 Welcome to Pookie Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pookie Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is, how can you be a good friend to someone who is suicidal? And I'm in conversation with Joe Heyman, who is the managing director at the Holocaust Education Trust. But for the context of this conversation, Joe is here as my friend. My name is Joe Heyman and I've worked in charity and youth sector my whole career. And you and I met when I was cheek and sick at the PSHE Association. We're talking today because you're my friend and the question is around how to be a good friend to someone who is suicidal. And I'm actually quite feeling all the feelings about this conversation. I think you wanted to start off by talking about yourself not being an expert and kind of putting this into a bit of context, didn't you? I did, yeah, just because I think it's important. I was glad when you asked to have the conversation and I think it's a, if challenging, important thing to be able to talk about. But when talking about it, I want to say three things. I'm not an expert and certainly as we, as we talk will, I think it will come out that I was just a lot of the time making it up as I was going along. And I think that's alright, but I think it's important to be open about that. I think being open is really important. That's the second thing I wanted. I just want to be as honest as I can be, including about making mistakes and not knowing the right thing to do. And my own fallibilities and yeah, like all of the mistakes I would have made along the way. And then the third thing is I'm very happy to talk about things that I've done and hopefully that might be useful in some way for someone. But it's the person who's feeling suicidal who's doing the hard work just to survive each day. Being good friends is an important thing, but the hard work's being done by the person who's just struggling to make it through the day. Why do you think I asked you to talk to me about this rather than, you know, there's loads of people in my network who would be, you know, an expert if you like in this, but I asked you. Well, maybe because you're looking for something slightly different and you've got lots of people who've got kind of clinical expertise and you've got loads of clinical expertise yourself as well. Yeah, I guess there's a role for the other people in people's lives as well, not who are not the professionals who are not people who are actually going to go through the very sort of challenging and important clinical work that needs to be done. But can help and support the person who's going through that process, maybe be the people who help get the person who's struggling to the door of the therapist's office or the, you know, the support service or whatever it might be and support them on the journey, and the support them when they're wobbling. And I think that's a really, really important role if even if it's not like the critical role which is the person who's got years and years and years of experience which I would never claim to have or be able to replicate or anything like that at all. And I suspect as well that there's a bit of the professional and the kind of loving and supportive have to go hand in hand for there to be a way through for someone who is, you know, at that stage, at stage where they're considering taking their own life, thinking about taking their own life. I kind of feel like the clinical support is how you survive, but it's not why you survive. And I suspect, you know, others can say better than me because I haven't been in that situation but part of the reason why you survive is not because of a clinical process that you work through. The clinical process is one you work through in order to survive in order to love and be loved and all the things that make life worth living. But you can probably answer that question better than. Why did I ask you. I, there's lots of different reasons. One, I think is a kind of a personal one that this is obviously, you know, it will be a difficult conversation. And there's a lot that's gone on and I don't understand it from anyone's point of view except for mine and even that's quite muddled because I spent a lot of that time quite associated and so there's a kind of and I'm interested to talk to you specifically about it because you were there in a way that I wasn't. But in terms of why I want my network to hear from you is because I think actually what you've identified in terms of, you know, perhaps not knowing what always to do and sometimes getting it wrong and kind of muddling through. That's exactly what I'd hope to empower some other people to do. I think people are really afraid of stepping up and being a friend when someone's suicidal and I think it's okay to not know all the answers before you give it a try, I guess, and that's what I think. Yeah, I think it's important that people hear that. Yeah, I guess, I guess you probably like from my point of view anyway you probably want to encourage people not to back away and to kind of go forward. Also, you probably want you probably then want to advise them to get some advice on how to do it the right way. So far as, so far as it's possible. And, you know, I'm not sure there are any necessarily sort of any voice any right wrong answers but there's probably some things you probably shouldn't do with people who are suicidal. I think, like, I guess the attraction to me of doing something like this is to encourage people at least just not to back away and not to be too scared. And also that there are ways in which you can get help and support to be the person who's given the help and support as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really important thing to look at the, I think starting though with that kind of, I always teach that if someone is distressed and really I'm thinking about children and young people but you know where we see distress that the kind of the bravest and most important thing to do is to run towards it and that's exactly what you're describing but it's something that when it comes to suicide people feel really uncomfortable doing and the reason that you stood out as a friend is because you didn't run away and rather you did run towards that distress even though actually the point at which that started we weren't close friends like we came close friends through that process but we weren't and I wonder why you know and it's something we've explored before but why was it that you helped, why did you step forward? I had hundreds of people in my life and very few of them did offer help actually in a meaningful way at that time but you did. You haven't, you got straight in with like the big questions haven't you? Yeah. There's no warming me up or anything straight in there. I don't know, well I mean I care about people, I care about you and I mean you're right but we didn't know each other particularly well at the stage where it became clear that you were in a lot of pain and things were very difficult but like it was horrible to see you in that level of distress and I think I felt like I could be useful and I'm not sure that when we were kind of having the initial conversations you remember like when we were in Hatfield and Wellingott and Sissy around that time. Like I'm not sure I would have envisaged quite how long and challenging a process it would have been but I don't know I saw you in distress and even in sort of initial conversations we had about that it seemed to be that talking to me was useful in some way and you know you want to be, you want to be useful. I don't care about you and like I know situation you know you got a family and I could only imagine how distressing that whole situation must have been and I think that must have been like put a huge strain on obviously put a huge strain on you put a huge strain on the family and kind of feel like if I can play some small part then I think that will be useful things to do I guess I like to be useful. I like to feel like I'm doing something positive. And like, there's no entirely unselfish data is there. And like, I, I'm sure I would have felt worse if I wasn't doing anything. And if I was aware that you were in distress that someone's in distress and I could have helped and I didn't. And I also think on a very, yeah, like on a very personal level. There's times in the past where I haven't been able to to help and seen people I really care about suffer and not being able not being able to do something. And that's something I've carried with me for a long time. So when I see someone who who is also what I'm looking for, who's like willing to let me in willing to take some support. And for whom I can be useful. All right, do my best. Well, and you just mentioned about well in which I guess was a bit of a turning point in terms of my descent into. Oh wow. That was a yeah, what's your memory of well and so well and was a work trip wasn't it. Yeah, so we're having an old old team sort of away away night so we, I think we went up after work. Had the night at dinner together and And then we were doing, you know, strategy, whatever the next day. And I don't know. Yeah, I don't know exactly where I would like I think I don't keep a diary like I don't know exactly where that fits into everything else that was happening but I think that was one of the initial times where I felt that I got the sense that you were in extreme distress. And we sat on the bench by the station for quite some time and I hope you don't mind me sort of mentioning this if you do then we can cut it out later so it's fine. But I think we were all having dinner together that night and the idea of having dinner together was something that was distressing. But But I mean I already knew that you struggled around food, but this it was clear that it was it was more than that. And But this was before the kind of the world had really picked up on that I was struggling with my eating disorder again I think it was hidden from me and I don't know. Well, it might have been hidden from you but it wasn't hidden from me that you did not want to have dinner with forcing people that night. And then I get that but that I mean it was more than that and you were obviously very distressed. And I think you talked earlier on about being having limited memory of that time because of dissociation and everything else. And it was that was one of the times where I wasn't sure I was always talking to you before I felt again hope you don't mind me saying customer if we can but like sometimes I was talking to your demons as opposed to talking to you. Yeah. And yeah, I was I was worried. And there was a kind of, there was a professional job that had to be done. And you remember that we, you know, we did a lot of stuff about risk assessment and all of that. I think it was like we did the HR. But just like human to human. I was really worried about you. And I think in hindsight I was right to be worried. Yeah, my memory of well and is was and this is one of those where it's like, is this an actual memory or if I've lost it in my head it was like something from a film and there was some kind of epic storm. And the rain and talked but I think that was just my imagination. There was a there was a storm. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I don't think that we sat in the rain and and sorts that I did, or at least I don't remember that. What I remember is that we traveled up. And you didn't want to go to this place that we were. We were sort of staying together. You're worried about having dinner together dinner with the group. And as we talked, you opened up a bit more about what was kind of what was going on with you. And then that evening, while some of our colleagues sort of enjoyed the social element of it. And I think a couple of them did run out into the storm and enjoyed it. You were quite, you were separate from the group. You didn't want to have dinner with people you were there. But you weren't there as well. You were present. But not like you were physically there but not present, I think. And it wasn't just me supporting you like other colleagues were really good around that time as well. But certainly that was the time where I thought, okay, she's got a lot going on that she's working through. I think this we had our colleague Nick, who is a trained Samaritan. And I remember you encouraged me to talk to him, actually didn't you as well. Yeah, I did. And I mean partially. And I would talk more about that. Partially that's because, you know, he's an incredible person and amazing and I would trust him with anything. You know, he's one of the good guys. But partially there were 13 other people there and I was chief executive and I had other responsibilities to manage as well. And I think that's maybe that's one of the things will come on. So not as like, I think we're talking about friendship rather than work. But I think the sort of managing someone who's in a sort of desperate position while also fulfilling all of one's other responsibilities is a, is a challenge to be sure. But yeah, and I everyone, everyone wanted to be supportive and everyone could see that you were in, see that you're in distress. And I think you're more receptive to some people than to others and that's not disrespect anyone else is just like, I guess he felt most comfortable talking to him at that moment. And that's still true now I think isn't it I, yeah, I don't open up to lots of people. And we talked about this, I was talking to you before about how I've now opened up to my friend Arthur and. Yeah, I'm quite open and honest about my kind of day to day struggles in terms of how I'm feeling and what's going on with my mental health but there's not many people that I talked to about the kind of stuff that underpins it in the past and those things are quite hard. Yeah, so how did you like how you know through this one of things I I'm kind of interested about I guess is thinking about it from your point of view and how did you look after you and how did it kind of feel for you and that sort of thing I guess. Well, I mean we talked about this before. So like after after you suggested this idea that I've been in touch about 10 times saying, I want to say this or I want to say that or is what they're thinking about. Yeah, it's really like it's, it's really really hot. And this is one of the bits I don't think I, I got right was sort of managing, managing myself and I kind of think I'm, I'm someone who I sort of pick up a challenge and and then just sort of charge along with it without necessarily always thinking about whether I'm doing the best way or whatever I just I just like head down sort of slightly blinkered tunnel vision. And I mean I think I think I think if it's alright to be blunt in my head it was like, okay we got someone who's his life is at risk here and therefore if I can play a useful role in that, like, I'm going to, I'm going to do that. And kind of whatever it, whatever it takes. You did though, didn't you? I mean just from a practical point of view. I've been trying to think about this like you were just there like physically present either in person or on the phone like whenever I asked you to be there you somehow made that happen and you were running. You know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I might have kind of like that can't actually have been true, right, because I've got lots going on in in my life and I'm glad that you felt like that. And I can't, I can't remember and I can't remember a time where I was like, I can't speak to you because I'm too busy but you know there would have been stuff going on in my life working professional personal whatever else. So, you know, I'm glad I, I'm glad I created that that feeling. And I think that that's, I think just taking a step back, I think, like having the trust and the belief that someone is not going to walk is not walking away from you is kind of in spirit all the time. I think probably makes you more as like sympathetic if there had been times which there must have been where I wasn't available. But no, I mean, like, I think just before sort of going on to the practicalities of it. So I got a fly buzzing around me. Like, I think lots of people when they hear about anything about mental health, or they hear about someone who's had a bereavement or going through a painful time, they feel uncomfortable. And I, I'm a huge believer in people like I like people. I think people are generally good, but they can get scared. And I think, I think grief scares people. I think pain scares people. You know, mental health, anything to do with mental health scares people. And they don't want to say the wrong thing. And, and maybe like it touches on something that's going on with inside of them and so people can kind of go can either sort of retreat or just not come forward in the way that they, they could. And I'm sure that sometimes they regressed it as well when they don't, but then they don't know what to do and maybe think that they might make it worse if they came forward. But I mean, I think there are also many amongst us who will not do that, and will come forward. And I think that is an amazing thing that I've seen for a lot of people who've had distressing things happen in their life is that sometimes the people who they thought and expected would be there aren't always there, or I'm always there in like the same, that same level, but other people do step forward. And they fought, they fought new and rich and important relationships as a result of that. And I think probably the biggest thing that I've done in supporting you is not an individual occasion but creating that feeling that, alright, whatever you're going to say, I'm not backing away from you. I'm not scared. I'm not judging. And therefore, yeah, like there must, there must have been times that I wasn't available, like this thing went on, I don't even know how long it went on for, it went on for months, months, yeah, like I don't know, like a long time. And yeah, and I think, but I think you, I helped build a sense of confidence in you that I wasn't going to judge you, I wasn't going to back away from you, I wasn't like put off by what you were saying. And let's be honest, like this is dark stuff when you're talking about suicide, but I think some people are more capable, more comfortable than others in those circumstances and that's fine, but I think you felt comfortable. So, so now you remember that I was always there, but like, if we think about that can't be true. But I think that like the mistake, the mistake that I made was like, okay, so there's someone whose life is at risk. She's got a husband, she's got kids. Like, she's got a family, she's got a huge amount to contribute, and it is, and it is a life. And I do think that life is the most precious thing in the, in the world. And so, so like, then I'm just in full on, like, okay, whatever it takes, whatever I can do, but that doesn't, that doesn't mean you should negate your own well being. And I think, I think that is something probably that I did, if I'm honest with myself and we've talked about this, I think there's been some, like, getting over it, just from my point of view, just kind of like, healing from that because it was like, it was really hot. And as I said at the start, it's the person who's going through, you know, thinking about ending their own life, they're the one who's really, really struggling, but it's not easy to be on the end of the end of the phone. And I think just thinking back to that kind of first time in it, enlisting Nick, like one of the things I did much, one of the things which would have been smart for me to do would have been to try to enlist other people. And I think there were times where there was a sense that there's a very, very small number of people to whom you felt you could talk, and that was an extraordinary amount of pressure on those people. And actually that's based on the kind of fallacy because as you're seeing now, everyone to whom you talk about what's happened in the circumstances that you're in, like, the network that you've got, every time you tag me in and on the tweet about anything, you get all these amazing messages of love coming through from all these people, some of whom you know, some of whom you've never met, right? Yeah. And it's great. How many followers have you got on Twitter now? 30,000 maybe. That's it. Right. So, so there's a lot of good people out there. There's a lot of people who want to hear what you have to say, who, like, appreciate your, your way, which is about talking about really challenging issues and talking about the clinical side and like the professional side. But I don't think you shy away from talking about your own experience either. I don't know. But that is down to you again. So, it is. Well, well, like, it's, it's down to you, right? Like, I can, I can advise and support and encourage and good job and all the rest of it. Like, you're the one who, hey, you've had the experience. I haven't. And be like, it's very easy to sit here and say, oh, Pookie, you should do this or that or whatever. Like, if you're putting something out to 30,000 people, that's nerve wracking. If you're writing a book, that's nerve wracking. If you're doing a video or podcast or whatever, like, it's nerve wracking. And so, like, I can help and encourage, but I think you should take, you should take pride in what you've, what you've done, I think. But that like, but sorry. No, I was just going to say, I mean, I just, I guess in terms of context, because a lot of people who would be listening to this or watching this would only know the me that I present now. Of course, if we go back a few years to when we first got to know each other and when this all kind of happened at that point in my life, although I've done a PhD in mental health and worked in the field. I never really talked about my living experience and I wasn't even acknowledging it in myself. So the point at which you first picked up that things were really desperate. I mean, I remember vividly around that time, going and delivering a talk to a room of 300 psychiatrists about the latest interventions in eating disorders. And they were interested in what I had to say and they asked me to stay for lunch and I couldn't do that. I just couldn't be around people eating. And that was because the anorexia was taking grip again and I was, it sounds so stupid now because it must have been so obvious if only I'd have looked but I was in complete denial about all of it and I never talked about any of it to anyone. And so mental health was this thing I cared about it was a part of my past but I didn't talk about my experience and you challenged me about that. And that's it. I think we have different memories of this time but in my, in my narrative, it was a challenge from you, which was, you know, you have the potential to be a role model here and you can change the conversation. You are authentic. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think I did, I think I did say that to you. Both from a kind of like a moral point of view but also quite cynical point of view as well like just on the like on the cynical thing. I think, and you have since demonstrated that there is a big sort of space gap in the market, how do you want to say it for people who are able to address issues in relation to mental health but do it in a relatable way like not a dry clinical kind of way but in a human way. And I think people like people are receptive to that. And that's obviously working for you and I know that you now get asked to go around the country. I think you were saying that you, you also do stuff abroad as well like people are interested in what you have to say. So, like, cynically from like a commercial point of view. You know, I think I was right about that. I think from a moral point of view, it wasn't just that I was encouraging you to live more authentically. I thought, I thought that you were doing the wrong thing, actually. I did. And I think I've said that to you before. I thought that you were, you were not following your own advice. And if you, if one doesn't follow one's own advice, then I don't think I think if one is giving it one should at least say, and just to say, I find this piece of advice very hard to very hard to follow myself. And I think I didn't think that that was, I didn't think that that was right. And I didn't think it was right for you. But also, I was conscious even then that you have a following and amongst that following will be people who are grappling with exactly the issues you're grappling with. And like, one of the challenges I think I sort of posed to you is like, there might be a young woman who's 15 or 16 who is following you reading yourself, watching your podcast, watching your film videos on YouTube, whatever, and seeing someone who's like this perfect person who's like just do it like just giving all of this advice, like it's the easiest thing in the world to do and I know that you never, you never did that I'm just like characterizing for effect. I think there's far greater power and far greater ability to help and support if people know the truth and the truth is that you're grappling with that and it's really weird that you would with weird for me to hear you saying that you weren't open with it because it seems to me quite obvious from when I met you that there was a reason that you were interested in these issues and it came from a personal place and like I couldn't go deeper into that at that stage but that that was kind of that was fairly obvious to me but like I hope you don't mind me saying that I think I've said that to you before like I didn't think it was the right thing to be doing but like I entirely understand that but you know I was saying before it's easy for me to sit there and say you shouldn't do this it's very difficult it's very difficult to tell one person let alone to tell hundreds to tell thousands like to tell them to tell the world and you know you have got a big platform and that's really difficult so I admire you for having taken that step and being more open and I think I think that that is working for you and I think if I'd been smart and I probably would have encouraged you to talk a bit more share share with a few more people earlier on because I ended up with a lot on my shoulders and that was really really hard and I think what this whole episode has proven you know we're talking back to events that happened five years years ago now what this event has proven both with the people who you've talked to like in detail and I had hearts to heart with and whatever else and in your wider following people have been amazing amazing and receptive and it's not everyone but there were loads and loads of good people out there and let's say I huge believer in people and and every time you put something out you get loads and loads of love back and I think so that that's definitely something that I should have done and I definitely shouldn't have kind of presumed in a very slightly sort of arrogant way that I was the only one who would be able to to help because because of not I think just yeah and so just on that thing about becoming more honest just I think it's important to touch on it and then we'll move back a step but it was hard because of course at the time that we met then I had I was only just moving into actually working in in mental health and making that my career so you know you scoop me up when I've been working in social media and I came on I was working with you and I was finding my own way and very much a big question mark about could I make this thing that was my passion and have been the focus of my studies could I turn it into my livelihood and I was having good, you know there was there was kind of good early signs but of course it was even just a few years ago there was a lot less interest and there weren't role models in the you know there wasn't there wasn't someone I don't think at the time there was someone that you could point to who could was doing what we may you know now maybe I'm doing now if that makes sense and I was terrified that because I was a mess I was a real mess and and I was terrified that you know I literally wrote the books on self harm and eating disorders and yet here I am like bleeding and starving and what kind of a you know how would that harm my credibility and I remember really grappling with that and really feeling deeply ashamed of where I was and feeling I should be able to manage this and therefore feeling I should hide and pretend to be now that all seems yeah there's a lot to unpick that but anyway that was that was the reluctance I guess I felt I should be able to manage yeah and like when I get that and I suspect there's lots of people whether they're in the field on mental health or not whether they're a parent or like a working or other than they they feel like they should be able to manage and they want to be able to manage and that they want to maintain a veneer for the for the world's because that's what the world's generally kind of looking for and it's it's hard to to lower your guard and I think particularly in the field that you're in but I did feel strongly about that and you know we talked we talked a lot over the years about sort of you know the like that West Wing story so how does it go there's a guy there's a guy in a hole and people sort of throw down notes to him and like throw a bit of food down to him or whatever else and he's still stuck in the hole and then yeah his friend jumps in and says and the guy says now there's two of us in the hole and the other guy says well I've been down here before and I know the way out and I think the reason I think that's important is that like you you can't I don't feel you can authentically meet people who are struggling while not being honest about your own struggles like that doesn't feel authentic right true and I think I think the challenge that you sort of got to was that you you were a role model you are a role model but you're also grappling with the stuff at the at the same at the same time and that's a really really difficult place to be but I do think there is huge power in being able to say I've been there or I am still there or I'm a little further down the road than you are and let's let's walk down together and I think that there is I don't know there's it's a lot about richness in relationships I think and I just I can't help thinking that your relationships with people will be richer will have been rich richer over the last five years as a result of having talked more openly about your experience than being and again I'm just characterising for a fence but like was perfect you know written all these books you know incredibly successful all the rest of that but like visit your view is so different than my own no no no no no like I'm not saying you're perfect what I'm saying is I'm not saying you have it I'm saying you presented us and that presentation creates a gap between you and whoever you're presenting to and the very act of presenting is different from an authentic relationship and I think I think it's really incredibly difficult for you but like whether or not you liked it or whether or not you feel like you're a role model or felt like you're a role model five years ago you know in the office we had younger women who were you know eight or nine years younger than you were who would have looked to you whether you like it or not and that's something that I like that I had to think about and think about how to manage you got a following you know you got family like all kinds of people will look to you whether you whether you like it or not and I think I think one of the great sort of acts of courage that you've shown is to drop that veneer to be honest to be honest about the struggle that you have that you've had and so you know the issues you're still dealing with to do this and to be able to put that out into the world and that will give huge confidence and like a feeling to people who who are out there and feel like they're on their own and who who's having these experiences and don't see them reflected anywhere else they'll see someone who is who has been through those feelings who is feeling those things that they're feeling who knows what it's like who's been in the hole and I would argue that you're ten times the role model that you were five years ago as a result thank you I find that hard I find that you know imposter syndrome but did you did you were you always confident it was going to work out okay no no I wasn't because I think because you weren't always there like I don't know I didn't like for the like for the audience I don't know how people how familiar people are with dissociation it's not something I'm particularly familiar with or was particularly familiar with but there are times where I was talking to you and I was like I don't know who I'm talking to but it's not it's not you or it's at least not the you that I've got to know over the last six months or a year or whatever you know have a long long at once and I think like really interesting philosophical question like who are like who are we because it was it was you talking there's words were coming out of your mouth the feelings that you were expressing were like you were came from within you like they didn't I didn't feed them to you like they came from within you but it was like talking to I don't know like almost like you've been occupied by you see this is why I say like I'm gonna get I'm gonna get things wrong but it's like it was like talking to your demons and there were times where it's almost like like shouting pookie if you're in there you know say something that suggests to me that you are still in there but like like some of the times when I've talked to you I've talked to you and like it's 100% you some of the times when I talk to you it's 95% you and 5% demons just occasionally sort of come through and sometimes when I'm talking to you and it was like 95% demons with difficulty but like I think just keep trying to talk to you if that makes sense because I think you the very fact that you pick up you've picked up the phone to suggest that they're like the you the bit of you that wants to survive that wants to be a parent that wants to be this true role model that wants to be a wife be a mom you know be a family member be a friend all of that kind of stuff is still in there because because you knew what you were going to get with me every time you pick up the phone right yeah I'm not going to be like oh yeah it doesn't matter you know you do what you want to do like you knew what my agenda was my agenda was your a parent and a wife and a family member and a friend and and you've got huge amounts of contributions to the world and life is incredibly precious and it is a gift and and when you pick up the phone to me I'm going to be doing everything I can to to save your life or to play my part in saving your life so that 5% of you is still in there and even at 5% I think is really powerful and like there were things there were always things that I knew I could talk to and again this is where I don't know whether I was doing the right thing or not but you know you seem to have found it useful so I'm alive so yeah but you're alive you're alive because ultimately you're alive because you chose to live and everyone that loads of people helped but you you made that choice right and so I'm glad to have played my part but you said you saved your own life you didn't so I forgot what the question was now well so I was trying to talk to you like the you rather than the demons and like yeah so there were there were things that I did to try to speak to you which I'm not sure would find their way into a mental health textbook and I think the thing that I would encourage anyone who's listening or watching this is like if I'm trying to encourage you not to back off from people who aren't doing well but I'm not trying to say that the way that I did it was the right way but I think I just tried to talk to you like the 5% of you which was the like the true you and I talked to you about your family and I talked to you about being a role model and I think like I think I was right like and I think it has been born out in the 5 years since that you have been able to carve this role for yourself and this is this is what we talked about like like 2 o'clock in the morning like in 2015 or whenever it was is like you can you can get through tonight you can get help and support you can survive you can rebuild you can become this person who is a successful parent a successful family member a successful friend I mean successful is not a good word but yeah a good parent family member person but also that you can be a role model and that one day young people and young women in particular I would imagine will come to you and be where you were and you will be an inspiration to them and the support and you will help them on their journey and I think on some level that appeal to you like that vision of a life where it wasn't every day wasn't so gut wrenching and having a good and happy life and caring about the people around you and making a difference in the world like I just tried to keep just keep hitting on that and also when the demons talking we're talking telling them they're talking rubbish and like and challenging every single untruth there were quite a lot of them yeah there were a lot of them but like I mean I think that that's that's one of the that's one of the real challenges are when one's mental health isn't right is that to some degree the mind starts to turn in on itself and there are all kinds of like falsehoods that are really really like pernicious damaging and like and once an idea is planted it you know it works its way around and gets deeply deeply embedded but I think part of my job was to try to challenge some of those and then and then to try to get you to a point where you were getting the professional help you needed so again like I don't want to give the impression that I think that I am a therapist or mental health expert or anything like that at all so I don't I'm not sometimes it's about just keeping your company but sometimes it's about just kind of appealing you appealing to you to just keep going with the with the process and that's what you know that's what that's what you did but no like the I I was mentally prepared for you not surviving as mentally prepared as one can be and I mean surely like isn't there part of you then that just wanted to walk away I mean this was a friendship that you put so much like you invested a lot of your well everything into that and you weren't getting a lot back I mean why would you carry on with that because it's a life isn't it like it's it's like life is so precious and once it's gone it's gone you know like I mean you know that my best friend died a couple of years ago and he would have given anything to live anything like like like he'd give him all the money in the world like like there's nothing he would have wanted but to live and he's got like he had two kids as well like and the idea of you know them not having a father around you know this life is heartbreaking heartbreaking to see that and you know we've all known people who've died and who like died before their time and like it's a yeah like I say it's a life and I just like I said to you before I love people I think people are so special and so precious and look I mean I think it's not just your life you know the impact of you losing your life would have been very very damaging for a large number of people particularly people are kind of closest to you and I also believe that you could come through it and the fact that you you kept picking up the phone on some level showed me that there was a bit of you that that wanted to come through it and that it maybe sometimes it was 95% demons but it was it was never 100% and did I did I want to walk did I want to walk away yeah because sometimes because it was really hard and like you weren't easy and it's a fairly sort of thankless task and I remember it being a lot of that being during a particularly challenging time in my own life not anything like on the same scale like and that's you know that's hard but I go back to it's a life and you're a precious and special person and who we are five years later look at everything that you've done and I think you know definitely worth it and definitely the right thing to do and and I think you're just getting started and I think it can have a multiplier effect as well and I think this is this is what I ask of you like if like if you feel I've given anything to you what I ask of you is like use it now like you've got this amazing platform to to help and support and change people's lives and break cycles and to jump in a hole with people and walk with them and I don't mean like obviously I don't mean literally but I don't mean but I mean it may not be that you get you're in a position where you're supporting people one to one is why I mean like that might not be the path that you go down but through the acts of telling your story and you know there's lots of people who are in a similar boat or in a position like you were in five years or ten years old you know however long ago and I think that's that's an incredible opportunity that you've got and I feel really proud to have played a small part in helping that but like it's not for me to to tell you how to to live your life and like it might it might be that some say she decided I don't want to do anything in relation to mental health or whatever else that's fine but the other day you said to me that you were I think you said something like that you were feeling guilty or like that like all the stuff that I kind of that you'd asked me or whatever else and the one thing I don't want you to do is to waste your time feeling guilty or spend time sort of turned inwards like but I put you through hell like that that's the thing I when I I guess I never I never really necessarily stop and think about it very much because it was a really hard time and I was really you know really it was really difficult in lots of ways and there was you know feeling suicidal there was a lot of self harm anorexia was very challenging at various points of association even just that was was difficult remember when I was working at the PSHG association I had to have the address programmed into my phone because sometimes I would suffer with dissociation and doing that same walk that I did every single day I would become completely lost in an entirely familiar place because my brain was so you know and and you were there all the time and you were there and not only were you just there and helping to keep me safe but you like ran towards that distress in like a really really big way like for me a kind of particular memories as of crying and crying and crying in the British library with you when I finally I think I've been to see Matt my therapist and I had kind of I finally I don't know something had shifted and I began to really talk about and connect with some feelings about some old trauma and instead of just trying to comfort me or make me feel better you actually did what I really needed at that time which was to make a really safe space for me to explore it further and let it hurt more and I don't know. But that can't I mean you know we were sat in a busy place and but you did that kind of thing a lot you sat with me when I would eat when I hadn't eaten for a long time and that was really hard and you would you know I can't look at a McFlurry without thinking of you and crying you know it wasn't fun times was it. No but like this I mean the thing is is fun times now and I mean I think that's the that's the point right that you're you're on a particular particularly dark point but five years on you know you're you're doing really well like the families doing well you're showing more and more leadership to more and more people. And no I mean like it's an investment like it was it was horrible. Like it was it was horrible it was horrible for you. It was still horrible for me though obviously I like a hundred times less but I didn't like it is exhausting like I say kind of thankless task. You like spends I spent a lot of time on the phone and then like the next day. Like if I got somewhere and it's like one step forward 18 steps back and like. But. Like it's it's worth it right it's worth it for your family your friends all of that all of that kind of stuff but also to be a role model to make a difference in the world. And I think. Like there's been there's been a bit of kind of recovery from for me and kind of getting myself back to being in a position where you know maybe I'll be able to support someone else in a similar way not again like not in a clinical way and that's not for me to do and also I wouldn't want to support anyone again where. I was sort of thinking well I'm one of only one or two people ever can do it I don't think that's healthy or the right way to go but to play my part. You know I I think I needed a little break afterwards and you know we talked about it and I think we probably had a bit of a break from one another. And obviously that doesn't mean I'm not on the end of the phone or you know don't care about your whatever else but you know it's just a difficult kind of experience. But I just think. Guys you know so so precious and. And there's so much good to be to be done with that and you know and I. I think of Andy you know my friends passed away and you know what he would have given for life and think about the people who. You know like who's for whom like that pain has just been too overwhelming it's been too much and you know and you can't be in a position to help. I think you were just you were just enough there. That. You know that I could be one part of helping you to turn that corner. But but I think. You did it and it's very nice the way you sort of the way you talk about us but but you did it because at the end of the day like. I didn't have that churn inside me I didn't have that pain but don't have those demons like. You you had to you had to live with that and it was terrible like there were times where just beating was terrifying and extraordinary excruciatingly painful for you. And I think you should be really proud to survive that and I think like you did that I think because of your family and because of the people you can help and support and that was an extraordinary act of love on your part. So I think you should feel good about that. Thank you. You know I talk about you all the time like this is one of the other reasons I wanted to ask you to come and talk about this because I. I think it is really important that people understand that there is a lot that they can do to help and that there is a really important role there for friendship and also I do talk about you as a boss as well you were a really brilliant boss at that time. Yeah well thanks I mean like I don't know whether it was or was or whether I was doing to like doing too much and like I get I get nervous about you sort of talking about what I like talking about me the whole time because I like because I genuinely don't know what would I do what I was doing was the right thing or or not. I mean this this story does have a does have a happy ending so that's yeah that's that's good. I don't know whether it was the right thing or not like and I think the textbook would almost certainly say that you should detach the professional support from the personal support and all that kind of stuff but sometimes. Like like I kind of feel like if I saw someone's house on fire and there was someone stuck in the house I'd want to go into the house and I wouldn't really think too much about. What the sort of guy like what the guidelines were and what the sort of professional boundaries are and all that kind of stuff I think. I think we human beings first I guess is what I would like to say and I would whatever I do sort of professionally in my life I don't want to lose my humanity. And I would rather be a decent human being than be like a detached professional. And that seems to sort of work through my career but I'm sure that there's plenty of people who would say that that's not the right way to go and who would watch this conversation I think. I think he did it did that quite right. But and I know that I didn't do it right and I know lots of mistakes I made along the way and I know that there were times where I got frustrated and irritated and my feelings took over which was which was wrong. But I'm proud that I didn't back away and I think that that's this like that's the single biggest thing that I want anyone who is listening or watching or thinking about it just to say it's like even if you can't get the words right even if you don't know how to do it. Just saying like I don't know what the right thing to do is yeah but I'm I'm here and I I'm I'm not scared of what you're saying I'm not judging you for what you're saying I am with you. I think that opens up all kinds of different different avenues for strong relationship for people to feel like they're loved. And that's not that's that's not a whole of it like professional clinical support is crucial but just that love that love might be a bit of a turning point to get someone to go to therapy or to go to like one of the you know one of the like that one of the you know one of the like that sense of that we took you to at that stage. Yeah, it was just like an amazing place and they do amazing things and like I've supported people to go there a couple of times and I think that's fantastic place. And they do the hard work, but just getting someone to the front door like you can. I think it's not unreasonable that friends and family members couldn't couldn't help people who are really struggling just to get to the front door. Yeah, so suicide respite centre where you're going to stay for a few days and actually getting me to the front door was tough wasn't it I think that was at a point when I hadn't left the house for weeks. And I was very very scared of the whole world and already got placed which is why I needed to go there but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I wouldn't. I think yeah, I think maybe that's why I've been worried about this is like I don't want to give you a sense that it's the job of the friends to like fix like it's not first it's the job of the person who's struggling and as I said to you throughout this and always ultimately the hard works with you. But that hard work should take place in a professional context, but like the support and love around that professional context and getting people to the front door. I think that is something I don't think that is beyond most people. I think even just on a practical level I mean you were always very encouraging of me in terms of actually attending my therapy and leaning into it as well because I think it's one thing to turn up and another thing to like really show up and you encourage me with that but you also just not just you obviously Tom my husband helped with this too but it was very difficult for me to work through the really hard stuff in therapy and I wasn't safe afterwards always and actually I knew that you were there or Tom was there if I needed it afterwards and you would sometimes physically be there or you'd be on the phone or you'd help me plan so that you know and even just on a practical level actually that that's very, very helpful. Yeah, and I mean, like as I recall you're taking some of that support in central London, and like it was pretty straightforward to come and to come and meet you and like put you on a train or you know sort of get you on your way home and know that there's a kind of risky, risky moments for you and like vulnerable moments. I just to say that I think there's a lot more hard work that Tom needed to do and frankly, you know, much higher stakes for him as well. He's he's one of the nicest people I've ever met. I've always liked him a great great deal. He's a good man. And that would have been like that would have been really, really hard for him because like because everything's kind of bound up in that. But maybe like sometimes with a friend, there's the space to like, I don't know. Say, say things where it's not quite as high stakes and not quite as important as like if the person did. If the friend did say oh well that's a terrible thing to say you shouldn't share that with anyone else. And obviously I never did that and people won't do that but I can understand when you've kept things inside for a long time you're nervous about sharing them. So having someone you can share with I think is a is a good thing even if they're not like the central person in your in your life. So I think I like the idea of team and I think I played my part. I think we've talked about Matt I've never met him but he sounds to me like a very, very good professional like at the top of his profession. I think he got the right person there. And you like you made a good choice of your husband as well. He's a great guy and I know that you've got lots of other friends and family around. Like everyone plays their part in that in the team. And I think I, I'm proud to play my part. But also, it's the team around the person and the person is the one who's staying a really, really hard work. And that's you. Yeah. Well, I think that the thing you kind of mentioned a couple of times that really stuck with me and that I still think of now because it's not like, you know, so it has a happy ending but this very much, you know, it's not where it was but it's still I work hard all the time to stay well. And, but the thing you taught me was choose love and I remember you saying that and yeah everything's a choice all the time and choose love was is something that's kept me safe on more than one occasion. And I think the other thing is, you know, you have talked about being a little worried about people, you know, you might not have always done the right thing but I think that what you, you always did. And I wouldn't, I don't, I don't, I think, you know, I'm here and I'm incredibly grateful to you and I can't remember enough of the detail to be honest to kind of pick it apart and analyze it but I was, you know, I am incredibly grateful to you. But the thing that you brought above all else was that you are human in every situation. So there were many times I know there are times where actually, you know, there were events. There were many, many, many other times when I had a very clear plan when I reflect on various parts of my journey, when I'm amazed that I made it through the day because I would have put myself at such high risk if I was assessing myself now. And yet, there was something, you know, a connection a conversation something that was said that just brought me back into being with people and sometimes that was you sometimes it's being else but it, you know, many times it was you say thank you. I didn't come up with the choose love thing myself as one of many of my bits of fortune cookie wisdom that I borrow of others. Other brands. And I love that choose love store by the way, like this they got such good, they got such good stuff in there. But yeah, like you. Wisdom is often sort of borrowed rather than stuff you come up with direct. The only the only other thing I think it's worth sort of mentioning is like you said, you know, things aren't as they were, and it has been very painful but we also we always talked about that Japanese pottery didn't we like it was they call it kinsuri or something. Yeah, where the pottery breaks, and then they use this lovely sort of golden glue stuff to put it back together. And that is, as a result, the sort of the fixed version of the poster is more beautiful than it was when it started and it is different. And you can see the lines where it's been broken. But it is, it is like it is absolutely beautiful that that poster and I think it is an amazing way to kind of see the world like the, the, like you can't just push the pain away, and you can't fix everything that's going to happen in the past. But I think what you've shown is that you can build a really really good life and a rich life. And I think it's getting richer all the time and like this conversation you're being open like being continued, you'll continue to be open with people you're about speaking really openly to someone the other day, like, and the more that you do that, the more that richness and that that sort of beauty of life will come through and that you will find people who've had common experiences of not the same experience but have had painful experiences. And yeah, you're there will be a sort of new and different type of beauty in the world but I do think it will be more authentic is more authentic and less like more traditional than that, than it has been. And I think that that's, that's worth the like, it's all worth it. And I hope that you would agree with that. Yeah, I'm glad to be here. Good. Yeah, and thank you. What do you have any closing thoughts. This is where you say something really deep and meaningful. The last the last hours just like just right. No, you said a lot of meaningful stuff but you know I'm a psychologist primacy and recency effect people always remember the last thing that you said so what's the thing you want to leave in people's minds as we close this quite tricky conversation. I don't know, like, when so yesterday before we did this you tweeted that we're going to do it. And as you always do when you tweet, like you got loads of likes and retweets and all the rest of it but you also got people reply. And, you know, because you asked me and I saw all the replies. And there are people who are saying I wish I'd seen, I wish I'd seen the signs. How do you sort of protect yourself like lots of lots of kind of difficulty and unknown and challenge around confronting this issue. All I would say is that you're like as a friend or a supporter or whatever else you're not a clinician it's not your job to to fix it. You can't fix it. Ultimately, only the person can fix it with support from really really skilled professionals like that's the only way to really really sort of fix it and as we discussed before it's not fixing so much as kind of getting into a new normal and surviving life life will never be perfect but I think with love, you can help people turn the corner and love means not backing away and you'll find your own way to do it. And it might be that you need to ask a question like, I want to be here to support you. I want to love you. Tell me how I can help. And it may be that you just need to follow instructions. But if you can, if you can find it within yourself not to back away that very act will mean so much, I would imagine for the other person to try to try.