. If anybody have any question about her shift, feel free to reach out to him as I assume through LinkedIn, right? Yes, that would be the best way to reach out to me. Awesome. Great, cool. And his team is still hiring. It'd be interesting looking for jobs that he's growing. His team continuously growing his team. Yeah, of course. You guys should reach out as well. So excited to have you to join us today on our channel and also our podcast, for the Insider podcast series. Thank you so much for joining us. Anybody, if you find this episode very insightful and inspiring, make sure to like and share this video with any aspiring product manager or senior product manager or someone wants to see me on challenges in terms of recently laid off as well. Awesome. So this is Dr. Nia Sidi from PM X-Seritor Diome. See you in my next episode right here. Bye, guys.