 I am sitting in Studio Saptar which is an alternative theatre space in West Delhi in the Shadipur neighborhood. With me are Sunil Shanbhag, Brijesh and Komita. We are sitting here because for the last 10-12 days we have been working together to create a new play. The play is called Katha Kaal Ratri Ki. This is a play by Jannatimansh written by Komita and Brijesh and directed by Sunil. I am going to engage them in a conversation about how this play has come about, how the collaboration between Jannatimansh and Sunil has come about and so on. Sunil is a theatre director based in Mumbai. He has long experience of working in Mumbai in at least four languages and some of you may have seen or heard of some of his most significant plays of the last few years including Cotton 56, Polyester 84, Story, Business, Song, Sex, Morality and Censorship, Word Zip in Utterd and Blank Page. He runs two theatre companies in Mumbai, Arpana and Studio Tamasha. Oh, right. The space is called Studio Tamasha. That's right, Tamasha Theatre. And he is with us. So let's just start with this Sunil. How did this sort of, how did it happen that you were here? Well, actually my first direct association with Jannatimansh took place when the Freedom Theatre from Palestine were here visiting on a long tour, study tour. Of course, I have known you in the past and have seen Jannatimansh work. But actually coming to the space and working directly with Jannatimansh actually happened at that time. I think I spent about four days working with the young Palestinian actors. And that was a very, very, I would say, very stimulating experience for me. And also, you know, then got the feel of Studio Safdar and the kind of space it is. And there is a kind of kind of kind of spirit because, you know, in the sense that I think small art spaces, you know, which are curated spaces or accessible to both audiences and theatre makers are vital. And you see that all across the country's spaces are open. And I really felt that that connection was very, very important. So when this suggestion came up that I would actually direct the play for Jannatimansh, I was excited because, you know, the form is challenging. Actually working with a completely new set of actors who I have no experience of working with before. That was very challenging. And also very excited to work with two writers who are steeped in the tradition of Jannatimansh. But also will be available in the rehearsal room. That's a luxury for us in the theatre scene. So I think it was a combination of all these things. This is Janam's 50th year. We were formed in 1973. And in March 1973, we complete 50 years. So, Brijesh, how does this production fit into the larger scheme of our 50th year? When we decided to do 50 years of Janam, celebrate. So we decided to have many things. But one of them was that this has to be some kind of continuation of our work. And also a new beginning in a way. So we decided that we will get eminent directors and they'll come and direct us in this space in street theatre. Sometimes in children's play, Shelly Sathya is going to come and do children's play with us. And also digital performance which Mallika will be doing. So Sunil was part of this that we thought of him as that he'll come here and direct us. And that will add to our strengths in the sense that we will get kind of a training on the job from such an eminent person as Sunil. And this will help us in our future work. Whatever we take from here will help us in our future work in street theatre as well as in proscenium. So that was the idea basically. So that's how it actually has a link with 50 years celebration. And why Sunil? Because Sunil's work actually if you look at it, I will say that it's kind of a street theatre in proscenium. Because you see, when I saw Cotton 56 and I was really, that's the kind of play which Janam should have been doing. I felt that this is the history of Bombay's trade union movement and how it was linked with the culture and the shayari tradition and how it was said. I thought it was amazing and it was very good. And Sunil we were talking to him and he said that once they brought the play to Delhi and Delhi audience laughed it up. So something which happens in Mumbai's history, why did the Delhi audience laugh it up? So he was telling me that they were discussing that many people have that kind of experience. But more than that, you see, there's been a history of trade union movement in Delhi also. And that is also helps in connecting with Mumbai's trade union movement and the history of that. So I thought that that was one of the reasons. Those were one of the reasons in many other reasons. People have been associated with Sunil in art management and smart courses etc. So that has also been there. There has been a link. He has been familiar when he came for freedom theatre. At that time also we saw some of us saw how he was working with these people. So I think that was the reason that we thought of Sunil. And also our earlier experience with Abhishek when he came here and worked with us on Tathagat. Abhishek Majumdar. So that also I think we thought this is the kind of association which is going to help Janam in growing. And when Sunil got in touch with you and said that you should write the play, what were your first thoughts on what you wanted to do with the story, with the structure and so on? Frankly at that time when Sunil said that he would like me to write the play, my first instinct was that will I be able to write. Because it is my first time to be working with Sunil and as Brijesh has been saying that he has a big body of work which he has seen. He has a politics, he has a kind of aesthetics. So in the beginning I did not have any structure in my mind that we would do this. But when the first thing happened, it was quite clear that Sunil also wanted this and he was already studying feminist fables. So it was something to do on the question of gender. But then when we talked more than once online, the structure was more clear that we are fables, which are fairy tales or Panchatantra. We will do something with these kinds of stories. And even if there is no one-to-one connection in today's era, but a larger commentary that we are seeing around us, we wanted to do the work on it. So I mean initially there was no particular structure in my mind, but as we started talking to each other, we realized that there were certain ideas that both Sunil and I, and then I roped in Brijesh also, and you were also part of the whole process. So we had some commonalities, some... a kind of thought that we wanted to take with us through the drama, we saw a common... we saw some common strings working together. And now the play is almost ready. We are going to be performing in two or three days time, Sunil. What was your starting impulse in thinking about the play? And could you tell the audience how the play... what's the story of the play in a nutshell? I've been thinking for a while about what we could do. There are certain... I had to think of something within the parameters of street theater, as I understood it, the half an hour, 20 to 25 minutes length, also the circumstances in which performance will happen. My last experience directing the street theater was from the mid-17s. So it's been a long time. But I can imagine that on the street what could happen, that kind of thing. So I felt that, you know, as Komitav was describing, can we tell a familiar story and subvert it? And I think that works always very well, because, you know, there is a... In India we are always hearing familiar stories, but the way they are told are always different. Every telling is different. So I thought, can we use that idea? Tell a story that is familiar to all. And then subvert it so that suddenly you are discomforted. I mean, the familiar suddenly becomes unfamiliar. That was the starting point. And that is what I really shared with them. And I think it's moved too well beyond that, because now it's not just talking about that, it's also talking about the whole idea of rewriting history. It's also touching upon the idea that, you know, history belongs to those who are in power. But that doesn't mean that you just accept it. There are many invisible histories, or histories that have been invisibilized to the detriment of the larger group of people, etc. So these are the areas that the play deals with. Using a lot of theatricality, using this character of a writer, a mysterious figure, but who writes in low Bhaasha. So it's the tension between the state language or the official language and the language of people. It's about rewriting histories, about voices that get invisibilized. It's all these things. That's really the broad canvas of this play. And Vijay, the play uses two languages, in fact. There is what might be called a standard Hindi, which we usually speak in cities, that type of Hindi. And a different type of language, which you can call Hindi, or Bhojpuri, or whatever you want to call it. So what is the politics of this play about the language? The source of the play, if I can say that, that mentioned something, in which we thought that this play can come from Bhaasha and very strongly. Because when Komita said to me on such a fable and on a story, to subvert a family or story, like Sunil said, the first thing that came to my mind was to go back to Katha Saritsagar. That's a text by Somdev, translated sometime in 13th century as in that time, because that is in Sanskrit. And Somdev was from Mukashmir. But the original text that is what we call as Bhritkatha, which is not, it's not available. It's kind of not found. So the preface of Katha Saritsagar mentions the story of how Bhritkatha came about. And in this, there's a tension between some kind of a local language, which is called Peshachi, and the Sanskrit. And the King, Satvahan King, refuses to hear this story and refuses to publish the stories, which are written in Peshachi. And because of that, the author goes and burns his stories and he's telling the stories to animals and all and that kind of thing. So that tension, that seed of the clash between the, not the clash, but the language policy of the state was there. So that's something which we were seeing today also. So that it kind of a uniformity all over that we should have a standard kind of language which is there everywhere. So that tension was there. So that is how we thought of that and because the seeds were already there in the story. The seeds were also there of why the author burns his book. So that question was immediately, burning comes like Perumal Murgan saying Perumal Murgan as a writer is dead. So that was also, the seed was already there. So that's how we came to this play actually. And the language, yes, the language is when we wrote for the first time, we wrote in the simple language. Then Sunil mentioned that, okay, the story within story, since it's a story of that writer, it should be in a dialect. So we changed it into dialect. But also there was one section, the song, which was already in a certain kind of dialect because that was supposed to be the creation of people end of Kal Rathri. So that was in dialect. So that is how we brought about these two different languages, not really languages, basically the spoken languages with a dialect which is quite local. So that's how we tried to create that, that tension within the play. How did the writing process actually happen, Kamita? From the beginning, the first conversation with Sunil in which he shared some ideas with you, you had some ideas, and then you wrote in British. So just walk us through how the play was written. So after having our first meeting with Sunil, basically we started to read. Like I said before, there are many stories like Jatak, Panch Tantra, or Theri Gatha, or Katha Saritsagar. We read a lot of such things on the internet. There were a lot of small stories. The first idea was that we would take a story which would be familiar and we would subvert it, like Sunil says. But when we started studying, when we started researching, we understood that there was this anxiety that maybe we wouldn't get a familiar story that we would share with the audience who knew about it. But because we had read so much, we wanted to stick to the idea of fable. It was a very interesting idea. So in the beginning, we read stories. Basically, the preface of Katha Saritsagar and the premise of it, which is different from Katha Saritsagar, there were already many subversions in it. They are very traditional, conventional, patriarchal, regressive stories. They were very interesting. We wanted to take elements from them. So when the writing process started, we understood that maybe we couldn't take a story but we could take different stories and make a story. So we could make a fictional account but the elements that we were reading were in it. So we presented a draft and when we talked to Sunil, Sunil wanted to have a verse on the language so it would be good. So we started working on it. Then the story of Katha Saritsagar is the format of the story. There are so many plots in it. So in our meetings it was clear that we would use the form of the story which Jan Nathimanch did in his plays. So the story in the middle was written by Brijesh. The poem by Brijesh which is a local dialect was written by Brijesh. Many parts of it were already written and the inputs were written in it. Then we talked again about what we are trying to say. What is complicating the script. Or what are the big two or three things we are trying to say. So that was a process in which basically the structure slowly started to appear on the paper. By the time we reached our second draft that we shared with Sunil. By that time we were clear that these are the things that we want to talk about. The challenge was also which I think is also because we have seen Sunil's work. So as I said in the beginning that we understand the kind of aesthetics that builds on stage. So we visually wanted to see the script and when we worked with Brijesh because Brijesh has a lot of text and because I have already written it and directed it and made it short, so I was thinking of a visual idea. So I think that collaboration has worked pretty well in this play. Once the draft was shared, Sunil said that the draft is ready that we can work on it on the floor. And Sunil was very clear from the beginning that he would like to work with the text and not just devise the play. So that was very clear from very clear instructions for us. So that has been the larger process and when Sunil came here then also the text started to change and in fact for me you know I could see many more things that I was thinking in a certain way while I was writing but when I heard the voice of the actors with small nuances added more layers before going on the floor just in terms of reading I feel that it has flowered. I think it has become much stronger what it was in our second draft. A lot of your work, Sunil has been in one way or the other about language and about words and the importance of words as the carriers of meaning. And so in that sense this play very much is part of that much longer engagement with language and words and so on. Could you speak a little bit more about this? In today's time there is this interesting categorization of theater into physical theater in text based theater. We firmly belong and according to those categories in the text based theater is also conspired to be the older slightly more conventional form and I always smile because these categorizations are very ridiculous when somebody speaks the body is also in motion and there is no question you can't speak without the body you can't make meaning without the body. So I really believe that these categorizations don't really work I do wish that the problem is that a lot of young people don't work with text anymore because even in drama schools across the country not enough importance is given to text and most of our literature most of our theater has been text based theater in the form of school and you need to look around for work it's your ability to be with text that's going to be up there so I come very firmly from a tradition of words and I think that came about mainly because I learned my theater and Saty Dev Gupta it was really again a manner of words and ideas so that was ingrained in me for us the word is very very critical I think words, languages, ideas this is what we are interested in and in a culture where the oral tradition has been so strong both words and music work beautifully together and when I say words I mean prose, music these things work very well with audiences here and yeah that's been my favorite playing down as an actor Brigitte this has been your first time working with Sunil what are the one or two things that stood out for you as an actor as an actor I found that actually I am no actor but I have been doing street theater for a long long time and that is the kind of our voices are strong have become strong now when we came they were not so strong we can reach out with our voices and all and there has been always this tendency to cover the maximum audience when we we are in acting area though we have tried silences in street theater earlier as well it's not as if we have not vulgar silences and with what we have done what we have done but it says tendency it becomes that you try to go overboard and you just try to reach to the audience somehow or the other you have to capture this audience and I think when I was doing the Kathakar which is the role that I have been given in this play and my tendency was to just move around a lot, cover the things go out to the audience by raising my voice raising my pitch and the usual techniques that are there but somewhere Sunil just told me this thing that you just have to stay stay with the audience talk to them and just get across your meaning by you can be strong without actually shouting so that is something which has helped me a lot in the sense that in performing this I can see the way I have changed from when I did Kathakar on day 1 to when I am doing it now that I have brought down the speed of delivering my speech but I have not lost the strength of delivering my speech that is something which Sunil has not really but slowly he has done that and not the day 1 he never told me anything on day 1 day 1 I thought oh I have done well but then later he brought it in and he just kept on telling me so that is way of working so that is there and also the way I see with the other actors as well it is a very democratic way of working if I can everyone speaks I feel sometimes I think oh gosh these people are they have not even been one year doing theatre and they are telling Sunil to act like this so I am really amazed but that is how we all of us do that and then Sunil listens to them sometimes they take this thing and then he acknowledges also this idea has been given by Kaliya this is what he told me so that is there but then also he really saw that at some point of time he will also draw a line now you do this since you have brought it in you better as well do it and show it and the more things you bring in the more Sunil can actually polish and sharpen them that is the way I think you are accepting as far as and how has it been for you Kamita as an actor I have I don't want to I mean it is a I think it is a very frivolous word in many ways but I think I have been amazed by how perceptive Sunil is as a director as a perceptive it means that actors have this tendency to try to do something and they have their own instincts and some logic in their head and they are following probably the logic of the play narrative so on and so forth but how he catches that thing that he actually catches the exact intention of the actor that the person that actor is following when she or he is presenting something so it happens that you are doing this so why are you doing this but Sunil also asks why are you doing this but he also tells me that I know you are doing this because you are thinking this and sometimes I am like yes exactly and then if my instincts are not right and I am not doing it he has envisaged the role because I have also written the play so in my head I have also envisaged certain characters in a certain way so that I think has helped me also to kind of you know to think and rethink about how am I doing it the other thing is to also you know I have been struggling a lot and I see many of us I have been struggling with this to say the worst and how we have to play the worst I think it is not just to play the worst but the techniques that Sunil has worked on even when we are doing a prose drama the techniques are how they work so when Sunil said that we will do the worst it is very interesting for actors I couldn't really understand what does he mean I thought he means that it gives less and so on and so forth but actually now while I am doing it as an actor I think that saying things in worst is quite challenging and struggling so one is still struggling with the level of points that for me there have been many Eureka moments about myself that oh yes exactly that is what I was thinking how do you know this and once an actor understands that then it becomes and acknowledges it that ok this was my instinct and the director knows it then there can be a negotiation about it if an actor is not able if the director is not able to convey that why I think that your instinct is not going in the right direction and it has to take some other direction then sometimes and specially actors like us who are not trained in acting and we have learned whatever we have learned on the job I think these perceptions and these little little techniques that he tells us and I would not call them tricks because they are not tricks they are like techniques that one has to follow so I think that is going to stay with many of us for a very very long time Sunil you have been working with a large number of actors over the years so on this is your first time of working directly with Janam the last time you came you know we were working with mainly the actors of the freedom theater what have been your experiences observations the atmosphere in the rehearsal room is really wonderful in the sense that you know the decision mentioned the democratic democratic doesn't just happen I mean you can be in a situation where you say you know all of your negative solutions and actually nobody is forthcoming because there is no tradition of speaking you know your mind and I think the fact that Janam in itself has created a space where people are allowed to express themselves as part of your ongoing way you all work I think that is important and that allows for this kind of thing so having something to say and then being unafraid to say they are both getting involved and sometimes they feel that even if you it doesn't matter you know when you make a suggestion however silly it may sound it would actually turn out to be quite important and I keep my ears open for that because honestly you know what is augustian at the end of the day theater is a work with a group of people and at one level you have a device where everybody is involved at the other end of the spectrum you have this director or to your process right I think there are advantages at both ends and somewhere I think we are going to take but more important for me so this is the fact that most of your actors have a lot of experience of working on the street which I don't have and I am absolutely unashamed to say that I don't know so I am very eager to understand I think you mentioned Kalyar solution I felt so stupid after all I was kicking myself I said why didn't I think of that he just said that I had these guys lying on the floor playing these fire sticks and he said I don't know how to start the band so that it actually brings absolutely nothing what was I thinking right so these nuggets have come and I think the director will be foolish not to listen to these things at other levels it has been a bit of a struggle because you know there are very major differences in approach and that is bound together I was prepared for that but I think we both side the actors we have tried to find negotiators some kind of middle ground see the point is that in 15 days one has to actually make a production and have it out okay half in a length is much shorter than what you wish to work with whatever it is in the length and it has to be ready so I think the biggest challenge has been to balance the teaching and trying to get people to a certain level with the demand to actually have a production ready on day one which is not under rehearsed okay and that's a matter of great pride for me is that the opening show should never look under rehearsed you know so that's really been actually the exercise for me has the length of the play also been a challenge for you you can do one more run through or you can go over and have a drink in half an hour remember that I have done plays which are two and half hours long they never seem to end when you are in act 2 and sometimes when you do double shows in a day you lose sight of where you are in the play as the interval already happened no no no the brevity of the length is not a problem in fact I have had great fun playing with a certain pace that I hope that this length actually allows for yeah right so well thanks very much all three of you this has been a very engaging conversation for me as well even though I have been involved with the whole process from the beginning and let's see we are going to open the show in three days time and let's see how the audience respond to it and I hope that we do justice to cross a hundred shows wow that would be great thank you so much thank you