 Great. Okay, well, we're ready to go on to the next talk, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you Peter McWilliam. Now, Peter is a member of the Clover Historical Society, the Craig and Historical Society and the Irish Geological Research Society. He's going to say a few words about his own background in his talk, so I won't spoil the surprise for you. But Peter is going to talk to us about triangulated segments, and this is a really exciting topic in genetic genealogy, because it has the potential to bring us back much further in time than we would possibly imagine. And Peter himself has done this particular study on what uses a combination of records from clones and American family records on the other side of the pond. So here to talk to us about a tale of triangulated segments, please give a warm welcome to Peter McWilliam. Okay, Morris, can you hear me at the back? And thanks very much for the invitation, Morris, and thank you all for attending. I just want to emphasize this is very much a collaborative project with Jeff, and when I'm talking about early records, I'm talking about the 1800 to 1830 period. Now, this is my main collaborator, Jeff Blakely, who's an archaeologist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. And he's about my age, so you can see that he's moved into the supervisory classes. The backdrop here is obviously not Madison, in fact, it's Israel. And for the last number of years, he's been engaged in a summer dig in Israel. So on his way either there or back, he drops into either London or Ireland. So we've had a number of opportunities to discuss genealogy. Now, Jeff's one line of Jeff's ancestors migrated from Clonus in 1849. And Jeff and another American collaborator, Norm Prince, have tracked a chain migration from Clonus to Mercer County, Illinois in the mid-19th century, think sort of 1835 to 1875. And comprising something in the order of 50 families, including a branch of my family that I wasn't aware of. Myself, I was a professional geneticist. I escaped into genealogy a number of years ago, but unfortunately the onset of DNA testing has sort of dragged me back in. And if Morris isn't listening, I have a small confession that my main interest is really in local history and in early records around 1800 and before, and what DNA testing can add to those records and genealogy. I grew up in Monaghan, and I live in Dublin. My ancestry back to 1800 and for many lines, back as far as 1700 and before, is South Ulster. So if you think Banbridge, Neury, South Armagh, Interrond, Ungannon, Oknokloy, Fintana, and then Monaghan town and of course Clonus. And over half of my second-grade grandparents are Presbyterian, but you can see that I'll talk later about a couple of landed gentry lines that I have. Now because of this sort of Presbyterian background, I've always been interested in this 18th century Ulster-Scott's migration, particularly sparked by the fact that the fourth great-grandfather was a ship's captain from Neury. And he was involved in the migrant trade from Neury to Philadelphia and New York in the period 1760 to 1775. And this is a picture of Carlingford Lock with the Neury ship canal in the background and Warren Point where migrants embarked. And because my ancestry is all in South Ulster, I was slightly surprised, I shouldn't have been, but I was slightly surprised with my first family tree test when I realized how many American cousins I have. Now I have a lot in the 19th century, but there are a significant number who are tracking into southern US, which presumably must be part of this 18th century Ulster-Scott's migration. Just a little housekeeping. This talk is based in part on a paper that Jeff and I wrote for the Irish genealogist, which is the journal of the Irish Genealogical Research Society. Now this is a family-based study with some advantages and some limitations. Now earlier today we heard a super talk by Mark McDowell on local history. But there are other local DNA projects, including as Cahill, Michael Gunn, who's going to be talking tomorrow, has set up the Famanah Monaghan Plurida project on family tree, and Sean Core has the Ross Le project with about 10 participants. So it's going to be interesting to see how these different approaches are, what information we get from these different approaches. Now I just want to distinguish between close and distant cousins. Now it's a slightly arbitrary distinction, but if I look in my sort of ancestry test, for example, and I first and second and sometimes even third cousins, it's often possible to estimate the relationship directly from the shared DNA, because we share a lot of DNA with those. And of course in this period we've got really good online Irish records. And the situation when we get into the 1818-30 period is trickier. We share a lot less DNA with fourth and more distant cousins. The spread is correspondingly greater, so we really can't estimate the relationship directly from the amount of shared DNA. And there are a number of techniques to get around that. And today I'm going to talk about triangulation to address some genealogical puzzles. The records that I'm going to talk about until now, I'm going to be, it's Protestant families. I'm going to talk about the church found records are good with some 18th century coverage Presbyterians. We have some brick walls before 1820. So we have to use alternative records. And today I'm going to talk about land records, think tie the plot books, estate records, records in the registry of deeds. Now if you think what we get out of the church record, we get connections, spousal pairs, parents, children. What we're hoping is that we can use DNA to link land records. I mean, these are going to be lists of names by townland. Can we link those? And of course, there are a whole ream of other alternative records, both in Clonus and any other parish you care to mention, but I'm going to just use land records as an example here. Okay, just a little more detail on the Clonus records. We have baptism and marriages back to 1793 and then a combined register with vestry minutes and a scattering of baptismal records back to the 1780s. Now one point I want to make about these is that these records through familysearch.org have been online for a very long time. So they've been available for everyone. So if I go into my ancestry tree and just go search Born Clonus, I'm going to pull up a whole pile of people. I have access to a number of other family trees, so I can really build a database of people who are claiming Clonus ancestry. Now I'm not saying any individual one will have any genealogical significance, but it certainly has a really it's a really good database. I've mentioned the Stonebridge Presbyterian Church in Clonus, the marriage records start, marriage baptism both start in 1820. Now the estate that I'm going to talk about is the Barrett Leonard estate, which has a, oops, wrong one, which has a whole series of rent flows, in fact all the way back to 1633. And because work, oh yeah, I have also, I and others have abstracted something in the order of 300 deeds from the general Clonus area, and those can all be accessed at the registry of deeds indexing project. Now because we're kind of interested in having records as widely available as possible, Norm Prince has transcribed the Church of Ireland baptisms and marriages, and they can be found at the Irish genealogical project archive, obviously for free. I have a lot of the Barrett Leonard estate records have been published in the Clahar record, but probably the most detailed one is the 1746-71, and I have uploaded that to my own family website, this link. I've also put up some records for a smaller estate in the region, the Foster estate. Okay, just to look a little closer of what we might expect to get in the estate records, and this is a sort of an extract from a much larger table I created, and I have here a series of, that's a subset of, largely of rural townlands, and the number of lease holders, oops, the number of lease holders in 1791, 1817, and then followed the tie of the plot of books, and what we can see is that the number of leases in this period is pretty much identical between 1817 and the tie of the plot of books, but there's a really sharp fall-off between 1791 by 1791, and then back as we go back further, and what seems to have happened is that sometime around after 1800, the linen industry in the parish was really booming, and as the head leases fell due, the landlord opted to lease directly to the occupiers, so what you're getting here is all of the leases. Here, you're only getting the head tenants, and you can see just from the numbers I've got here of entries for the registry of deeds, these are largely going to cover head tenants, and in fact of the 300 odd deeds I've looked at, only a handful will mention occupiers by name, and just one further point that I apologize, tie the plot of books also only record lease holders so that cutters and laborers without leases will not be present in those records. Okay, if we get on to the parish and the families, Clonus is quite a large parish, 250 townlands, I like the relief because you can see that all the townlands are defined by drumlands. The parish is half in County Monaghan and half in Formana, and this is the county line. The main church of Ireland is in the diamond in Clonus, but sometime early in the 19th century there were two chapters of these, one in Ahadrim Sea, one not shown here in Clough near Roslay. So if you're looking at the records later on, you're going to be described as the town division, the western division, the eastern division. Stonebridge Presbyterian Church is here, and the Barrett Leonard State has a lot of townlands around Clonus, but it stretches out all the way to this little pink dot, which is Smithborough. Okay, moving on to the families, and I'm talking about Eccles, Blakely, and my grandmother's family, the Henrys. The first mention of the Eccles family is Gilbert Eccles, who appears in census of 1659 as the titulado of the Manor of Shannock, and this is Shannock, and the state is in this region here. In 1671 he purchased the Manor of Fintana in County Tyrone, and that became the main family seat. His grandson used the Manor of Shannock to provide portions for his younger children. Now the estate actually remained in the family until it was sold through the Lamb Commission in 1907. The Lamb Commission deeds are in prony and they're an absolute treasure trove of wills and deeds and so on. Now what is of interest to us is one of Daniel's younger children, a daughter Isabella, who married the Reverend Francis Lucas in 1650s, who was a curator in the parish, a member of the Lucas family of Castle Shea near Malmohan, and they lived in the townland of Clonking. In 1667 the Barrett Leonard State Archive records a lease of Matthew Blakely, the townland of what was then Clonkirk Hill, now Clonkirk, and for the next 100 years he and his descendants occupied either Clonkirk or the neighbouring townland of Leggin Kelly. Now by 1800 there seemed to have been two Blakely families in the parish, one Presbyterian, one Church of Ireland, and I honestly don't know whether they were related. So the Presbyterian family were occupying townlands in this region, the Church of Ireland one occupying townlands in this region, and Geoffrey is descended from this group. Finally, around 1800 there were a lot of Henrys in the parish, almost all of them Presbyterian, well I presume they came in sometime after 1703, but the first reference I have to them is in a marriage settlement of 1783, and I'll talk about them in the last portion of the talk. Okay, just to summarise that we have the Reverend Francis Lucas and marrying Isabella Eccles, both born in the 1720s, and they're my fifth great-grandparents, and we have Matthew Blakely and his wife Alice Lucas, who both died in the 1840s and they were Geoff's second great-grandparents. And in 1849 their children, including Geoff's great-grandfather Edward, emigrated with Alice's sister Isabella, her husband Johnson Lipton, and daughter Alice, and they went from through Liverpool to New Orleans up to Mississippi to Mercer County, Illinois, where they appear in the 1850 census. And the question we're asking is what, if any, is the relationship between this Alice Lucas and this Lucas family? And the DNA tests that we have in the project, I paid for tests for some close relatives, so I have four who are matching both the Eccles-Lucas and the Henry Lines. The Eccles-Lucas have much deeper genealogy, so I was able to identify eight individuals to take tests from this line, and then only four are restricted for third cousins for these Henrys. So we only have four of those. Geoff has identified eight people to take tests, descendants of either his second great-grandmother Alice or her sister Isabella. And in addition, I mean, just to emphasize this is an ongoing project. Additionally, more distant Blakely is identified by rebuilding trees from family search and ancestry. On a continuing basis, some of these have also contributed DNA. And in fact, I talk about those in the paper I mentioned earlier. Okay, why do we think there's a relationship between Francis Isabella Lucas and Alice? And if we look at the children of Francis and Isabella, and this is from a will in the Land Commission papers, we have a list of the names of their children. And we have a list of the names of the children of Matthew and Alice from the Clonus Baptismum registers. And we can see that all of the names here, all of them, are represented here. So at the very least, this is a claim of relationship, whether it's legitimate or illegitimate, we don't know. But Jeff, on his first visit to Clonus in 1973, looked at the Clonus Baptismum registers, and he identified Alice, Alicia, illegitimate daughter of Charles Lucas, the town land of Cromahee. Now that's a town land in the Shannock estate. And presumption is that Charles Lucas here is the youngest son of Francis Isabella. So you just assume that was his ancestor. And until a few years ago, on another visit to Cromahee, where he came across the will of Charles Robert Lucas, who died in 1845. And this is, in fact, what sparked his contact with me. And the major, Charles Robert married late in life in 1811. He had no children. Major beneficiary in his will was Thomas, son of his brother, Frank. And then at the end of the will, there are these four requests to Fanny Clarkson, Mary Ann West, Alice Gordon, and Charles Lucas, who went to America. So we revisit the Clonus Baptismum registers and we identify Mary Ann, Alicia, and Charlotte, and we can presume these, all of these three are children, illegitimate children of Charles Lucas and Mary Maguire. So Jeff, Jeff did a lot of the legwork in the genealogy searching, identified direct descendants of Mary Ann West and Alice Gordon. Both took DNA tests, both downloaded to GEDMATCH, and we then compared their DNA tests to all of the others in our database. And we come up with this, and this is my first sort of example of triangulation. So I want to go through it just in a little bit of detail. We have a descendant of Francis Anne Lucas, matching a descendant of Alice Gordon and chromosome 15 in a particular location. She also matches the descendant of Mary Ann West in the same place. Now just remember we have 23 pairs of chromosomes, one paternal, one maternal. So if we just think of the first two lines, it's conceivable that this is on say the paternal chromosome and this is on the maternal chromosome. We need to show that these two actually indeed match each other to compete the triangulation, which is the case. This proves that these three have a common ancestor, who is it? And as it happens, I'm the descendant of Francis Anne Lucas. The descendant of Alice Gordon has significant Ulster ancestry, including some ancestry in our MA, which I also have. So it is conceivable that as well as this hypothetical Francis Lucas Isabella Eccles match, we could have a match somewhere in the distant past in our MA ancestry. However, the descendant of Mary Ann West only has one Irish ancestral line. The overwhelming bulk of her ancestry is in fact Scandinavian. So it seems safe to conclude that the common ancestors are in fact Isabella and Frank, which leaves the question if Alice Lucas, wife of Matthew Blakeman, is not the daughter of Charles Robert Lucas? Who is she? Is she a member of this family at all? So we did, as part of our sort of search of all of our database, we identified a further triangulated match, this time between a descendant of Isabella Lucas, a descendant of Alice Lucas, and a different descendant of Francis Anne Lucas. And we have a triangulated match just as a technical load. This descendant of Alice Lucas is actually not on jet match, so we have to look at the tests of the other two on their respective family tree tests to confirm the triangulation. And they must have a common ancestral couple, which is likely Francis Lucas and Isabella Eccles. So can we fit Isabella and Alice into what we know about Lucas family tree? And sometime around 18, before 1835, my second great aunt Anna Maria Dixon constructed a family pedigree. Now she was minor beneficiary in the will of Charles Robert Lucas, she was born in 1813. So she would have known the living members of this group. So it seems reasonably reliable source. She identified three children of Isabella and Frank, who themselves had children. These two here are well known within the family, we know their genealogy is really well, some of them have in fact contributed DNA to the project. We know rather less about Frank, who died married with two married daughters and one son. Some married in 1835, and Jeff and I were able to track his descendants, but unfortunately they seem to have died out in the 1950s, which is unfortunate because DNA from them would have been really nice. But the question is, could they have been Isabella Lucas, Lipton or Alice Lucas Blakely? And it is consistent with the evidence, that's really all we can say, by its very nature DNA is never going to give us a conclusive answer. All we can say is that we can, we'll just sit on the result we're waiting, will more documentation come in, will more matches come in, which might further support or refute the contention. But we are never going to get an absolute answer with DNA. It's just one additional piece of proof that we can add. Okay, so that was Church of Ireland in the parish. I want to switch now to the Henry family and Presbyterians influence. I just put up a photograph of the meeting house and I couldn't resist the stone bridge over the river Thin, and just to note the river Thin going along here. And in this area here, it actually separates out the parishes of Clonus and Kilitha. Now the main record that we have for this used here is an 1835 census of the stone bridge Presbyterian Church generated by the minister of the Reverend William White. And he details 180 families by town land giving parents and children. And the numbers here are the numbers in each town land. So you've got two in the town land of Drumgillie. You've got two in the town land of Anna McKith, who happen both to be Henrys. The major concentration is here in the town land of Grungeham or the town land of the meeting house, where we have 13 families and 14 in nearby Creevley. And then they spread out into the Formana portion. Note that there are real, the major urban center is Clonus and there are very few Presbyterian families here. So we're referring to these are farming families and there are also very few in sort of the Shannock estate here. What we're seeing is the clustering of these. The estates I mentioned in Brown, the Barrett Leonard estate with tire lines around Clonus and out towards Smithboro. The Foster estate has tire lines in Parish of Pilevan and one in Clonus. And it has a rent roll that actually are a rent book from 1803 to 1820, which is really nice. And you can see that both of these estates are really useful for Presbyterian genealogy and records. Okay, now in 1819 the Synod of Ulsters sent out a directive to ministers suggesting they keep marriage baptism records. And so a lot of the Presbyterian records actually start just exactly in this period, which is a problem for me because I have sort of six, eight second grade grandparents who were born in the decade and a half before that. So I have a string of Presbyterian brick walls. I'm going to use one of these as an example here today. Dr. Richard Henry died in Clonus in 1898, aged 80. Was he born in Clonus? Now, if we think about Richard Henry's parents, we've got a Henry father and then a mother of unknown maiden name. We've got a grandfather with three unknown maiden names, great grandfather, seven unknown names. Add in sisters who will marry out and as a consequence what we're looking for are fourth, fifth, sixth cousins who appear in the records post 1820 and many majority will have unknown names. How do we go about tracking that? How do we identify these cousins? But we can triangulate with known third cousins and I have a number of Henry second and third cousins and look for those who have Clonus ancestry. We can try and triangulate directly to place common segments of people who have Clonus ancestry. Now inevitably in this we're going to have to try and build match trees, identify matches, build them back and see can we get them into Clonus. Obviously segment triangulation is the gold standard but that's not always possible so sometimes we're going to have to combine segment triangulation with pedigree triangulation for ancestry matches and what we're trying to do is create a database of names and we're looking for recurring names and places. Essentially this is what I think genealogists do in adoption studies. I'm just trying to do it quite a lot earlier with rather less by way of records. Okay just using the sort of the criteria I mentioned I put a whole series anything that looked as though it could be connected to the Henry family onto Johnny Pearl's DNA painter site and I've just extracted sort of a subset of examples here and this is a group based on descendants of Richard Henry and Anne Jane Donaldson. I just want to point out that I've taken this match from Family Tree, this match from 23andMe. This group is not a triangulated group. There are triangulations within it. For example RM is also a Henry 3rd cousin triangulating with SW and first SW and RE of Columbus Ancestry and when I say involving townlands in the Barrett Leonard estate they also appear in the church records and the Tithe Plotman books, references in the registry of deeds. There's a whole series of useful records with respect to them. BG is Canadian and I was able to pull her ancestry back into a marriage in 1836 in the Stonebridge Presbyterian Church. A baptism of Catherine Andrews I think in 1818 in the Church of Alta, it was the townland of Mahirani. I can find her with her parents in the 1835 Stonebridge census and I can also track them back generation to 1803 in the townland of Mahirani in the Foster estate. Now this recurring names, so I should actually share two fragments with SW and the second one we have William Brown, son of Walter Brown and Jane Martin of Caravitra. This match is a triangulation between AR, SW, AR, her parents are Dawson Delamere and Jane Martin. These two Jane Markins are roughly contemporaries. If we look at the children we can make a direct, we have here some entries from the townland and from the elite in the 1835 Stonebridge census and we can see a direct correspondence analysis of Annalisa, John Henry, well we are interested in Henry's, we have Alice, Alice with Sarah Matilda, we have Matilda, Sarah, Joseph Martin. So we can presume it's likely that Jane fits into this family group. This Jane Martin has a grandson who was Joseph Martin Moorhead I think and it's possible that she fits into this and it's possible that these two, their ancestor could be a common ancestor of SW, AR. In other words we are in a position to create a hypothesis that we can test further. I'm not stating that as a fact it's just something that we can, we can. Now here I have also had a second share of Thrangmur with AR. Here these three are all on ancestry and all share a match. NH and K share a spear on strong marriage in the 1750s. Now if you remember AR, hearth has an ancestor Dawson Dalamere and we can see spear and Dalamere in the townland of Drumgarly in the tithe books. So in principle what we're asking is can we make a connection through DNA to a lit someone in the tithe books? Now this as a standalone has no significance it's just part of looking for more matches, looking for more documentation. It's just a possibility and even more nebulous one in a way. YM in her family tree tracks back to the marriage of a young couple in the 1901 census and I was able to track the wife back through the civil records to this marriage here and Jane Henry of Anna McKiff. So that is in itself an interesting triangulating with J.M. who has no stated Irish ancestor but does have the back in the mid 18th century a Whitaker-Wiggins marriage and those two are pretty common names in Clonus. It's nebulous but the question is can we then pull him back into Clonus and can we add names into a list that might connect up with other names that would appear as more people test and match? It's just we are short of records and we are trying to get the value from every record source that we have. Now I just want to ask just how far back can we triangulate? And this is Greystone behind Second Valley Bay Presbyterian Church the top two names of the Reverend James Morrell who was born near the Mavadi and Leticia Harris of Clonus and in fact her mother was Francesanne Lucas and what I have here is a triangulated match with my first cousin and two fourth cousins who themselves are third type of second cousins triangulated match on chromosome 11 and this is part of a much larger triangulation group. So it's actually a five-way triangulation and the two additional members DA and KB who themselves are fourth cousins have a common ancestor Thomas Miller who was born 1773 in Abbeville South Carolina. Now if we trace genealogy back from him we come to a Margaret pattern and Malata was born in 1655 in the townland Ruski in Dromaco's parish which is near Limavadi. We have deeds that link John Morrell father of the Reverend James Morrell back to Samuel Marie at least quarter of Baliquin townland in Baltea parish in 1700. Now Limavadi is actually in Dromaco's Baltea's parish immediately south of that so we're talking of a few miles. Now we haven't got enough data we're not close to identifying a common ancestor. At best we're triangulating to place but there's a serious sort of caveat here and that is that if we follow Thomas Miller one line we go back to Margaret pattern if we follow him on a different line over two generations we come to an ancestor who was born in Ireland where in Ireland now in the worst-case scenario it's Clonus and the focus of the triangulation goes from Limavadi to Clonus and the tip a rule of thumb I picked up from Jim Bartlett's segmentology blog was that if you're going from a secure triangulation back for each generation you go back you need at least one additional match and what I'm really trying to emphasize is just how difficult it is I mean I think this I'm not sure whether we can resolve this whether we can resolve to place whether we could ever identify common ancestors it's just a numerical look at how difficult it is to get back this far. Okay um some just as in conclusion I mean we are lucky in this project we have landed gentry family with ancestry very good ancestry all the way back to the 1650s the Blakely families are present in land in church records land records they seem to have been head tenants so that gives us in future the possibility of checking just how far back we can push DNA testing with a controlled known answer if you like um again just to reiterate the combination of documentary evidence and triangulation through DNA testing has allowed us to connect up these Blakely and Lucas families triangulation with cousins and with cousins in place identifies cousins behind the Henry brick wall who can be linked to church and land records I'm not sure if I'm ever going to resolve my own Henry problem but in a number of cases that I've sort of talked about the possibility is that we can push other families back into the 18th century we've tracked a 19th century migration in our particular group of farmers across into North America Canada um and it's possible at that level to integrate the records quite well you know add value to genealogies there but of course 18th century migration is still challenging we need a lot more matches as we go further back and by point about triangulation back to 1700 will we ever get enough matches I don't know now I've worked all of my sort of examined all my family trees and so on by I it's tedious so I'm hoping and I haven't really sort of explored that G works is one of a suite programs developed by Rob Worthing for adoption studies I mean he talked in Dublin in October and also I think in 2014 and in essence or it had a simplification if it's extracting data from some say ancestry test matches and trees and creating searchable databases and I'm hoping that might make hip tree searching a little easier and my thanks to everyone who's contributed DNA shared genealogy and so on the project wouldn't have been possible without them and in the process of inevitably I've made a very large number of friends worldwide and of course particularly to Jeff thank you very much for your attention it's a fascinating insight into the difficulty of trying to use DNA to get back into the 1700s where you said you need more matches and I think obviously with this type of analysis the more you can get the more your ability to attempt triangulation yeah where are you getting your matches from are you getting them from all of the DNA testing databases a lot of them are on ancestry and have downloaded to GED match now well inevitably one of the frustrating things is that I've gotten loads of matches to my Henry line on ancestry and I've got loads of people who won't reply to emails I even have people who have taken portions of my family tree further put it onto their own I still won't reply to emails so but no also all sources I mean 23 and me family family tree then come in all shapes and sizes and I mean I think this sort of pedigree triangulation type thing you know where you're trying to do it without genealogy without sorry without segment data I don't I don't know well it would be great if there was a tool developed by some clever person out there that would make people reply to you make them do their family tree you must do an awful lot of tree building yourself um no a bit a bit um do you not find matters who say oh I've got I think I have relatives from clones but I haven't done my family tree you're in Ireland it's clonus we are my grandfather parents so you have to do oh yes yeah yeah there's a lot there's a lot of other other linking linking up of that sort of thing yeah yeah and how many people in the audience have actually got to answer the tree from clones the whole row of them there right okay you have to spot them before they leave I don't think Cal's probably already got them all right so questions for questions for Peter yeah we have a question here from Debbie I'm just wondering if you can use in why Crohn's own DNA testing which is much more effective for reaching back why you can actually get a complete branching process or are there not enough descendants of all those I mean I don't my wife is clonus Jeff tried why and his was one of those that we got nothing with I'm trying but I don't actually have a Henry why so and because we're starting you know with the family and work working out I mean I think Cal with you know his border project I think there are a lot of whys that have people have taken why in that so it's probably going to build but directly at this stage we have I mean we thought about it it hasn't fallen into our hands but we are always looking for that you know for that approach but yes I mean incorporating why of course but it I mean it just seems that you get very individual results with why I mean if we're looking at a few hundred Presbyterian families over the 18th century are we going to get whys for all of them whereas I I mean I would say the autosomal test has connected in you know 30 40 families you know so good word only at 1800 we are picking up a lot of the getting a good representation how do you think your project is going to synergy with what Peter is doing well I think it is tremendous capacity in the future it's a very small project in present and we can do a lot more people testing and joining it I have a number of cases in my old relatives that have done why 37 and the closest batches themselves so that's the challenge we just need more people to test me on any other questions from Peter I mean any questions about the records and illness yeah yeah Michael Peter you mentioned about the heads of the state and changing the who would register on these days due to the business or something I didn't get but you getting out yeah I mean the linen industry was probably booming around around the 1800 period I mean it only started to sort of collapse you know at the end of the Napoleonic wars so it was clear to the landlord that the under tenants were going to be in a position to pay leases and he could get more money by leasing directly to them rather than allowing the head tenant or middleman to take a cut so just referring to the likes of Griffith valuation then he was skipping out the would be some Griffith valuation it would be the actual overlap owner of the biggest state well Griffith valuation only the less sore it's just the immediate less sore so there could well that person could well have been leasing from an over a landlord I mean there's a vertical structure all the way yes so okay no but I mean some of the some of the registered tenants in the Griffiths would be just a couple of acres and yes they're over they'd be renting from somebody maybe with 200 acres so are you saying the person of both those then was directly leasing well I mean well I'm talking 60 years before Griffith valuation so that process would already have happened any other questions for Peter great okay well we'll call it a day there but um thanks once again Peter for giving us a fascinating insight into your project hopefully you'll come back and give us an update at some stage especially if you find something really really interesting so please give your time