 I want to know why I should be vegan when I like meat. I hated being a hypocrite, but if you're happy to be a hypocrite. Oh, damn, no, you can't say that. I stepped too far. What did a cow ever do to me? What did a chicken ever do? I don't know what to say, bro. What's up, brother? You want to sit down? Come on, come on. You got your mask on for, uh, to protect the identity. Hello. What's your name? I'm Mark. Mark? What's your name? Joey, brother. See? You've got enough space, man. You're big, bro. You're a big fella. So, uh, why aren't you vegan? Why am I not vegan? Yeah. I like meat, bro. That's why. You like meat. So you like the taste. Are you vegan? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, so are you trying to tell me I should be vegan? I want you to tell me and justify why you're not. Because, uh, you know, like, you say you like the taste of meat. I did too, but then I stopped eating meat because I think animals matter morally and shouldn't be exploited and slaughtered for a quick sandwich. Okay, you're saying this now. Yeah. But what about before? I don't know, I think 2003,000 years before where there wasn't the industrial power to just make food that you can eat now. Yeah. You're only a vegan because you're not surviving anymore. You're living. Of course. We've got the choice now. You do have the choice, but we've always slaughtered animals. We've always killed animals to eat them. Yeah. We've always slaughtered each other too. To some extent now it's, and I've seen pictures and videos of like how head like chickens are being, I think it's disgusting, of course, but I think to say that because of that, I shouldn't eat meat is, I don't think you really have like, you know, for you, of course, it's your life. You can choose if you want to be a vegan, but for me, I want to be, I like meat. I want to eat meat. It's natural. It's natural. I think it's natural. So before you say more things, we want to talk about the things that you put on the table here because you put a few things on the table. You said it's, well, before, you couldn't, you wouldn't have been, before industrial sort of food production, you wouldn't have been able to. That was one of your reasons. No, no, no, no, no, no. You could have. Okay, you could have, but everyone was happy if, I don't know, someone caught like, a deer or something. It wouldn't be happy. Like meat wasn't a necessity, but it was like, everyone would be happy, you know. I don't really care what happened back then, to be honest with you. Oh, damn. Wow. I don't actually care what happened 2000 years ago, bro. I don't care what people did to survive back then because it doesn't matter now. It doesn't matter now. What matters now is we have a choice. And when we choose to eat animals, we're choosing to have them be exploited, treated cruelly most of the time and executed for a sandwich. So the other thing you said is it's natural. I don't care what's natural. I care what's ethical, you know, cause a lot of horrible things are actually natural, like hurricanes and natural disasters and, you know, naturally occurring viruses and lions shredding antelope to death, you know, in nature without stunning them first in slaughterhouse. I don't care what's natural. I care, I care, I care. You know, rape is natural. Killing, humans killing other humans has been pretty like natural part of human evolution and things like this. I don't really, really care about nature. I care about like appealing to nature is actually like a logical fallacy. I've got a microphone. Oh, you do? Okay, okay. Yeah. Okay. I care about what's like ethical and what we should do, what we ought to do. You said that you hate seeing all those decapitated chickens and stuff, but that one is not eating meat. So you don't like seeing that. So what does that tell you about what's natural for you? Well, that's a good point. If we want to entertain your natural thing, even though I think it doesn't matter what's natural, what matters is what's ethical, but you naturally felt sick when you seen all those decapitated chickens. Yes, I did. Yeah. I don't think you're a cold stone, cold-hearted killer or cruel person. Like you just deliberately cruel to animals. Oh, no, no, no. Like if you've seen a pigeon, I don't, you don't strike me as the person who would just go up and singe them in the eye with a blight or something and go. He does that. And you don't even strike me as a person who would pounce on them and bite them in the neck and go and rip their throat out and go, well, you know what? It's natural. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You always say it's natural. You would say that's crazy. What do you do into that poor bird? You can have a vegan burger right there. What are you doing that for? Okay. So what I'm saying is you... What was the original question, by the way? Why aren't you vegan? Why am I not vegan? Okay. You said because you like the taste of meat. Yes, I do. Yeah. So pleasure. Yeah. You get pleasure from meat. You enjoy it. You prefer it. It's a preference of yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So for you, it's a flavour. And what is it to the animal when you eat meat? What happens to them? Well, for you, you get a flavour. What happens to them? They die. Yeah, they die. That's one part of it. But there's horrible things that happen before they die. Like, you know, about factory farming in the UK? I don't know about the UK, but I've seen some videos, yeah. What do you think happens to animals in the UK when they're farmed? What do you picture when I say, hey, if you say chicken, you eat chickens? Yeah, yeah. You eat chicken? I like chicken. Well, what's your preferred meat? Bacon? What? I don't know. Yeah, bacon's nice. You like bacon? Beef. I like a good steak. You like steak? Yeah, good steak, yeah, yeah. We could talk about chickens and pigs first, though, because I want to talk about them predominantly, because a lot of people, they eat chickens and pigs, you know, chickens particularly, because about a billion chickens are slaughtered here in the UK each year. Yeah, and most of them, where do you think they are? They think they're out on the grass? No, not most of them. Where do you think they are? Probably in slaughterhouses. Well, they're actually called a factory farm. OK. So like a big warehouse filled to the brim with like 50,000 chickens and they have like five or six or seven or eight of those big sheds on the farm? OK, OK. Yeah. Can I just say something quickly? Yeah, yeah. I want to know why I should be vegan when I like meat, because I understand the points you're telling me that a lot of things, but there's also a lot of other disasters in the world which you probably don't care so much about. Like, do you look at, I don't know, do you see thousands of children dying in, I don't know, Syria, the whole city's wiped? Do you think about that every day? You're not asking me about Syria. I don't think about it every day, but I don't see you with a gun shooting Syrian children. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I do see... No, no, but this is the answer to your question here. OK. I don't see you with a gun shooting Syrians and bombing them. I don't see you doing that. But what I do see you doing is going in and paying for animals to be executed every single day for a sandwich, you know. So that's why I'm talking to you about why you should be vegan. If you were out there doing some horrible war crime, then I'd change the debate table title to why you're committing war crimes. But, you know, because it's... Because you're culpable for these things that happen to animals. But we're not really culpable for what's going on in Syria. And I don't see any practical way of us helping right now, other we can raise awareness, if that's what you want to do. Oh, no, I guess for me, meat's been so, like, instilled into me. How old are you? I'm, like, 18, but I've always eaten a lot of meat. Same. And I don't know, I think at some point I might go vegetarian, at some point. Vegan's a step too far, in my opinion. Not a step too far if it's your personal preference. But for me, I wouldn't go that further step to be vegan. I would just be a vegetarian, if anything. If you were going to do something, you would cut out me. Yeah, because to be fair, there's lots of... If it's just about the taste, like, a lot of vegetarian meat tastes the same. Why do you think I didn't just go vegetarian and keep eating dairy and eggs? Why do you think I didn't? You probably think you're just using them for what they have. It's like robbing them. Yeah, maybe that's a little more subtle, but maybe it's a little bit more than that. So do you know much about these two industries, dairy and eggs? Not much, actually. Yeah. So what do you think happens to, in order for a dairy cow to produce milk? How do you think that process happens? They have a ball, and they stick like an electrode, and they ejaculate it in the bull's anus to force him to ejaculate. Oh, shit. Or they jack him off. So they molest this bull, like they're about one, two, three, what, three years old or something like this, three-year-old bull, like a young bull, and they're jacking them off to get the semen out, and then they get the semen, and then they get an insemination device. So they get that device, they put the semen in there, and then they get their fist, and they stick their entire arm in the anus of the female cow to hold the cervix, and then they stick in the tube and inseminate into her vagina and inseminate it like that. They put her in a rack so she can't move, and then she has a nine-month pregnancy, so this calf is growing in her stomach for nine months, and she's getting ready to see her baby, and she'll give birth, and the farmer will take the calf away immediately, immediately after birth, and they say it's to protect the calf, but really it's to protect their profit and their milk. The calves are male, they don't produce milk, so the dairy industry don't want them. Sometimes they shoot them in the head on the farm, and that happens in England as well, but they'll be outlawing that by the end of this year. They can send them off a veal, so they can send them to Europe in a truck container, and they'll get slaughtered as baby cows for veal, or they'll go to beef and go to a slaughterhouse to be killed, right? So the meat industry and dairy industry are the same. So that process will happen, the forced impregnation, getting a calf's taken about three or four times, and then she'll go to a slaughterhouse and get turned into a burger, because 50% of the beef in this country comes from dairy cows. So they're the same industries. The suffering is more prolonged, and it's more maternal trauma for the dairy cow to have, because they're maternal animals, and you separate a mammal from her calf, or they pine for each other, it's an emotional pain that feels like a physical one to them, you know what I mean? Eggs are pretty horrible too, like all those hens get gassed to death when they don't produce eggs anymore, and the males, because the males don't produce eggs, they don't want them, so they blend them up on their first day of life. So what happens? The fertilized eggs will come out of a parent breeding shed, and they'll go to an incubator, right, and then they'll hatch, and the females and males will be separated out. So they'll get the females, they can lay eggs for the egg industry, and the males, they get discarded, right? They go down this conveyor belt and go into a big industrial blender, fully conscious on their first day of life, or they will get gassed. The females will go on to lay egg, egg, egg, egg, egg a day in the breeding, in the egg facility, and sometimes they suck in all the nutrients out of their body, and they can die on their faces in the sheds, and just, they just look terrible by the end of the, when they go to the slaughterhouse, and then they go to get gassed, and get put in, like, processed meat, chicken nuggets and that. So that's the egg industry. There's other things that are bad about those industries, but I don't want to take too much of your time, but... I don't know what to say, bro. Have you had any health benefits since you've been vegan? Well, bro, I was, because that could probably make me want to be vegan, more than just, like, animals are getting slaughtered. It might be a better way to approach it, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, but you told me that you don't like animal cruelty, but you pay for it, so that's why I approach it like that, because I hated being a hypocrite, but if you're happy to be a hypocrite. Oh, damn, no, you can't say that. How am I just saying that, bro? You can come on camera. But basically, what I'm saying is that you told me that you hate seeing animals killed, but you pay for it, so what else, what other conclusion would I come to? I was a hypocrite, too, don't worry about it. That was my realisation, I was like... Okay, okay, okay. Can you get to the health benefits, please? So whole foods, plant-based diet, more fibre, more fruits and vegetables, which is good. It can protect you against heart disease, diabetes, things like this. Processed meats like bacon and ham and things like this are class one carcinogen, classified by the World Health Organisation, and red meats like lamb and pork and beef were a class two A carcinogen, I think. So they probably cause cancer. You know, and then you got that number one killer, which is heart disease, which animal products contain cholesterol and saturated fat, which raise your blood cholesterol, which is the main risk factor for heart disease, and heart disease is the number one killer of human beings. So there are, and obviously, plant foods don't have cholesterol. So yeah, I lost a bunch of weight, I had mental clarity, stuffing dead body parts down my throat, I think, made me sluggish, and, you know, had, you know, decomposing body parts in my stomach. Really? It was that bad? I used to eat big T-bone steaks all the time and things like this, and I was just mindlessly stuffing meat down my face, so. So did you just make the switch like that? Uh, like, so what happened? I was on house arrest, actually. And that was when I was, I got really fat because I was taking a lot of drugs. I went on house arrest, got really fat, eating a lot of meat, a lot of cheese, a lot of bacon. Super fat, and then I was looking for a diet to lose weight and I found raw, raw vegan. So I was eating like raw fruits and vegetables, drinking these juices, and I felt like I was on drugs from the fruits and vegetables. Really? It was just like big green juices, and I was like, wow. Like, I felt like I could fly from the green juices and the raw food. And then after that, like I had a seed planted because I was watching this raw foodist and he was talking about karma. Uh-huh. And I seen karma in the game world, I seen people that were going out doing stuff and stuff was happening to them back. So that's the seed that stayed in my head about karma and animals because I thought, in the gang world, we're always doing stuff to each other. And people do something wrong to you and you retaliate. They do something wrong, you retaliate. Animals are innocent, all right? And we're attacking innocent beings and they did nothing wrong to us and that's what stuck in my head. So when I got out of prison, and I've been, because I got sober in prison, when I got out, I made the decision about a month after being out. Oh, okay. And I've been out of prison ever since 2013. By the way, you telling me this makes me think about it more, by the way. But like... About my personal story? Yeah, because why are you vegan? Because you're asking me, why am I not vegan? But I think it'd be better if I'm like, so why are you vegan then? What do you think about 3D paint? What do I think about it? It's better than an animal being had a throat slashed open in a slaughterhouse for sure. Yeah, so the line is not using products that exploit and deliberately sort of kill animals. Yeah, I avoid honey actually, the honey industry. There's gonna be, like, as a vegan, there's gonna be, like, you can't live without causing some harm. Like, you know, when you buy plants, like let's say you buy some fruits and vegetables and that, you can't guarantee no insects have been harmed. These things happen because of civilization. I would call some justified and unjustified. Like taking random some cows up, throwing them in a slaughterhouse and bulk gunning them in the head and cutting their head off and putting them into a burger. It's very graphic language. This is because that's what it's like. If I had to say, oh, they turn them into burgers, you would miss out that whole part. No, no, no, yeah, that's what I mean. Because the way you put it like that, I say it's graphic language because it hits me more than just saying they're slaughtered. The biggest thing that gets people is the propaganda. You never see, it's always farm to plate. It's always our green grasses. Oh, a cow, there's a picture of a cow and there's a burger. You never see what I see, which is, you know, they're raised in factory farms or they're slaughtered in blood filled slaughterhouses and they don't wanna die and they're begging with the slaughter worker not to be shot in the head. That's what I see. They're desperately pleading, you know, blood everywhere, guts everywhere. That's what actually happens. But people are completely disconnected from that. And when I see the propaganda, like as an investigator or animal rights activist, I can see it way more than most people because I see the horrible other side and see what they promote to good people. You know what I mean? There's very small percentage of people that don't care about animal suffering. You know what I mean? They're very small percentage and they're cold sociopaths. They probably don't care about human suffering either, but most people- They're usually serial killers too. Yep, yep. They start with- If you start with animals because they're usually a lot weaker than you. Yeah. And then you just go killing one that high. It's a gateway. It's fucked, yeah. I was violent towards people for a long time actually. For like, you know, a decade. I was in violent gangs and we would commit acts of violence on people. Gang wars and guns and breaking people's legs and doing crazy stuff for so long. But then when I got sober from all the drugs and that, I started to like think of this stuff. So I think like, what did a cow ever do to me? What did a chicken ever do? Like I owe people that messed me up real bad and I haven't even done to them what I do to a chicken so I can eat them. And how is that fair on them, on that little bird? You know what I mean? Because I would defend, if someone was hitting a dog or a little kid, I would defend them straight away. I would probably just run up and whack them as hard as I could. But I would do that, but in my other hand as a burger with a cow that was tortured and killed. You know what I mean? So how does that make sense? And I'm usually probably the same. Yeah. You made some good points. I have to reflect on it though. I'll think about what you said for sure. If there was one thing I get to watch, my friends made this, animal rights activists in Australia. Another, my British friends made this one, Land of Hope and Glory and Dominion. And you'll understand why I've got graphic. If you've got to watch anything, watch that, Dominion. It will show you exactly what happens to all the animals in all the industries. Like you said, how far do you take it? Like circuses and breeding puppies and things like this. All the ways that humans exploit animals. Yeah, yeah, then you'll know. Oh wow. Okay, now I understand it. And then you'll, because you've got to have knowledge before you can make decisions, you know? Fair enough, bro. Oh shit, thank you. Thank you so much. On that bit of paper I gave you, right? There's a vegan challenge. It's called Challenge 22. It's free help if you want to go vegan, but I gave you a bunch of like apps on there that you can find vegan food in that if you're interested in it. But watch Dominion if you want to be mind blown about what they're doing. Yeah, yeah, Joey Kalb's wrong. See you later, good talking to you. See you later. See you, mate. See you later. Bye bye.