 Good morning everyone, welcome to Bariatu, to listen to Ivan Gulenko, who will talk about how to make IT recruiting surplus. We'll have a talk of about 25-30 minutes and then we'll be able to share, to ask questions and have a discussion about what we have for it. So, please. Cool, so, hi guys. The goal of this talk is essentially to give some of you who are hiring managers a chance to get inspiration how to improve IT recruiting in your company. And for you who are more candidates, maybe job seekers, how to tailor your profile in a way that companies will not overlook you. So, let's see. So, I'm an engineer and people ask me why would you do recruiting, why do you do this job that is often well done by people who are non-technical, who just match keywords. And, well, the reason is that there is many things to do just because of that. And there are a couple of companies that are doing already a very good job higher than Honeypot are trying to reverse the process, so to make companies apply for engineers. There is Starfighter I.O. Essentially, they are teaching engineers how the stock market works and how to write software in this space. It's done by Patrick McKinsey, who is sort of famous on Hacker News. Also, there is Interviewing I.O. by Eileen Lerner, who is a computer science MIT graduate that has been doing technical recruiting for a couple of years in the Bay Area. And now she has a platform where Bay Area companies are matched with engineers. And it's all about code. So they have sort of a coder pad and they do algorithmic challenges on data structure. And they've even went so far that they would anonymize the voice, so it's not possible to see if it's a woman or a man interviewing. Also, there's WorkShape I.O. from London. They essentially had the idea, well, let's ask the engineers what you want to do in your next job. And in this case, somebody said, okay, I want to do front-end and UI, UX. And the company says they look for it like UI, UX person. And then there is like a shape and it's matched over each other so you can see clearly the interests of the engineer and the interest of the company. So this is how matching is done by WorkShape I.O., a very cool company. Then there is Triple Byte, Silicon Valley-based Y Combinator startup that recruits for other Y Combinator startups. So they essentially tell you, well, if you interview with us, you will skip all the steps and jump right to the final interview at Dropbox or Airbnb or whatever. And this is definitely a super attractive offer for engineers because in my experience as a recruiter, I noticed that after five interviews, there's a interview fatigue, so you're like tired. You don't want to interview like anymore. So this company gives the value add that you kind of skip steps, which is pretty cool. My motivation is that I believe that hiring is even more important in Europe because in Europe, it's less of a higher environmentality like in the U.S. So here, if you hire somebody, you really stick with the person. And it's the most important aspect in my opinion to have cool coworkers because no matter how cool the project or product is that you work on, at some point you'll be bored in a way. And the only thing that in my experience kept me going as an engineer were the coworkers, my boss, and the people I would spend more time with than with my spouse and stuff like that. So that's something to keep in mind and I would really urge that you get involved with the recruiting and hiring process in your company no matter if you're a hiring manager or a candidate. Don't let HR screw up the job ads and take part in the recruiting processes in your company. A Google recruiter once told me that at Google, A players hire A players or A plus players whereas at normal companies B players hire B minus or C players. So please, well, don't do that because I believe it's kind of true at some companies and I would really like to see that you invest a lot of effort in to get your recruiting processes right. However, I would not recommend to copy the recruiting process of Google and ask to, well, spin, well, transfer red black trees into binary trees where the prime numbers are divisible by three or something like that. Because the big companies, they can ask those questions because they have a revolving door of candidates. Because of the big brand, any way engineers will come to them and they have many resumes to look at. So they have kind of a prestige being such a big brand which your company probably does not have yet. But don't be disappointed because prestige is just fossilized inspiration. If you do anything well enough, you'll make it prestigious. But up until you are at this point, you have to make your processes in recruiting in a way that are attractive to engineers. So show what you have. You don't have a big brand name, but you maybe have a cool technology stack, great opportunity to contribute. So especially junior engineers will love if you tell them, well, we need an API that does this and that. Please, in this internship in three months, you're going to build this for us. This is, in my experience, the only way to get Google quality interns in your no-brand company. You give them a big chunk to work on. And reply fast to increase. So I just talked yesterday to an engineer and he said, well, he interviewed with two companies and the second one answered in two minutes and he stopped sending resumes to others. So as a hiring manager, I would really urge to do this as quick as possible to reply and get back to people. At this conference, I saw one especially good example, Binder. They have two posters and on the right poster, you see exactly the technology stack very clearly. And on the left, you see, do you have what it takes to influence our product? So they communicate, okay, you're going to have cool technology stack and you can contribute. You don't see anything really about the product and what they're doing. Whereas on the other posters, if you go outside, you have lots of, you know, more marketing-oriented material, which was clearly not designed for this conference where this poster is clearly recruiting material. So if you get into the effort to really look at what you want and which kind of engineers you think you want to attract, there is a list of programmer types done by www.triplebyte.com. This is based on 10,000 matches that they have done. So they matched engineers with companies and then they looked at what are the differences and you get some kind of profiles that some of you might recognize yourself in. For instance, there is the academic programmer. So those are candidates who have spent most of their career in academia. Programming is part of their master research. They have very high raw intellect and can use it to solve hard programming problems. So this kind of guys, I usually ask if they can explain what a git rebase is to see if they ever have collaborated like with others and not just wrote scripts to, well, bang out some research thingy and then publish the paper. There's experienced rusty programmer. So those are candidates who have lots of experience and can talk in depth about different text-to-text databases explaining their positive and negative with detail. When programming during an interview they're a bit rusty, they usually get to the right place by the takes a while. So this is a place where probably all of us will end up in because we have about most some of us are young programmers, some are older, but at one point we will be there and I see especially at smaller and middle-sized companies a problem to really have people who are like over 50 to keep in the company and like to give them an opportunity to continue growing. But I'll get back to that later. Trial and error programmer. So candidates who write code quickly and cleanly their approach seems to involve a lot of trial and error however. They dive straight into programming and seem a little at hawk but their speed enables them to ultimately solve the problems productively. So this might be early stage companies that have no processes in place and they need people to bang out code like really quickly. Practical programmer. Candidates solve practical tasks with even very abstract programs. They aren't comfortable with CS terminology and don't have a deep understanding how computers work. They're not comfortable with stuff like C. So this might be engineers who work like for web agencies. Child prodigy programmer. Candidate is very young, 19 years old and decided to go straight into work skipping college. They've been programming since a very young age and they're very impressive in their ability to solve hard problems. They've also been prolific with side projects and are mature for their age. Slightly they'll find a company in the future. Product programmer. Candidates perform very well on tech interviews and will have the respect of other engineers. They're not motivated by solving tech problems however. They want to think about the product, talk to customers and have an input into how product decisions are made. So they're like more oriented towards the customer and those UI, UX issues. Technical programmer. Candidates are the inverse of product programmers. They interview well and communicate clearly but they aren't motivated to think about the UX or product decisions. They want to sink their teeth in hard technical problems. So the thing we saw with Binder is essentially something that communicates more to a technical programmer rather than a product oriented programmer. And those roles that we saw, well, Triple Byte in their very, very huge study, I mean 10,000 resumes is really like a lot, they found out that product programmers, at least in Silicon Valley, they are, well, companies like them most, whereas the academic programmer is kind of a bit ignored. I'm not sure if this applies completely to Europe because we are talking here about Bay Area startups and in Europe the demand is a bit different and I'm thinking if it's worth maybe to do a similar study in Europe with companies that are more, let's say, normal. So where to get engineers? So there are a couple of ways. So if you're like a company that doesn't have a big brand name, I'll recommend to have, for instance, a blog about technologies or about the IT in your city. So I, for instance, when I moved to Zurich, the first thing I did, I wrote a blog post about eight reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in IT and this was almost two years ago and I still got emails from people who are like, hey, I want to move to Zurich, introduce me to a great company. So this blog post was the reason why, well, I could start my recruiting company quite quickly. So if you're a company in, wherever, I'd recommend to, well, invest into a sort of an online presence about technology. Of course, meetups and attending meetups with a t-shirt with your company or organizing meetups is even better. It's an obvious way to get people interested in your company and make this sourcing problem easier. So the problem most companies have is they don't have enough applicants. So you have to do as much as you can to solve this. Employee referrals are underrated, in my opinion, so companies should pay or incentivize somehow if somebody brings in great people. So this was what Google does. So if you join Google, the first thing they do is they force you to spam your classmates or stuff like that. This is what I heard from some people. GitHub is an obvious way also to get engineers. So if you're like using Flask a lot, then it would be great to just look at the people who contribute there and get them on board. This is a bit the problem of location. So you can do queries like this to solve it a little bit. So you can use the API to query for, so in the get request, I'm not sure if you can see it from the back. It's like API, GitHub, search, users, location, bilingual, language, Python, and then you get the engineers who are like in bilingual that do Python. So and then don't be evil. Don't spam them. Rather look at their blog and if you send a cold mail, try to make it personalized and interesting for them to read it. So as a site project, I did the result of a hackathon, but we built a web interface to actually do this. So you go like an old JavaScript, like wow, and then you go, yeah, find engineers, and you click, and then you get like what you saw before, but nicely displayed, and then, yeah, you can look up what the people did before and stuff like that. So that's my site project. I call it like git recruit.io, and I try to correct the combination between automation and manual work in recruiting. So right now I have lots of manual work in Zurich, and I start to do it in Munich, and we'll just build more and more tools in Python to, well, automate the scraping of the API and do cool stuff with that, again, without trying to be evil. So if you contact the people, it will be great to learn how to reach out. A great example of that, I just looked up on my hard drive and anonymized it quickly. So that's a very, very, very cool company, and they send cold mails. And this cold mail, it's like not short. So it's rather long if you look at it. So it's like, so I'm the co-founder and engineer like you, so you try like first line to get in touch and to, well, we are the same, so we're not the spammy LinkedIn recruiter who just, well, spams 10,000 people, but rather you say, well, why I like you, so you try to make this part like personalized, and here it's rather semi-personalized. I would say it's like, I came across your website and based on your experience, I think you could be a great fit for us. So that's a bit lame. When I do this mails, I try to really look at the blog and if somebody has a blog entry about Lambda expressions in Java 1.8, I try to tell them, okay, look, this company also uses Java 1.8, and also, well, you care about this and would be maybe a great fit. So it's a bit less lame. The first line should be somehow, I mean, meaningful. And then you tell, I mean, what your company does and what the candidate can do for you. And this mail, this company really, the whole mail is actually pretty good, and they developed it with the CTO, CEO, and showed it to 30 people, A.B. tested it, and then they made a student send out those emails to scale it in a way. Yeah, that was pretty efficient, I believe. Yeah, and then what you do, so you have the candidate and you probably want to get to know them. So do a phone interview. So in a phone interview, the goal is to really find out if the candidate cannot do anything. So you ask questions that are like, everybody should be able to answer, like the famous fizz bus coding challenge where you just print the numbers 1 to 100 and divide them by three, divide them by five. So easy stuff. To get rid of the people who obviously cannot do anything, this would be important and efficient. And then maybe you give a homework assignment, which shouldn't be like 10 days, but rather maybe two hours or three hours, and this you can use to, at the onsite, talk about the homework and also on top of that give them maybe small coding assignments that you can do in pair programming to see if the person fits into the company in the way they work. So I generally see the most successful companies in recruiting, they try to spend with the candidate as much time as they can. So as a candidate, what can you do? I mean, obvious way is to have a resume that kind of resonates with the community. So people, however, read resumes on autopilot. It's really, I mean, I think the average spent by HR people and even hiring managers is maybe less than a minute. So it would be great to make it really short. So like a page per decade, I would say, is something that was reasonable. And contribution is more important than tech and framework. So like show how you contributed to the product, to the company, or to the project. It's rather more important than if you use like this or that framework. However, there is the problem with HR. So if there is a bigger company and if there is HR involved, you always will get the problem that you have to go through this filter first. And then you have to obviously mention some framework such that pay for what your CV to hiring managers. The worst case I experienced is when like a great engineer doesn't get awarded to the hiring manager just because the keywords are missing. Like that's really, really terrible and should not happen at all. So let's look at a couple of chunks of text and let's decide together if this is like good or bad. So like first one would be like this is like in a resume the part where you talk about what you did, right? So design software application including data modeling, software architecture, design, software hardware integration, user interface design and database management. Created and launched a service that collects product opinions and recommendations from Twitter. The service finds related tweets, removes spam, analyzes sentiment and creates a structured database of everything that was said about a particular product. The service is exposed as a consumer website and as widgets that can be embedded in online retail websites. Developed product name using Python and Django for marketing and allowing enthusiasts to experience blah. Evaluated and identified some operation system network stack performance bottleneck in latency per packet process overhead and scalability of different network IO models to various system measurement and profiling techniques. So which one do you like best? Three, four, two. Yeah so gentlemen said so depends who is reading this. So one is like number two is more for CTO and like number one is more for business people. Yeah I mean that's obviously right. So I would also like prefer two the most because you literally can like well from this short sort of short text you can see what happened and what the person did and of number four is my like second favorite and one and three is literally like especially one I can like I don't get like there's no like information in this sort of like zero entropy I don't know. So I don't get on really understanding what the person did in number one right. Although you're right like if you have the HR filter then the HR person literally might like one more. This is why recruiting is hard right. So from number one you don't see the result and you don't see the business value. I would like I would agree yes so it's a interesting thing to I mean the best thing is just to show to other people but probably you do this anyway to other IT people and then you can improve. So like this this might be like totally trivial that I say avoid typos but there is actually data that supports it like a lot. So this is also a statistic made by Eileen Lerner in her blog about I think she looked at 8,000 resumes in her career as a tech recruiter and the frequency of errors in typos was higher correlated with good engineering performance than other factors and those factors include a bachelor's from Stanford so that's BS and CS from top school. So the second biggest correlation point was if the person worked at a top company before like Google Facebook or Twitter. So if you want to train for interviews and you want to do a google style interview or a company that does google style interviews you just look at correcting the coding interview interview cake interviewing I also do like tons and tons of platforms depending on I mean your level right now I would calculate in like two weeks until two months that you train every evening in order well to perform well for regular companies well learn to communicate what you did exactly what you're proud of in your project and what you contributed and ask the companies how they will assess you and prepare accordingly so like don't be shy to ask exactly what the company looks for so and this is my most I like this part most so what many many candidates miss is to really interview actually the company back to really find out if it's a good place to work at so there are a couple of questions as you probably have heard of it's called the dual test so do you use source control can you make a build in one step do you make daily builds do you have a bug database do you fix bugs before you write new code do you have an up-to-date schedule do you have a specification do programmers have quiet working conditions this is what I check if I go to companies to like talk to them about what they need in hiring so I look at this a lot actually because I see that this is one I mean I as a programmer I want to have a quiet place to work do you use the best tools money can buy do you have testers do you do new candidates write code during interviews do you have hallway usability testing and those I mean things you also find us like overflow careers so they do the same assessment and questions I would also try to ask is if it's possible to see the source code of the company which might be able I mean this would be like something also to show off your code reading skills right and also some companies miss to invite you to go with the guys for a beer and stuff like that so I would try to politely suggest this to get to know the company so there are bonus questions that are really tricky and I would ask them if you like feel sympathy with the hiring manager and the interviewer so you can ask what is the most costly tech decision made earlier on that the company is living on right now and where do product and feature ideas generally come from so the first question would be more for the technical programmer and the second question would be more for somebody who is like a product programmer I mean this categorization in the beginning is just like a funny well interesting way to look at engineers so I kind of like to play with that but generally try not to ask like questions that are super uninteresting about about like vacation days to the engineers because their time is valuable and just ask this to HR please yep salary negotiations probably something that is underestimated and should get more attention if you get a new job so try to there's a couple of points that I like like to recommend so don't disclose your current salary if HR asks for it so because I mean essentially this can be a benchmark against you right and postpone the discussion about money as long as you can because well it's a benchmark and if HR insists then tell them you feel uncomfortable because you want to find out how you can benefit the company and based on that you can give a number so I'm a fan of postponing that as much as possible and if it's like absolutely not possible which might be the case for bigger companies then tell them okay I want it to not be a benchmark and hopefully it's fine then so if you like had the luck to get through the through the whole process and now this important moment where salary comes and they suggest your number then in my experience it's a dominant strategy if you try to just be silent because the other person out of social awkwardness will maybe continue talking there is a blog post about how somebody made 15k more just by not jumping up and down after getting actually an offer that was like on the upper scale of what she expected so no matter what number you get it's a business relationship and in the end you sell your time and you get the salary so for them you're a resource in a way and 5k more or less for a company that already went through the very painful process interviewing you in the end for them it's absolutely irrelevant 5k more or less but for you it makes the difference in five years or 10 years if you can buy a house or not so for you it's a big deal and for them it's not so don't feel bad to ask for more so the last thing I want to start the discussion with is long-term engineering career paths so the old and rusty programmer like it's a thing that the very senior engineering roles at smaller or middle-sized companies they don't really exist and people after 50 they don't really have like a way to well become better in their career unless they go to management so this is something that bigger companies really solved and this is something I tried to do research about at gitrecru.io where I try to match companies with candidates and if you have other ideas on recruiting just say hi at gitrecru.io and yeah that's my ideas about recruiting so so we have a microphone if you have any ideas that you want to contribute you can just tell me now or we can also like chat later. Thank you Ivan so we'll have a discussion if you have something to share or a question. Hi in my experience and maybe this is cultural if I send an offer to a person without mentioning the salary I get lots of rejections so maybe this is a cultural thing but here in Spain companies are used to offer crap money and if you don't start by giving a sensible offer lots of candidates reject the offer have you found this or is this something from cultural? That might be actually cultural so I operate mainly in the Germanic part of Europe so German-speaking countries and I think they might be less willing to discuss salaries and like talk about money compared to other cultures. That's uh I mean at bigger places there is also more like for instance Zurich is very small and the variants and like standard like standard deviation around them so you have a mean salary and you have like a standard deviation and in Zurich it's like super high so for instance I met senior engineers who make like 130k and like same qualified people who make like 70 at smaller companies because they are like low-balled and the city is small and therefore you have not like a standard number in New York or London you do have that so there's like less variants and there it might be more common also to ask for this because then they want to check if you're like aware of the market or not whereas in Zurich or smaller cities it's like there is no actually numbers so it's much more dependent on the company and other factors but yeah it's cultural I believe. Thanks for your talk it was quite interesting to see the other side so in particularly I liked when you mentioned that HR people spend like less than a minute typically on reading a CV oh yeah maybe like less than 30 seconds maybe less than 30 seconds so it's actually quite quite a similar case on our side I guess developers spend like 20 seconds reading the recruitment males because they all look the same so then there's obviously a question who should read those because developers don't get money for that and HR people do so the next question actually is if the HR people who do not read the CV carefully and still get money for that do not are incapable of getting those keywords out of the CV is it actually a good sign that they didn't reply to you which means that it's probably a bad company and you wouldn't probably apply there anyway or you think that there could be bad HR people representing actually a good company with your experience is there a correlation between quality of reading out the CV and quality of the company um probably there is a correlation I mean if you're a good and one thing you're good at like other things so this is actually a life question I'm asking you myself because on the other hand you have to say okay people who are good at one thing they are generally good at other things but then also there is like this halo effect so you shouldn't judge somebody because he's good at running that he's also good at like I don't know like other things so or like so this is like a research thing I think about a lot actually so I can't really answer that one thing to remember here is that everyone who works for a company has passed through HR first so the way HR works actually determines who's working for a company and so if you don't get along with HR you may not actually fit into that company because everyone else did oh yeah but um well I mean but if a company is small there is no HR and HR comes in later and I have like an example in Zurich great company they just hired a internal recruiter and this guy would turn down like I recommended them a guy who worked at Mozilla and like he would turn him down and I was like rather pissed because like I mean this HR guy is like a new hire and I'm very sure that this is a fit and he's like oh whatever Mozilla I mean HR is definitely and well anybody who is not able to write a read code is bad at assessing engineers so what I think I'm even planning to do like a workshop for HR people to learn about like computer science javascript Python and it would be like I think a two to three day course and it might be successful actually like this kind of training who would attend this like good HR people right so I believe you need some kind of training to assess engineers you know and actually like HR I mean in more traditional companies they think in a way that at other jobs there is really true that the engineers have to like back the candidates have to back to get the job but in our domain engineering it's the other way around like companies have to back to get engineers and many HR people don't get this hi um first thanks for this talk I'm here um and from my experience I can confirm that many of the things that you recommended work I also recommend sending out some test assignments before even looking at CVs so that's what we do for instance like we receive applications but we first actually see some work of the person before checking with the CV but that's not the point I wanted to make um the point I wanted to make is one way to suck at IT recruiting is to be exclusive to only talk to a certain type of engineer and I'm of course talking about diversity which is a very broad topic it's about gender it's about orientation it's about being big small it's about race it's about many things and one of the tricky things about those very successful ways of recruiting for IT is referrals for instance so if you get to your employees to refer their friends and their former mates well they will probably recommend similar people to them so you will lack in diversity and also if you go for beers beers with candidates or the guys are going for beer with with the candidates you also like missing out on opportunities to meet informally some candidates from other backgrounds who don't drink alcohol for many reasons could be health could be religion could be pregnancy or whatever so do you have any tricks to solve these type of issues so what we try is to have informal time for meeting candidates during the day where people are coming to the office so that's the lunch that's a coffee break something like this but maybe have some other ideas in your experience um yeah so there are like a big tendency towards all you said so to hire only like you know university graduates from the school and be like very in one direction it's very bad and inefficient so my dream as a tech recruiter is to help to make the market more efficient so to make it perfect so everybody finds a job that he or she likes and this is a very important aspect you should focus on and like people who are not fitting your profile in order to look at all available um candidates so I totally support what you just said yeah so thanks again for for the talk it was great and so I have two questions one is regarding the your suggestion that when we get an offer we should shut up and so does that apply also for emails I mean we we should wait or how does it work sometimes the offer comes in an email what's that again the offer comes in an email yeah so what do we do um so you don't I mean the social like you you you are quiet because you exploit like social uh norms if you don't reply to an email I'm not sure if this also applies um you could for instance call back like rather rather quickly and uh say that you you you are not sure about this in that point if she if she or he can repeat the aspect of the offer and then you again have the situation where you can let the other person know that you are like happy but not too happy okay so in general it's better to negotiate this in person that's your advice and I have another thing that I learned doing this business is that if people don't reply your emails that doesn't mean that they are not interested so like it happens so often um I'm hiring also for startups so there was like one founder um that uh just recently we talked and he was like yeah great yeah you're a great recruiter we want to work with you because you're a software engineer blah blah blah send me an email and then I'll send him email hey it was great chatting to you was super cool I have uh this and this uh terms and conditions let's work together silence like for a week so I write again hey how are you I just wanted to let to ask if you received my email and we can continue further talking about um this uh cooperation that we talked about last week silence and I have one example where I did this for 32 times and the 33rd time it was like hey Ivan I was really sorry that I couldn't answer I had to launch this rocket ship and stuff like this happened here and there and I'm so happy that you got back to me let's meet for dinner so so it's really important so like when people tell me I'm not interested I stop mailing but you have to keep up the email conversation because people have other things to do and you're like not the most important thing in their lives usually so um this is probably one of the biggest learnings uh doing this what's that hi so I'm guessing you might be a bit biased but when for somebody seeking a job would you suggest going through a recruiter if if as opposed to as opposed to job offerings given directly by the companies and my motivation for that is that so far my experience with recruiters was was a bit dreadful they were very aggressive and I kind of felt like I'm in a blockbuster for a movie just with me being the the main character and that kind of felt kind of weird and I had most much bit well is it okay to perceive the recruiter as the end as somebody who is working for that company is is trying to get my salary lower as opposed are you talking about like external recruiters third party yeah yeah oh yeah so like I'm I think about to get recruit out of my project's name because of this because the word recruit or recruiter has such a negative connotation that uh has a reason uh that well companies are or recruiting companies are usually pretty bad the whole sphere has a bad connotation because people do keyword matching not respectful um well towards the engineers um so uh I would suggest working with a recruiter if you like to know the market rates which companies are good in let's say a new city and like detailed information about the market then it could make sense to work with a recruiter but then again there is a big variance in quality so I try to be like on the top level in quality in what I do so I also don't work like with not so good companies I always only work with companies that I myself as an engineer would work at so you have to decide for yourself so if you want to move to another city and you want to know the market rates it might not hurt to exploit the recruiters to know to to get to know the market rates for salary and stuff thank you I just had a question about well as a team we interview people sometimes and well what are the good coding questions to to ask well it's a bit white but uh well I read something about well classical things like Fibonacci etc were not unnecessarily good and well it was quite an open question but or there are some things that are that you see more more how pertinent what it is so how to like what are good questions for interviews yeah so like the one part that always works is to to ask about projects the person did so this is even a question I like the questions most that are not getting easier when you know them and those are questions like if you can talk about a project that you did in the past and if if you're familiar with the technology stack you can like dive deeper like in a in an area and you see how much deep you can go with what you're asking and this is a way that always works theoretical questions not maybe not then yeah those google questions are good for google and other like companies that can afford to ask them I mean yeah it's also a good communication opener to to open the interview with a question about projects that the interviewer has has done before so they have something to comfortably talk about anyway exactly yes absolutely hi there is a area we not cover here and I was going to ask the can you share some tips how to find a good freelancer how to find a good freelancer wear a t-shirt that says I'm looking for now I don't I'm not sure there are different platforms on the internet I think the most important part is the freelancers to build trust as fast as you can so for instance if I need support with some engineering I always go like on upwork on similar platforms and I look only for people from Ukraine because then I can say hey I've been born in Kiev blah blah blah blah blah about the thing like about our like common heritage and then there is some sort of trust and like this is a little thing that I do do we have any other questions two three you how much time do we have left five minutes okay so then we make like one two three but the lady was first actually from I think you don't you work for hire.com okay this is not a pitch for hired at all um although I do recommend that you all go to it but we're only in London Paris and Berlin so if you're not looking to go there then don't worry about it um so I my experience mostly comes from the US I only moved to Europe about a year ago but I wanted to answer hmm yeah um sorry I'll talk louder um I wanted to answer your question about external recruiters uh one of the problems with why they're so aggressive and horrible is because most of the time they don't actually get a salary um their salary comes entirely from commission based on when they place you so they're gonna be as aggressive as they can to get you to accept an offer and to get you to accept an offer with the highest salary you can possibly get because that increases their livelihood of course if they don't make a single placement in a year they don't make any money that year which really sucks um I also want to say thank you for the presentation and that if you all are very interested in the data behind recruiting he had mentioned a lean learners blog she is a phenomenal engineer she has about 10 years of python data science background and her blog is all about that in ways the best practices when it comes to actually sourcing those emails and sourcing from LinkedIn if you don't want to use any external platforms it's really fantastic um and my last question to you sorry really quickly was what's the most creative interview process that you've ever seen um because a lot of the times when a startup does interview these one-on-one interview processes have noticed just don't work out quite well um it's very intimidating for the individual and if you don't know the runtime of a specific algorithm like you shouldn't have to know that on the spot whereas some people like Google really do think that that's important um so have you seen any that are particularly outstanding that really get to the you know programming techniques of the startup itself so you mean um I'm not sure like about the process but the way people were hired so one my absolutely favorite story is like a u.s. kid he's actually on this conference and not in this room so he was essentially dreaming of becoming a software engineer until he was 12 and he like he became homeless when he was 14 so like really really poor growing up in Illinois and really living on the streets until he was 23 and then he started to work as a mechanic like a mechanic and then looked at in TV that well software engineers actually make decent money and then he found a c++ book in a thrift store for $1.50 and every night after doing his mechanics job he did this c++ book where everything was like this code is deprecated this code is deprecated because the book was so old and and then he somehow ended up on a conference where he made a german company and this german company like seven months later they hired him like right away after he had like enough experience in python and jango so this is like like this goes back to what you said like exceptional candidates that are exceptional in their own way like being homeless and stuff this experience is like maybe something special so there are two more questions over here in front right hi i have two questions first is the github search available online or do you have it just locally so the api can be can be crawled oh yeah but about the website is it available online or they're the hackathon website you've built they will not sell this one yeah no it's local host okay and the second the second question i have is uh is about actually your website you mentioned that github services and trainings are free what we take 20 percent of each revenue that you make with ours so what does that mean oh okay so so what what i try to build is um so github should become a tool to enable to find engineers but i want to have like partners in each city that use use the git recruit tool so for instance this tool and other tools we build like a crm and a applicants tracking system that you can use for free so this is what i'm building with a friend and then the person who does the recruiting in bill bow in milan in munique he he gets all this training and the software for free and then um git recruit headquarters get a cut gets a cut of this i'm not sure how much the cut is or stuff like that um so this guy already like looked on the website and this was a very specific answer so sorry for the rest of you is there any questions so no more questions thank you even and thank you everybody for your interest