 episode 24. Hello. Thanks for joining us. My name is Karen Rundlett and I'm a journalism director at Knight Foundation. Knight Foundation is where we think about informed and engaged communities first and foremost all the time in all of our grant making. Now much has been said and of course written about bringing newspapers into the future. And yes, I am saying newspapers today in this instance because in most communities they actually are still the largest provider of originally reported local news. The largest provider of originally reported local news doesn't mean there isn't a television station, a public radio station, a nonprofit newsroom, a for-profit newsroom. And especially in smaller towns and communities where those things might not even exist, those other alternatives. And so getting those newspapers up to speed has meant digital transformation or a radical re-centering of community inclusion and equity in the work. But what if it just wasn't about changing what was happening inside the newspaper company? What if it was about changing the structures and news structures that newspaper companies were operating in? Would that give them more of a fighting chance? Today we are speaking with Frazier Nelson from the National Trust for Local News. That's an organization that's partnered with other organizations to purchase 24 newspapers in Colorado. Frazier, thanks so much for being here. Thank you. I'm actually in Colorado right now so it's exciting to join you. And of course our thoughts are all with you in Miami this morning. Thank you. Thank you so much for saying that. Frazier, first, I just need the elevator pitch. I need you to just say what is the National Trust for Local News? Sure. I'm so glad to be here with you to talk about it. It is complicated so I want to just make sure that I'm being as simple as possible. But we really believe strongly in community newspapers. The kind that you just described, Karen, the newspapers that serve the communities outside of Denver where I was visiting yesterday like Evergreen, Colorado, which is a beautiful place you should visit the summer. These communities are small and they are extremely loyal to their local print newspaper. It's the way that people get information about what's happening in their communities, promote all the terrific festivals that occur out here in the West in the summers and the rest. And the National Trust for Local News really felt that the thing that was missing in the ecosystem that you and so many others have been a part of building is the financing to help transfer the ownership of these papers from oftentimes families and small businesses to the community itself. So the National Trust for Local News is in essence a financing entity. It is an advisory service that works with communities and their newspapers to move them from one form of ownership, private, usually family, to locally owned. And in that way we really are creating innovative news structures to, as you pointed out, really help these newspapers transform to better meet the needs of their communities and be sustainable for the long term. Excellent. So Frazier, here's the thing. There are folks in this audience who know this territory very well about journalism, but Knight funds arts, we fund communities. So why does local ownership even matter? Just explain that concept to anybody who doesn't know. Well, you know, the dialogue has really been about the death of news, of local news, and then particularly about the death of local newspapers. And we've been hearing so much about the Chicago Tribune and the Baltimore Sun and these big, big properties where the numbers are enormous, the amount of money it would take to purchase them, and the amount of money we're talking about, it just seems so out of the realm of possibility. But when you look at really local newspapers, there are about 6,500 what we consider community newspapers. And these are small properties that are profitable. They're extremely valuable to their communities around economic development, around telling the story of the people that live in these communities and the government and the rest. These papers have been around for, you know, evergreen, the Littleton independent here out here in Utah, way more than 100 years, 150 years or so, they're deeply embedded in their communities. And the communities rely on these papers and we believe they can own these papers. So we're about trying to create new structures that can help these newspapers transition from private ownership to community ownership. It could be a public benefit corporation, it could be a nonprofit, it could be another person in the community who's willing to take on the paper. And we're also interested in providing the kinds of operating capital that can help these newspapers make a leap from potentially just print, print and digital, or to the higher new staff. And we bring with our funding advisory services that help with that. And as you mentioned at the top, Karen, it's really important for these papers to think about the future and to think about it through the lens of diversity and equity and inclusion and to make sure that the voices of all the people in the community are heard, anticipated, heard and that they have a say about what the coverage includes. So those are big shifts. You can imagine someone holding a newspaper. It's been in their family for two, three generations. They no longer have a person who's ready to take it over. How do we take that really important history, cultural history, and the future and move it with community support? That's really what we're about. We think these papers are ready for a renaissance. We don't think they're dead at all. We think that they need some love and care and some planning and some support, but they are perfectly capable of serving their communities for decades to come. But a lot of people are very pessimistic about local news. So why the optimism from the National Trust for local news? Why the optimism? Well, I'll tell you just last night, I went up to Evergreen, Colorado, and hung out in the bar, had a copy of the Canyon Courier with me, and I talked to as many people as I could. And they are so excited that the National Trust for local news has made the effort and with the support of the Gates Foundation, the Colorado Trust, the American Journalism Project to purchase these papers and to ensure that they continue. People love their print paper. The bar owner said, I like to see my ad. These are economic drivers for their communities. It's how they advertise. If you're in the middle of the mountain someplace or you're in a rural community, you can't afford the television of Denver. There's no other way for people to learn about what's happening. A big issue out here, water, the water board, the school board, these are the people that are really down in their communities. And without this information, the community loses a sense of itself. I mean, these are trusted sources of local news. They have deep civic trust. They provide services that no one else is providing and can provide. And so we know, I heard firsthand, oh, you're the people that are helping us. Thank you. We love our paper. We love the Canyon Courier. And we've heard that from all 24 of the properties that we were part of this initial transition. I mean, purchase. So let's get back to the word purchase. So the National Trust for Local News in partnership with other organizations and other stakeholders locally purchased 24 newspapers. Yes, we did. So what does that look like? How does that work? Good question. And we're discovering it. You know, this is really very, very innovative. And I'm so proud of Elizabeth Hansen-Supiro, our CEO, and Lillian Ruiz, the other managing director for really being just shining lights about this and our incredible board, Steve Waldman, Mark Hand, just people who are just really, really laser focused on this problem of journalism in the United States. And what we did is we created an innovative way for the papers to be owned by the community. We created a public benefit corporation called the Colorado News Conservancy. Would you would you just define what a public benefit corporation is for the folks listening? A public benefit corporation is a for-profit company. It's not an offer profit. But the way these are chartered in Colorado and in other states is that profit is subservient to purpose and mission. So the mission of the Colorado News Conservancy, just like any other public benefit corporation, is to fulfill a community and a common good purpose. There's lots and lots of public benefit corporations. I mean, absolutely. You know, Tom Shuse, Jerry, Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream. I mean, there's big national examples. But at a local level, here in Colorado, the Colorado Sun is a public benefit corporation as well. And that is a digital first news organization that was started by the folks that unfortunately had to leave the Denver Post when it was purchased by Alden Capital. So we created this public benefit corporation whose mission is to conserve, promote, transform local news in Colorado. And we placed those 24 newspapers, Colorado Community Media is the name of the company, into that public benefit corporation. And what's cool about it is we jointly own the National Trust for Local News and the Colorado Sun jointly own this public benefit corporation. So we are mission driven from day one, not profit driven. Now, obviously, we want to be sustainable. And we need to make sure that the papers are, you know, selling subscriptions and selling ads and doing all the things that that newspapers need to do. But our first priority is to ensure that the mission of these papers, the public mission, comes first. The revenue that occurs as a result of our success on the finance side doesn't go to me. It doesn't go to the prior owner. It goes back to the Colorado News Conservancy so that they're able to continue the paper, grow, expand, build out their digital, hire new reporters, all the stuff we want to do. And the partnership between the Colorado Sun and the Colorado News Conservancy and the papers there allows us to really take full advantage of the expertise of the Colorado Sun and their editorial expertise and bring that to these hyper local print products. So this is an experiment. This is first of its kind. So anybody who's listening, what they're hearing is there was a chain of newspapers, family owned, that family wanted to make sure that the next set of owners were local and that they were mission driven. And we've seen, as you said, across the country that there have been hedge funds purchasing newspapers and those hedge funds aren't necessarily interested in the mission of a newspaper. And so oftentimes the mission goes away and job cuts happen and different changes are made and the community is losing information, news, journalism as a result. So here's the thing. There's this other model out there, the nonprofit newsroom. Why not just become a nonprofit? That's what the Salt Lake Tribune did. And as I understand, you were a designer of that plan. Yeah, and I'm very proud of the work that the Tribune did to become a nonprofit. And I think a nonprofit model makes perfect sense for a lot of papers. And we are agnostic as to the way the community owns it. We just want to make sure that local news stays in local hands. If it makes sense for a nonprofit model, that's terrific. In this case, the public benefit corporation made sense. But the trip is really very, very focused on giving these local papers, the financing and the advisory services that they need to move forward, how the community chooses to do that, how the funders in that community and the members of that community choose to do that. We are on the ground listening and trying to make sure that our work is reflective of those community needs and desires. I think an issue to keep in mind though is a small town like Evergreen that I keep referring to, probably not a likely place for a digital startup. They have a hundred and something year old paper that they love that serves the community really well, is profitable, is an economic driver in that community. They like it the way it is. They love having a digital presence is probably great, but it's not the kind of place where you'd say, let's start a digital first news organization. Where those are in the history of these papers, the fact that these 24 papers have been around and serving their communities for a hundred plus years, building that trust takes time. At least at the Salt Lake Tribune, a 150 year old paper with profound trust in the community made sense to keep it rather than to start something new. It really depends on where you are, what the community is capable of doing, whether or not you have broadband, whether or not internet is even an option for you to decide whether or not you'd want to start something new. So I mean you're really saying these organizations have assets, they have trust, they're well known, they have expertise after all this time. What are the places where they're struggling? Because the Colorado Sun and the National Trust are going to have to address that. So there have to be challenges. What are the challenges? Well I think the challenges are, these are, they have been small businesses and making an adjustment and of course for any of you that have worked in a small business or had your own business, you know you do it the way you do it. It's designed around the person that owns it. And so taking a business and transitioning it to a public benefit corporation from a purely blocking and tackling business point of view, there's things that that are involved there. I think that the community ownership piece is one also that we're going to continue to evolve with. How do we make sure that the Littleton Independent fully reflects the changes that are occurring in Littleton? How, what are we doing to really deeply engage with the community, listening tours, making sure that we're on the ground? And then I think as all of us are grappling with, what does it mean to be really committed to diversity and equity and inclusion in a rural community outside of a large urban center like Denver? These are the kinds of places where the community really can lead us, but we have to make sure that we're bringing them in. And that's probably a different model than a, you know, historically family-owned newspaper where the focus was perhaps more on the bottom line versus the community line. Now that's not necessarily true in every case of course, but I think there is a mind shift when you become locally owned, as opposed to privately owned. And I'm sure it's the kind of things that all of us are grappling with in this business regardless of whether we're in a small community newspaper or in a big urban newspaper. These are challenging questions that need to be addressed. So okay, so we've spent like the first part of this program talking about what's going on in Colorado and the deal and the plan. And I mean this happened early May, so it was announced early May, so it hasn't even been quite 90 days yet. But the National Trust for Local News is not only making this deal, you're going to be helping others in other communities. And I think a lot of people listening and watching today want to know what that means. So if I want to sell my newspaper, do I call you? What does your inbox look like? Our inbox is very happy. We're hearing from lots of people who just like Jerry Hadley, who is the owner of Colorado Community Media, are committed to keeping their local journalism in local hands. And they want to see a transition, a succession plan that includes the community and community ownership. And I think that that's an incredibly hopeful thing. So when I hear from a news owner in Kansas or in Georgia and Minnesota, New York, all kinds of places, they are beginning to think, wow, what's going to happen to this community asset, to this community institution? And I don't want it to close. And I don't want it to be in the hands of anyone other than the people it serves. And so there's a good deal of, I think, relief is probably too strong a word, but there's a sense of like, oh, someone gets it. Someone sees that this is an asset. And with all of the negative news coming out about the demise of newspapers, people are excited that someone sees the value, the civic value, and the economic value of the properties that they have created and stewarded for generations. So you can imagine that some of the calls I've had have been people who are relieved, I guess, is the word. Now, are we going to be able to help all of them? Are all of them worth investing in? Maybe not. Where are we going to get the assets to do that, et cetera? Those are important questions. But I think right now what we're learning is the passion that people have for their local newspapers is profound. Their desire to see it remain in local hands is very, very clear. And what we need to do is build a model that can be replicable across the United States, have efficiencies that can help us transition local news to local hands. So we're looking for partners to help do that. And in community, we go into communities where we know we have strong partners. As I said, the Colorado media project out here has just been tremendous with the support of the Gates Family Foundation and the Colorado Trust and a national partner, the American Journalism Project. Though they are focused on digital first startups, they're interested in seeing how local newspapers can play into a community's understanding of its needs and challenges and successes. So we're so grateful for their support as well. And I think that there's ample opportunity to put this conservancy model together across the country. So if somebody wants to not just call you about selling their newspaper paper, but if they're interested in purchasing it, you're taking those calls as well. We'll take all calls. We're interested, I mean, we're really interested in understanding what the landscape looks like. You know, as I said, there are about 6,500 or so papers in the country that fall within this community newspaper. You know, dozens of them serve communities of color or linguistic communities. In the African-American community in particular, there are very strong family-owned newspapers. But the succession issues there are just as real as they are out here in Colorado. How can we ensure that the wealth that has been generated by these papers stays within that community, but provide these papers the supports that they need in order to make a transition that frankly needs to happen. You know, we need to get more digital. We need to make sure that things are archived, all that kind of stuff. We hope that the National Trust for Local News can be of assistance and of service to those families and those communities. Yes, actually, in fact, in Miami, it was an African-American newspaper, the Miami Times, which ended up purchasing another community newspaper, which was not necessarily African-American in its focus, the Biscayne Times, because they were both committed to local news and it remained in local hands, local news in local hands. So, okay, so... And I just want to say quickly, Karen, we're not just about purchasing papers too. We also provide these advisory services, linking into so many of the terrific partners that Knight and others have funded, you know, Old Town Media, The Village, all these different groups that are out there, and this was my experience at the Tribune. There were so many wonderful intermediaries and service providers that had been created, but we didn't have the money to hire them to help us. So, by becoming a non-profit, we were able to raise the money that allowed us to then bring in the experts that we really needed to make an important transition in a business model, and also, you know, to our readers and the rest. And that's the true in these other communities as well. When we want to purchase a paper, provide advisory services, it's not the three of us doing all the work. We're tapping into those networks that, frankly, these for-profit, small, you know, family-owned papers don't even know exist. They're like, what? There's someone that can help you with that? Yes, there are, and we know them, and we love them, and we trust them, and we will introduce you to them and help you access them. And that's been a tremendous benefit to the Colorado Community Media papers here, and I know would be a benefit to many across the United States. Absolutely. So, okay, so the deal was announced beginning of May, and we are approaching the end of June. We're not quite there yet. So, I mean, I guess you're sort of on your 90-day listening tour? Where are you sort of at the end of 90 days, and then, you know, what are you thinking? Where are you thinking you'll go from there with the Colorado News Conservancy? Well, we're in the process of hiring a publisher, and that's going to be a really big decision. So, we don't want to, you know, do a whole heck of a lot until that person is on board, although we're with our strong partners at the Colorado Sun providing editorial supervision. The trust is really providing a lot of business support at this time. We've, you know, we've transferred to business. We've had to rebuild the books. We've had to do a lot of work along those lines. We have a 100-day plan, and we're pushing through it, all the kinds of things that you would do when you acquire a new company. But that listening piece is really the next step. When we have the publisher in place, we are going to be spending a lot of time talking with folks, and she or he will be spending time talking with people about what their needs are, what their expectations are. We're also raising money. You know, the National Trust for Local News is a nonprofit itself, so we're raising money to keep our doors open, and we're raising money to allow us to do this kind of work in other communities. We're also talking a lot with and thinking about how we can build out this conservancy model across the country. We have a group of folks we're working with in Kentucky that work at a community development financial institution who really see that transitioning to a global economy means they need local journalism. They need to tell their story. They need to build their economy, and the newspapers in eastern Kentucky are big employers. So we're trying to find those anchor institutions in the next 90 days, not just in Colorado, but around the country that can help us really be of service in other communities. And here in Colorado, we're really about shoring up and giving support and working with the employees. There's 40-some employees, and we want to make sure that they understand who we are and what our dreams and goals are for them, and working really closely with them. I've just been holding meetings with the staff out here this week to just make sure that they are an integral part of the transformation of newspapers. They are really in a different role than they were, you know, 90 days ago. They are part of a community effort, and they see themselves that way, and that's a big leap. It's an exciting leap for them to make. So I just want to invite our audience to, you know, I've been asking a lot of questions. We definitely want to hear from you. Frazier has already said that she wants to hear from you, if perhaps you're interested in selling a newspaper company, buying a newspaper company, or finding out about support services and expertise. And if you weren't paying attention, she also said there's a publisher's role out there. So watch informed and engaged, and you can learn about where to get a job. So I'd love to get some questions from the audience as well. I do want to touch on policy ideas because there has been recent talk about, we talk very much about philanthropy, the role of philanthropy in potentially supporting the future of local news. And Knight is certainly interested in that, but every foundation is not. The Gates Family Foundation is incredibly committed to that, the Gates Family Foundation in Colorado. And there are a number of other local funders too, but there's also been, really, since the pandemic, just increased conversation about policy ideas and what government can do to support the idea of some sort of source of trusted local news and information. So what do you think will, what policy ideas do you think could kind of help support local journalism? Well, I know that Karen, you've hosted some conversations about that with Steve Waldman, who is chairing the, I think the big national drive and has done so much work and so much heavy lifting bringing people together around these ideas. Certainly, there's, I think, for the larger papers issues around pensions and, you know, all kinds of things that are, that are legacy debts, basically. And how do you make it possible for a community to afford to buy its paper? I think that one thing that's important at the local level is thinking about these newspapers as economic drivers. You know, they're employers, but they also drive people to the local stores. And we've heard loud and clear in these communities that these papers are critically important to local economies. So things that can help in the transition to allow for tax benefits to retain newspapers. Some of these experiments have been done in, in Canada. But can people get, you know, a tax benefit if they subscribe to their paper? Can people, as they sell their papers, find a tax benefit of some kind or their ways to reduce some of the legacy debt that comes along with them? I think all those things are really critical. And I would encourage people to look at Steve's work and others as they've been really toying with some of the national, you know, legislation that might be helpful that's in Congress right now. And certainly, writing your Congress people and they know that you support local journalism. But when we have this big debate about infrastructure, to me, there isn't, you know, local journalism is an absolutely part of our infrastructure, which tells that our bridges are failing. We wouldn't know if the newspaper wasn't doing it. I was having a conversation yesterday with a woman who works at the Telluray Foundation, which is very interested in Littleton, Colorado. And they really see the Littleton independent at the center of all of their initiatives around education, around economic development, around entrepreneurship, around the environment, and around infrastructure, which they're building out here in Littleton as this whole area just blows up. And I'm sure many of you know the West is really on fire literally, but it's also on fire in terms of its growth. It's the papers that are keeping an eye on that. So Congress is understands that. And the other thing is Congress people, having worked for one, like local news, because it covers the bacon that they bring home. They like somebody actually covering their efforts. So when we talk to our Congress people, we're talking to someone who's kind of in our camp, but we need to put in place some regulatory supports and tax supports that allow newspapers to give them a fighting chance. And, you know, so much of our research has shown that when there is no local news, what's filling our heads is a national news or misinformation. And so there's lower voter turnout. Political races aren't as contested. There's less cohesion in communities. Okay, so I want to go to some of these questions here. They're pretty spirited. So what mechanisms do you have in place to ensure that the newsrooms you now own don't feel the pressure of meeting stakeholder demands instead of being committed to accurate reporting? So I guess it depends what stakeholders are talking about. If the community is saying we really want coverage of our community, not just national news, you know, these ghost newspapers that you've heard about, or someone buys a newspaper, a large chain buys a newspaper, and the local news just goes down to nothing. And it's national headlines or it's headlines from a property they own in a big city. The community wants coverage of its own community. That kind of stakeholder demand, we're about meeting. We want to meet that demand because we believe in that. If the stakeholder demand is, you know, an owner, that's why we think that ownership should be local. It should be those public benefit corporations, those nonprofits, other things that are really mission first and mission driven. And the mission is quality journalism. The mission is not just profit. The mission is in profit going off to some company, you know, in Los Angeles. The mission is local news, local reporting, and local engagement. So those stakeholders were more than willing to be listening to. Outside stakeholders, I think not so much. I hope that answers the question. And of course, if you wanted to add more, okay, we're getting more here. If you wanted to, you know, please jump in here, and we have a little bit more time. Ultimately, an endeavor, another question, and ultimately endeavor like this comes down to funding. Outside funding, I mean, this is a question again about outside funding coming with special interests and reduced independence. I think I'd like you to answer the question of where the funding comes from. And how do we know that that funding, you're not under any pressure really to tamper with the reporting. Well, the funding for this particular transaction was more complicated than any we ever hope. We actually the National Trust actually got a loan to purchase these papers from a group in New York called FJC, which is a foundation that provides loans to nonprofits. They have nothing, they just provided us the money. They have no oversight whatsoever on the paper. The loans were guaranteed by nonprofits, the American Journalism Project, the Colorado Trust, which is a large foundation here in Colorado, and the Gates Family Foundation. There are, and then the papers were placed in this Colorado News Conservancy. There are walls up in the bylaws and the way we constructed these businesses that ensure that there is just like in all of you that have started nonprofit newspapers, no leakage. Now, do we listen to what the Gates Family Foundation thinks is important? Yes, because they know this community. And do I think that the American Journalism Project, which is one of the underwriters of the loans, has good ideas? Yeah, they've got great ideas. We're listening to them about what's important about local news. We're not listening to them about, hey, cover this and don't cover that. They're not making those suggestions, right? They're not in the weeds. They're with us at the high level. But funding is absolutely critical. In order to do this, I mean, this number might blow your minds, but to transform, save, preserve, however you want to put it, 4,000 independent newspapers that exist right now in the United States, we think would take about $311 million. Now, that's a lot of money. But the Alden Tribune transaction was more than twice that. So when you think about it, these newspapers, you know, some of them are for sale for $50,000, $100,000. These are not million, multi-million dollar, $10 million deals. Our Colorado Community Media Transaction was a million five, and included in that was some money for operating. So we're not talking about outrageous sums of money. A community that deeply loves and is passionate about its local newspaper should be able to buy it, should be able to own it, and should be able to sustain it. And I believe that that is true. It was true in a large metro area like Salt Lake. It certainly can be true in a small community where a newspaper can be purchased for, you know, well under a million dollars, well under half a million dollars. So I will say that the conversations about owners sort of shaping coverage come up quite frequently in the conversations that we host on informed and engaged. And so much of the time it really is about being clear up front. So what you said about the walls and being transparent about the strategy. And the big laws and all those things. And you know, people want their newspapers. They want them to be hard-hitting watchdog papers. And what are the people boards doing? The only person who's going to tell them, you know, is the local paper. But they also want to mitigate that polarization that you talked about when they have local news. It's not right, left, north, south. It's just what happened at the school board last night. Right. It's the fact. So you can debate what outcome you want, but it's not polarizing in the same way that we see on national television, right? It's a different conversation that's occurring. When you're covering the person that won the best pig at the county fair, people are not going to get up in arms about that. It's a truth. This was the best pig. And everybody celebrates that kid who entered the pig. So it's that kind of news too. It's community news that brings us together. It's news that tells our story. And that's true in communities of color that these newspapers that have historically served Latinx and African American communities and in a rural community, it's the same thing. So that brings me to a question from Daniel on LinkedIn. He's just asking, I think you just started to talk about it. We've talked about African American newspapers as well, but you know, have there been any conversations around Latinx focused newspapers? So I just want to say to the audience again, this is the first of its kind. And I know you said your inbox is full. So just are African American and Latinx and Asian publications approaching you? I haven't heard from an Asian publication. And one thing I just want to make perfectly clear. The National Trust for Local News isn't airlifting into communities, parachuting in and saying, hey, we're here. We want to be and we need to be invited. And that's important no matter what kind of newspaper we're talking to, what kind of community we're talking to. That's why finding a group of folks like LMA who can say, hey, we can really help bridge conversations between the newspapers that we're working with and you. We don't want to come in and say, hey, we're here to solve your problems and let us stand back. If you're not, we're here. Not at all. We need to be invited, encouraged by an owner, by a community. We need to be respectful of the long relationships that these communities and owners have had. We're here to just facilitate and bring some capital and some expertise. We are not here to as I said, just parachute in. So it would be really critically important that any newspaper owner, regardless of the community they serve or the community they're from, comes to us and says you are welcome to have this conversation with us. We would appreciate your input as opposed to us saying, hey, we really want to pick and choose among properties. Does that make sense, Karen? This is a community-driven approach by the Colorado media project. There's an opportunity out here we think you guys could help with. We didn't say, wow, are there some papers in Colorado we could buy? No. That's not why we're going to do this. It's not that we wouldn't do it. Right. So Dale on LinkedIn, I think if you're thinking about a specific community, it's about really making sure there's support for it there and interest in it there. They're not trying to come in as uninvited guests or partners. And you know, our inbox can never be full enough until I see 6,570 newspapers. We want to hear from all of them. We have a little diagnostic tool that we send out to help us understand what the circumstances are. But if you want to write us, we will write you back and we will enter into a conversation with you. And if we can't be helpful, we hopefully will have some ideas about who could be. Wonderful. Frazier Nelson from the National Trust for Local News. Thank you so much for joining us today on Informed and Engaged and speaking to us about this incredible new deal that we're all going to be watching and speaking about the services that you're offering and the interest that you're getting in local journalism ending up in local hands. Thank you to everyone who listened today. I appreciate you. And I know all of us listening are just so grateful for all the support that Knight has given us and that you've been giving us over the year in a really tumultuous time in our history. It's been great to have a real pillar to lean on as we move forward. Thank you, everyone. Have a great afternoon.