 On behalf of Leftford Books, we welcome you to this conversation between Nihal Ahmad and Komita Adhanda. Like most of you know, Leftford Books is an independent publishing house located in Shadipur, New Delhi. And we are delighted to share with you that Nihal's first book and a Leftwood publication, Nothing Will Be Forgotten, has received the prestigious Muzaffar Ahmad Memorial Award for 2022. Nihal Ahmad is our author and he's a doctoral student at the Academy of International Studies, Jamia Milla Islamia. And his research in trusts consists of Indian and world cinema as well as migration studies. Komita, a dear friend and comrade, has been working as an actor, director, writer and organizer with Jan Natya Manch, a Delhi based theater group. Komita has also studied in Jamia and she's also taught at the Leedy Urban College University of Delhi. And currently she's pursuing her PhD research in theater and performance studies at the School of Art and Aesthetics, Jabal Har Nehru University. Welcome guys and now over to you, Komita. Thank you. Thank you Vinny and thank you Leftward for giving me this opportunity to talk to Nihal about his book. The book has a very special connection with me also because it foregrounded how I looked at Jamia when I was a student several years ago and since 2019, how or in fact before that as Nihal also mentions in the book has changed, responding to the current times. So I'm very glad and I'm very delighted, excited to have this short conversation with Nihal. As Vinny also said that the book Nothing Will Be Forgotten is published by Leftward Books and this is Nihal's first book that, which is a kind of a first person account of the students protest that took place in Jamia Miliya Islamiya in 2019 against the Citizenship Amendment Act. And it has won this prestigious award as well. So Nihal, I'm actually going to keep it in a more conversational manner. I have read the book and it's quite inspiring in several ways. So I was thinking when I was reading the book that when the protest emerged in Jamia, there were several viral videos. There were many people who were writing articles, articles we saw in mainstream media, alternative media, activists were writing about it, experts were writing about it, that what was going on in the university. So to begin with, can you please tell us our audience that what was the impulse behind writing your own experience, being part of those protests and later transforming it into a book. So was it like a catharsis for you at that time or why did you think that you need to put it in black and white, what were you going through and other students were going through? First of all, I would like to thank everyone, left-foot, Komita, Vinny, Purbasha for having me here. And I think you, a question you asked, I think you answered also that why I wrote this book. So basically a two major thing which I believe and that's why I wrote the book. Of course, one is catharsis that I am a kind of not a very active person was not on the front stage. I was a kind of observer there. I'm a very good observer since like everywhere, not in political situation in every situation. So I was observing things and I was part of that I was seen and sometimes participating also. But when I saw all those news clips, all those media houses, all those coloring, basically coloring Jamiya into a very bad light, somewhere I felt like no, I should write it. And I saw many books are coming, books were coming that time and nobody's from Jamiya who wrote that book. So there was an urge in me that I should write, which is the fact I have seen. I'm not going to tell you the right and wrong or this side or that side, but I'll write what I have seen. That was the first thing I bought, though I was not having any idea of writing. I was not having any confidence of writing, not any good experience of writing, but that urge make me write. The second thing was catharsis. When I saw things were going into very bad way and a very petty situation was very pitiful. And somewhere that was haunting me and I felt like to pour it out because as I said, I was not confident enough to write a book. I might be able to write a small article or something about what I feel. But that feeling, that awfulness in me when I saw my university in that situation, I felt like right to just to pour it out also because that was COVID time, we were all stuck at home. So I think both the things were very true, the reason behind my writing. So I was thinking that how much time did you take to write this book? And when you were writing, obviously in 2020 COVID had come and when you started writing, you must have had some memories that were distinctively in your mind. But some memories also, you know, memories tend to fade also. So when you were actually, because I see in your book that you are describing each event date by date, sometimes even time of the day, sometimes that who was there, you know, who was the policeman, who was the student. Although you have changed, you write also in the end that for their safety, you have also changed the names. But you know, so how did you kind of come to writing such a precise account? What you have seen as you are saying, and how long did it take you to first reach the decision that I have to write and then you started writing it? Basically, my friend told me that I have, like she keeps telling me that I have an elephant memory. So I remember things very clearly, very minutely. And that I think that is the very USP of my writing. That's why this book has been possible because testimonial need things which you have seen like a very minute detail. So I just in March, my like lockdown started and I was at home and I started writing it and it finished in three months only. I guess the idea of this book, basically people asked me that because I'm not aware with any genre, any very specification of all this genre of the book. So people asked me that you should write like that, write like this and add like this, read this, but I refuse to do that because I only believe that I'll write only that thing which I have seen, which I have seen and because I'm a person who was part of that on like one person in the crowd. I was not in any leading position. So whatever I observed, I just put it out. So people asked me that if you are writing such things and you do not have any authority, you are not in any position. So nobody will publish it also. So you have to make it either academy, make it something, someone's statement, something like that. So I refuse to do that and I believe that when I was writing, even if it's not published, I'll keep it for myself and I'll read it. So I think that was the whole idea of writing such piece. And I think when I followed this pattern, later people told me, okay, this is your writing style, this is your genre. So when I started this, I was not having any idea. Later people, my teacher told me it's a testimonial writing. So I was just writing what I believe, what I have seen or in a way, as I said, I was doing catharsis. I was just pouring it down to relieve myself. And then this come up. So were you worried a little bit about when it will be published and when Leftward said that okay, we'll publish it. And Leftward is known for publishing these things. Fortunately, we do have a publication house like that. Were you worried about that there will be a backlash from definitely from the fringes of the right wing or the right wing, but also from other eyewitnesses, as your friends were saying that this could be your memory and not other people's memory. Were you a little worried about those things? Yeah, of course. I was worried and luckily nothing like post-book, I didn't get anything like that. And two things I was worried, like some fringe group might come and say that this is right and wrong or whatever. And that was very much expected and I was not worried at all for that. I was clearly waiting, but that couldn't happen. Luckily, second thing, like someone might contest my memory that okay, you have seen this, but this is not my memory. And yeah, people ask me that you didn't mention this thing, you didn't mention that thing. So I keep telling that this book is mean that protest, not about completely about that protest. So whatever I'm seeing, wherever I'm going, I did that. And to answer that, like to contest the memory of people, of course, it is a kind of people might not agree with my memory because they have seen something very different. And I have encountered with something very different. Like, even when I was doing the editing part, my friend was sitting with me. So even he does not agree with me. He said, no, I haven't seen this and I didn't feel that. So I completely agree that it is my memory and it might be different from other people. Lots of people disagree with me. Lots of people I heard that they keep saying that okay, this is not the very right narrative or right presentation of the whole event. So I think this is very healthy for me that people disagree to my work. And I always encourage that if you feel that this is not the right thing or not right representation. So I agree that there might be mistakes or there are mistakes. There's not a question of mine. But I also want people to write. If you feel that this narrative is not proper, so one should come out and write it something else. So it would be great. It could become rich in the sense of literature and then the narrative and the history of this movement. So you know like many people who were critical of the protests and they were claiming that these protests are held only by the Muslims in the community. But we know that that was not true. There were many people from outside the Muslim community, outside Jamia as you are also mentioning and we have witnessed it ourselves also. Going to these protests, people were coming to perform. They held langars and helping in whichever manner and they were not all of them were from the Muslim community. So these were the narratives which were floated by the mainstream media and the right wing. Basically with the idea that they wanted to polarize the citizens of Delhi. So in the context of your book, how do you sort of differentiate these protests as an act of politicization versus the act of polarization? How do you kind of see these two things in the context of what you are writing? I think this situation, the question you asked is can't be fit into black and white because both the things were there. There was a polarization also and mainstream media and the things which is in the discourse basically the people who are in the discourse, the powerful discourse was heavily trying to polarize this and still they are telling and even many of people when I travel I meet and they ask that I'm from the university and they keep saying this problem, that problem. So that polarization was there and still there but as you asked the other factor of the protest that people were coming together and many like because it's of course lead by Muslims, majority of the people are Muslim because it's a Muslim issue and all but there are other people also, other community people are also and I don't think so any protest, any movement will be such vibrant with a singular community or one type of people or people from one community or one past. So I think the involvement of the students, the involvement of the graffiti maker, the involvement of the person who is the electrician because there was one electrician also. So one cannot restrict and it's not possible even to imagine such huge movement with people of certain community or a particular singular community. So I completely disagree and there were people from every community and they were basically, I have seen a person who was holding a Bible. So I asked him why you're holding a Bible that come without Bible also that if you're showing the solidarity. So he said no I wanted to assert my identity, what I am and why I'm here. So such things were there, the lunges were there, the farmers came there and they stayed there for few days. So I think it was polarization was there and I think that is the power of that protest that despite being polarized so much by mainstream media this plurality helped to sustain this plurality helped to grow. So you know a question that was coming to my mind again and again and it does not mean that it is only through books. But you are writing in your book that before this protest in 2019 Palestine and Israel were also protesting in Jamia. In fact that was kind of the beginning of the politicization of the students community. And I was remembering that when I was in Jamia some 15, 17 years ago, you know we used to talk among ourselves and with some of our teachers that politics was not there in Jamia, students politics because elections were not there, students organizations were not active, nothing was there. And now we see from the last 4-5 years that a new energy has come into it. So and these protests have been there, whether it was anti-CA protests, whether it was the protests of Palestine and Israel over the issue of Jamia students which are not directly students own demands, it's not a demand like a hostel, you know it's not a demand which directly concerns the student community. So what according to you is the importance of students movement in the larger fight for democracy and people's rights? I think India have seen, in fact Jamia is part of a movement, the birth of Jamia is part of national movement. You mention it in your book also. Because Aligarh was majorly supported by British and then Gandhi ji have this idea that there should be an university which shouldn't be part of that, that like students shouldn't be part of that institution, so we should have our own institution. So basically Jamia started in Aligarh initially, later it got shifted to Delhi. So I think student is one community, I think they have, when they reach to university, first thing which I believe that they have time and because they don't have to do the 9-5 job, and there is a sensitization. When you come to university, there is some sort of sensitization and you realize that this is the wrong and after realizing that you have a time to do something for that, you have the time to change something and that stage, you believe that you can change because you have things around you which have kind of support, kind of organizational support, kind of a structure. So student, I think student community is a community which always in I think many of the movement they come forward and they participate across globe. And I believe that it's not about movement, it's not about political party or I think every person should have that intuition that if something is going on or if something is not right, one should speak for it. So I think that need is very much there in our society, regardless of caste, gender, religion and race. So I think but student community is kind of organized that you need a platform also. So I think that is why it's very important that student community come out and because an individual also wanted to do but without platform sometime it doesn't work. So in that sense I think it should be there student should come out and they talk things or basically they negotiate more in organized manner than others. So I think that should be there. Nihal in your book, I mean for me when I was reading the book you know it has two very distinctive parts and those parts are actually not divided into two parts but they are interminkled. So they are interspersed with each other. So on one hand your book tells us the story which are really gut wrenching narratives about those dreadful nights in December 2019. What happened in Jamia and what was happening you know and how Shaheen Bagh became the site of protest and a symbol of protest and then the whole Delhi was kind of testing and attack on the students community. But while we are you know as a reader I was engaged with those narratives that what actually happened. I also as a reader came across poetry of Sahir, Pash, Madhu and you know even somebody like John Alia and all your chapters begin with these poems. So we see actually two juxtaposed images you know for example of this protest which is political but also cultural you know the image of the library. So one image of the library is where police is attacking the students or asking them forcefully to march outside the library. And on the other side we see Savitri by Phule and Fatima Sheikh library which was set up at Shaheen Bagh. So in a way your book tries to capture this language of protest which was political and cultural. So could you also how do you see the impact of this changing language of protest in the coming you know in the coming days but also in the current times in the context of your book. As I said that students are more organized than any other group and I think they have that platform, for example, we have a student of finance also we have a student of architecture also. So, so we have resource students have resources basically and that political culture is there that that the political language was there somewhere whether it is it is form of protest whether it's in JNU whether it is in Kerala and in Jadavpuri. So that that political culture we have seen and student know that and especially after social media. And you are also studying all those things how to shoot a film in mass com how to make a graffiti in finance department. So, when we when we got that space when when student got that space to protest. So, usually what people doing protest that they do the stage they give the lecture they talk about right and wrong and all. But many students were there. Their creativity is there. So they come out and and because this protest was not something organized not by some set of people. So, so everybody was free to do whatever they want or contribute or not to participate or to study many people are just studying in the library. They were not. They don't have anything about it. So, when students come out, they started contributing in whatever ways they want. And so some people come out and do the so whatever they know they started doing for example, gravity making singing dancing theater performance kind of concert and many things were there. So, I think this this change of political culture is is is because of of I think media is one of the very important things. And I think this political culture, which Jamia or the students of Jamia has been popularized is very important because it has been followed after because it was there it's all this culture was there but but it was restricted to some place some university some city some some something like that but what Jamia did Jamia brought it out on the road. Jamia the students of Jamia brought it out on the road and in a way they make it public that anybody can use it anybody. So, so I think before that I haven't seen anywhere that people are writing their demand on the on the on the wall and they were writing but but with such beautiful poetry with such beautiful graffiti is such beautiful portrait. So I think I think that was a kind of contribution I can say that Jamia did. And later it was followed in Farmer's March also. And all these slogans and songs which has been used and many songs resurfaced also that which has written 50 or 60 years back. I think this political culture will will will flourish I guess because it one more thing is very important that it give like people opportunity to participate because on stage there's only one person who's speaking. The rest are not participating they're just standing listening and kind of that kind of boring and especially for such long protest that you can't listen how much you listen same thing will be repeated. So, people need to participate and I think that is the power of that protest that people there was a space for people to participate. So I think that is very important. I am also very I'm that's actually a question that I'm very interested and curious about personally. You mentioned in your book quite a few times about your grandfather and you know the conversations or you mentioned your family more than once in the book and the kind of atmosphere you had. And this also happened in Jamia when we saw that women came down the road. And as you also said and we know that one community was leading it but different types of women. And such women who had never come out of their homes, they were sitting on the road with their children and they were sitting there all night. So, we used to talk often with our friends that whenever these protests would end, at that time we didn't know when it would end. But whenever these protests would end and when these women would go back to their homes, then their family relationships wouldn't be like that. Because now they have taken steps outside of Delhi. They know that this is possible. And they have taken steps with their own outside concerns. So, I wanted to know how did women in your family because you mentioned your family more than once in the book. What was the reaction of those people? Seeing these protests, what were the conversations with them? What kind of conversations were there between women in your family, in the immediate family? If you could tell us a little bit. One thing that happened during COVID-19 was that there was a lot of break. There was a momentum, there was a politicization of understanding that COVID-19 broke. Then people started talking about whether they would be saved or not. We wouldn't be able to meet them again. But in the beginning, people didn't know that my family was there. I come from a pure middle-class family, I am related to them. Those who were in other cities also used to ask me because Jamia was the epicenter. So, they used to ask me what was going on. I mean, they didn't even know if they had to go or not. This was a big question. So, in the beginning, they didn't even understand what was going on. So, there was a very good politicization. There was a shine mark exception. There were a lot of different people there. There were a lot of people in other cities. There were a lot of people who never went to the inside space. But there was a politicization in them. They understood one thing. Disagree. I thought for the first time, I saw my mother disagreeing on some political thing. Otherwise, the disagreement was not right. A woman will disagree and she will give an opinion. Especially in political things. I think that is very common to the female gender of this country. Most families. Most families. So, that was a change. Unfortunately, Covid-19 completely ended that change. But yes, there is a politicization now. They have a political voice. They have a new personality. They have a new voice. They have a new character. Because of everyone. In Covid-19, the information has become very handy. Because of YouTube. Everybody is having a mobile phone. So, I keep seeing. Many people, I can't imagine, watch news on YouTube. I think people, I cannot imagine they will ever watch, they were watching, they were searching and watching on the YouTube, because YouTube also suggests you, so people realized and they watched. So I think that politicization started and because of COVID it got break, but still some sort of politicization happened, there was a difference pre and post that protest. This is my last question in this conversation, your book is the narrative of mainstream media, it challenges it, it challenges what is shown in it. And somewhere in your book you mention that there was a space in which you told people to come and write where you are talking about resistance through art. So I wanted to know from you that as an author, your first book has arrived and I hope that more books will come. Writing for revolution, what we call it today's time is so important to take out such narratives, which may be a narrative of experience, but I have seen it around me. So how important for you as an author is this idea of writing about revolution like your book does, but also for revolution like so many graffiti artists and cultural activists and poetry, people who were writing poetry and so many others. So how important do you think that today's time is so important? There are two things that I understand, like you used the word revolution. So I feel that many people don't know that word, we came to the university, but many people are writing such paintings, telling such things. For example, there is a geography teacher in my hometown who taught some girls how to play sports. And today she has made a huge club, she has become an academy. She has played with girls from small villages like the US, Russia and so on. She doesn't have any support, she is doing everything by herself. So I think maybe she doesn't use the word revolution, but from where I see that revolution. She got angry that if she has such a good talent, we should use it. So she used it. So there are two things in it. Either you have an interest or I believe that I should write because revolution will come and I should record the revolution. This is also one of many people's thing, they should record me. The other thing is that I have to write because I feel weird, I am getting angry. And we can use the word. I don't understand anything. Let me write. So in this, people ask me, I go anywhere to talk, people ask me questions like this. For example, I have everyone's answer. Actually, I understand that I can do this. So I am doing that. There is a role and that role comes to me. I do the same thing. I am not doing anything other than writing. In fact, before writing, I didn't even know that I would be able to write. But I poured it out to relieve myself. It came out. So I think this is a very big thing that I always keep in mind. I keep it very central. This is a role and everyone's role is important. The people who were standing ahead or the people who were feeding water, their role was as important as mine. And this is a matter of time. When will it be asked, when will it be surfaced. You must have seen a news that the other day in Inexpress, the students would put a broom in the streets in the evening. And the whole street was cleaned. So that's a role. You cannot do everything. I saw a senior who was a post-doc scholar. I used to see him putting a broom in the street. So that was his role. That was my role. There was a role of traffic management. That too has to be done together. So I always believe that this is everyone's role. And everyone should play their role. These are the things that come out when things come out. Revolution or catastrophe. These are big words that we give. But I believe a lot in this role play. That I am one of them. Certainly, certainly. That's a very good note to end also. That if I am an artist, my role is the biggest, to express solidarity there. Or just go there and stand there. With your silence. That too can be a role. And I think all these things that you are saying are captured in some way or the other in your book. So thank you very much for talking to us. Talking to Leftward for Leftward book. And I really hope and I highly recommend that people get to read this book. And it reaches out to as many people. I think it's a kind of a starting point for students specifically. Who are just about or who are kind of finding themselves in a certain position and trying to take positions in their universities, colleges. Also within their families. So I think in that context, this book is also extremely, extremely important. So thank you very much. And thanks Leftward for organizing this conversation.