 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. We're at the og command center Jimmy Buccellato here with my partner in crime and co-conspirator Scott Bernstein now, and we have our Engineer and videographer extraordinary Benny in the house producer producer extraordinaire, and this is The first episode we've done at the command center in a few weeks We've been we've had guests the last several weeks so we've been doing some remote episodes, so it's fun to be back in person and And just want to remind everyone, please Subscribe to our YouTube channel subscribe to our audio podcast. Please like and share on social media We're active on Facebook Instagram Twitter We have some things in the works to become more active on tiktok. So Anyhow, it's really helpful to spread the word. It's still kind of a grassroots Effort and and we do we do our best to acknowledge all of your Comments and questions. It's it's not easy because it's just the three of us, but I I try to at least Like the comments even if we don't always respond. So we appreciate your patience on that I do want to thank the audience for over 1 million views on YouTube. Yep In 12 months, so that's pretty that is pretty good Thank you guys so much for listening and watching keep on growing it and good job Thank you this type of content and hopefully the more we grow it the more resources will get the more Support will get and the bigger we can blow this thing up Yeah, so thank you guys for pointing that out Today's topic. We're going to look at something that's in the news right now And it's it's related to to pop culture icons Tupac and Biggie. We're gonna look at the two murders there's a story that's in the news now related to the to the murder of Tupac and I just want to remind the audience we like to mix it up a lot of our episodes obviously are about LCN or outlaw bikers But if you look at our archives, we have episodes on the Russian mafia on the Mexican cartels We've done other audio episodes on the Colombian cartels. We like to talk about Irish mobsters So we did an episode on the black mafia from Philadelphia a few weeks ago So as professionals as as as a criminologist. I'm a university criminologist Scott is a crime reporter and author We have a professional interest in all of this stuff not not just East Coast LCN Not just outlaw bikers. We have an interest in everything So once in a while we like to mix it up and that's what we're doing today And this is very relevant right now I wouldn't have been inclined to do a Biggie Tupac episode just because just you know just because this is right now The hottest the investigation into the Tupac Shakur murder has been since it happened. Yeah We have search warrants being executed. We have grand juries being convened we have potential Immunity deals being Blown out of the water if some of the things that the police think that they can find with these search warrants if they do find it so there's a lot of Motion and action right now around the Shakur Murder and it's something that has been so steeped in mythology and so embedded into pop culture in some In some ways we kind of forget about the fact that there's never been any closure Oh, and there's so much talk about what happened and and I've heard other people say, you know, we kind of knew what happened for a while and this is kind of solidifying some of it potentially But this is this is really hot news in terms of Invest investigation wise we've never been at this point in terms of the fact that there's a grand jury about to be convened And it's possible that in the next six months to a year we could have arrests and in indictments Yeah, so I think what what we want to do is start with Discussing what the what what recently happened then we'll go back and unpack the the murders themselves And what led up to that and the subsequent violence and investigation and then also Hopefully at some point I want to talk about a round table with all three of us Just the cultural significance of this why this is still so such an important story. So What what happened just recently you want to break it down? Yeah, so in the last this word in July right now in the middle of July There were search warrants issued in Las Vegas in Clark County There was a search conducted at the house of a Suspect Dwayne Davis former I Don't know what its status right now on the street is but at one point in time We know he was a member of the the Crips Gang in in Los Angeles He is someone whose name has been Surrounding the Alleged conspiracy investigation for a very long time He's somebody who has an immunity deal in relation to this crime Which makes you wonder well, then why are they investigating him and why are they searching a residence that's connected to him? I believe it's his Wife's house or his girlfriend's house in in Las Vegas But what it tells me as Some with a law degree is that it it's pretty clear that Authorities whether they be just the state authorities or federal authorities or of the opinion that he lied to get his immunity deal and if you lie in Cutting a deal with the government the deal that you made is out the window Right which applies to an episode that by the time people watch or listen to this will will already be available Which is our episode about Frank Salami and the Stevie DeSauro murder from you know the the New England Mafia back in the 90s and Frank Salami could easily walk free from that murder if you just would have copped to it during his Debriefing session in 1999, but instead he was trying to protect a friend of his And when they dug the body up 17 years later, and he was in witness protection, you know, he had to come pay the pipe or the chickens had come home to roost so I want to mention something then ask you a question the Executed the search warrant as Scott points out. They they took USB and hard drives photographs Several computers his iPhone his tablets. I think I think also some literature he had maybe some some pictures So that that makes sense that's sort of standard in this Well, I want to ask you what you think from a legal perspective and just as a veteran crime reporter If you look at the footage, they sent the SWAT team in there Which I find very curious as a guy who has it who has an immunity deal That why do you think they came show a force such as show how you know top priority this is and how serious they're taking this yeah, and we know that, you know people are human beings and things between law enforcement and You know the dark side of the lock and sometimes get very personal and get very contentious and from me talking to people that I know That are either involved in this investigation or connected to people that are involved in this investigation Key PD Made people very upset in these last five years with a book that he wrote and with appearances that he's made on DJ Vlad some other internet Platforms where he's out there. He's out there bragging about his role in this and Just back up one second and say what I think the ultimate Endgame in this investigation and what they're looking for and what they think he lied about is the murder weapon He claims that he doesn't know what happened. He doesn't know where the murder weapon got Stashed or I believe he claims in his Deal that the murder weapon was taken from his car the night Or taken from the rented car that they had come out to Vegas for for the Mike Tyson fight That's why everybody was there Chupac was very close to Mike Tyson when he died. He sometimes would come out To the ring. Yeah with Tyson when Tyson was walking out to fight Tyson back in 1996 when this happened was you know One of you know, he's still an icon but back then one of the most recognized athletes on the planet And this was his comeback. This was part of his cut the first year that he was coming back after having to serve some prison time for a rape charge and Just like, you know a lot of major fights I know in in Detroit whenever Tommy Hearns would fight, you know, everybody from the Detroit underworld would go and I mean literally in mass you'd have hundreds of Criminals leaving Detroit to go to Atlantic City or Las Vegas to follow Tommy Hearns And I think you have when Tyson was fighting. You had a lot of guys from New York and a lot of guys from LA that wanted to come in and Watch him fight. So, you know, Keithy D and and some of his boys from the Crips including his nephew Orlando Baby Lane Anderson who plays a role in this Rented a Cadillac and drove from LA to Las Vegas in Keithy deals Keithy D's deal. He says after the murder They went again. He's admitting this After murder they went and Celebrated some but was somewhere and they left the gun in the car in the rented car And when they came back to the rented car the gun wasn't there anymore Well, and also in addition to the tablets and the pictures and phones. They also took shells They took bullets. They're trying to match for a 40 Glock there's been a lot of Mystery surrounding the murder weapon over the years the the Police have confiscated 40 Glock's in the past And try to test them. There's You know, there's we still don't know exactly what's happening behind the scenes over the years in the investigation I think there's a federal investigation and then there's a local Las Vegas investigation, but I know there's been some raids of Residences it not recently But you know in the decades past where they they found guns and Either the guns didn't come out Positive in the in the testing for what they're looking for or in some cases there's rumors that guns got lost And then they can't find them so we don't know if those But it it's pretty clear that they think that Keithy D is lying to them about the murder weapon And in my at least again in my Opinion and that's what they're aiming for here is to find the murder weapon find the bullets and that The theory is that he would have kept it or he knows where it is as some type of memento Is it possible that he's the trigger man and not his nephew? I don't I don't believe so, okay But okay, what's what if people don't know? Yeah, let's rewind it so the unpack like what happened that night. So that night up Tupac and the death row entourage is going to Caesar Palace to Go to the Tyson Bruce Selden fight. It was a very quick. I remember watching it as a 18 year old very quick flight Is that the unification fight was Selden who had a title? Yeah, it was I remember it was a it was a not a good fight Look look look it up. How Tyson kicked the shit how long that fight last I remember that might have been one of those unification fights where I think nice September 96 Tyson I think had a belt at that point too and According to some of this narrative before the Death row entourage left LA for Vegas. There was an incident Where the death row entourage is connected to the bloods because Shugnait who was the CEO of death row was a blood on a bash on a bash and There was an incident where one of the bloods affiliated with death row had his chain Snatched his death row chain Snatched off him and maybe Physically assaulted allegedly by Keefy Dee's Nephew who was also a Crips gang banger named Orlando Anderson and went by the nickname baby Lane Baby Lane and Keefy Dee were at the fight as well whether by coincidence or Maybe not They happen to run into each other Some people believe it was staged. Yeah But what we know there's footage Security cam footage from Caesar's Palace in the immediate aftermath of the fight like five or ten minutes after the fight Ended so a first-rate first round knockout One of the shortest happy weight championship fights in boxing history as a matter of fact I know we're gonna digress her for a moment But if you watch the fight Benny if you've ever seen that There's a theory that seldom that he fixed it. Yeah, he felt I mean he doesn't even put up a fight Like he goes down right away. It's a joke of a fight. I mean there's a waste of pay-per-view, right? It was a joke so like ten minutes after the took a dive the decision that's a term. I couldn't think of Chupac and Shug and about 2030 people in their entourage are walking through Caesar's Palace Presumably to go to their vehicles and Retreat back to their hotel or where Shug's house was and they were gonna reconvene at a club Right, they were gonna go to his club after which was Shug owned a club and Pac was gonna perform And Pac at that time was staying at the Luxor, which is not You know you have to get into it you can't you can't walk from yeah Caesar's to the Luxor So as they're going to their you know to leave Tupac or someone with Tupac recognizes baby Lane Anderson and You can see Tupac Kind of solo he in this rose up to him People that were there say that he said something like you Southside, right, which means that you're a Crip, right? And then Tupac just swung on him. Yeah, and and he got stomped out Anderson and baby Lane Anderson got stomped out for a good 20 30 seconds And then the death row guys dispersed worried that they're gonna be arrested or securities gonna Come in and I guess they probably already started to try to break it up and Tupac goes back to the Luxor to change clothes and I Don't know. I'm pretty sure Shug went back to his house and then at some point Shug comes and picks up Poc at the Luxor or Poc goes to Shug's house. I'm not sure. Yeah Well, that's something I want to also bring up if we get in the weeds here But I think it's interesting that the security how there was this this bad chain of events because To Poc usually had two bodyguards with him One of them wasn't there that night because of some falling out with like the death row people The other bodyguard that was there was not armed Because should did not file the proper paperwork for a guy from California to have a concealed Weapon So that's there's that and Poc wasn't wearing his bulletproof vest. Yes, right Which he was normally wearing when he was out in public that it was apparently said it was too hot Yeah, and then also Um The bodyguard wants to drive Poc to the location they're going and Shug says no, I'll take it I'll because I need to discuss some things with him privately. So there's really this Chain of events unfortunate that really made it more conducive for them to be able to kill him I think there are two important things to know contextually about what's going on behind the scenes you know the Macro is that you have this bubbling east coast west coast. Yeah, we gotta talk about rap war that was really more of a street war And it wasn't manufactured by the press or the media, which is something they try to spin to you I mean these was There were a lot of dead bodies and then dead bodies kept on piling up after Both biggie and Poc died and lasted into the 2000s. Yeah, so it wasn't a Some controversy or the source falls flag, you know, that that's one of the theories you're talking about they blame it on the sort Right source magazine though. There's all over a cover of and it was and the other was the other big magazine at the time Vibe but right it's all it's all their fault so you had this This whole situation that had popped up popped off almost two years before the end of 1994 Everything's copacetic a pock and biggie or friends east coast and west coast have come together But people should know if you don't even though Poc was representing west coast Poc was an east coaster That's who went who went to the west coast and started repping the west coast, but There was a famous shooting quads the quad studio shooting which which really ignited this whole thing where Poc and biggie were both at a studio and It seems pretty clear that there were people that wanted to rob to Poc and biggie probably knew about it or potentially knew about it and Poc got robbed almost got killed and Poc blame biggie and puffy and that crew either for Taking part in the robbery or having knowledge and some type of interest in the robbery or Having knowledge of it without an interest in it and not not warning them off not warning Yeah, so let's cover a couple of things leading up to this feud because I love the geek out on this You know, I'm a huge Poc fan. We're both I mean, I this is my teenage years. That's all I listened to was biggie and two-parts. I still listen to Poc if you if those of you who watched our episode a few weeks ago with Anjai where we're talking about the Chicago mob stuff and the financial scams That was a remote episode, but you'll see if you watch that I'm repping my death row records teacher in that episode So we my love of I guess you can kind of take it back possibly to run And this is an aside to run DMC and NWA, but my real love of hip-hop music and rap music Yeah, was cultivated. Yeah by that early to mid 90s Dr. Dre Snoop Dogg the best biggie Poc Wu Tang And I'm a little bit older than Scott a couple years. So I I was already listening to NWA public enemy iced tea but I'm say so to Poc wasn't my He wasn't like if the first guy that that I was really into but I felt like he was the best But when he came out I was like, well, this this is the best shit I used to listen to digital underground. I knew about Poc before he became Poc I remember some of my one of my buddies coming to high school. I was 15 years old 14 or 15 Maybe I wasn't even high school at that point and he's like, oh, remember, you know to Poc from digital underground He's got his own album and I remember getting going somewhere and listening to it Yeah, and I was from that point forward. I was kind of a diehard to Poc fan. So So Tupac Suspects that either as you point out either they knew about it or at the very least didn't didn't either were they either were Invested in it. Yeah got a piece of it, right or they knew about it and kept their mouth. So either way He's he's hella pissed. Yeah, so this is how it this is how it eventually Gets into this mutates into this East Coast West thing not just the thing of like of like Poc against upset with puffy and and biggie so the 1996 sold short awards in 95 95 was 95 that was okay So that was but that that was one of the first the thing that happened was August of 95 Right where we're that were there's a crowded Where they were in New York, I'm pretty sure no the the the first incident is in At least according to this book labyrinth By Randall Sullivan, but maybe even thing of the soul train awards this will the soul train awards according to this chronology chronology is What is what happens first and that's in LA where biggie shouts out Brooklyn and the death wasn't the same It wasn't this I thought it was the same night because I'm pretty sure biggie Shouts out Brooklyn Should gets on stage and says if you want to be a rapper and not have your producer all up in the video Or I come to death row and at the same. I'm pretty sure the same night Snoop Dogg gets on stage and they start booing him and he said oh you guys don't have you don't have any love for the West Coast that wasn't that didn't happen I think but that's the that's the next event. That's in New York. Okay, September. Okay. Okay. That's which is which is where The point was the shitty attitude towards snoop and then was in response to biggie getting booed at the soul train awards a Little bit a little earlier. Yeah, but in both cases the entourage is bump into and get into it and Where you know, you can look at the whole thing like f you and the n-word everything going back and forth and so it's now The over my overall point is it's becoming this kind of cancer where it's not just One dude pissed at another dude. It's becoming record labels pissed at each other and Regions and it should be noted At this point in August and September of 95 Tupac is locked up. Oh, right isn't interjected into this until October, right? So Pac goes to prison. I think for eight nine months on a Sexual assault I think a weapons charge and a sexual assault charge And involving some of the people by the way who probably were the ones who arranged for his shooting. Yeah Haitian Haitian Jack and that's that right and He Cannot afford an appeal bond because it's like a two million dollar appeal bond So, I mean I analogize it kind of like if you're An MBA owner and you've had a couple championships Like, you know if sugar's the MBA owners had some championships with Pac or sorry He has some championships with dr. Dre and snoop and you're looking for that next superstar Mm-hmm and and shook says well I can go to prison and get him Mm-hmm, and I can if I can raise the two million which it was pretty easy I think for for sugar do he goes to prison has all the leverage in any contract negotiations Gifts Tupac to sign a very bad Recording contract Gets him out and Tupac goes on I you know Is alive for the night for another like 10 months or 11 months and he just goes on a recording spree I mean he's recording every day You know 20 songs a day or whatever. That's why he's had so much posthumous. Yeah releases But it's by the time we reach September 96 You've reached a point that Pac doesn't want to be a death row anymore Pac is starting his own sub label called euthanasia and he has Chainware made for it. I believe he was that night wearing that chain for the first time That night and there was I don't know if I want I don't know if I can say an argument I know that there was provocative Conversations between Pac and shook about what Pac's future was at death row, right and also and also Pac was made it clear that when he was doing movies He did not want death row to have any representation when he right in terms of repping him or and I think I think one of the Which should do not take right very well. He wanted everything. He wanted a piece of it. He was a mob boss Yeah, you're we have a piece of you whether you do movies television rap music, right? Right, and I think there was another element where You know Pac is Going at that breakneck pace in from October of 95 to when he died in September of 96 From what I've read and from people I've spoken to part of that breakneck pace was to get through the contract Yes, to get enough material for shook to have his contracts worth of month or of Singles and records right and then he can go off and do his own stuff and sure doesn't have any more piece of it Right and and it's you got to dig into it because Some of the guys in the outlaws who were that was to pox other group that he was involved in And actually some of those guys aren't around anymore either but um One of them was actually was killed. It was one of the witnesses to the murder and was killed a month later, but but um Some of the guys who were still around pushed back against that narrative and They they say just for the record. I don't know. I wasn't there that that no to pox was ride or die I was shook and like and that and that people are overstating Like sort of pock wanting to get away right from shook. So we we just put it out there. Yeah, we don't know But some other interesting things happening around this time Before pock gets out of prison um The dog pound which is on death row snoop dogs grew Um release a song called new york new york where they went to I think they shot They shot they shot it in new york, which is provocative. Yeah, and biggie goes on the radio there and says This is where the location is New yorkers go tell them what's up. And so there's a drive by shooting. They shoot up the this the um Whatever you call it the fucking what do you call it? Where they're filming? What do you call the location? Shoot up the set. Yeah shoot up the set. Um, so so then you have you have Threats happening on both sides in this case an actual shooting um Pockets out of jail and he's very Vocal about his hate and and very antagonistic antagonistic in both in interviews and in his songs. Yeah, right hit him up I mean just uh, he starts off the song hit him up. I fucked your wife. You fat motherfucker The start of the song. Yeah, that that's pretty antagonistic So so there's a there's a lot of heat and let's not Let's not I mean I believe he did sleep with his wife and faith evans. That's faith evans, you know played into this whole thing She was upset with biggie for being unfaithful to her and there was a time in the months leading up to Uh I don't know if it was the months or it at some point in 95. I believe Uh or or 90s late 95 or early 96 Faith evans runs into tupac at a party in la and it even takes a picture with him Yeah, yeah, you can yeah, it's famous. It's a famous picture And I think the I think that then hit him up came out in the spring of 96 So I think another interesting thing to point out here Um in terms of trying to figure out who who ends up killing pock Is in addition to some of the back and forth. Fuck you, you know, we're we'll come after you whatever This is an interesting quote from puffy who says The you know the the core of his anger at us is about that recording studio shooting and puffy says pock ain't mad at the n words that shot him He knows where they're at He knows who shot him if you ask him he knows and everybody in the street knows and he's not stepping to them Because he knows he can't get away with that shit What would just mean Haitian jet would mean Haitian jack Who was a hardcore gangster big drug killer? Yeah, who was also an informant. Yeah and was protected. Yeah, right, so so that's and that's interesting because um If that's true Then there's this notion that Tupac's anger toward bad boy, which was puffy's record label and biggie and all those guys was Unfounded It was kind of a false flag. It felt right and so um And then biggie puts out the song who shot you right right which I mean you Biggie, I remember, you know tried to play the uh, I wrote this and recorded this way before any of this happened And it had nothing to do well, but the fact that you put it out, right when things were were scorching hot, right? It clearly stoked the flames. Yeah, I think I think uh And tupac claimed Who knows but he claimed that he heard stuff in prison that Confirmed his suspicions that puffy and biggie knew about it. Yeah, um, so Whether he thought they set him up or like you say at the very least they didn't they didn't warn him He he's pissed off about it. But puffy puffy takes exception to that and says no We had nothing to do with that and the real dudes who did that You're not fucking with them because right there you won't get away with it and There's a there's another theory by the way that It was supposed to be a mugging That went bad Uh that hasian jack and who was the other talking about the 94 squad studios the original shooting that Jimmy henchman and right they wanted to send a message to him that they were going to steal his chain and shit Um and that pock tried to pull his gun and he might have and he ended up shooting himself in the balls So that it wasn't actually a hit. Yeah, it was a it was a robbery to send a message and it went That he might have even just shot himself Um, but it's just kind of interesting details surrounding but bring us up or let's go back to the night Yeah, the allegation is and it and it seems to be confirmed by kiffy d himself As pock and shug are making their way To the club at the intersection of flamingo and coval kiffy d in his entourage which included baby lane anison who was his nephew and the guy that got stomped out an hour or two earlier Come upon The the the convoy of death row Vehicles with two pock and shug at the front of it. They heard I guess some girls that were running up to the car and trying to get autographs There was a picture taken. Yeah in the seconds before he's Shot and according to kiffy d His nephew baby lane Pulls up. Uh, they pull their their Cadillac up to uh, I think it was shug's bends Uh, I I think they're a beamer. I think it was a beamer, but I I can't remember and baby lane anderson Uh is chupox killer unloads his clip I think it was a beamer, but and pock who's in the front seat A front passenger seat Shugs driving pock tries to jump in the back As the hits occurring and doesn't make it and shug is grazed by a bullet on his head and then the the Cadillac which has four people in it kiffy d Baby lane anison a guy named bubble up who ends up being killed In los angeles at a I think at a disco And then another guy I'm I'm I can't think of that guy's name right now, but But within two years, baby lane is killed So baby lane has killed in the summer of 98 He had been in that he'd been investigated as the shooter in this He denied it said that he was a big tupac fan Um, love this music would have never heard even doesn't tell on shug about the assault Right because shug is in trouble for violating his parole or his probation. Yeah and and and baby face anison actually says No, he was trying to break it up. Yeah, which The video footage doesn't really To me and lend yourself to believing that narrative. So I think that was sort of a no snitching kind of thing So you're have all the speculation you have a bunch of you know, what I call fallout Murders, um, if you go to, you know, my gang's report website plug plug hit the siren benny, uh, and you put in a search Um for for tupac murder you can find I did a a number of stories and timelines on The number of murders that occurred after Tupac's and biggie's Murders and again, this was this was something that was very real and lasted for years after that these murders that took place in 96 97 In the 2000s kiffy d gets caught up in a drug case And cops a plea and as part of that plea deal He debriefs On what he knows about the tupac murder And gets immunity for it and points the finger at his nephew and tells of All the circumstances leading up to it. He kind of I think makes it, um He says in his book basically this was this was real life gangster shit. And if you try to uh, you know You act like that towards guys like us who are real gangsters You're gonna find out why they call us real gangsters. Well, even even if you look at some of the interviews with those blood OG's Uh The mob pyru guys They will even say that pock was in over his head and that they would warn him at least according to them that they would warn him And shug To you need to make sure pock understands that he's an artist and an entertainer and he's getting in over his head It was a talking shit hanging out with gang bangers and for people that study tupac It it's undisputed that this Uh persona that he takes on in the last couple years of his life Is a ginormous overcompensation Um of the real kind of tupac that you saw in his teenage years and in his first year's rapping Where he was not someone who embraced a thug life He was not someone that was ultra aggressive or ultra provocative or ultra, um antagonistic to the point of uh, almost You know wanting to be hurt He had all these incidents when he was a recording artist run-ins with the law run-ins with gang bangers After he had his first music contract He had no run-ins with the law before he was a rapper and an actor Yeah, I'm with other people. Yeah, I would say that, um Another way of looking at it is that it wasn't so much overcompensating, but that prison made him. Oh, yeah, that too I'm sure that that yeah, harden them and harden them and jaded him um So but but but definitely right that wasn't I mean he was he was before that he was a very Creative soul artistic guy. He was in all sorts of kinds of music. He liked rock rock music folk music He was he was a genuine artist. He was in a poetry reading philosophy Yeah, he was not like a what the thug life stuff happened Later, no, it was influenced by the people he surrounded himself right and I I firmly believe and I've heard other people Say this so I don't want to take credit for it But I firmly believe that tupac had never been killed We would be talking about tupac right now as one of the great actors Yeah, and creators directors producers. I think so Um, he was that prolific. Yes, like this this isn't someone that would have just you know, he was 24 when he died Uh, I can't imagine what he would have created into his 30s and 40s and 50s um He was engaged to cadata jones Who was uh quincy jones's? Daughter and I know that in the year leading up to his uh murder He became very close with quincy jones cutie three produced some of all eyes on me That's quincy's son and I can't imagine with that as your mentor He only mentored him for less than a year So I can't imagine going forward if if he would add quincy jones as his father-in-law Um, how far he could have gone outside of the yeah, and he's a point out. He was already doing movies Yeah, he was our some great tupac movies if you've never seen him juice poet justice I love gang related even though it's kind of a bad movie. I think it's yeah gridlock gridlock is a great kind of It takes place in detroit. It's kind of it's a so kind of a social uh commentary Well, also pock was very We're getting sidetracked a little bit here, but he was also very Socially conscious and and a political revolution here. I mean his mother Well, he comes from the black pamphlet of chicor with tula chicor his stepdad just died A couple weeks ago. So but so he was he was he was born He was born in the middle of a revel in a as a part of the revolution. Yeah um He so the one thing I want to also add I guess in that way. He's always I guess in that one Maybe I'm wrong. I guess in that way He was already kind of naturally antagonistic because he comes from you know the blood of black panthers Well, I would say I would say militant. Um He definitely had that pedigree Which is not necessarily mean thug life though. Um and then later on he sort of kind of merges it what what like Michael Eric Dyson calls like thug revolutionary where where he starts becoming sort of like Uh a mutation of both the kind of social conscious political kind of thing with with the mix with the with the gangsta stuff but but one thing I want to add here because I keep on going back to the the puffy guys puff daddy and biggie and those guys is Because they knew that shug was connected to the bloods When puffy and those guys were in la they would hire the crips To be their security detail and I think even in new york They had some connection to some crips and in new york They also had a connection to another group that we've talked about quite often On this podcast the plaque mafia family who hadn't fully coalesced at that point but um I know that there was you know startup cash that was given to puffy uh From from people that were connected to bmf for bad boy And at that point in time 96 97 Terry uh big meach's brother southwest tea is living in la Yeah, so the both record labels have some sketchy Yeah relationships, but I I think why it's it's interesting to point out the the crip connection specifically the la crips is It lends itself to this theory that Shooting pock was not a spontaneous reaction to the beat down Which leaves some people to believe that the beat down was actually kind of a uh a facade and a setup Well, the anderson went there to know that it would provoke them to right to assault him Yes, right, uh, and then that leads us to some of the reporting that has been done. Um in the la papers At first I had a hard time believing it but uh the further along we get I'm more open to it that This murder came from the crips on some type of either A contract or a tacit agreement Uh from bigging puffy Um and that key fidi has told people or other people in key fidi's orbit have told people that key fidi was familiar with puffy that puffy and key fidi would uh socialize in la and new york that there was some type of Conversation within a meeting or within a meal Uh in 96 Where where puffy was complaining about shug and pock and how He either wanted them dead or would be happy if they were dead or I don't know if the word dead came up They wanted them out of the way or something Maybe that it wasn't necessarily hey, I am going to pay you x amount to do this But the bloods and key or sorry the crips and the key fidi crew took it to mean if we do this We can get x y and z and that they they did it on the belief that puffy wanted it done And then went back to puffy and said okay, we did it now. You owe us money Um and and puffy pushed back on that basically saying I never told you to do it You misinterpreted me. I ain't paying anything one another another interpretation is that uh that the bad boy people felt That this was a preemptive that they they felt that That shug was going to try to have them killed. Yeah, and and that they needed to they needed to hit them first Um, so I again with speculative according to one informant and one of the stories that I believe was published in the la times And again, I have a hard time believing this but That puffy gave the gun Yeah to the to the kill team saying I want you to shoot him with this gun They had to walk that but then the newspaper had to walk it back Yeah, I find it difficult to believe to um and uh, so you you had a situation where It's you know, it's it you still don't know Um, but you can what we know for sure Is that there are connections between the people that? We believe killed jupac At least tangentially To big Ian pup Yeah, and then and then the the what we have to add to this is of course As scott pointed out there's subsequent violence after the murder of of tupac on the streets of la Between the bloods and the and the cribs, but the most the most High-profile murder of course is the murder of biggie small which happens five months later four months later and then and then you have these one theory Which is five months that that that if if the cribs were pissed off about being double crossed That they took out biggie I don't buy that. I think it's probably people in the death row camp that that in retaliation for for tupac's and you can and If you deep dive it you can find connections between Suspects in the biggie hit. Yes to death row. Yeah to the Corrupt parts of the la pd. Yeah guys that were blood affiliated Yeah, and it's it's challenging I'm not trying to defend the law enforcement here because that's actually they have a black guy It's it's I mean that's something we could discuss to sort of a meta level um, but it is challenging in a way because A lot of these guys end up dead in the in the subsequent 20 years, which is what I kind of feel if I'm gonna play amateur 25 whatever years it's amateur psychiatrist here with What's going on in key pd's head over these last couple years? I need to take math lessons It's been what 27 years now Uh, 26 I'm like 20 years. Oh 27 27 27. Jesus christ biggie. Well, I said we were talking about biggie. It's been 27 Go ahead. I'm sorry. Sorry to interrupt finish your thought. No wait biggie Uh, I can't count nine. What's 96 to 2023. That's what I mean. That's what I'm embarrassed 97 to 2003 Is 28 Yeah, so it's almost 30 years at this point But the point is in that whatever almost 30 years almost everybody Affiliated with this case is dead except for puffy key pd and maybe Which I can't I think emboldened key pd Feeling like I can say whatever I want. There's nobody here to contradict me. Yeah, right And I'm confident that they're never gonna find a gun that I'm Hiding if you believe he's hiding the murder weapon, right and another sort of Footnote to this which which our audience maybe that's more interested in the italian lcn stuff is a real Pivotal figure in this narrative is david kenner. Who is the official lawyer for a shug? Hock, I mean, I'm sorry got snoop out of a murder case. So got snoop a queen of a murder case Right, well, I think johnny cochran too. I think was part of that legal team David kenner is considered like the superstar defense attorney and Allegedly, he's a connected lawyer in new york and specifically usually it's he's he's Identified as having connections to the genovese family I've never been able to corroborate that Again, like jimmy said, we haven't been able to corroborate this but the press Back then would refer to him as like an in-house counsel for the genovese. Yeah, he was like on retainer for anybody in the genovese Yeah, that was put out a lot. I I can't find anything that that backs that up But it could be true that boost cutler was for for guy for the gambino's Yeah, and and one of the reasons why I think it's an interesting footnote is That's precisely why shug wanted him on his team because shug loved the mafia stuff He lived in lefty rosenthal's house ace rosting the movie that you saw and casino Yeah, like that house that you see that ace rosting is living on yeah after that movie buys that house right and as that's the house that they're going to before the shooting right and and so He loves that whole mystique. He would he would have the the death row guys They would have to watch bugsy in the godfather movie and how did death row get started? It got started through harry o michael harris One of the biggest drug dealers in the history of los angeles and he was Not just a silent partner People didn't realize at that time everyone thought shug was the final say shug wasn't the final say harry o was not initially but then but then sugar and then they put and then they pushed harry o out And then he ends up suing them. He ends up suing shug but um, but also um, he also puts shug also hires spolatro as his lawyer No, goodman Goodman and spolatro. He spolatro's son. Oh, okay. Okay. He also hired for obvious reasons. Yeah Because he loved casino. He loved that film so um You know, we'll see what happens in terms of um, the you know, what if if they can um Arrest anyone in this case. I I think it is a black eye on law enforcement both local law enforcement in california and Embarrassing that it's 30 years later federal level. Um, I said to jimmy off uh off camera And I remember talking to my father about this over the years My dad can't wrap his brain around why this is a big deal and it's like well To bring it to you know in to his level. What what if in the 1960s frank sinatra and dean martin gotten to some big Uh, you know dispute and they and their camps end up killing each other You think 30 years after that we would have had no answers. No, it's it's I don't buy that so One thing we want to do is is talk about the the finish up here the cultural significance of this And and I have this sort of hypothesis that like people who are like in scott's dad's age Don't quite appreciate it. But then also younger people. I have a lot of students in my criminology classes Unfortunately, the reality now is they're so used to rappers getting killed that they're sort of like well How is it? What's the big deal doesn't this just happen all the time? And I would say a not back then but b Pock and biggie are on another level in my opinion as artists Um, and you can't compare them to it's like a beat. It's like they're the Beatles They're the Beatles one of the middle guy who gets they're the Beatles or they're duke allington or they're Who gets killed as a any half Elvis Presley? I mean So we've got we could do an actual experiment here because we have someone who's in the middle Someone who's older than my college students But younger than us. So so ben the producer engineer What what are your thoughts? Is this is this a big deal this story? Is it still a big deal or are we just geeking out? It's definitely still a big deal. Um To park and biggie or uh icons in the rap community people still consider them Uh, the best all time A lot of people still have them in their top five um Among the millennial gen z generation People younger than me who listened to you know, a little baby and all that Uh, they couldn't care but people my age Even though, you know people my I was One and almost two years old. Uh when tupac got killed um We still Looked into it, you know what i'm saying. Um Know about it Know that biggie got shot stuff like that so, uh They are two people that still transcend generations and I think it is important news um The problem is In our news cycle, you know Every other second something else happens on twitter. Yeah, I think that's more of the reason why it's not as big Contextualize it when they both died the internet had just started. Yeah. Yeah, there was no social media. No cable was, you know Was around and you had a you know, a nice selection on on television, but there was That was the only place you went it was still it wasn't we weren't at the point in the 80s where we were kind of like You still had just three, you know abc mbc cbs You were now in the point where you had more options, but it was still your media consumption Was very there was a very narrow lane and you got what people gave you What mtv was giving you what your radio station was giving you it's not like today was decentralized So, I mean pock and biggie with me, you know in my teenage years They were so and then same with dr. Dre and and and uh Snoop snoop. I mean they were so Ubiquitous You're popular. Yeah. Yeah, and I and I will say that just I mean probably no one cares, but just to be autobiographical here um When I talk about the these tragic losses in the 90s For me, you know, a lot of a lot of people It was the the suicide of Kurt Cobain that that really hit them personally and I can understand why I'm a nirvana fan But for me that the the tupac murder hit me a lot It hit me a lot a hundred times harder I was a way bigger tupac fan than I was Nirvana and I say that as you guys who watch this watch our show I'm a fucking heavy metal dude. So like I you know, I I love rock music. I live it. I I breathe it um, especially heavy music, but uh, just as comparing those two I'm a way bigger tupac fan than than I was a nirvana fan. So Cobain didn't have that effect I mean, I think honestly, I was in terms of that type of music because I have a very eclectic taste Um, I was big into pearl jam if eddie vetter Had committed suicide at the same time. Kurt Cobain did it probably would have hit me harder Um, I we can go down this revital off-camera. Uh, I'm not a huge nirvana fan. I recognize their significance Yeah, um I like a couple of their songs a lot, but in general I'm not a ginormous fan of their catalog. I don't go deep with them either. Uh, but uh, Yes, I mean the the tupac and biggie murder I can remember where I was when I heard the news. I can remember how much It affected me. I I'm an embarrassed to to to say this, but I'll admit it to to my audience I believe on the 10 year anniversary I was in Las Vegas and me and my buddy went and bought some, uh Liquor and and went went to the corner went to the corner of club flamingo and coval And I this is again, it shows you kind of how sometimes, uh I thought I'm like, oh, it's a 10 year anniversary. There's gonna be all these people out there There's gonna be this huge, you know group of mourners. I'll be the only ones there We're at the corner. I mean, do you guys realize that this is where tupac was killed 10 years ago today? Yeah, and that's in 10 years. I mean that that's that wasn't long, you know Yeah, that was in 2006 or something, but I mean we I just um, I love the death row stuff Not trying to say it wasn't tragic. I I never Was a huge like biggie fan or the east coast stuff. I mean, I loved wu tang But like, um, I was we the guys I ran with man. We rep death row I started as a huge pot guy and then I went to college it in in indiana And it doesn't sound like it but a big group of new yorkers go to iu And I became friends with a lot of new yorkers Maybe in the last year or two of biggie, you know, he was around for I think three or four years Yeah, yeah, and that's the other thing both careers were pretty short seems like they were like around forever But they they got me in I remember my first couple months of college them kind of inundating me with biggie and wu tang and tribe and Nas And jz and they they got me to appreciate the east coast But I like you're saying I was all west coast. Yeah until I was 17 or 18 Yeah, I always I always prefer even now I I listen to I mean, I there's some exceptions I love wu old school public enemy you see on the show I rep those bands with my with the groups with my shirts, but these shirts But uh to this day to me, you can't beat the death row stuff Tupac, Snoop, Dre the chronic can't beat it Just a couple of fact correction. Tupac was 25 when he passed. Thank you. And um, it was a bmw 7 series. Okay. See this is what we need like on, um Pti they used to have the errors and omissions. Oh, yeah, because I'm getting checked, you know We'll deal with this in another video, but I'm getting checked right and left sometimes on some of our videos And I want I want to be checked sure so but sometimes, you know, when you when you have all this Information in the old noggin sometimes you can get the signals cross so well I hope the I hope they can bring some closure on these cases to the To the loved ones that are left. I mean tupac's mother's dad I is biggie's mom. I don't know. I'm not sure if she's alive either I thought biggie's mom was alive and tupac's mom. Yeah, pox mom is dead if pox mom's dead I think view I think veletta walls is dead now, too I think so too, but um, but there are still some loved ones and friends And other family and then also just for the fans and just for the justice system like it. It's, uh, you know for all these unsolved murders um For these but Lutulu Shakur who raised pock. He died in prison a couple of weeks ago. Yeah um And pock was again, he was raised in this revolutionary environment I mean his mom was a major player in the black panthers and then Mutulu Shakur and Geronimo Pratt who were were pox main father Uh father figures these were I mean these weren't like Small-time players in the black panthers. These are icons now in revolutionary left-wing politics and um And then assata Shakur is another iconic figure around that revolutionary left and I I mean the real left not fucking liberals I'm talking about the real the real left So um, but anyhow, I hope people enjoy this episode. I had fun doing this We'll continue to think about bringing you a mix of of content And uh, again, please like subscribe follow us. I'm jimmy buchelato. Scott Bernstein. We're out