 Si'n ddych chi'n gweithio'n gwych i chi'n gweithio. Rhaid i chi ar y mynd i'w senedd, darwch ar gweithio'n mewn gweldio chi'n gweithio'n gweithio yma yn yr unig ar ôl onlin gynnig i gael gweithio'r locio digitalu llwyng, oedd o'n gwbl i'n ei ddeswyl ni'n credu i ni'n gweldio chi ar hyn o'r gweithio'n gweithio, ac roeddech chi'n cael pwysig o'r appu. felly balladgo yma ar «Sli度.com», mae'r llildydd yn cael ei dalol ei gofyn i SSBC – I will bring you here, I'm going to try and incorporate your questions as we go, so be kind please, we will do our best. And I also want to remind you on social if you're sharing hashtag Wef22. Now, if there's one thing and it might be the only thing up for debate that I think financial sector participants agree on at this moment is whether your bank, regulator, consumer, business is that the current system can be more efficient, it can be more inclusive and it can be fairer. The big question is how do we achieve that and there are many ways of going about it. What if I told you 90% now of the world's central banks say they're investigating central bank digital coins, whether pushed by the private sector and I see some faces that I recognise in the audience or working with the private sector, let's be clear. I think we all recognise that technology like central bank digital coins have the potential to reshape the financial system and revolutionise payments. Now, some central banks started years ago and they're represented on this fantastic panel. They're also providing lessons, I think, and challenges to other central banks. What do we need to know? What are the macroeconomic, the geopolitical consequences? What are the benefits but also the challenges of rollout, data privacy, security, scalability? Just to name a few. At the heart of any currency, how do we ensure trust? Particularly given the great turbulence we see across financial markets but specifically in private crypto markets today and how new this concept is. We have to get it right first time. It has to be a benefit to users but also minimise financial security and financial stability risks. I don't ask much. But I do ask much of what is a truly fantastic panel. Let me introduce them. The Governor of the Central Bank of France, Francois Villaroy. Axel Eamon. Oh, nice. I like that. Thank you. Axel Eamon, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Credit Suisse. Chris Lina Giogeitha, the Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund. And last but not least, a set-aport to Suisse Wahneraport, the Governor of the Central Bank of Thailand. We're going to have some fun. I think it would be remiss of me not to begin with what we're seeing, as I mentioned, not only in broader financial markets but in crypto markets in particular. We've got not-so-stable coins having significant issues. We've got governments that decided to legalise private crypto like Bitcoin. I don't want to mention Venezuela but I just did. Now sitting on significant losses. You name it, we've got turbulence. I think my first question to our entire panel is, what the heck's going on? In many ways, quite frankly, but in this specifically and to all of you but I'm playing to my Governors, whether maybe to Chris Lina too. Whether what we're seeing is the argument, a proof of concept perhaps of central banks needing to lead the way in payment systems. Chris Lina, I'll begin with you. Well, when somebody promises you 20% return on something that is not backed by any assets, how would we normally call this thing? We would call it a pyramid. In other words, this is pyramid in the digital age. But we should not be mistaken to immediately classify everything in the digital money world in a negative way because there are three categories. The first one is central bank digital currencies. They are backed by the state and they offer finality when transactions are settled. This is a universe that, as you said, 90% of countries are exploring. Who crossed the finish line first? The Bahamas with the Sand Dollar. But now we have Nigeria stepping there and there are many pilots of which the largest universe of a pilot which actually made me wake up and say, well, this thing is moving so fast that the international monetary fund has to embrace it. China with a pilot with 128 million participants. Now, the second group, these are the stable coins. Some of them deserve the name because they are backed by assets and when they are backed by assets one to one, they are really stable. They look a little bit like money market funds, but there are money market funds in this digital space. And then we have lower degree of stability. The less there is a backing, the more you should be prepared to take the risk of this thing blowing in your face, which is what happened some days ago. I want to be very, very direct that I do feel that for the people who lost money because part of the reason they lost money is not really being well educated on this new investment world. And I want to go to the third universe, the crypto that is really not pretending to be backed up by anything, not designed to be backed up by anything. It is really the trust that is built in a way that brings value. It is an investment class. When we say I always get upset and then I get occasional hate tweets, when I say that Bitcoin may be called coin, but it's not money. Why? Because a prerequisite for something to be money is to be a stable store of value. So you actually can plan around it and when the first country embraced Bitcoin and I was asked what did we think at the front, I said well it's a sovereign decision, doesn't make it a good decision. And now we have another country that embrace that. You actually said to me just because you can doesn't mean you should. Yes. And I'll never forget that. Yes, that's very true. So my point here is that they are very important responsibilities for the central banks and also for other regulators, regulators of financial services, regulators of this asset class to make sure that everybody can step into this world with some confidence that we understand that for CBDCs the biggest question is interoperability. How are they going to connect to each other? But for stable coins, for crypto assets, it is responsibility for some regulation and financial education. I would beg you not to pull out of the importance of this world because of what Julia said. It offers us all faster service, much lower cost and more inclusion, but only if we separate apples from oranges and bananas. And that is our job. We have a huge responsibility to do it well. Yes, because sometimes the pipsqueak and we're seeing that right now. I'm going to come back to you because you didn't actually answer my question on whether central banks can do this best. But I'm going to ruminate over that question. Francois, come in here. Loaded question. Where payments are concerned, do central banks have to be at the core of it or can private companies perhaps do a better job? I apologize. No, don't. I didn't answer it, but I know Francois will. No, you can do it now. You can do it now. Wait. It's one sentence. One sentence. Yes. Central banks have a role. Private sector has a role. Private sector innovates much better than normally while central banks innovate too. But private sector works with innovation. But central banks can bring this finality of payments that private sector really cannot. Right? Okay. Now Francois is going to say, oh, Chris, the leader is so nonsense. Let me be very short starting about the fact that you mentioned, Julia, that currency is about trust for centuries. And it's about technological innovations for century also. Remember of the bank notes? None of us was alive two or three centuries ago, but it was a tremendous technological progress of central bank currency at that time. And in order to have the best of trust, which comes more from central bankers than the public side, and technological innovation, which comes more from the private sector, there is a partnership. And for decades there has been a partnership in insuing money and in organizing the payment system. So one word about crypto and one word about CBDC on this partnership. Crypto, I always speak of crypto assets and not cryptocurrencies and not by chance because as Kristallina just said, they are not a reliable currency. They are not a reliable mean of payment in order to be a currency. Somebody must be responsible for the value. Nobody is responsible for the value of cryptos. And it must be accepted universally as a means of exchange. It's not. The more interesting story is probably CBDC. And here I say it for Excel and for all the industry. We also have to build a partnership. I know there are some worries from banks saying, look, we play a role, not from Credit Suisse for sure. Thank you. Which I'm glad. It's a whole new problem. Saying, look, we issue commercial bank currency, which is true. All of us have credit cards with bank currency and we are more or less very active in the payment system. It doesn't mean that in the future commercial banks should disappear from that. But we have to build a partnership in order to give to citizens and to give also to corporate and financial institutions still access to central bank currency with the best technology. We cannot have the technology on one side, cryptos, and trust on the other side, old style central bank currency. Let us keep it together. It's so fascinating because there's a million ways I could take this. But obviously proponents of crypto would say, look, we lost trust in central banks a long time ago. You've inflated your own currency. My impression, Julia, is more than in recent weeks citizens have lost trust in cryptos. I'm broader financial market. More than in central banks without any doubt. I know, but you're now in charge of restraining some of the reasons like inflation. But I mean, again, a different panel. I hear you. Axel. There's a lot in there. What the heck is going on? What the heck? No, because we've run out of time to answer all the heck questions. I will tell you all what is ongoing. No. Look, I think... I mean, it's nascent technology relatively. So we can answer the question on a different panel again about whether the stability comes as technology improves. I mean in the private sector too. But you know, CBDCs, whatever they look like in the future, they're not necessarily going to be the holy grail. There are many options that will come to it, be it fast payments, be it alternatives. I guess what I'm asking today is for the majority of people that are what the heck about crypto. Never mind what's going on, what central banks are offering, and what the options are going to be one day. How do we need to think about this today? I think it's the way I look at it is, you know, what do we try to fix? What do we try to address? You said it roughly some 10 years ago or 8 years ago here at the left. It was blockchain and that will revolutionise and banks are gone and everything will be completely different. We are still here, fortunately, so grant that I can sit here on that chair. Governments were coming down when I first got the cost. So you had then obviously as Crystalina clearly said, you know, crypto currencies, crypto assets. That's one thing. Then the stable or not so stable coins in the middle. And now we talk about central bank digital currencies. So central banks strongly feel, at least in certain jurisdiction, there's a certain need that needs to be addressed. And I think we didn't talk about yet there are two ways on central bank digital currencies. One is the more the wholesale piece. So basically our interactions as a commercial bank with the central bank. And here I would say it makes a lot of sense. This is new technology coming in. We can talk about it, the advantage, this advantage, but at the end it's an efficiency game and maybe it's a security game. It makes a lot of sense. A completely different ballgame it is when you start to talk about the retail, you know, central bank digital currency. Not because it's digital. I can pay this digital with my mobile. Has nothing to do with central bank digital currency. But I think the fundamental changes the underlying business model is as I, as a retail customer, as a citizen will have an account with the central bank. I don't have just an account with a commercial bank. I have it with the central bank, which has a lot of advantages for me. It's safe, it feels good, but yeah, there are some challenges with this because the central bank is ultimately, you know, it's a public office. Commercial banks are under a commercial regime. Central banks are not under commercial regime. What about interest rates on an account like that when things are going well? How does this look like? Is this accelerating the bank run because I have a safe account with somebody? So these are then the fundamental question. That's why I think it's excellent to see that 90%, 87% I think central banks are looking into that and try and we need to figure out how that all can work. But having said what is ongoing, I think we are now for 10 years, 15 years in that new technology blockchain. We see now the market is collapsing. Okay, let's see in five or 10 years. Something will survive, something will survive. And I think we should all make sure we understand what that will be. We've been through many cycles through technologies of all kinds that go up and down and new things come and benefits are created. Set to put, last but not least, you can answer the what the heck question, but you can also answer some of the questions that have been posed to you. I know. Yes, because you've done wholesale and you've looked at the retail payments and you've been going on this since 2018. And I think you have sort of strong views on takeaways about all of these things and the benefits and the challenges. Yeah, maybe I could share some of the lessons that we've learned from working in the CBDC space. We started off, as Julia mentioned, about five years or so, doing a bunch of proof of concepts. Started off with wholesale CBDC. Then we went to cross-border wholesale CBDC because that's an area where we think there's an obvious lot of pain points across-border payments. The whole correspondent bank says it worked terribly well, it takes a long time and everything. So there was a problem there to solve. And we started off working together with the Hong Kong Monetary Authority, establishing a cross-border payment corridor. And that since has been extended on a more multilateral basis. It's called the Enbridge Project. The PBOC Bank China is involved and the UAE is involved in that and the BIS as well. Our next phase now is to think more on the retail space and we're looking at doing a pilot, a limited pilot, nothing on the size of China in fourth quarter of this year. So I should caveat this by saying that these are testing and experimentation. We haven't rolled it out yet. At one point again, there are a lot of banks looking at it. But the number of central banks have actually done this. This has been relatively limited. And I think that's important to keep in mind because it's got to be clear what problem might solve. So with that background, if I may, some of the takeaways and whatnot. First point, be on the technology. One thing we discovered particularly in the wholesale CBDC cross-border project is that blockchain, the way it's set up, it's very good for things that are to be open and transparent. But when you try to put in kind of anonymity in it, it affects the ability of it to scale. So in the cross-border wholesale CBDC, you didn't want everybody to see what transaction you were doing. You wanted the people that were party transactions to see but not the other people to see that. But when you put in these anonymity things, it affected the computational problems and then it made it that much more difficult to scale. There's an irony here. Just as an aside about the criticisms of blockchain technology in a way by those that perhaps don't understand is that you can hide in some way behind it and you're just making the point that this is actually so transparent in this regard that actually data privacy... Forgive me for interrupting. Second point on the technology that we discovered is programmability. It's a selling point, but it also has its drawbacks. If you think about smart contracts, they're supposed to self-execute, right? Which means that you've got to specify all that stuff kind of upfront. So there's a lot of ex-anti-burden trying to specify all the conditions, all the states of the world. Because you don't have recourse to that kind of ex-post, go to the courts and get some kind of remedial measures. But that's a very difficult thing to do. I mean think about how smart contracts can handle something when foreseen like sanctions on Russia. So smart contracts might look smart under some circumstances, under different circumstances, aren't going to look terribly smart. So that's an issue and we found this when we were doing again, doing the wholesale cross-border CBDC project. The last set of points and takeaway on lessons would be on risks and design. The devil really is in the detail in terms of design. A lot of the risks that people talk about in CBDC, you can't talk about in a blanket way, it really depends how you design it. So for example, if you do a two-tier system, that avoids a lot of the risks that people concern about disemuniting banks or the privacy concerns that the central bank knows exactly what you're doing. If you do CBDCs that don't pay any interest, then again it reduces the danger of runs on banks, setting limits on CBDC. Or if you're worried about currency substitution, was it something that people are also concerned about, which I personally don't think is that big of an issue for most economies, but if you're worried about it then you can design it so that, say, non-residents can't hold CBDC. So there are ways around design which can reduce the risk. So those would be the takeaways. The design is critical and you only get one shot at this because it's to the point about trust again, you get it wrong. So your experience is too. To that point, though, about the foreign exchange risk as well, I just wonder whether it makes a central bank digital coin one day easier in a big trade area, like a eurozone that all uses the same currency or the United States, for example, just thinking out loud. But please, your experiences. No, I'm very happy that thanks to this panel and thanks to Axel and Zetaiput, we speak about all-sale CBDCs because usually the blind spot, is the missing link of the discussion. I will say one word on retail, but we believe in all-sale. In the Bangerfonds, we have also run nine experiments already. We published last November some takeaways. If I can insist on two purposes we strongly believe in. First is tokenisation of financial markets. We will have two legs, cash and securities. And second, as you said, is cross-borders. So, the use case are quite obvious. They don't interest much politicians and public opinion, but we will have, I strongly believe, all-sale CBDC. And by the way, we decided with the ECB to create a second work stream. On retail CBDC, Axel, you are right. It raises more questions. But this is where public interest is. So, I would say that on this field, I don't have all the answers yet. That we will have a prototype in the ECB till the end of 23. But here again, I think we should build a partnership with banks. This has been the history of currency and payments again. If we have a ceiling on CBDC holdings, if accounts are managed by commercial banks and not by the central banks, I don't believe that the issue of currency substitution, for example, and in that case, be a real story. To give you a very simple commitment, we in the Bank de France had private accounts till 2004. I don't want to reopen any of them. So, if we have CBDC, it will be done with the commercial banks and clearly using their skills. Again, it's a partnership. No, it's interesting. Remember when we were talking about wholesale, what do you mean wholesale retail? It's bank to bank, commercial banks to commercial banks that send money between countries around the world. But then retail, we're talking about consumers. I think this comes back to one of the critical questions. One of the reasons why I was interested in this in the beginning was remittances, and we've talked about this. For people that are trying to send money abroad to families for whatever reason, there is such high fees and so much money lost. For me, one of the fundamental questions is how do we make that better? I think it's $48 billion lost in fees and remittances on an annual basis. Are we suggesting then that we never get to a point? We haven't also answered the question of whether, are we point blank saying at this stage that a private company can't achieve this? Because there are participants in the audience, there are members of the audience who are tackling this very thing. Are we saying that CBDs are not the right solution and are fast payments perhaps an alternate option for the retail consumer and could a private company achieve what you're saying is a huge challenge for many reasons for central banks? Big questions, yeah. Let's start from what we have. Today, a consumer in New York City can pay for food in a Chinese restaurant with a pay system, Alipay, in R&Bs. So, already the private initiative has moved this transport of payments, but you can only do it within a corporate world to which you belong with your phone-based app. What we do not yet have is international settlement based on CBDCs. CBDCs are not yet internationalized, but this is where the potential to cut cost of remittances is. Today, on average, 6.3%. So, you are a worker and you want to send money to your family in euros and dollars. 6.3% is the cut of the intermediary. Obviously, this is an opportunity for advancement to use technology to make advancements. Where is the difficulty? The difficulty is that today monetary policy in a country, or as it is the case in Eurozone within the Eurozone, is defined by the central bank, the Fed, the European central bank. And this monetary policy applies to the territory, the jurisdiction. How could central bank digital currency cross borders and go into another jurisdiction? Would that create a risk of currency substitution? So, everybody says, I want ECBs, CBDCs. I want the Euro. And these are unresolved issues, but it doesn't mean they cannot be resolved. This is why from the fund we are advocating to think about this world of digital money as a global public good. And in the recent discussion in Zurich where we bought were, what we advocated for is to have a public platform. So, when protocols are agreed, this public platform can connect different CBDCs. They can be interoperability. The same way you would transfer euros from one country to another, you do it using CBDCs. We feel that we are actually a bit behind the curve. In other words, regulators, national regulators and standard settling bodies like the FSB, the financial stability board that we have to work on it. Good news. FSB started work in 19 streams, very systematic, very detailed. Not so good news. In meanwhile, we may be in a situation in which jurisdictions make decisions, but they do not underpin interoperability. Actually, what you said about BIS, the Ban for International Settlement, they have done something wonderful. They created an innovation lab and it is connecting countries. So, when they work on their pilots, on their proof of concept, they actually can partner, can share. So, we can build that public platform for the benefit of consumers. What would be the role of banks? I personally am on the view that we need banks as intermediary between money and investments. Your savings and investment somewhere, whether it is in the traditional money world, the fiat currency world or in the new digital world, we need specialized institutions to make sure savings can work for growth, for jobs. But it doesn't mean that it is impossible to have retail CBDCs. I personally don't quite see why should we do that. Why do we want central banks to venture in the world where you guys are? Certainly not in well-established economies. That's a question. What would be the purpose? But back to your question, I don't think it's public sector, central banks versus commercial banks. I think it's a really collaborative effort in this regard. Everybody has to play a role. So, for example, we were with you, that was called Prodig Jura, working together on the wholesale central bank, Helvetia with the Swiss National Bank. We see that it's absolutely feasible, it will give great efficiency gains, but we also get the sense of, you know, we all have our legacy IT environment, and that will take a lot of time until we go there. On the retail side, even today, most banks offer you multi-currency credit cards where you can have basically zero transaction costs, you can settle your bills in various currencies. So, there's a lot of development ongoing, but I would caution it will take some time. There's no silver bullet. Define it. How long? How long are we talking? In the case of the ECB, there is a precise answer. We will have the prototype till the end of 23 or early 24, and then we will decide and take three years if we have a broad euro. So, it could come in 26 or early 27. I don't know if it's good news for Axel, but it could be good news for euro areas. I want you to come in here, because of all these things that we're discussing, you know, again, you have real-world experience too, and I read your entire report on the wholesale, the retail, the fast payments, everything that you've gone through, and the thing that lept out at me, and it goes back to remittances. The problem that we're trying to solve here, who is the ultimate beneficiary? Do we need to get involved in add-more layers or less layers? You found a 50% reduction in cost, and it took 80% less time to settle transactions, because this is another thing. You're trying to send money abroad, and great, but it takes five, six days to settle, and this is personal for you too, because you have family in Ukraine that you use repayments to send to too, and again, another thing I won't forget, is that this is not the Holy Grail, but are we at least answering the right questions in what we're asking here? I know this is a panel on CBDC, and like I said, we've done a fair amount of work on it when we continue to do so, but I have to say that there's a lot to be said, and there's probably good return on effort from trying to improve existing infrastructure and putting in things like fast payment systems. We've had pretty good success with putting in a fast payment system. We have a prompt pay system we put in place. We have a population of 70 million, sorry, and there are about 60-odd million ID numbers. Now it's like 40 plus million transactions a day. It's grown like five-fold over the past five years, and one thing that's been wonderful is the benefits of inclusion. So we have now associated with that, like QR codes for merchants. There's 7.2 million QR codes. So now we literally have sidewall vendors on their carts. They have a QR code, and they can get payments very efficiently. So I think fast payment systems can give you a lot of... It's a low-hanging fruit, can give you a lot of benefits, and even on the cross-border side, one thing we did about a year ago was we connected the fast payment system with Thailand prompt pay with the one in Singapore pay now. It was the first fast payment linkage in the world. And now you can send money. If I know someone's mobile number in Singapore, I can send it pretty much instantaneously at very low fees. Whereas before, you had to go to the branch and fill in forms that would take you three days and a lot of money in terms of fees to send the stuff. So there's a lot that you can do with the existing infrastructure existing technology and improve it. And it depends on where you are on the market. Because I think this is important. Can you hear my fear? We went through a stage, and you'll remember it in financial markets, where if you added Bitcoin or something to your name as a company, your share price would soar. And when I see and read that 90% approximately of looking at this, and I just wonder whether it's sort of almost the fear of, oh my goodness, if we don't look like we're investigating this, we're going to lose ground to private companies or we're going to look like we're idiots or almost the stage where we have to talk about something and think that you know what you're saying and doing even when you don't. And so that's my fear in this sphere is sort of what's the problem we're trying to solve? Are there solutions? We're sort of trying to make it, and maybe this is a media problem that we make it into an us all then when it doesn't have to be. You know, in the end we're trying to help people. It's not about the public sector, it's not about the private sector, it shouldn't necessarily be a race. There's a good way to do this, and I guess the hope is that that's the direction we're headed in. Are we? I guess so, yeah. You see it on who's sitting on that panel. I truly don't see that competition at that point of time, and you were a lot of critical on retail central bank digital currencies. I think in well established economies and so on. You really need to wonder what is the purpose or what is the real benefit in other countries or in geographies where they are very broad and vast that might make a lot of sense. So I believe here as a kind of there's no right and wrong answers. Let's see how things are evolving and they emerging. Look, we as a bank, we are fully aware. We need to reduce transaction costs. We need to make things more accessible, be more inclusive, make it swifter, make the user the experience usage much more friendly. So we are all fighting on that because we are in a competition with other banks. Do you think it's an existential crisis for banks? I don't think we feel it that way, but I would say yeah, you need to be part of that. You need to know the strategy and you way forward because otherwise you can get sidelined very quickly. Sometimes it takes two, three years and then you wake up one morning and say the world has changed and that was not part of it. Can I just make a point very quickly because for the Bank of Thailand you've said no private companies are going to be involved in crypto. You can invest as a private investor if you want to in digital assets. We don't want to see it as a means of payment. Yeah, but as a means of payment you're saying it's us or nothing. Yeah, I mean again crypto is regular by the SEC so for us it's fine if you want to invest in it, caveat, mTOR and all that but we don't want to see it as a means of payment. Is that the way the whole world is headed? I guess this is my question. Sorry. No, just because it's not appropriate for the reasons we decided. I mean we've discussed it but is that the way the whole world is headed? If there is a ceiling which I believe will be the case it will be mainly a means of payment. I do agree it won't be an investment. Can I add one word about your question of timing which is absolutely key? We central banks have a bit more time than the private sector. It's an advantage but we should not abuse this advantage. It means that not all innovations are perhaps welcome in the long run but CBDC is not the only innovation. We cannot say the only innovation which is interesting is ours. If it's felt this way it would be a catastrophe. I really think that we have to reconcile two completely opposite words which are stability and innovation. We are responsible for financial stability but stability without innovation is conservative and it will die. But innovation without stability will lack trust. So it's our job but we are completely open to consider that CBDC is an innovation not the only one. It's not the Holy Grail but we should seriously study it because if not we will deprive our fellow citizens from the access to central bank in the next decade we will be a huge regression for the people's well-being. We are going to fast forward five years because I think that's about what we were saying. I'll ask you. Also with a little caveat as you said Sandola was the first but it's a teeny fraction. It's early days but it's 0.1% of transactions. Fast forward five years. Do we have a central bank digital coin out there in the world that is being utilised on a daily basis whether it's wholesale or retail and it becomes a superior system? Francois? We have several experiments which are not very far from that. They are not yet generalised but they could be the next three years probably. It will go quicker on the wholesale side because it raises less sensitive questions. By the way, Julia, if I may in CBDC the last C is currency and not coins and for us it's a quite significant difference. Details, details. What proportion of transactions is it to the point about the Sandola and the 0.1% of transactions admittedly early days? Let's say we have central bank digital currency. If I am on the wholesale side cross border can play a very significant role but it won't help yet for households. It's why we are working on another agenda a G20 agenda I co-chaired with my South African colleague a group with nine very precise objectives on speed, cost accessibility of remittances and it does not rely on CBDC. So we have other ways of innovating with newcomers etc. CBDC is not the monopoly of innovation or of progress but if we central bank said look we have been relying on bank notes for two centuries we will still rely on bank notes for the next century we would miss something obviously. Yes, Axel. No I'm quite glad to hear what you're saying Fonsa on the wholesale digital currency not coin. I'm also a believer that will come in five years. Yes, what I try to say is obviously we still have those huge legacy environment they need to migrate as well so we will not yet see all the benefits coming through but it will come and will be much more efficient also probably much more secure lowering transaction costs on the retail side and much more skeptical certainly call it for the established economies much more. In five years there will be CBDCs that are I cannot give you percentage is it 5, is it 10, is it 50 but would be quite present in the world. On the retail side the reason I'm thinking of a developing country where e-money is already profoundly impactful so as you are asking what is the problem we are trying to solve and I also think and this may be me being so mature not to say all mature that I think there would be space for fiat money of some modality in five years still and maybe ten years because when you look at one of the most advanced countries in Europe, Sweden when the war started in Ukraine the demand for banknotes rapidly increased. Why? Fear of cyber attack so we have to see how the world evolves and not be ideological be very pragmatic about the decisions we take. And we should have talked about that and you've warned about that as well with the Sandala in the Bahamas that the more digital you are the more at risk you are of cyber attacks particularly at this moment in time. Five years? For you. Let's make it specific. Wholesale maybe, retail no will be my short answer and again it's got to do with that balance and Francois put it very eloquently when you're thinking about innovations right? The benefits are what pain point you're trying to address and you counterbalance it with the risk and the unintended consequences are much clearer for Wholesale than retail. I would be slightly more positive for retail if I may there are more questions to solve, I agree but if we think of El Salvador for instance, Kristalina I would prefer El Salvador citizens not to have only bitcoins and to have access to EUR or EUS we will see but it would be a progress so there is a need for how we answer the questions but I'm sure we will have Wholesale and really to bet we will have retail but we'll see. That opens up all sorts of questions. Can I ask a quick question at the end then? Does the Eurozone's digital currency come before a US dollar coin? Currency? So we should have invited Jay Pong. No no no I'm asking you because you've given me a timeline on yours. So far but they published a white book because it was a very interesting one which is open for consultation which is at least neutral so it's not negative let me express it this way we'll see but I think that what is happening in the crypto world could be an acceleration of central bank digital currency because there is a doubt now on the crypto world and there is still a need for technology having said that if this is one field where Europe can lie ahead the US I will not complain. That's called a diplomatic answer but we got there at the end but China? China is the ultimate winner. China has advanced a lot internationalised its pilot but it is offering people visiting China the ability to be part of the pilot. So I think China is telling us all that the world is changing and they have done it very effectively with private payment systems and now the state is saying wait a minute we actually want to have an upper hand in this world and they are moving so we better all be forward leaning on something that is moving so fast. There's a message in that and being told time out your panelists thank you so much everybody.