 Out of the comfort zone, I am your host, RB Kelly, and it is a beautiful Tuesday afternoon. Now one of the things we all struggle with, people problems, right? You have to convince someone that, yes, in fact they do want to purchase your car for this price instead of that price. You have to convince your partner that, yes, we do want to go to this restaurant instead of that restaurant. You have to convince your kids that doing their homework and going to college is a good idea. And even sometimes you have to convince your boss that you are worth a raise. Now the trouble is, most of the time we don't actually know how to do that. We have these instinctive tendencies to just push harder, push harder, push harder, and try and force the other person into doing what we want. Unfortunately, that's not how people work, which is why today I brought in expert negotiator Chris Voss from the Black Swan Group, and he's going to tell us all about negotiation and how you can make it work for you. Thank you for coming on to the show, Chris. How are you? Yeah, my pleasure. I'm happy to be here. I'm really happy you're here too. So would you be willing to tell our viewers a little bit more about how you first got into negotiation? I was an FBI agent, as everybody is, right? And I was on a SWAT team and I hurt my knee actually. And I loved practice response and I figured negotiators, that wasn't hard. I was on a SWAT team. That was a lot of work. Negotiators, they'd sit around and talk on a phone. I could do that. And I sort of ended up being just a lot more challenging, a lot more enjoyable than being on a SWAT team ever was. That's such a cool story. And I actually, I love that we can see your book behind you because I've got that book and I've read it over and over. And when I first started reading the techniques, I thought, no way. This is too easy. That will never work. But then I actually tried some of them. And it was like, oh, my gosh, this argument is over 30 minutes faster than I thought it would be. Like, how is that even possible? So I love that you've written it. Yeah, that's crazy. The way we're wired just doesn't make any sense at all, does it? It really doesn't. So can you tell us a little bit more? I keep interrupting you. I'm sorry. No, that's fine. I just want you to keep going. I want to hear more. Can you tell us a little bit about why people struggle with negotiation? That's a good question because somehow we get taught lots of wrong stuff. I mean, there's a lot of really bad ideas that are taught over and over and over again. And or, you know, it's human nature. Like Stephen Covey's advice from way back, think first, understand and be understood. Nobody follows that. You know, we're determined to be understood first. I mean, we want to make our case. We want to make our argument. I think, I think, Ron Reagan said a long time ago, if you're explaining or losing, yet everybody wants to explain. So that's just not the way it works. So it's a complete opposite. And that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I know in my life, if I'm having an argument with, say, my husband, for example, I want him to stop and listen and notice where I'm coming from. And once he does that, if I can just get him to do that, then I'm more than happy to listen to him. But the trick is he wants me to sit and listen to him just as much as I'm like waiting for him to sit down and listen to me. So what are some of the techniques that you encourage people to use to start changing those habits? Yeah, well, we have this overriding desire to be heard. I mean, the only trick is getting that desire on the way, because what you're talking about just now is two people are just dying to be heard. I mean, just want to be heard and willing to relax once you're heard. So whoever can get that under control first is going to win. Whoever can sit back and go, yeah, you know, you know, really good reasons for saying that. I mean, why do you say that makes a lot of sense? And if you could, at that point in time, you're kind of like startled. You're like, wow, you know, you do understand. And maybe out of here, you out now. I mean, it's kind of crazy. It's a second mover's advantage, if you will. And so the first mover's advantage. That's really interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about how the FBI started to realize this technique instead of just doing what they were always doing? Well, I bet it got into the negotiation figuring that it was a rational process. Back when it was started, you know, everybody was into logic and it was into reasoning. And the practitioners of it started to find out it wasn't working. And then in the domestic situations, which is where we got people surrounded, we started to get the idea that maybe it was more crisis intervention than negotiation, per se. And then I started working kidnappings, which international kidnappings is really, you know, it's a commodity exchange. Kidnappers is horrible. It sounds like businessmen, they got a commodity they want to trade. And they were so used to doing business and so not used to being listened to, to have empathy, which we now call tactical, they used on them. We catch them off guard and we forget out there that really in real business negotiations, the tactical advantage is hearing somebody out, making them feel understood and they have a tendency to just pretty much give you 70 to 90% of what you want once you're there. That's really, really cool. Now this is something, after I read your book for the fourth time, I finally started to notice, oh, I've started to do that. Oh, I've started to do that. And it finally started to really make sense for me. And the thing that really put it all together for me was my husband came home one day, end of the day, he was frustrated, he was tired. And I'd been busy with my business, so like the house wasn't clean. There was no food on the table. And so he was just super frustrated and we got into a fight. And usually my tendency was to be like, well, you're a sexist pig. But not quite that strong, but something kind of like that. But in this instance, I used your technique of tactical empathy. And I think you called it labeling and the mirror. And I told him how he felt and why he felt that way. I said, you're feeling frustrated and angry because you're underappreciated at work and you come home and you feel like I'm not even caring about you either because I'm not doing the things that you've asked me to do. And I put in a couple of those and he went from like rrr to just, that's right. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is mad. So what are some of the times that- Well done. Yeah, thank you. I was so proud of myself, pat myself on the back for that. And I've started using that now in my sales calls when I'm negotiating my prices, anything like that. And it's been brilliant. So are there any stories you can tell us about how you've used some of these techniques or even you could explain some of the techniques themselves? Well, what was really cool about that, if you think about it, once you expressed them what he was thinking, that took you 30 to 45 seconds and bang the arc. Now, otherwise, if you guys would have kept arguing, I'm sure that argument would have gone on for hours. Like, that's the insane thing about this. This indirect approach, it's emotional intelligence is what it is. It's the application of emotional intelligence. And it's taken a side route and everything gets over faster. I mean, it just gets over so much faster. That there's a woman I know is an executive in Silicon Valley. She was talking to her husband one day. And she all of a sudden she said to him, why do I talk into you? Like today, yesterday, it's really fun talking to you. And he said, well, I've been taking this negotiation class where they had me read this book, never put the difference. And they're making us use it on our significant others. And she went out and bought the book for all of her girlfriends, husbands, and boyfriends. I've had. Wow. You know, we're helping make the world a safer place, a more stable environment for us poor husbands and boyfriends. Otherwise, we have no emotional intelligence at all. That is so cool. And I've actually, I've begged and begged my husband to read this book because he has to deal with stupid people at work who aren't listening, who want to add more work, poorly planned work at the last minute. And I want him to just, I want him to know about the mirrors that in your book, one of the examples you used was there was a woman who had a boss who was always piling on extra work. And so she used this mirroring technique. And it got him to totally change his mind about all the extra work that she no longer had to do. And so your book was packed full of these really cool stories. And I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share one of those stories to our audience. Yeah, well, the story that you're talking about, the mirror technique, which is so crazy, it's the easiest, the simplest thing. It's a Jedi mind trick. And it's just, you don't even have to think to mirror. All you have to do to mirror, all you got to do is be able to hear. And if you heard the last three words that someone just said, and repeat them back to them, there's something crazy about that that keeps people talking and get some thinking. I mean, I still don't know to this day why it works. And the woman you're talking about, she was, her boss wanted to make all these paper copies when they were going to put everything on digital file. And the boss was old school, and I still like paper. And a file was going to be boxes and boxes and files. And he said, I want two paper copies. And she goes, two paper copies? I said, yeah, well, I could have two paper hard copies for, even though a client doesn't ask for it, we have, I like to have those two hard copies. And she said, the client doesn't ask for it? She goes, yeah, well, I realize a client probably doesn't actually want it. So we probably don't need two copies. How about if you just make one copy? And you can store it wherever you want. And she said, store it wherever I want, because yeah, well, you can put it in my office. Put it in your office? So yeah, you know, actually there isn't that much room in my office. You know, maybe we don't need it at all. As a matter of fact, you know what, let's just go with the digital copies. I mean, I can just, it's nuts. It's absolutely nuts the way that works. It works with everybody. People that work for me use it on me. I hate it when I figured out an hour later what just happened. Now that you say that, my plan was to repeat back at you what just happened. But then you said you hated it. So I was like, okay, I guess I won't do that. I wouldn't have realized it until after we got off the air. Okay, so I'm curious, aside from the mirror, what are some of the other negotiation tactics that people should be using in their day-to-day lives to start strengthening these relationships and really start listening to each other? Here's a great one that people could use and you gotta track, because otherwise you're not gonna believe it. It's gonna work. The thing about through the course of the day, how many people say, how are you? When they don't mean it. I mean, it's a cliche that people ask us how we are. Really, they got something on their mind. And they're trying to get a quick check to see whether or not we're in a bad mood. You say, how are you? And the person goes like, ah, it's a horrible day. You're like, all right, I didn't want anything. I'm gonna keep going. So, and probably through a given course of the day, I bet three people will ask you, how are you? And since the conversation is just beginning, you don't know what to stake yet. Because low stakes practice for high stakes results, okay? So you practice in your low stakes conversation. Whoever says, how are you to you for the next 24 hours? Look at him and say, sounds like it's something on your mind. Oh. And see what that was, it was a label. So you get to practice your labels, sounds like, and what it'll do, because my director of operations, who happens to be my son, he's my company's chief negotiator, his name is Brandon. He was telling me the other day that all the phone calls he gets, people call him on the phone and say, how are you today? He goes, sounds like it's something on your mind. To get right to the heart of the conversation immediately, the person who's got something to say is really happy because they get to talk about what they're dying to talk about right away. And you probably just saved anywhere from three to five minutes wasted on whether or not anybody actually cares how anybody is at that moment in time. That, oh my gosh, that is mind boggling. I am going to do that now because I actually hate small talk. So when people ask me, how are you? I'm like, great, I'm great. Thanks for asking, how are you? Yeah, right. And it's just that kind of meaningless exchange but asking, it sounds like there's something on your mind. I am so excited to try that now. My goodness, that's brilliant. So how did you come up with that? Where did that get started for you? Well, you know, I originally learned in the hostage negotiation with the FBI. Actually, before I learned that, and you know, since I was unqualified, they had me volunteer on a suicide hotline. And I, you know, I was just so amazed that the skills I learned on the hotline could help people in stress turn their day around, turn their life around. I thought, you know, it's gotta work. What if it just works in normal life? What if it's not just required for stress? And I just started applying it and everything I did. And you know, some people, till I learned it, I would drive crazy. But I never let up. I always kept learning it. I actually used to do that thing called the label. I used to use that on hostage negotiators that I worked with. One time we were having a discussion when I was very senior with some other senior negotiators. And I said to one guy, I said, you know, it sounds like this means a lot to you. He goes, don't use that hostage negotiation stuff on me. And I looked at him and I said, sounds like that bothers you anyway. Yeah, it really does. Oh, that's funny. Oh my goodness. That is so cool. I have to let you know, like negotiation, body language, those people skills, those Jedi mind tricks, those are my favorite, favorite things, which was one of the reasons I was so excited to have you on the show. And so I just wanted to ask you like all the questions and just listen to all the stories. But we're gonna take a break for just one minute, but before we do, what's one thing you'd tell our audience members that they should practice? That they could just try in the next 60 seconds that maybe they could start getting used to these negotiation tactics? Well, let the other person talk first and then paraphrase what they just said. Just something that simple. Before you have your say, just paraphrase. See what happens. I think you'd be amazed at how easy it is and then how productive the conversation gets. All right, you heard it, viewers. That is an easy trick. I'm going to, I listened to what Chris said, so now I'm going to paraphrase it. Go listen to what someone else said, let them have their say, and then tell them what you think they said. Try that over the next 60 seconds and we will be right back. Hello, I'm Yukari Kunisue. I'm your host of New Japanese Language Show on Think Tech, Hawaii. Called Konnichiwa, Hawaii. Broadcasting live every other Monday at 2 p.m. Please join us where we discuss important and useful information for the Japanese language community in Hawaii. The show will be all in Japanese. Hope you can join us every other Monday at 2 p.m. Aloha. Hey, aloha, Snap Energy Man here on Think Tech, Hawaii, where community matters. This is the place to come to think about all things energy. We talk about energy for the grid, energy for vehicles, energy and transportation, energy and maritime, energy and aviation. We have all kinds of things on our show but we always focus on hydrogen here in Hawaii because it's my favorite thing. That's what I like to do. But we talk about things that make a difference here in Hawaii, things that should be a big changer for Hawaii and we hope that you'll join us every Friday at noon on Snap Energy Man and take a look with us at new technologies and new thoughts on how we can get clean green in Hawaii, aloha. Welcome back to Out of the Comfort Zone. I'm your host, Arby Kelly, here with Chris Voss and you had homework over the break, which I hope you got up to. But now that we're back, Chris, I'm wondering if you can tell us, not only we've talked a little bit about how to make people feel understood, but I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about how to get people to tell us what we want to know. Yeah, you know, it's a great question because we used to have a saying in hostage negotiation, what's it gonna take to get the bad guy out? He's gonna tell us. All right, so how do we get him to tell us? How do we get him to give us the keys to the deal? You know, the crazy thing is, everybody knows they got to gather information. They think that's why we're taught to ask questions, that we should ask good questions. Questions are not necessarily the best way to gather information. People, if you ask somebody a question, you know, they know that you're trying to get it simple, and two out of three times, it causes people's guard to go up, depending upon the circumstances, the situation, the type of person that you're dealing with. So interestingly enough, you know, the thing that I talked about earlier, labels, are a great way to get people talking without them knowing that you're asking a question. Like we'll frequently say, well, you know, one of our customers, one of our clients was in the middle of a construction negotiation and there were some executives, they thought were a problem on the other side, they didn't know for sure. A great question would have been, you know, what's the hold up? You know, where's the breakdown? Are some of you guys causing problems? Is it somebody over there that's reluctant? All righty question. Instead what they did was use a label that thought there were two executives named Tom and Bob, let's say. All they simply did was say, seems like Tom and Bob are the insurance. And their counterpart immediately blurted out, no, it's not Tom, it's Bob. I mean, immediately. So it's a combination of making an observation through basically an educated guess and putting it out there. When you say it seems like, feels like, looks like, you know, you're inviting the other person to speculate with you. They don't really realize that you're asking them a question, they don't feel required to respond. Consequently, they're much more likely to blurt the answer out without even thinking about it or give you a lot more information than they would have if you'd asked a straight up question. I mean, we got people who use it so much instead of asking questions. They've actually referred to it as unlocking the floodgates of truth telling. Whoa, unlocking the floodgates of truth telling. That's powerful. Yeah, it really is, it's really, it's kind of the same tactic used against terrorists. There was a study done on it, soft interrogation versus harsh interrogation. And this exact tactic with terrorists was referred to as the closest thing law enforcement has to a truth serum. Whoa. It's either a truth serum or it unlocks the floodgates of truth. Either way, it's an incredible way to get people to tell you stuff. Oh my gosh. Now Chris, I've read your book at least four times, but even just talking with you face to face is making me totally rethink some of the things I do for sales for those one-on-one conversations that just, even just having you talk to me is making me change that perspective in my head. This is so cool, but. Good for you. Yeah, thank you. I want you to come back to the show over and over. Gosh, but can you tell us? You're gonna be dangerous. I'd love to have you back, oh my goodness. But I'm wondering if you can tell us some of the stories about how you've actually used these cues or anyone on your team has used them. And some of the results you've seen. You know, important negotiations in our business deals, we don't bother trying to get people to say yes. I mean, I was trying to close a very important client just a couple of months ago on buying some tickets to a train that we were putting on in New York. Now, tickets for our train are not cheap. I mean, we're expensive. It's gonna cost you just short of $2,000 to sit with us for a day in a group of about 50. And so I'm trying to get this guy to commit to the tickets and he was, I knew he wanted to buy but we were having trouble settling on the number tickets and I needed him to buy because we're getting ready to sell out. So I needed him to buy it was a Thursday night in Los Angeles and I needed to buy now because business starts three hours earlier in New York. And so instead of saying, how many tickets would you like to commit to or can you commit to three tickets? I sent him an email that said, are you against committing to three tickets right now? Because no is a much better answer than yes. And then I also said in the email, are you against paying for them before the business day starts tomorrow because we're three hours behind New York? And he immediately emailed me back, no, it was a great answer. He said, no, I'm not against making a commitment. You've got to commit one for three. My assistant will get back in touch with you in the next hour and we'll pay for them right now. Whoo, wow. And most people, almost every salesperson I talk to says, oh yeah, I'm so great. I asked a bunch of questions to get people in that yes mindset. So when I really ask for the sale, they're ready but it sounds like that's actually the opposite of what they should be doing. Now the problem is, is so many people try to get people in the yes mindset it's been so overdone. If you will, people are battered with this. And so what happens if you try to hug a battered child, they flinch. So as soon as you start trying the yes mindset on people, I'm not saying you can't close some deals with it. I'm saying you're closing maybe 20% of the deals that you should be closing with the yes mindset. And a lot of people, to them it's like trying to describe a jet airplane as somebody who's only ever seen a crop duster. They're gonna say, you know what? I've been flying for a long time and I've never seen anything that can fly that fast. Well, you know, I get news for you. What's actually happening is, the people that we train are flying past you so fast you don't even see them. That is so cool. Oh my gosh. Oh, that's one of the best ways people can learn more and keep hearing these stories, keep hearing these tactics from you. Well, the best way, we've got a newsletter that we put out, it comes out once a week. It's complimentary, so it means it's good price. It's free. A friend of mine that worked in the federal government, he used to like to say, if it's free, I'll take three. Sounds like a federal employee, right? Yeah. So anyway, the quickest and easiest way to sign up for a newsletter, it's short and it's sweet. A lot of people used to keep their skills sharp, comes out on Tuesday morning, it tees you up for the day, it's like a warm up for the day. Text the word, FBI Empathy, all one word. Don't let your spell check, auto correct and put a space between FBI and Empathy. But send a text message of FBI Empathy, all one word for the number 22828. And that's 22828. And you get a message back to sign up for the newsletter. It's a gateway to our website. You get everything through it. There are training announcements, it's access to all the information we have. We got a lot of free content out there to help people get better at negotiation. We get stuff with charge, it's cool. But there's a lot of free stuff that you can take advantage of as well. And viewers, you don't know this, but I'm actually on that newsletter. And so I get it every week and it's worth it. I love reading it, I love seeing what they're up to. I follow Chris on social media because he's always posting cool stuff. And so if you missed it, you can just pull out your phone, open up a new text message, text 22828 with one word, FBI empathy, FBI empathy. So please, if you haven't already, make sure to do that because if you're talking to people and you're trying to get them to do something, these cues are going to make your life so much easier. So Chris, we've only got one minute left. I'm wondering if there's any parting advice you'd like to leave with our viewers. You know, the secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control. So if you're talking to somebody that you can tell they just want to be in control, let them feel like they're in control. It's amazing at how agreeable they are once a need to feel in control has been satisfied. That is really cool. And I can see how that works. Not only with, I can see how that would work if my husband tried it on me. I've tried it on my husband, it also works. But that's something, if you let people feel like they got the final say, they have the choice of where things are going. And I think that ties back to your making questions no-based instead of yes-based then people are much more likely to cooperate. Thank you Chris. Yeah, absolutely right. Yeah, this is so cool, oh my gosh. So viewers, you want to be on that newsletter. You want to find them on social media and you want to start learning more. Wait, I probably should have phrased that as a no-question, shouldn't I? How should I phrase that? Do you have more, do you have too much in your life right now? Do you have too much in your life right now viewers? If the answer is no. You have too much money. I love that, do you have too much money? No, then get on that newsletter. Thank you so much for coming, Chris. We'll stay on the line and we'll chat afterwards but viewers, we will see you next week. See you then, bye.