 or by junior high I had friends that at the time I didn't understand, but they were doing hindsight being what it is, but I had friends that self-injured even back in the late 80s and that wasn't around that wasn't discussed. I mean, self-injury has been around for millennia, but it just wasn't something on the radar in middle school. Did you find out that they were self-injuring or did they come and say, I'm doing this to myself? What was, do you remember one of them? Yeah, I noticed the marks on their arms and just comments they would make and it just didn't register then because they didn't understand what that was. But then hindsight as I started to get into this particular specialty area, the light bulb started to go off and go, oh my gosh, there are a lot of people that I'm thinking about now that I went to school with that would either meet the profile of someone that would engage in that behavior or as I said, two individuals that were actually my friends. Hi everybody, I'm Peter Diaz. I'm the CEO of the Workplace Mental Health Institute and today I'm very pleased to be bringing Laurie so you can meet her. Hi Laurie. Hello. Laurie is one of our workplace mental health specialists for the US and besides that she is not only very good at what she does in the workplace mental health arena but she is an authority, an international authority in NSSI, non-suicidal self-injury. That's a mouthful. We used to call it self-harm, more simple. Yes. But you have authored quite a number of books. I believe you're on number five now, book number five. So you obviously know what you're talking about as bare self-harm and one thing that we do know about our trainers and facilitators is that they have a passion for mental health and in particular in your case for self-harm. I'm going to call it self-harm or NSSI. That's fine. I hope it doesn't offend anyone but that's what I mean, self-harm. But we are interested in knowing a little bit about you and how you came about being in contact with your mental health and really turning mental health into a passion in your life because I've heard you speak and I've seen your books and I can vouch for your passion for mental health. So please, Laurie, tell us how did you choose mental health as a career or did it choose you? I think it's a little bit of both actually because by the time I was in elementary school, so about age 11, 12, friends just would come to me with their situations with problems and I guess I had a listening ear. I was usually pretty calm and I was able to ask questions and see things from a different perspective and throw out some recommendations and I guess they seemed to work. No one came back to me and said, that was horrible what you told me. That's my remembrance. And then it just sort of continued through school and in middle school in the States, we oftentimes take vocational tests to see what your interests are, what you might be good at, as you start to think high school and beyond. And I remember at that point going, no, it can't be that simple. I don't know if I want to be a counselor. I just I'm going to buck against it because I was a teenager and that's what majors do. And sure enough, the results came back and said, yes, these are the things that you would be well suited for and counseling was on it. So it's like, okay, and high schools start to take these psychology classes. They were fascinating to me. This became more and more involved in the field and the interest and then college it was just so it was just such a natural progression. It was so easy to understand the material and grad school and they just very continued from there. But yeah, I guess in many ways it chose me and I chose it. And I'm very grateful and humbled by all the opportunities that have come with it. So let's go back a little bit into the beginning that that little Lori in school being approached by by who I mean, what kind of kids were approaching you? A lot of them were my friends, just other little girls that were having friend drama or maybe they know a guy they liked drama or by junior high, I had friends that at that time I didn't understand what they were doing hindsight being what it is. But I had friends that self injured even back in the late 80s and that wasn't around that wasn't discussed. I mean, self injury has been around for millennia, but it just wasn't something on the radar in middle school. Did you find out that they were self injuring or did they come and say, I'm doing this to myself? What was you remember one of them? I noticed. Yeah, I noticed the marks on their arms and just comments they would make. And it just didn't register things to understand what that was. But then hindsight as I started to get into this particular specialty area, the light bulb started to go off and go, Oh my gosh, there are a lot of people that I'm thinking about now that I went to school with that would either meet the profile of someone that would engage in that behavior. Or, you know, as I said, two individuals that were actually my friends that I know engaged in it. And I just I didn't understand what it was at the time. Right. So how old were you at the time? About 13, 14. Well, that's a young age. It's very young. What was your reaction at seeing one of your friends doing something like that? What went through your mind? Well, I thought it was obviously sad and knew that, wow, they must have a rough whole life. There must be something going on. And I knew a little bit of that. I knew that they didn't have the same upbringing that I did that I was very blessed with the parents I had. There was an abuse in the household there. You know, we had food, we had all the necessities and love and such. And I knew that some of my friends were not as blessed to have that upbringing or that environment. And so I just figured that was part of it, that that's why they may have been, you know, struggling the way that they were and thought it's like, well, I'm just I'm going to be with friends with them in our works. They're my friends. And just because they're doing that doesn't mean I should stop being their friend. Right. And were they asking you for advice at the time or that kind of like in conversation? I mean, I'm thinking about parents that are watching this and they've got a daughter or a son that's about 13, 12, 14. And one of their friends is cutting or one of their friends is burning themselves or they're some kind of other kind of self harm. How what would you tell those parents that are listening? Well, and it is discussed much more now 30 something years later. And unfortunately, yeah, a lot of middle school kids, junior high kids, they know probably at least one person that engages in the behavior. So people are very aware of it. And even if they don't personally know someone or a classmate that's doing it, I guarantee they've probably been exposed to it through social media, or through movies or music that they listen to, because it's that much more pervasive than what it used to be, especially within the last 10 years, the increase in references to it. But for parents, it's allowing the child to start with some of that conversation, because I think parents a lot of times get panicked and they go, Oh my gosh, I don't want my kid hanging out with that kid, because they're going to be a bad influence. And to then stop that friendship is, while understandable, is not advisable. Because I mean, here's your child's friend who's already struggling. They already probably has a lot of self-esteem issues and things terribly of themselves. And now you're going to take away one of their support systems that will very well be the spiral. That could be that significant event that leads to a suicidal thought or an attempt. And so we are talking about some very serious implications into don't make emotionally based decisions, talk with a professional, talk with your child, get educated, and then come up with a decision. But it is talking with your child and asking, well, what do you think of this? How do you feel when you know your friend is doing it? Yeah. What do you think helped you when you were a little girl, really 13, it's a little girl, to protect you from doing the same behaviors? What do you think were you protective? I mean, I know it's a while ago, not too long ago, but let's see if we can go back to that time. So we get to know you a little bit more. It's in junior high as a grade, I was in athletics and had a group of friends and just the physical activity. And I'm sure that the physical activity part was something that definitely helps with depression and anxiety. It helps with the whole magnitude of things. And yeah, it played into a competitive side that I did not know that I had. But athletes have a little bit different mindset. I was also an inquirer, so I had a group of friends that were also inquired with me and we got to have a lot of fun. And oftentimes, my friends were in both extracurricular activities. And it is really about that quality, not quantity piece. And I had some good quality friends that they weren't doing behaviors that you shouldn't be doing. They weren't drinking or smoking or sneaking out or doing other activities. And some of that's just because you're drawn with what's familiar. And so I was raised in an environment where my parents didn't smoke, my parents didn't do drugs. I rarely ever saw them have any alcohol unless there's that social event or as a celebratory thing, but I definitely never saw them intoxicated. And there's also a spiritual part too, is that my spiritual and religious upbringing said like, hey, if you want a quality life, if you want to see the big picture of things, then these are the guidelines, these are the recommendations. So there's a whole culmination of things coming together. Right. Okay. Great. So I imagine you were brought up in in a Christian household. Or is that a? Yes. Good assumption. Okay. So the rival would have played a little bit of a guiding principle there. Okay, so you had exercise. It seems like you were not how can I say, you had a circle of friends, you didn't have a single friend, did you? From what you're saying, why sports in a team? So you think that maybe protected you? Like I see sometimes teenagers, especially early on, if they're not fitting in, they tend to either isolate or have just one friend or two friends. And then the association tends to be fairly strong. But it sounds like you had a group of friends. And was that you think looking back, of course, do you think that was a protective factor as well? Yes, because the, I mean, is probably a handful and I had like a best friend. And then I had several friends that would be, you know, good friends, but they weren't in the best friend category. And then I had a lot of acquaintances that, you know, we were friendly and there was a good relationship, but didn't necessarily hang out with them. But it was good. And then, of course, everyone in middle school has the group of people that are just the jerks and snobby and, you know, their own bullies of sorts. I mean, I don't think anyone avoids that. That's, you know, at some point in your life, especially in middle school, that's going to happen. So, but because I had enough of those other supports, it helped balance out the bullying and just the snobbery and things of that nature. Because I started to understand a little bit more of who I want to be as a person in my core. And I just kept having this reinforcement of it by the people I chose to hang out with. We had that in common. We had the same morals, the same ethics, the concept of right and wrong. And then I also had my youth group at church that was, you know, there's a handful of teenagers there that I connected with. So I do think being involved in some type of social group is definitely a protective factor. Right. And did you ever find out from your friends that were suffering from or doing, you know, that coping activity, the self-harm that was behind some of the problems? Was there a theme, a recurring theme that you could see at the time? I don't know on the recurrent part. I got the sense that for one girl, well actually, the two girls that come to mind, I know that one of them did have some type of physical abuse history. I don't know the details of it. We never got into a digital things would be said here and there. The other girl, and I don't know if I fully believe her or not, you know, I wasn't going to be a detective, but she said that she was part of a cult, a satanic cult. Right. And, you know, whether she truly was or not, I mean, for her to even, you know, just say something like that goes to, there's something else going on here. But I get the sense that her home life wasn't the best in nature. So I don't know if it necessarily was emotional neglect or if there was some physical neglect going on. But I dare say my guess is she probably had some type of trauma background as well. Right. Poor thing here. Okay. So that seems like a very solid ground. You were grounded. You were protected. And at the same time, you could offer some friendship to this young women. That's very nice. And how did that, what's your career through life been like? You mentioned something about bullying before we go into the career aspect. Was there something about bullying? Was there a lot of bullying where you were at the time? Or maybe not a lot. Maybe just the normal stuff. Who knows how much is a lot when you're a kid. Kids can be very cruel. Yeah. It's, I mean, the bullying started when I was in fourth grade. So about that, I guess, nine years of age, I think is that timeframe. And it was just this really interesting thing that happened in elementary school, how they're usually constructed in Texas or at least our area is on one side of the building is for kindergarten through third grade and the other side is for fourth, fifth and sixth. And that's changed up since I went through school. And we were all friends and we all hung out and we all did activities. I mean, there's still people that were a little snobby even back then. Everyone had their clothes even in first and second, third grade. But something happened when we switched to the other side of the building. And a lot of these people all of a sudden just turned their back. They became really fast. Yeah. And like, like, I didn't change. I didn't. I'm still me, but they all just sort of made their own little groupings and became very fascinated with high-end designer clothes, you know, Jordash at the time. And, you know, gas being started to pop up. And there were some new faces that entered into our grade at that time that they were affluent. And so it was just that group became this very clickish or click of individuals that if you weren't wearing those clothes and if you didn't look a certain way, then you were the outcast. Well, you know, my parents weren't going to, you know, drop $40 on jeans, which in 1984 that was a lot of money. Yeah. And, you know, I was growing like a weed. And so that creates its own little awkwardness of I was becoming taller than all of the boys and a lot of the girls. And I also had braces. And I was the only one that had braces. Very grateful for the braces now. But yeah, I couldn't do some of the things that our kids did. Like you'd get Jolly Ranch or candy as a treat for doing well in school. I'm like, I can't have that. I have braces. And at one point they had to do the rubber bands to like reshape my jaw to make sure it was a overbiting more and make it go where it should. And so like that's awkward. And so there's like a whole bunch of different things going against me. And yeah, just, you know, the my, you know, last name, my maiden name was the name of a bug. So I mean that doesn't help either. So it's like this whole trifecta of things going on. And as I'm growing the genes weren't keeping up with me. So you'd get the high waters is what we call it, where there's like, yeah, how I had that too. Now it's fashionable. Yeah. And that's right. Yeah. Michael Jackson style. Yeah. So it's like, yes, all these things. And so fourth and fifth grade were really difficult years. And I had to buy two or three really good friends. And, and we're, I ended up being friends with a lot of the outcast kids, the ones that they didn't fit into that frame either. And, and that worked out well, because why it kept me grounded kept me humble. And I think that did influence my desire to be a counselor is to say, there are a lot of people out there that get picked on and they're the outcast of society. And I understand a little bit of what that's like, especially for kids and teens. And just, you know, I developed a heart to say it's like, you know what, there's life beyond school, it gets better. Right. Well, that's very wise for for a kid. That's very good. So looking back, looking back, what, what have you brought into adult life? What, what, because you don't, you don't sound bitter at all. I mean, I can just imagine a young girl having to turn up to school with one of those things in the mouth. I mean, yeah, that would have been hard at the time, but you don't sound bitter. What's, what's going on? What's your secret? Tell us. You know, it's, it's been, you know, different reflection. Some of it is on the spiritual part of just forgiveness and go, you know what, I'm no saint. I'm sure that I bullied people at one type or another because hurt people hurt people. So I know I'm, I was guilty of it in elementary school because no one wants to be the lowest man on the totem pole. So I hope people forgive me for my insensitivities and my stupidity and that. And likewise, I have to be willing to forgive others because nobody's perfect. So there's the element of that and life is too short to be better. And you know what, that I started to realize that people are the way they are because they were influenced that way. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. Well, you just mentioned forgiveness, but the ability to forgive others and the ability to forgive yourself for not knowing any better, you know, because, you know, most people don't realize that we are all bullies. It's just sometimes we don't even see ourselves how we have bullied other people. But true wisdom is when you can look back and say, you know what, even if I don't see it, I'm sure I have. I'm sure I have come across as a bully or I have acted as a bully to someone else. I completely agree with those two points. You need to be able to forgive yourself and others and also be humble enough and arrogant that that's a safety factor later on in life. Of course, when you're a kid, it's very hard to hear that and apply that because of the intensity of the situations, isn't it? So that's beautiful. I'm glad that you got that. And I can tell by your energy. You have this beautiful energy that is not resentful because kids were just being kids. Kids were just being kids. They didn't know any better today. And some of them will be in a situation and we look back and say, I can't believe I did that to Laurier. I can't believe I did that to Peter. Or that kid, maybe don't even remember our names, but I can't believe I did that to that kid. And I hope they're okay. So yeah, it's interesting. I went back to a high school reunion and I remember this, I guess it might have been a 10 year reunion. And a lot of those people that were, you know, whatever ways, knobby or not, I mean, they were like, oh my gosh, it's great to see and giving hugs. I'm like, okay, I'm sort of blindsided here because where was this 10 years ago or 15? But I was grateful for I'm like, I'm so glad that they grew up. I'm so glad that they matured because there were actually still some people that were still acting snobby. And I just laughed at it because I mean, there's nothing else you can do. It's like, you're really seriously acting like we're still in high school and you think that you're so much better. I'm like, this is hysterical to me. I mean, it's pathetic, truly pathetic. But it's also sort of on that funny side of like, some people just, they don't mature. And it's their loss. And that is the sad part is that some people just never grow up. But does it mean that you have to join them in that? Absolutely. Why are we there? Now, I have a question for you. I've prepared for this interview. And you were in college as a professor in college. Is that right? Yes. Were you a professor in college? Tell us a little bit about that. Well, I had this wonderful opportunity. And it's one of those never say never, because when I went through college, it's like, I want to be a teacher. Oh, my gosh, sounds horrible. And then through a series of events, the opportunity was there to be a professor of psychology at two different colleges there in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. And I did love the opportunity. I did it for about two and a half years, teaching mostly psychology 101 classes and some lifespan or developmental psych. And it was great because it's just like, I get really excited sharing that information. But at the same time, because I was a part-time professor, I was still doing the clinical side. So I could bring to my students, this is what we're reading here. And this is how it applies to real life. And here are some case examples and be able to answer a lot of those questions. And in turn, they would ask me questions. I'm like, I don't actually know the answer to that. So it made me look it up. And even within teaching the materials, it's amazing how much that we can forget in such a little time. Or things just don't strike us the same way. And I remember going through and teaching the psychology 101, and you get to the whole classical and operant conditioning piece, which I was really struggled with. And undergrad and like, okay, what is the unconditional response? What is the UCS and UCR and this variable? And then when you have to teach it, the light bulb went off and like, oh my gosh, I understand this now. I know how it all fits together. That's brilliant. And like, why couldn't I have had this when I was in school? It's amazing how much one learns when we when we have to teach other people how to do it or explain it to other people, isn't it? I think it's been said that if you can't explain it, then you don't really know it. So that's that there's a bit of truth in that it is that there's a different kind of knowledge that goes when you've lived it and you have to explain it. Very good. What would you say is the highlight? What has been the highlight of your career? What's the moment in your career you go, yes, I did that? Or is it still to come? I'm sure there's still more to come, but so far, I should say. I've been so blessed with so many different career highlights that it's it's hard to pinpoint one because, you know, becoming fully licensed, that was definitely a highlight. I mean, that was the culmination of so much work, so much, you know, just stress and just, you know, the sacrifice to get to that point. So that was definitely huge to be a full counselor. And then, you know, opening up my own practice of like full going full time into it and doing that first, you know, office lease and then being able to expand it to the the suite that I have with four other counselors that are here as part of Van & Associates. And would say that, yeah, obviously, you know, writing the first book and getting it published and holding it in my hands was huge. Did you smell it? I probably did. I did. Yeah, I'm sure that I did. I was like, oh my gosh, I did this. It was so surreal. And, you know, the second and third and fourth and, you know, I did a fifth book. It's not so much on the self injury piece of the list to it, but it's sort of a one off about political correctness and just sort of the interesting implications of it from a psychological perspective and legal and financial and all the rest. But yeah, each of those it's like, okay, I did this. Wow. Like, that's my name on the cover. And it's sort of weird. So all of those have been different highlights and would say, of course, you know, doing the Dr. Phil interview was pretty huge. That was a significant highlight factor that EO is beyond surreal to do it. And then his response was just like, I'm tongue tied. I'm like, okay, thank you. Say next. Like, oh my gosh, this is happening. So that was a huge significant one. And from that, lots of opportunities have come from being a keynote speaker at a state conference to speaking, you know, nationally and internationally. Now, but yeah, there's more to come. Guys, to wrap up that time together, I just want to ask you one thing out of your five books. And I know they're all your babies. Which one would you say is the one that you like the most? Probably the first one, the caregivers guide to self injury, because it's represented so much. The caregivers guide to self injury. Yes. Right. And imagine that's available in Amazon or people can get it online? Yes. Yeah, you can definitely purchase it through my website or through Amazon, you can have it as a readable Kindle version. And it's available internationally because I have seen where people in Australia and France and England and all different parts of the world can purchase it. And it's like, and that's surreal in itself. It's like, oh my gosh, like my book is on four continents. It's like, how did this happen? It's in the Trinity College or Trinity University in Dublin. It's in their library because I mean, I gave it to them and they're like, yeah, I'll take this. I'm like, yeah. So cool. All right. And then you're, it's under the author, Laurie Van, V-A-N-N? Yes. V-A-N-N. So people can go and check out your books online or your website. Is your website loryvan.com? I have a couple of different websites depending on what it is. So the loryvan.com gets into the speaking and the different media interviews I've given. Van, or vanassociates.com is where you can also order the book. And that's the counseling website. And then I've founded the Institute for Non-Suicidal Self-Injury and that has its own website. And then all of those different things are on Instagram too. That's very cool. So maybe you want to send me those links and we can put it down in the description later on for people that can check you out and they can check your book. Very good. Thank you very much, Laurie. It's been so nice to spend half an hour with you. I mean, I met you quite a number of years ago. Seems like so far away pre-COVID. Pre-COVID when we were young and innocent. And here we are catching up on very, very far apart parts of the world, but united with one common thing. It's a lot of people. A lot of people and a lot of recovery for people. So that it's a privilege for me to talk to you, Laurie, and to have you as part of the WMHI global team as well. We're very proud of that. Okay. So with that, I shall leave you and thank you very much, Laurie. And please, to all our listeners, if you want to check Laurie out or buy one of her books, Laurie is L-O-R-I. Check one of her books. Please check the description and buy her books because they're good. Laurie knows what she's talking about. I can vouch for that. Thank you, Laurie, and goodbye. Thank you. Hi, I'm Amy Golding, Director of Psychology for the Workplace Mental Health Institute. 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