 The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 3609 in the name of Ross Greer on industrial relations in the college sector. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I would ask those members who wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons now. I call on Ross Greer to open the debate up to seven minutes, please, Mr Greer. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I thank Labour and Green colleagues who support for this motion secured this evening's debate and the EIS FULA Lectures Union, who collaborated on its drafting. I make no secret the fact that I'm a supporter of EIS FULA. I was a trade unionist before I was elected to this Parliament and I'll still be one long after I leave. I'm aware that college management are not pleased with the tone of this motion and some of the specific points it makes, and those are points that I'll address more in more detail later. To start with, I want to provide some context for my bringing this motion to Parliament. We're now a decade on from the regionalisation of Scotland's colleges. That's not a process that the Greens supported, but we recognise that some good has come from it. This is an appropriate point that I wish to take stock, though, and to acknowledge what hasn't worked. Our colleges have seen industrial action in six of the last eight years. There's an on-going ballot of lecturers at the moment, which may well lead to further strike action. Regardless of the position that you took on any one of those strikes or your views on industrial action as a whole, I think that we can all acknowledge that something is obviously wrong for a sector to have seen such consistent unrest year after year. This is a point where the unions and management agree, albeit that they have an understandable disagreement on how the situation has regularly escalated that far. It's an issue that I don't think has seen nearly enough parliamentary scrutiny, so I'm glad that the Education and Skills Committee has agreed to my request that will hold an inquiry. I hope that this debate will be an opportunity to air some of the issues, which can then be explored in more detail through that process. National collective bargaining in the sector has certainly been a positive development. The power imbalance in industrial relations is by default one in favour of the employer. It's only through collective organising that workers can even that out. Too many sectors of our economy no longer have or never had effective collective bargaining arrangements in place, and I'm glad that the Scottish Government's national strategy for economic transformation reflects the Greens' manifesto proposals to expand collective bargaining into more industries. College management is absolutely right to point out that Scotland's lecturers have the best pay and conditions anywhere in the UK. That's something that we should all be proud of. It's a striking example of what a well-organised workforce can achieve. It's certainly very hard to imagine that this would have been the case without militant trade unionism. That's not something that EIS feel should be made to feel embarrassed about. They should be congratulated for consistently delivering on behalf of their members. I don't intend for this debate to be a deep dive into the rights and wrongs of each individual dispute across the last decade, but it's worth pointing out that the first pay agreement reached by the National Joint Negotiations Committee was subject to an employment tribunal when management refused to pay it in full. The tribunal upheld the union's position. Subsequent disputes were the result again of a failure to honour the deals reached at the NJNC. I've played my role in this near yearly routine meeting with both the union and with management. The meetings that I've had with colleges Scotland have always been completely candid and useful, but one consistent theme has emerged, a dispute over what the agreed deals have meant in practice. Management's position has generally been that they've honoured the deal insofar as they understood it and the union's understanding was incorrect. I've clearly and firmly supported the union's position over the years, but this dispute over what was agreed has led me to make a proposal that I know neither college management nor my friends in EIS are enthusiastic about. The NJNC is a bilateral negotiations body. I'd like to see serious consideration given to the presence of a Scottish Government or other independent observer in future sessions. I recognise that this is a proposal with drawbacks of its own, but we need to do something to break out of this cycle. The presence of fire and rehire practices in the sector must also be stamped out. The 18-month dispute at Forth Valley College was caused by an attempt to replace lecturer posts with those of course instructors. Referring back to the point fairly made by colleges Scotland on a regular basis, our lecturers are on comparatively high paying conditions, so replacing those posts with course instructors on poorer paying conditions whilst offering staff the choice between such a downgrade and redundancy is absolutely the definition of fire and rehire. That is not to cast aspersions as to the ability of course instructors to do an excellent job in colleges across the country, but any profession being undermined in this way would be absolutely justified in resisting such a move. When fire and rehire disputes resulted in referral to the NJNC, agreement was reached that those posts were indeed lecturers, not course instructors, and the decision was reversed. That is a trade union doing exactly what it is for, protecting its member's interests. Colleges Scotland contend that there is no national practice of fire and rehire in the sector, and I do not claim that there is a systematic plan in place, but that was not an isolated incident. There are live disputes at West Lodian and Fife colleges on exactly this issue right now. One really useful outcome of that dispute was clear agreement on a dispute resolution mechanism in future. Every college should have a locally agreed dispute resolution process with its EIS branch, with issues not resolved at that level referred up to the NJNC, but a number of colleges still do not have a local process in place. I know the reasons for that are complex. Unison, the largest union representing course instructors, are keen to have a role in processes that involve that role. As far as I understand it, each union and management have distinct positions that have not yet been reconciled. That is one area in which I hope that the Scottish Government could encourage renewed effort, given the frequency of industrial action in the sector, ensuring that every college has a clear resolution process in place would seem like an essential step. It would be remiss of me to bring up fire and rehire practices without offering the Scottish Green Party's solidarity to RMT and Nautos international members fighting for their jobs at PNO. The college sector might have its problems, but for a company to employ thugs armed with handcuffs to force its own staff off its ships after sacking them on moments' notice is utterly shameful. I am glad that the Scottish Government is reviewing its contracts with PNO. It is quite clear that a company is willing to do that to its own workers and to replace them with workers on a pitiful £1.80 an hour is utterly unfit to run essential services, never remain compatible with the Scottish Government's fair work practices, and on that point I would refer members to my register of interest in relation to the RMT. I am conscious of the time and there are a number of other issues that I have not touched on. I certainly do not have time to do justice to the on-going pay dispute, but I will highlight that management has not yet offered DIS a new date for further negotiations. They may be waiting for the result of the ballot, but I would urge them not to. No one wants to see industrial action, and a new date should be set as soon as possible in negotiations resumed. My motion and speech have focused largely on the issues that are facing lecturers, but I know that support staff face a range of challenges of their own, some of which I hope other members will touch on. One brief point that I would make here is to ask the minister if the Scottish Government could explore whether further fair work conditions could be attached to SFC funding packages for colleges, with the intention of benefiting the lowest paid staff in particular. The situation at SRUC is another that should be revisited. A paying grading review there was agreed a long time ago and is now long overdue. SRUC lecturers are on markedly worse paying conditions than their colleagues in either the FE or HE sectors, and yet again the situation has dragged on for so long without a resolution that further industrial action is a distinct possibility. Before closing, I would also like to extend the green support to UCU members in the university sector who are once again out on strike in response to the shocking attack on their pensions on top of sustained erosion of their paying conditions. A typical USS pension fund member now faces a 35 per cent cut to their pension, and in many ways employment practices in the university sector are far worse than in colleges. Zero hours contracts and low wages are certainly more prevalent. Scotland's colleges have so much to offer. They are a driving force of our economy, they are essential to our climate ambitions, training the joiners, the electricians, the heating engineers, the forestry workers, the mechanics and so many others who will deliver the transition away from a fossil fuel-based economy. Their key to our shared mission of eradicating child poverty, often being the place where the most marginalised people can access life-changing education. They have played an incredible and often underappreciated role in allowing many young Scots to see beyond the UK's border through the Erasmus plus scheme before that was cruelly taken away by Brexit. My purpose in bringing this debate was not to paint an entirely negative picture of our colleges. There is so much to be proud of and so much which can still be achieved, but all of it is dependent on college staff, and there are clear deep-rooted problems in the relationship between staff and management across the sector. Problems that I believe that Parliament and Government have a role in resolving. I am grateful to colleges Scotland for their input to EIS. Fulha is always for their collaboration to all members contributing this evening and to the Minister for Responding on behalf of the Government. This is an area where I believe broad consensus can be found. We just need to be brave enough to take the difficult steps towards it. I would like to thank Ross Greer for bringing that motion to the chamber this evening. I also pay tribute, if I may put it on the persona of the convener of the Education, Children and Young People's Committee, to thank Ross Greer for his many insightful contributions to the work of that committee. He is appreciated by all of us who serve there. I would also like to comment on the principle of Forth Valley College. Forth Valley College was mentioned in passing. I would like to say that, in relation to my dealings with Professor Ken Thompson, I have rarely met a more inspirational educationalist than Ken Thompson. He is an innovator, he brings great energy and a great vision to everything that he does, and we are the beneficiaries of the service that he gives. That is the principle of Forth Valley College. However, to make no mistake, this is a difficult time to be a young person in Scotland. Having spent the last two years of their education pretty much in limbo, young people across the country are uncertain about what will happen on a day-to-day basis, never mind month-to-month or even year-to-year. The problems that we face in higher education in Scotland were here long before the Covid-19 pandemic, but the pandemic has served to magnify and highlight those issues that we face. It is also right to point out that the restrictions imposed in response to the pandemic also have created further issues, and it is in this context that we must view the present industrial discontent both in colleges and in the universities. It is not in my opinion for government to dictate to unions or management what should happen. What we should do today in this chamber is remind the lecturers and the principals what effect they are having on our young people. I was told by one of my constituents at a further education college that he had to wait an entire month for results and feedback on a critical assessment that determined his grade. He could not plan for imminent exams, he could not get a sense of where he was, and he could not plan ahead. That left him feeling isolated alone and fearful for his future, all of that because of the industrial action. Another of my constituents who had no knowledge of whether she would be sitting in exams until a week and a half before she was due to sit them, she felt that she had been left hanging, ignored, and she felt stressed out, and all of that goes on account of industrial action as well. Students are left not knowing whether they will get into university, not knowing whether they can get the job they want, and that needs to end. Frankly, the rights and wrongs of the industrial action are secondary to the need that we should put on serving our young people first. I do not doubt the intentions of the lecturers or, indeed, the principals, that they have a sincere desire to serve the best interests of their students, but they must redouble their efforts to reach agreement. We must put that behind us. Every principal and every striking lecturer must be able to look themselves in the mirror and say that they have done all they can to reach an agreement. I say to them today, and I hope that we can all agree, that we want to see our students educated and treated with the respect that they deserve. It is their future that is at stake. Someone must speak up for them in this debate, and they should be more prominent in this debate than they have been, in my opinion, up until now. We owe it to them after what we have put them through over the last two years. It is a pleasure to congratulate Ross Greer on securing this debate today, and for the member's motion at which he put down which highlights the record of industrial relations in the college sector over the last decade, and in particular highlights the fact that there have been six years out of the last eight years where there has been strike action. Most of us will be aware of specific disputes in colleges in the areas that we represent. Even over the past few days, I have been consulted by staff in Ayrshire College who are concerned about the draft budget, which has a £51.9 million cut and, obviously, it is going to have massive consequences in terms of the workforce there. I think that Stephen Kerr is absolutely correct to put on record the pressure that students have been under during Covid, and, of course, they will be affected by industrial action also. Many of those who work in the college sector are very aware of that, so it is a very difficult decision for those who work in the sector to decide to take this kind of action. I think that it shows that industrial relations have deteriorated in the sector and that the Scottish Government needs to intervene to repair relationships between colleges, between College Scotland and trade unionists. Those issues have to be viewed in the wider context. There can be absolutely no doubt that the level of cuts that colleges are facing has been a factor. If we look at the treatment of colleges and college students in relation to other parts of the education sector, it is a very dramatic contrast. We see over £8,000 spent each year for secondary school students, over £7,000 for preschool, and £6,000 for primary school students, just under £6,000 for university students, and just over £4,000 for colleges. Of course, we know the class nature of college students, and we know that, historically, it both has been a sector that working class communities have looked to, but also some of the trades and the sectors that we need on to survive in terms of our society and economy, whether that is building trades, beauty or hairdressing, and many of the service industries that many working class people look to. Since 2014, the sector has been subjected to numerous industrial disputes. Those grievances have included equal pay, common conditions of service, transfer to permanent status for staff on insecure contracts, annual pay agreements, fire and rehire, which has already been referred to, disciplinary grievance procedures and policies. It is clear that there are significant cultural issues in the sector when industrial relations are in such a dire condition. I was first elected representative in 2005, and I recall at that time being approached about issues at what is now Ayrshire College at Cawinning. Although the issues were different, I think that the recurring theme is that the whole sector has been subjected to this poor industrial relations backdrop. We know that EIS, Further Education and Lectures Association, are in dispute. We also know that unison has now lodged a formal dispute with college and that 92 per cent of college workers rejected the pay offer. As Ross Greer said, we also know that UCU members are in dispute as a result of a 35 per cent cut in pensions. There are a 25.5 per cent real terms cut in their pay since 2009. I thank him for raising those issues, and I hope that the Scottish Government will actively engage with the issue. I thank Ross Greer for bringing the debate to Parliament. Colleges are central to promoting the skills and social mobility across our communities that are needed for Scotland to thrive into the future, not least as we come out of a global pandemic. They are essential to the partnerships that schools have with the wider community, as well as providers of courses that fit directly into apprenticeships and careers. Neither this Parliament nor the Scottish Government are the employers here, and they are not parties in the dispute that is currently under way. It is therefore up to the colleges as employers and the unions representing their workforces to reach a settlement on that, and it is for them to do so voluntarily and collaboratively. I hope that we can, however, agree that both sides now need to employ all the efforts to that end in the interests of students, staff and colleges alike. The Scottish Government is clear that both support staff and lecturing staff, for instance, are equally valuable in our colleges. Again, I hope that that fact is recognised across this chamber, too. On a specific issue, I hope that we can also all be clear as a Parliament that the practice of fire and rehire is an appalling one. No college should be using it or attempting to justify it. Both employment and trade union law remain reserved to the UK Government, and, of course, some parties here argued for that to remain the case in the course of the Smith commission, but that does not stop this Parliament working with unions to highlight that fire and rehire is a practice that cannot be allowed to continue. Scottish Government is making its view on that clear, I believe, but it is now time for the UK Government, where the legislative powers lie, to ban the practice entirely. Just as I should learn from the experience of the pandemic and all its economic consequences by legislating to protect workers' rights more broadly. I fully concur with the points that he is making on what the UK Government should do, but does he not accept in the college sector that this is a matter of policy from the Scottish Government? As I said, the colleges are the employer, but the point that I was making about fire and rehire is that it is an example in many ways of the UK's current employment law's weakness. I think that it was a point that other members have made in many respects. Incidentally, I also hope that employment law will not be found to be similarly weak if I can go off on a relevant tangent here when the workforce of P and O come to challenge their atrocious mistreatment in recent days, a point that others have made. However, this Parliament has a role in pressing the UK to legislate to fix the kinds of gaps that do exist in the UK's employment law, gaps that seemingly allow a college to fire and rehire people. We should keep making that point until either we have action on that front from the UK or until the relevant powers to address the matter come to this Parliament. In conclusion, everyone, I hope, recognises that any settlement has to be one that is affordable to the Scottish Government, but I do believe that the ball is now firmly in the college's co-op. I urge the employers to return to the negotiating table as a matter of urgency. I also hope that they will do that in order to resolve a dispute that is in nobody's interest, at least of all that of students. Their experience of learning and wider student life has already been affected by the consequences of a global pandemic. One way, I believe, of employers showing good faith in those negotiations would be for colleges to take an unequivocal stance now against fire and rehire as a working practice. I now call Martin Whitfield, who will be the last speaker in the open debate. Up to four minutes, please, Mr Whitfield. I am very grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer. It is a pleasure to take part in this member's debate. Can I extend my congratulations to Ross Greer for bringing it in the cross-party support that has made it possible? Our college sector is very important, and I think I would like to begin by extending my thanks to the college lecturers and to the college management, but most of all to the students who, over the past two years, have put up with a huge amount in the Covid pandemic. But also to look at our colleges before the Covid pandemic, the place that managed to shelter children who found school too difficult, too horrible or not to their liking, college lecturers who stepped out of their way to make these people welcome into their early adult life and say that education is possible for them, perhaps not the way they'd experienced it at school, but here's a different way. I think of the college lecturers who went above and beyond that, forming courses almost specifically designed for individuals who came before them, who were challenged with the sort of learning that schools seem to put out. I think this flexibility, this imagination and above all this care that the college lecturers showed their young people and indeed the support staff around them shows much to their merit. And then to go into Covid, to go into the challenges of lockdown, to go into the challenges of reaching out to young people who often were unable to join using IT or other technology, may be only limited to a phone call, may be only limited actually to sometimes even just letters. But to keep those young people interested in their young people's futures, I think speaks highly of a well-motivated, highly experienced and incredibly valuable group of professionals. And if we look at this motion it talks about the industrial relations and the challenges that have existed in that and that too predates Covid. And I think that for this debate tonight we should look to the heart of that, to try and end the appalling industrial relations that are existing between the trade unions and the colleges. And it is not something that an individual chooses likely to do, to vote, to take industrial action, to move that industrial action to the point of strike. No worker does that with any enthusiasm whatsoever. But to look at this sector and to look at the emotional stress that these college lecturers and workers have been put under, where they've had to reach that stage in different geographical areas over different employment disputes, I think speaks volumes for an attitudinal difference and problem between the colleges and their staff. And I do think it is for the Scottish Government to step in and to help and to facilitate a rebuilding of that industrial relations. And let me give one simple example that I think would help. Why can there not be proper facility time for full-time trade unionists and trade unions representatives so that they are paid to deal with their trade union points of order so that we can perhaps avoid industrial dispute by a simple discussion going on at college level about areas. It exists in so many areas of our economy and yet does not appear here. There is a simple step. Yes, it will cost money, but what it will save may well be an individual child giving up on their further education. And I have, in the very short time that I have left, wished to discuss the question of the budget because it has been flat cash position this year. And one of the things that I think we've talked about across this chamber tonight is the importance of this area. There are young people who are going into schools that have been rebuilt. There are people who go to university to some of the finest architectural establishments across the whole of Scotland. Look at our college estate. It has been abandoned and left behind and the young people who go to that reflect on the value of themselves when they see that's how society wants them to be educated. I think we are at the crossroads of an opportunity where we can see a glorious future for our college sector because it is important. It is important to the lecturers, it is important to the colleges but most of all it's important to the young people of Scotland. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you and I now call on Minister Jamie Hepburn to respond to the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. Up to seven minutes please Minister. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Can I begin in joining with others in thanking Ross Greer for bringing forward tonight's debate and those members that have contributed. The issues that have been raised are important ones and I believe that we should as apparently prepared to debate those issues. First and foremost though I want to echo the comments that Martin Whitfield made. I've made these comments before but I'll take the opportunity to do so again because I don't think that we can emphasise enough the gratitude that we should all have for the contribution that our college teaching and support staff have made to the sector throughout the pandemic. It has been an extraordinarily difficult period of time for our institutions and they have managed to continue delivering in difficult circumstances for students the length of the breadth of the country by pivoting the way in which they deliver. I know that we are all grateful for their efforts. As we look forward, as we emerge from the pandemic, we know that our tertiary education institutions are going to have a critical role in rebuilding our economy and our society. We are instrumental in any economic recovery strategy, working with our business base, working with the local communities, working with local people and fulfilling their civic roles as local anchor institutions. The budget segment has been mentioned by Katie Clark and Martin Whitfield and I want to briefly reflect on where we are. I understand that the circumstances in which we found ourselves are challenging for colleges but we have to recognise that the budget that we have provided comes against the backdrop of a Scottish Government budget, which the Scottish Fiscal Commission, independently of government, has said to the Finance Committee of this Parliament is a 5.2 per cent cut in real terms in Scottish Government budgetary leeway. We should be clear that the settlement for the tertiary education sector does not follow that trajectory, but that is the challenging circumstances that we are in and we should pretend that we are in anything other than those difficult circumstances. I will give way briefly, yes. I think to put into the official record that what the minister is saying is in relation to the Covid recovery monies that were given to the Scottish Government. In fact, this is the largest bloc grant and the largest increase in the bloc grant that the Scottish Government has had in the devolution era, so I think that it is important to get the facts of the matter straight on this. I am referring to the facts of the matter. The Scottish Fiscal Commission has said that this coming financial year, by comparison to the one that is just ending, we have in real terms 5.2 per cent less to expend. However, I do not want to get caught up in that too much because that is not the fundamental purpose of this evening's debate. I just mentioned it by way of context because the budget had been mentioned, but the challenge for us now is how do we work collectively to ensure that colleges are well placed to respond to the circumstances that we are in? That is my commitment. I have been meeting with the Scottish Funding Council, with Colleges Scotland and the individual principles of our colleges. Of course, our trade unions and in recognition of the point that Dr Allan made, I should say that I recognise the equal importance of the support staff and lecturers, so I am not just meeting EIS fuel on these matters, I mean Unison, Unite and GMB as well, and we are having the discussion about how we make sure that colleges are well placed to respond to the challenges and indeed the opportunities that we have ahead of us. In relation to the understandable and right concerns that have been raised about the frequency of industrial action, I share those concerns that are undeniable. That has been the experience over the last two years. Dr Allan was correct in saying that fundamentally this is for the college management and for the unions collectively to resolve, but I do not shirk the role that the Scottish Government has in these matters either. Katie Clark hopes that we will be actively involved. I hope that I have already demonstrated to the extent to which we are in dialogue with the sector. We take that seriously, and indeed we have already, following previous industrial action, committed to undertaking a lessons learned exercise. My predecessor, Richard Lochhead, committed to that work. Of course, there is many things being disrupted to the degree by Covid-19, but there has been discussions with employers, trade unions and Scottish Government officials and a final summary report will come forward in terms of lessons learned and advice provided to ministers in due course. I am very grateful to the intervention. Can the minister comment on Raskria's proposal of the Scottish Government taking a seat at the negotiating table? That would fundamentally alter the nature of the process right now. It would be the ordinary position that the Scottish Government would seek to become involved in every single set of negotiations and processes across the full range of the labour market. However, I have referred to lessons learned exercise under way. That will make recommendations and inform what we might be determined to do in the future. I am not going to pre-suppose what that will say. At least to the specific mention of Fort Valley in the motion and, indeed, in the context of today's debate, I should first of all say that I do not always agree with Mr Kerr. I think he should speak through his persona as the convener of the education committee a lot more often rather than whatever other persona he speaks with. However, I meet Ken Thomson on a regular basis and I find him to be very forward thinking and I am trying to lead a college that is fundamentally responsive to the needs of the community. Undeniably, there has been challenges in terms of the industrial relations at that institution. Clearly, that was around the issue of the utilisation of assessors and instructors and replacing lecturing roles. I think that it is important to say that we should not dismiss the importance of those who work in colleges as assessors and instructors. That is a long-standing practice. They play a very valuable role. Clearly, the specific circumstances were such where there was a suggestion that people should transition from one role to the other. There was a process of industrial action around that. My expectation and hope would be that agreement would be reached, but if agreement could not be reached, there should be some form of arbitration mechanism. That is precisely what we have through the NJNC circular that was issued. We now have that mechanism. Indeed, that was what was utilised in the specific instance of Forth Valley, which resulted in agreement with the union position and the resolution of that particular instance. Indeed, a very clear statement that that was not something that was intended to be a national policy. I see that I am up against the time. I would have liked to have said more, but I want to fundamentally set out that, having been the Minister for Fair Work in the last parliamentary term, the importance of fair work across the entirety of our labour market is important. Our college sector should be no different in that regard. Members can be assured that I will do everything that I can to make sure that fair work and harmonious industrial relations are a feature of our college sector going forward. Thank you Minister, and that concludes the debate. I close this meeting.