 would be so kind as to do that. Well, good morning, everyone. Good morning. Hello. We're here in Copyright Literacy Tower, aren't we? We are here. And this morning, we are sporting the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group t-shirts. I got mine for Christmas. I got mine for Christmas as well. Did you? T-shirt is what I'm talking about. Yes, it was. I bet people would like to know where they can buy them. I'm sure that they would, yes. Is there a website? I think there is a website. I think it's. Do I have the link to it that I had? Am I able to put it in the chat? No, of course I'm not, because I mucked around trying to get the audio to work. So if you could, so kindly share. Or in fact, it may be that one of our lovely participants today has the link and can do it for us. Absolutely. I'm not sure if Greg is there. I think Greg Walters, first person to sport one of these t-shirts available from the Association for Learning Technology Store. So, yeah. Here we go. We've got it. And the slides are coming up. Have you put your record? Yes, we're recording. We're recording, of course. So this smooth, seamless start has been captured for posterity. So we should just say, for those that you don't know who we are, I'm Chris Morrison. And I'm Jane Secker. And we co-chair the alt-copywriting online learning special interest group, among other things. But this is actually webinar number 46, isn't it, for those of you who don't know there, Roman Newells? 46, XLVI, poses to do. Yes. Oh, hang on. Turn that off again. Right, that's fine. It's OK. Everything is fine. We're just having a few crisis issues here. It's OK. I thought it was uncertainty, not crisis. We've gone back into crisis. Have we done that? Oh, dear. Right, OK. We'll need to change that for next time. Right, let's get on, because we do actually have a really, really good program today. We have an amazing program. We have, as just exactly, we have copyright news coming up, as ever, one of my favourite little jingle. And confessions of not one, but two, learning technologists spilling the beans about what ed techs really think about copyright. And of course, the educated. And maybe some other things. Do you think they'll confess about other things? Can we grill them about anything? Let's see. Let's see where we go, obviously, a chance for everybody to ask questions and get involved in a great conversation at the end. And then we'll have what's coming up next afterwards. Absolutely. Yeah, looking forward to it. Yes, indeed. So since we last met. So anything been happening? That's me last week. That is. That's me. So and you seem to be posing with a cake with candles on it. Yes, yes, as is the tradition when it is the anniversary of one's birth. Can you believe she's 24 years old? It's incredible. Might be a little bit older than that. But it's not yet a significant birthday. So but yes, it has been my birthday. And in addition to getting this wonderful t-shirt. Yes. Which I got actually for Christmas, not my birthday. Right, yeah. I got a really nice present, didn't I? OK, yeah. You advance the slides and I'm going to close down this thing so I can play the jingle when that comes. You've got so somebody very, very kind. Very kind to support you. Who knows of my musical talent? Yes. All that potential there is just untapped. Yes. So the the Katio keyboard, which dates from 1985, which has been dug out of my loft stroke basement and is now in full working order. Chris has got it there. He's got some amazing tunes. We haven't rehearsed this, have we? I mean, I wasn't going to do it, but I mean. Now you've got it going. Do you want to put a beat on? Or I think you need to put a beat on. No, no, no, no, let's leave it to later. OK, OK, we'll do it at the end. OK. We'll do it at the end. Anyway, I am known for my musicality. Yeah. And in addition to also now starting to learn to play the ukulele properly, I'm going to be playing the keyboard at some point. Let's hope that goes better than it did at our Christmas webinar. So, yes. Anyway, had a lovely birthday. So let's continue. Let's continue. The reminder that the full webinar and archive is available on copyright literacy.org site. It's also available on the Alt YouTube channel. It is, yes. We haven't got the link to there, but we've now uploaded the videos. Well, we're not doing it. The wonderful Christina and Alt is sorting that out for us once we have the recordings up there. Yeah. I'll just put the link into our web page. And actually, the web page has also got on it a link to the Alt YouTube channel. So if anyone's looking for that, we've got that available. So, yeah, we'll put the recording of this one up later today and we'll put the slides up as well if you're looking for anything. And if you're ever looking for the link to get into the webinar, I'm sure you know that's where it is, unless it's a closed session. Copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, copyright, use, there we go. What a new jingle. Well, it's the same jingle, but played really badly. But like, there we go. That is probably the easiest way. Now the jingles are all out of the way. Everything is good. OK, what's going on in the world of copyright, Chris? Tell us about copyright news. Indeed. So the first thing we've got on here is that the Skrl Copyright and Leap Group have a conference coming up next week, which is an absolutely amazing lineup. I mean, it's another blockbuster, really. You've got Ben White talking about text and data mining, Emily Hudson talking about controlled digital lending. We've got Bridget Vazina from Creative Commons talking about open culture and Glam. And Chris Banks talking about the, well, what is it? I can't, the writing's so small. I think it's about the UK. Development of institutional open access policies. Yeah, it's a common thought. It is. And the work that she's been leading for some time on the UK scholar, the communications license based on the Harvard model. So this is not to be missed. Absolutely not. No. If you haven't booked, then I'm assuming that there is still tickets available on Eventbrite. I'll put the link in a moment. I'm just getting there. I'm getting there. And I'll do that if you carry on to the next news item. Next news item is another event, the e-books crisis in Ireland. So that is, again, we've had lots of discussions here about the e-books crisis. But this is an Irish library event where Johanna Anderson is talking, the kind of key person in that campaign, but also with other academic librarians over the other side of the Irish sea from where we are currently. The next thing is a very exciting, I mean, this is super exciting. We've been talking about Fair Dealing Week for some time. And we are super excited to announce this launch event, which is being hosted by the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies. Jane and I will be chairing the event. We will be joined by friend of the webinar, Kyle K. Courtney from Harvard University, the inventor of. What they call in the US Fair Youth Week. Fair Youth Week, they now call Fair Youth Fair Dealing Week. We'll be doing a bit on just explaining to people what Fair Dealing is. So we think it's going to be quite a large, broad and diverse audience. And then we have Dr. Emily Hudson again, but also presenting alongside Professor Tanya Applin, my supervisor when I studied at King's College London, and they've been working together on a project looking at quotation norms. So that is just going to be brilliant. It is. I was currently failing to get any of these links into the chat to book these events. I tell you what, I will go back to the, I'll be the link monkey. And you can be the slide progressor. Thank you. So we're switching roles midstream. So, OK, over to you for the next event. OK, so next event is actually another Skirl event that is tied in with Fair Dealing Week. There is going to be a host of events happening and we're going to put a blog post up hopefully next week, just listing some of the other events that are going on. But Greg Walters is ever hot off the mark with the Skirl Copyright and Legal Matters Committee. They've already put together an event and they've got it advertised and up on their events page at the moment. So that one's going to be on Thursday, the 24th of February in the morning. And it's actually going to be really great. They've got Debbie McDonald talking about the kind of experiences at the British Council. Yeah, so Debbie, another friend of the webinar, a member of our gang who has got a really fantastic international perspective on all of these things. Clearly, she looks at UK law to deal with people all across the world. And how do you kind of square that circle really? Thank you for putting the links in the chat as well. That is OK. I am happy to do so. OK, next up, we have a survey that we picked up. I think I've got this from one of the open education lists. Creative Commons are very interested in OpenGlam. So if you're a gallery, library, museum, or archive, they're really interested in doing this piece of work. About what your needs are in this area. And they're sort of basically looking to use it to inform some development work, I think, with Creative Commons tools. So about putting work into the public domain and making that clearer. So it's a lot about how we share cultural heritage and the use of Creative Commons licenses. So if you do any work in that area, if you're in a library and you do, I would definitely urge you to have a look at that survey and consider filling that in to help inform the great work Creative Commons do. And then finally, we also picked up a paper. I think this was also sent to Liz Copyseek. So those of you on Liz Copyseek may well have already seen this. You might have read it yet. I have not read the paper yet. I've just had a quick scan through the abstract. Checking for your name, basically. Largely, yeah. Yeah, that is what I did. Yeah, see how many times I was cited in it. That's right. It's not once. No, it is. This is a thank you. Well, there's an acknowledgement. That's not the same as a citation, is it? No, it's not. Let's not. But it looks at lecture recording policies, not just in the UK, but it looks at Ireland and it looks at Italy and France, I think, as well. And compares universities sort of policies. But it does build on some earlier work. The question I did that sadly isn't cited. But we all learned that one. We never got that published in an actual. We've got it in the Times Higher. We've got the article in the Times Higher. Anyway, I think we probably need to move on because otherwise we're just wasting our time. OK, so without further ado, the main event is Confession's Time, isn't it? It feels like that needs a jingle. Maybe we can dub it in afterwards. Yeah. OK, are you introducing our speakers? No, I think you are. OK, OK, so we have two fantastic speakers. I'm hoping that they're prepared to talk in the order they're listed on the slide. So I'm thinking we're going to be going over to Evan first, if we can. Evan Dickerson, who is at Guildhall School of Music and Drama, did not have his arm twisted at all, I think, to want to come forward and talk about learning technologists' experience of copyright. Evan, I've got your slides. So I can get those up for you. You're going to do it, OK. But we're really looking forwards to hearing a bit about the experience you've had at other institutions as well. I know Guildhall School of Music and Drama, obviously. I'm really interested in the institution where, I'm sure copyright can come up in lots of ways, but you're going to be talking, I think, drawing on experience that you've got from working as a learning technologist for, you know, in other institutions too. So can you hear us, Evan? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Can you all hear me OK? I think so, yes. Thank you. Great. Take it away. Thanks very much. Fantastic. Well, thank you for having me along this morning to, you know, to kind of spill the beans from a learning technology perspective, really. As I've seen it and experienced it, I've been in the learning technology field for over 20 years now. Seems a lot longer, whether that's good or not. I don't know. But yeah, I thought I'd start with a disclaimer. Actually, the examples I'm going to discuss later on in this aren't actually from my current employer. I have been here for about six months now, but I've been through all of our, you know, noodle sites, et cetera. And I haven't found any to be honest with you, to be absolutely honest. Although in the last couple of weeks, I have had, you know, a flurry of inquiries relating to copyright in various ways. So I'm looking to, you know, create some guidance for staff and consult, you know, for staff to consult when they're creating and modifying their online course presidencies. I was chairing a meeting as well last week, which I recorded, and I immediately went back to the recording to write down that quote quite specifically around what one colleague shared their own practice and, you know, reflect on what, you know, some of our academics maybe are doing as professional musicians, but also reflecting on my own thoughts around copyright and my own knowledge and the need to go back, I think. And before I write that guidance, I said I'm going to do actually, you know, check my own knowledge and check what I think I'm going to put in there, but also refer as well to other sources that are out there. Another excellent work that you both have been doing, Chris and Jane, over the past few years, and, you know, be referring to that, no doubt. But it's quite interesting, I think, that, you know, I am seeing and hearing colleagues that are saying, yeah, maybe doing one thing as a practicing professional, but actually not wanting to do the same thing or pass that same approach on to their students, which is an interesting thing. So thinking about copyright breaches or potential breaches or debatable issues and things, you know, where have I encountered these in the past? And I think, you know, the list I've got here is a small one, but it's indicative of some of the most common areas that I've found in the VLE, obviously, Learning Management System, lecture capture, blogs, social media, and that interesting one that maybe a lot of people don't want to admit to sometimes is whistleblowing colleagues, and I've encountered a couple of examples of those over the years, one of which I'll share in a minute. But yeah, I think one of the interesting things from where I sit as a learning technologist, you know, currently being the only one at the school, but I've managed teams in the past is questions around copyright can come at you from a whole range of different places and different ways of getting to you, whether it's in, you know, training sessions or staff development sessions, raised in emails to you, you know, whether people just ping you up on teams or whatever it happens to be and go, you know, I want to put this set of resources online, you know, and you look at it and you think, oh, really? You know, there can be a whole range of ways in which things get to you, and I've been trying to remember actually, but I do recall a number of years ago, I was on the bus on the way home and somebody just kind of tapped me on the shoulder and said, oh, well, I see you. Yeah, can I just ask you about, you know, getting a resource online and what the implications might be? And I said, okay, there's a time and a place for this kind of, you know, query, but, you know, having to think about it, look at it and get back to people afterwards. So yeah, it's, you know, these things literally can come at you from any place, any time, anywhere, I guess. So it's things approaching you before the fact, and, you know, picking up on issues as they occur and, you know, maybe having to take retrospective action as well if things have happened that maybe shouldn't have happened as well. So my next slide then, some questions and conversations about copyright. These are quotes as far as I have them written down from various places over the years. You know, the misconceptions, I think, are still out there, aren't they? We can use anything from anywhere, right? If it's a result on a Google search and it's out there already, you know, who will even know or care? I must have heard that in many ways and variations over the years. People are just asking, you know, are there copyright restrictions? They don't seem to seem to be aware that there might be. Then the third one there, I'll freely use anything in order to teach. That's legit, you know, not even questioning the fact that it might not be. But I did find people have been downloading images and copying texts from my website and other online publications without my knowledge or permission. So when I asked how did that make them feel, it was like, oh, you know, I was very, you know, peed off about that. And, you know, the conversation went on from there really. And then the kind of hinting at the whistleblowing thing I've had a couple of times, you know, I shouldn't tell you, but look at what X has done. You know, report the individual. But why don't you? Oh, well, then there's the immediate rollback, which you sense in terms of, you know, once you put the owners on somebody else, they go, oh, is it really my place? How do you do that anyway? Look, maybe it's not that serious, you know, should we really take it that seriously? Did they intentionally do it? Yeah. And all of these things are serious things, I think, to take note of, because it does show that it is an issue out there. And it's probably just as prevalent now as it was, you know, 10, 15 years ago when I really started hearing a lot of this and kind of taking it on and looking at it seriously. So all of those kind of comments have led me in the past and I'll probably be offering a similar kind of training at my current institution in the future to develop and offer in-house training within various universities that I've been employed. You know, looking at face-to-face sessions or virtual sessions now that would be probably with academics and researchers, giving a kind of overview of copyright law, exceptions to copyright for lecture teaching, looking at and debating and, you know, what things like illustration for instruction might mean or fair use might mean, looking at issues around copyright and lecture recording, what could happen if copyright is infringed in terms of the licenses, you know, that are relevant to the institution where we've got subscriptions to things, what's out there, overviews of Creative Commons, you know, Google Advanced Searching, et cetera. And in the past, I've tried to include some activity and discussion using examples of breaches or potential breaches that I've found as a means of kind of, you know, getting people to think about it and not actually to passively just kind of walk them through what the copyright law might say, but actually what it might mean in practice, you know, for them to reflect on their own practice and think, you know, what were they planning to do, you know, what might be the steps there that they might need to rethink. And I should say, I've always taken the stance that now academics were named and shamed, but of course, colleagues couldn't resist guessing who they were. Always seems to be a kind of lovely game they want to play, but, you know, anonymity rules and I'm not going to reveal anything in terms of institutions or places or people in the examples I'll discuss. So the quote there at the top, stop being difficult and just put it on the veerly for me. You know, I must have had that many times over the years from various academics in various ways for various reasons. But, you know, maybe as a learning technologist, we do need to kind of have a weather eye in terms of what's representing, you know, the institution online, particularly if, you know, you're the person with responsibility for that platform and that technology and the contents of it. So, University A, a request to digitize an entire book, a core reference material for a module and put the scanned copy on the veerly. Chisor refused to accept that this breached copyright. They saw student access to material as the primary concern, as the primary reason. Scanned copy, you know, the lecturer ended up scanning a copy himself and sought colleagues from help, you know, to get it online. And library colleagues at the time were involved with me in terms of taking it down and then kind of, you know, really kind of going back to them and going, this just is not acceptable practice, you know, and saying what they could do and, you know, working with them on that. University B, an electronic copy of academic study resource found on the veerly purchased under an individual use license and shared incorrectly. Publisher found out and sent a lawyer's letter requesting removal, that was an instance and it was removed within the time because there's clearly no reason why it should have been shared in the way it was. One that gets me quite often is University C example of screenshots of citation styles in academic study sessions being included in lecture slides, but actually where those printed sources were taken from wasn't actually referenced. So yeah, people not doing what they should, not practicing what they should be practicing when actually, you know, teaching students. And of course, I think, you know, since lecture capture systems have come in more widely and they're much more widespread than they used to be, you know, it is a way of capturing and maybe learning technologists now see a lot more of the kind of under the radar practice if we, you know, have to, you know, kind of edit the recordings or look through things and, you know, before we put them up on the VLE, sometimes there's a, you know, 24 hour lag in some institutions. I know in terms of lecture recordings being captured, maybe edited slightly, you know, or tidied up before they're going on the VLE, but I think there is a wide variety of practice that's quite often captured there. So photos of patient, you know, medical patient notes being used without being anonymized or redacted in any way, certainly breaches patient confidentiality. There's something there that I think, you know, you need to be aware of. Photos being taken, you know, just literally academics taking photos of a TV screen, identifying the broadcaster where that happens, you know, that's not good, is it? That really is not good. And that, you know, happened quite a bit. Yeah, and also just kind of other things in terms of copyright sources, you know, plainly used for illustration rather than active, you know, teaching around a specific point. So the family guy incident, I remember, was, you know, a lecture on, you know, knee injuries and one of the characters in the cartoon that being captured as a still clutching his knee when he'd fallen over on a pavement or whatever it might be. So clearly not good, not cited and not knowledge in any way. University Y, I think, is an interesting one. You know, high resolution downloads of artworks from museums or galleries used where they could have linked to the source, no citation of sources, you know, that's quite a difficult thing potentially. You've potentially got issues there with the museum or the gallery and, you know, and even the artist themselves potentially, I think. And it's quite interesting to reflect, I think on the last example there, that it's not just in terms of teaching, but it's also potentially in terms of assessment practice and, you know, the kind of guidance that's given, but also how it is or isn't picked up on within examples of feedback to students. So I think, you know, all the way through the student learning and assessment journey, you know, there are opportunities to bring up and to surface conversations around copyright and it's placed within, you know, the whole cycle of what we do. And I think it's a question of us as learning technologists being in a position, maybe, particularly in small specialist institutions to be willing and open and available to have those conversations, even though they might be quite difficult at times with colleagues to make sure that this is something that is not just a one hit, but I think it's something that we've got to continually do. It's, you know, it's an ongoing piece of work, you know, particularly where we get, you know, new staff coming in who maybe hadn't lectured before or hadn't talked for quite some time, you know, it's one of those things that needs to be surfaced and needs to be made part of the daily conversation of what it means to be, you know, an academic in today's environment. So, yeah, that's what I had to say, just to give a few examples there. And I just wondered if, you know, there's any comments or questions or observations that you've got at this point? Thank you, Evan, that's fantastic. Really good insight there. Some really excellent examples. I know we've had some comments there. I think what we would like to do is if we can have sort of questions for all speakers at the end, unless there are anything we look in the chat coming through as a sort of burning immediate thing, I think what we would do is we'll hand over to Richard and then we'll kind of pose questions to both of you to see how we can reflect on your different perspectives. But thank you, that was brilliant. Yeah, thanks very much. Excellent, yeah. So we're now going to get Richard, Richard slides up. There we go. So I know we've been saying Confessions of a Learning Technologist and in fact there are two learning technologists, strictly speaking, Richard, you are actually a lecturer in higher education practice. And whilst heavily involved in learning technology in the same way that Jane is, and what did you say the difference was? The educational developer in technology just kind of comes in and comes up with great ideas and then leaves it to the learning technologist to actually do all the hard work. Is that it? It sounds a bit great, doesn't it? Oh, no, you didn't say that. Sorry, I just forget what I just said. But we can talk about that, Richard. Yeah, so Richard is a lecturer in actually practice in Centre for Higher Education Research and a practice at Ulster University, teaches on the first steps to teaching and Masters of Education. So active learning is your thing and I think what you're going to be taking us through is some things using digital storytelling. So over to you, Richard. Yeah, thanks very much. Thanks, Christian, Jane. And thanks, Evan. It's funny, there's a lot of overlap between what you were saying and what I'm going to cover, which is good in some ways and bad in others. But yes, so this image, this is a slide from a Ray Harryhausen film, Jason and the Orgonauts. And for me, this is the best way that I can illustrate how I feel when I come to copyrighting digital storytelling. Every time I cut off a head, there's another one and the challenge is that comes. So I'll start, I'll start going through my slides. So you might wonder at this point, who I am, I'm not in this photograph. So don't try to find me. I'm an extra in higher education practice, as Kristin, Jane said. But I'm not just that. I come from a learning technology background. I worked on a role probably very similar to Jane's for 10 years. And I was a new learning developer as well. And I created medical illustrations, animations, videos, interactive learning objects. I studied art and design at art college. Went on to do the green visual communication that went and worked in design agencies throughout Belfast as a graphic designer and web designer. That's what I was before I got into the education set of things. But I think the context of who I am kind of helps with the whole copyright issue. I, if I go back about probably about 10 years ago, I used to create illustrations, as I said, for online business courses. And there was one academic came to me one day and handed me a book and says, I want you to redraw the 60 illustrations in that so I can use it in my course. I said, no to him. I can't do that. That's breaking copyright laws, intellectual property belongs to somebody else. So this escalated up and then, as you can imagine, it was sort of, he wasn't allowed to do it and I did different things, but I think it ties into some of the things I haven't said. So I'll just leave that there and I'll go on to who my students are. Most of my students would be staff, whether it's academic staff or professional support staff. But I also teach at undergraduate level and post-grad level in hospital management and communications and marketing and I do digital storytelling with them and I haven't mentioned about the assessment set of things. I've brought digital storytelling into the assessments. So that's some of the corporate issues come out through that. I'll get to that later. But other aspects which are probably challenging is the staff aspect. So we've got some depending on where I'm teaching. Some staff would be more experienced, been there for a while, some are new. So the whole corporate set of things when it comes to digital storytelling can get to be complex. So when I talk about digital storytelling, I suppose it means a lot of different things to different people, but in my context, I think it was about seven or eight years ago, I was at a JISC event and a colleague at JISC, Chris Thompson, don't know if you know Chris Thompson, was doing a session and sharing his practice around digital storytelling and I thought, wow, what am I a background and stuff? I could really bring that back to Ulster and enhance staff through staff development opportunities. So I did start doing workshops, run workshops, around storyboard and scripting, video production, audio recording and sourcing images and Creative Commons is the method that I encourage staff to use rather than just grabbing things off the web or use Creative Commons license to bring that through. And really, this is where I started fighting the hydra. I'll get to the issues that come up constantly whenever I do this, when it's some of the ones that Evan wrote earlier. But I think as I started bringing that away from the staff development workshop opportunities and as my role developed and I brought in as an assessment in my modules, getting staff to get digital stories and students as well. That's when I really had to make it sink in hard with them for two reasons. Obviously, if they're going to use digital storytelling with their students, staff, and that is they need to make sure that they're doing things properly, setting things properly and referencing things properly. But when I'm working with students who are undergrads, when they go out to work, particularly the hospitality management students, they go out to work in industry. They have to be able to do things appropriately so they don't end up getting in the hot water around that. So, my confession, but before I get to my confession, there's not a wonderful image. I don't know where this is, but I would love to go and see this. This is just absolutely fantastic. So my confession is probably hiding inside and you probably identified this at this point. I am not a copyright expert at all. I don't try to pretend to be. And that's probably why I've kind of honed on to the Creative Commons license, because that's a safe place for me. This is the image you use. You can find them on Creative Commons Search. Use these images. And that is probably down to my background as a graphic designer. Because I couldn't use those sort of images. I couldn't find images. I couldn't use it in my work. I had to make sure that it was my work. Otherwise, the companies I was working with, whether it was Coca-Cola at the time, or Magners, whoever it was, BBC, they could end up getting sued if I didn't do things right. So I'm very cautious around it. And I'll welcome and open any kind of feedback or any pointers I can get going forward with this, because we're really, really open. See if I can enhance my practice through this. But if I go on just to the library, and this isn't our library, but any stretch of the imagination. This image kind of fitted in the water was trying to get across here. Our library, our fantastic resource for helping to get academic resources put on the VLE, following the CLA guidelines, all that sort of stuff. But when it comes to digital storytelling, if I go through and one thing it didn't cover actually and what is digital story, the actual what it is, sorry, I skipped over that, it's a video. Digital stories video is about two and a half minutes long. It uses images with a voiceover, okay? There's an example. Actually, I post, don't go to it yet, because I don't use the go and I'll post it in the chat. There's an example of one of the first ones I did a few years ago. You can see what it is. Don't click on it now, you can watch that later. You've got two minutes to spare. So digital story is all about images, voiceover, going through. And each digital story would have 30 to 50 images in it. And this semester, sort of this semester, we'll ask semester one, there's around 70 staff and students have followed and done my workshops, created assessments, which then multiply that up. It's remained 2,100 images to 3,500. So they're asking the library to help sort of find it and resource and different things. It's crazy and bonkers. We also have a policy copyright policy also, which isn't similar to other institutions, which is there and it's there to follow, but it's possibly not as helpful as it could be when you're trying to actually do things. But anyway, I'll go on. Great. So issues, the sticky issues, the things that come up. Furious. Our fur dealers, I think it was referred to earlier. This is the complete life of me. I'm honest. I just don't understand it. I think it's fuzzy. I think it's woolly. I'll open to be educated on this. I just stay away from it. Because to me, there's a blurry line in higher education, depending on what you're doing, whether something is able to be used in certain ways. Cost of licensing images. So if there's one image, I worked with an academic in photography about 10 years ago and he wanted a specific photograph used and a learning object was built. So I sourced that, I got that. It was £500 to be used for, I think, for the year. And then I had to be taken down. So the cost of it is quite high if you were going to go down and do that. Creative Commons obviously helps, but obviously academics say, I want to use this image. I can only use this image because the photographer lecturer would only actually want to talk about that image. It was pretty pointless for a different image in Creative Commons. It just wouldn't fit in. Staff and students. Evan said this. I found it on Google, so I can use it. Or the videos on YouTube, I can use it. Some of the students that I worked with recently had video footage that they downloaded from YouTube and then cited it. So they did cite it, but they didn't have the right to use it. So those sort of things, even though they were covered in the content or pointed about how you create Commons, and also music, they go and grab soundtracks from published artists and insert that as well. And again, that could be an issue for whenever they go to work in the industry, but obviously it's an issue within the institution of our academics are then using those in their lectures. Acknowledging Creative Commons. Some of them don't acknowledge it. Just use Creative Commons images, but then they don't understand that depending on what license it is, you have to use it. And even if it's under a license that would be under the public domain, I still encourage them to reference it. And all images I've used in here are under public domain. I'm from Pixie Bay, and I reference them at the end. For one, it's acknowledging where you got them from, but two, you know where you got them from, so if you want to use them again, you can get them, or share them, or whatever. They also don't really understand what you're ever doing. So they don't really understand what you're doing. They don't really understand what you're doing. They also don't really understand no derivatives. So you can't change something. You can't put text over it. You can't crop it in. You can't do different things. They just don't get that. They think, I can just use it for whatever. And share it like, yes, I share it like, they don't realize that if I put just something in, they'll have to share it if it's under that license. So I think those are the main crux of the issues that I have currently. And I put that in feedback when it's in a marked assignment. I put that in. It's actually in the assessment criteria to use good of commons in the appropriate way. So they get certain, they don't get marked as highly if they don't follow it properly. And hopefully that going forward will help address some of the issues. But as I said, I'm not an expert in any way. And I risk averse to some extent when it comes to copyright. So I'm more than happy to learn from all of you guys to do things better from my perspective. Do we have any questions at this point? I think I've probably gone a bit quicker than I thought I would. But anyway, and there's the image. Richard, thank you so much. That was, that was brilliant. Fantastic. Really, really interesting and great. Yes, those images were fantastic. I think the first question, obviously I'll let someone's share a lot, the essay, a terminology check, a share alike component of the Creative Commons license, which means if a derivative version is created, then it must be shared under the same or equivalent license. So that is what Wikipedia use the CC attribution share alike CC BYSA in order to ensure that people can't take content from Wikipedia and then put a proprietary license around it and stop it from being open and licensed on a similar basis. My question actually is, for both Evan and Richard, in looking at the different approaches that you took to your presentations today, both of which were fantastic, but I know that one of the issues that you were both talking about was that decision when you are teaching of how much you have sort of rich media content you put in there or how much you want to stick it back to the simplicity thing of concepts and text. And the extent to which you think personally yourselves or with the teaching stuff that you work with, how much of that decision is driven by copyright concerns. I mean, do you think that in some way that copyright law actually stops people from taking more of a creative and perhaps even humorous and playful approach to the way in which they do their teaching? Personally, I don't. I think I would always encourage people that it allows you to be more creative because you have to think of your things differently. I think of an example I give from the photography example that would stay for that because if you want to talk about a specific photograph that has a specific thing that's linked to the learning outcomes of the module or the course indeed, you need that photograph. And if you don't have the budget to spend the five hundred and one photograph for that year, then that would stay for that. You can't just make that up. It's just impossible. Okay, thanks. Evan, did you have thoughts on that? Yeah. Richard's credit slide because Philippa asked if we could put that up again. Philippa will share these as well, the slides afterwards. They'll go up on the website so you can see it again. Sorry, Evan. No worries. I agree actually. I try and encourage people to take a more creative approach and having that conversation with academics and it's all about having that good relationship with them really, I think, in terms of helping them to think around the barriers they hit. Yeah. Understanding what that is and then going, well, yeah, this is still what I want to achieve because this fits in with my module or it's part of an overall learning arc that they're creating for their students to get from beginning of the module to the end and the assessment and everything. But if something they see is vital, is not technically or possible within copyright legislation, what else could they do? How could they have an alternative approach to but might take them on a slightly different journey to get to the end result but would enable it to happen nonetheless. I think one of the things I'm just reflecting on, I used to run a session when I was in my previous job with one of the learning technologists on using images in teaching and we kind of did a bit of a mix of using images and why images were good for learning and helping with sort of, you know, retention and keeping students engagement. We did a bit about the technicalities of it as well and then we did a little bit about copyright but I think a lot of that work sort of, and that was then a really good opportunity to talk about creative commons. But a lot of those workshops I was doing was pre the sort of changes to the law and so I didn't generally speak about fair dealing and when you could use images because they were really central to your teaching you know, and you know I was just looking at the comment that I think John has just put in the chat as well about using fair dealing more often and thinking about the questions that you ask yourself about whether there's a case for using it whether you have to use it whether you're only using the required amount and whether it affects the market and I know photographers have quite strong feelings about that. I also popped into the chat Richard, I don't know if you'd heard about this sort of issue around when sometimes it goes wrong when you're using creative commons images we had a really good workshop over the summer about some of what is kind of called copyright trolling that's been done where images are up on flicker with CC licenses on but have got a very specific type of license, a 2.0 license that then means they have to be credited in a particular way and we've had lots of universities who have demands for license fees because they say these are not being credited in the right way one of the journalism lecturers had this happen to some of his students when they were doing blogging so it's kind of sometimes you try to do all the right things aren't you and it's really easy to get mixed up and confused and get it wrong. Yes I think we'll return to the right wrong thing I think later there's a question from Katie here about Evan do you have any other examples of issues particularly with teachers and students using music without infringing copyright we know music is can be a slightly tricky area Yeah I've had conversations with people started to have conversations with a couple of people about it but I haven't got actually any examples of where they've taken it further yet. I've only been here for a few months so I'm still finding my way around the place but it is something I think I will need to be aware of I think what Claire did well on the call as well so maybe you might want to have a chat with her at some point she's probably in lots of those things over the years not that I'm saying you've been around for a long time Claire come as long as me The thing I wanted to return to about right and wrong and I think we've referred to the fact that when we're talking about fair dealing and copyright exceptions some of these things can be woolly so in fact it's not always clear whether something acceptable or isn't acceptable I know that Philippa asked to see Richard your statement and your slide I actually think this is an area where we could work on as a community I think I've said this for quite some time because actually I think sometimes we take quite a cautious approach I think it's important as well to ensure that what we do reflect the UK law I think some of the stuff that you found there Richard is referring to US law because the durations work differently and I would actually say you said Richard you're a bit wary of fair dealing I would say fair dealing is something you use all the time and when you're putting content in there and also Evan you're referring to say the family guy picture in a slide if that is illustrating a point if that is actually making a add to the pedagogy games of the teaching and it's properly referenced and credited I personally say well that's where illustration for instruction I'm safe personally, not just me I think there's generally that's a feeling that we've been talking about quite a lot and how we interpret those particular provisions in the law and I think sometimes it helps to have those slightly wooly ideas scaffolded a bit by coming up with things that we all feel are kind of accurate wording about how we communicate them that example was just still used on the title slide of a lecture for the whole lecture and it wasn't credited and it wasn't referenced so I think that's where often people do come on stuff and I often I like if you go on Splash and obviously they've got quite a lot of images still that CC zero but then they do when you're downloading an image there you want to credit and it gives you such an easy way of doing it and I've often thought that they call it this kind of nudge technologies, things that make it really easy to do the right thing I'm talking about writing one again but things that make it really easy to do something like attribution because it is fiddly you know I'm sometimes I go back through slides and I'm taking slides from here there and everywhere and I've got a quote and then I realise that my references at the end haven't actually I've quoted somebody and I've put a citation on but I haven't got the full reference in the slides at the end and you know we're all quite busy some of us it is when you're teaching and you're putting materials together you are often doing it really in a minute and so it's often after the occasion that you realise or you're going to go to a conference or do something else with it I think that's certainly when I found lecturers used to ask copyright questions when later after they've done things and Diane's just mentioned illustration for instruction but it could be quotation as well and that's perhaps one of the things that is confusing is there's no one single provision in the law in fact there's a number of them that kind of cluster together that you can rely on more than one at the same time I think we might have time for one more question do we have any more questions I think Richard you've got a link there to your active learning yes shameless plug time absolutely yeah yeah and maybe it's something we could think about working together on an event I think some of the old communities there's an obvious overlap between us and the open education group but active learning and copyright well yeah we like that sort of thing let's keep the conversation going I don't think I see any more questions people saying thank you very much if either Evan Richard did you have any last thoughts or comments if not no worries last thought from me I guess is that whole area of how educational development works with learning technology and again that can be a bit of a blurred line depending on the institution the size of the place the number of different places you've got people in post certainly where I am at the minute I'm having to be both of those functions hopefully not for much longer but we'll see yeah definitely collaboration is the name of the game isn't it I think having a absolutely and actually Chris and I went to the CEDA conference the educational development conference to talk there about copyright because I think we've got a bit of a sense that learning technologies do know quite a bit about copyright educational developers maybe less so yeah yeah but if we can just thank you both very much there's some really nice comments coming up in the chat people have found it really helpful and you know really appreciated you giving up the time today so thanks thanks very much big round of applause for Richard and Evan and stay in touch I think we're just going to go over to our final slide Chris yeah so we've talked about fair dealing week so all the conversations we've been having we'll be having them again we'll be looking some examples there are going to be a number of events we'll be previewing them the Friday before so actually we haven't got the date in there it's going to be 18 February the 18th put it in your diary 11am next webinar we'll focus a bit on what's coming up in fair dealing week so we've got the launch event we've got the scale event we've got some other ones there will be an event at the University of Kent online these all are but about creative reuse and we'll involve some things about how we teach copyright there and yeah and I think look out as well because the learning technology and libraries group of the Bloomsbury learning consortium are putting together an event as well which I think will be open to other guests as they want to come but everything will go up hopefully next week on our blog post about that and then we've got the TBC for the intellectual property advice for art students actually it's going to be March I think we've got a date haven't we so we need to get that out we will let you know we'll update the schedule that's going to be Roxanne Peters from University of Arts London who is incredible yes that's going to be great we're really looking forward to that we're waiting for the intellectual property office to tell us come back to us on their framework and you know we've got always yeah looking for updates or topics that you want us to cover things that we should revisit from whatever just let us know we are set to carry on doing these until the end of time itself it would seem or as long as everybody keeps turning up right okay let's move on to the final one final last thing you talked to us about this it's a parody I just you know I always try to find something that's amusing and that's a bit of politics politics yeah as anyone place the cheese and wine this is not a party Chris I know you're having a good time is it actually what about the cake has anyone seen this is doing the rounds it's been in the Guardian I'm sure you've all seen the Line of Duty interview AC10 interview in Boris Johnson and if you haven't then it's yes it's very amusing John Still hasn't figured out how they've done it they've sort of they have spliced him into it in various shops haven't they but it is clever it's really clever and yeah of course it's covered by a copyright exception what they've done because they didn't get permission and then I think the producer Jed McCurry came back and said he liked it and he added something to it as well but yeah parody it's an amazing exception parody caricature and pastiche maybe we'll do a whole dedicated session on parody caricature pastiche and it's association with learning because that came up isn't it I'm going to stop sharing now we're going to stop the recording yeah can you do that I can do that you can do that