 Okay, we are going to go ahead and get started. Thank you so much. I hope you all had a nice break. So now we are going to go on to our next session where we're talking about concerns of non-scientists. And we have a great presenter who's going to start us off and kick off this session for us this afternoon. I would like to introduce Dr. Jessica Kwan. She's an incoming resident on the Lab Animal Traditional Service at the University of California at the Davis School of Veterinary Medicine. She is actually throughout her talk going to give you some of her background and her experience. I actually wanna give you my personal story with Dr. Kwan, which I am so endeared that she came through our organization doing a rotation and considering her laboratory animal medicine experience. And I was able to meet with her there. And I was so impressed when I met with her hearing about her experiences and hearing about how she wants to really drive forward how we communicate when we're doing research that involves animals. I was just inspired and I'm so glad that she was able to join us here today. I am gonna let her kind of go over her background, but I do wanna bring up one thing that she specifically mentioned in her bio, which I think really speaks and will come through as she talks to us. She says, you know, she hopes to integrate her passions for laboratory animal medicine, research, public health and mental wellbeing into a fulfilling public service career. And she wants to create of a supportive and collaborative environment where innovative research and quality animal welfare synergize. And I love that. I had to read it verbatim because I don't feel like I could synopsize it for all of us. But really, I think that speaks to all of the things that she's gonna talk to us about today. I think you'll really see this come through in her presentation. And now I would like to turn it over to you, Dr. Kwan. Good. Kwan, can you hear me? Good? Okay. Cool. Thank you so much, Dr. Thompson-Iretani for that. I'm kind of blushing now because I'm not as familiar with speaking yet in public. But again, I'm Jessica Kwan. I actually just became a DVM, gosh, five days ago. So this is actually really exciting for me. But yeah, so I'll go back to my slides. I like don't know where to look. I feel like this is very relatable for people speaking for the first time. But the title of my talk is How to Talk to an Animal Enthusiast About Animal Use and Research. And as I learned earlier, probably shouldn't use use, so that's something I'll add to my next talk. And a disclaimer is any stories, opinions, suggestions and advice presented today are cultivated from my own life experiences. They don't necessarily reflect those of the institutions where I was fortunate to study and grow as a scientist, a veterinarian and a human. So I'm gonna do something a little bit different first. I'm actually putting my acknowledgements first. Cool, okay. I'm gonna go a little bit different and do my acknowledgements first because I think that helps a lot with the flow of how we're talking today. And also because I wanna lead this talk with gratitude. I have been very fortunate to be invited by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine to talk to you all today and particularly by Dr. Thompson Airtani. And also I had a really great time working with Dr. Serafin for our dialogue from a scientist to a non-scientist. I also wanna thank the presentation moderators, Dr. Newsom, Dr. Huang, Dr. Landy and also the poor program organizers, Naya Johnson and Mariah Wall, especially for helping get me out here. And more so again with leading with gratitude, I wanna thank all of my mentors, both the scientists, the veterinarians and everyone in between for really bringing me here to who I am today. I also wanna thank all the animal enthusiasts out there who are joining in today and I'll talk a little bit about what it entails to be an animal enthusiast. And most importantly, I wanna thank all the animals that I've worked with throughout my life, whether they're someone's pet or animals that I have experienced working with in a lab setting, they have all really helped me become the person I am today. And so I'll talk a little bit more about that. So when I was preparing for this because I am supposed to be coming at it from the angle of a non-scientist, I really scratched my brain because that is a lot of different people. But ultimately when it came down to it, I wanted to try and see who we're going to be the ones coming to attend this workshop. Who was really invested in what we wanted to talk about here and really it's animal enthusiasts or anyone who likes animals. And so obviously when you have such a big category, you have to make subcategories. And for me, I thought of it as differing levels of enthusiasm or exposure to animals. So this could be children learning about the diversity in the animal kingdom. This could be pet owners who consider animals as their family and are really motivated to find the next best thing to treat them with. This could be your volunteers in a wildlife or an animal shelter setting who may not have a medical background, but they're really there and care a lot about how those animals are either being raised so that they can be adopted out or either being raised so that they can be re-released into the wild. Then also within the umbrella of animal enthusiasts, you do have to acknowledge the animal activists petitioning for improved animal welfare. And I will be honest, I know that it does come with some negative connotations, especially because of the contentious relationship and also the fact that there have been some physically harmful things done to animal researchers in the past because of them. However, I do wanna come from a place and maybe this is my own naive thinking, but ultimately they're here because they care about the animals too. And if we can synergize with them and work with them, I think we can get to a better place. Now we delve into the science portion because I think a lot of scientists are animal enthusiasts. So you have the animal husbandry caretakers who are day in, day out, making sure these animals have the proper food, water, and bedding, and also that they have the best quality of life given the circumstances these animals are in. Then of course you have the scientists who either study them in the field in their natural habitat or in the lab, either using them as a disease model and things like that. And ultimately, this is me personally, is at the top, I put veterinarians because who else would spend four years of their time in really grueling, didactic learning, go into the clinics to then go out and want to improve animal health, but also wanna care for each person's individual pets. So with that, some goals so that I don't get too distracted with what I'm talking about today, first I wanna promote live animal veterinarians who stand at the crossroads of research and animal care. I know quite a few people who are logging in now come from this realm and they're also interested in how do we communicate better, not only to the general public or the other animal enthusiasts out there, but also to other scientists that they're working with. I wanna also promote a collaborative environment for discussion, provide tools to have positive interactions with animal enthusiasts, and also gain feedback from you on how to present better in the future. So in order to connect with you guys, I hope you guys will indulge me. I wanna tell you a little bit about my history as an animal enthusiast. And I think some parts of my story will resonate with you and some of it might be like, wow, I never really thought about it that way. So at seven years old, I loved animals and I told my mom I was gonna become a veterinarian and my mom being a very practical lady and also very supportive sent me off to go volunteer at a clinic. And what I loved about working in the clinic surprisingly as a middle schooler was that I really loved working with the animals but I also really loved working with the clients. And obviously I didn't have a medical background at that point, but at least I can still connect with them and learn more about their animals relationship to them. Once I got to high school though, I fell in love with research and I had an opportunity to conduct some really cool research. And I loved the power research could give you because you have this question that you're really interested in and you have a hypothesis that you think is maybe right based on all of the background studying and other research that other people have done. And then you go out and give the tools to answer these questions. And I think very early on, I was lucky as a scientist that a lot of my hypotheses were actually proven incorrect. But I think the value in that is even with negative results, now I'm able to go, hey, I tried this, maybe you should tweak yours a little bit so you could try something else. And so for me, that was really valuable lesson as a scientist. So then I went off to college and I was really interested in being in research and I was very fortunate to be in a lab that had such a supportive environment for my growth. I wasn't just considered an undergraduate student that's there scrubbing dishes. My graduate student really made it a point that she wanted me to understand the tools I was working with, but also the importance of why we were doing what we were doing. And so I was really nurtured in this collaborative environment. And I think that really made my love for research grow more and more. In the back of my mind, I think I never really wanted to let go of this stream of being a veterinarian, but slowly more and more, I was seeing as my tools and my proficiency in research was increasing, it became a more viable option as a career. So I took some time and I stayed with the lab after I graduated as in the realm of disease ecology. And what I loved about that field is that it's interdisciplinary. So you have a lot of different people from different fields with different interests and expertise coming together. And at the end of the day, we're all trying to answer this question of how does this disease manifest who are the players in the disease? But more importantly, either how can we diagnose it? How can we prevent it? And the cool part with my research is because I studied it in grape plants, we actually even got to go out into the community. And so we talked a lot with the vineyard growers and we would offer them like, oh, these are things you should look out for. And they would give us feedback of like, well, actually this is nice in a lab setting, but it's not really working in the real world. And so that gave us an opportunity to come back into the lab and rethink how we approached it. So from there, I decided kind of the in-between, again, still didn't wanna give up being a veterinarian. So I decided to go and do my master's in science because then at least if I really loved it more, I can go do a PhD. If not, I can wander off into some other aspect of my life. And so I was again, very fortunate in my graduate schooling that I was my professor's one of her first students. And what that gave me was the power to build a lab community and a culture that I really resonated with. And one thing I really enjoyed was mentoring students and giving them the same tools that I was given in my research career as an undergraduate. And it was really actually in grad school that I was introduced to lab animal medicine because it was the first time I was working with animals, vertebrate animals. And this is kind of where everything has been really positive and yay science since then, but this was really my first encounter with contentiousness and sort of this negativity that does come with any aspect that you work with. And so while I was in the middle of this as a researcher, I was learning so much about how they care for animals. I was involved with the eye a cook. I learned about writing my protocols, getting them improved, but at the same time, the thing that really hung heavy on me was how contentious of a relationship we had between our veterinarian and the researchers. And honestly, if being sort of from my personal opinion, I think both sides didn't get it right. I think the researchers were hesitant to reach out to the veterinarian because traditionally at that time, the veterinarian was sort of dismissive of some of sort of their knowledge base, even though some of these scientists have worked with this one particular species for over 30 years. But at the same time, because of this hesitation to reach out to the veterinarian, sometimes they let things slip past until it was sort of past the point of no return. And honestly, at the end of the day, who really suffered the animals? And so for me as someone again, who's always thought about being a veterinarian, that didn't quite sit well with me. So for that and some other reasons within research politics that I'm sure you guys are all very familiar with, I really wanted to rethink my life and I really wanted to know what else can I do, especially since now animal welfare, animal ethics was now put on my plate as something I knew I was really passionate about. So at that time, while I was sort of wrestling with this, I was like, okay, well, if I wanna go back to veterinary school, I should get some veterinary experience. And I actually fell into wildlife rehabilitation. And so I started off as a receptionist and this is going back to, I love talking to people, I love connecting with people. And so I actually was a receptionist and I would answer phone calls about, hey, there's a raccoon under my deck, what do I do? And you just, you know, you walk them through like, why are they there? How do we ask them to nicely leave or how do we learn to coexist with them? And really for me, what sealed the deal and put me back on the path of becoming a veterinarian was that one of the technicians came in to my office and was like, hey, do you wanna feed a baby squirrel? And I was like, heck yes. And so I did and that was sort of the end of it. And I fell in love with the clinical medicine again. And for me though, it was so awesome to work with so many of such a diversity of species. And I knew that was something I really wanted to focus on when I went into veterinary school. On top of that though, I really loved working with the volunteers because again, they don't have medical training, but they love the animals. And I think that's really again, going back to the point of being animal enthusiasts. That's why, again, we're all here today, but that's also why we care so much. And so I was fortunate enough to get into veterinary school because at that time there's only 32 schools and you're taking a gamble. But I went in knowing, sort of not knowing a lot about lab animal medicine, but knowing that because of my research background and kind of this feeling of what else can I do to improve animal welfare and also just understand better what lab animal vets do. I sort of jumped into that as my interest and I was very fortunate that I've had a lot of lab animal veterinarians really support me and give me a lot of good insight. And it was actually a summer fellowship at University of Missouri actually that changed my entire perspective on the relationship between scientists and their veterinarian because they had cultivated a relationship where there was mutual respect. And in having mutual respect, you can have better open communication. And from that, you can make sure that the animals are well cared for while sound researchers also being conducted. And so that's really the motivation that pushed me to where I am now. And so now I'm going to be starting at UC Davis as a laboratory animal medicine resident and really the reason why I picked UC Davis was because for my entire life, I've had amazing mentorship and I've been so grateful for it. And I hope to do the same for the other veterinary students there. If nothing else, I really want to impress upon all veterinarians that we have to be able to support each other through understanding why animals are used as models for the diseases we study. So thank you for indulging me on my life story because I think that really sets up for the motivation for why I'm here today. So these are some of the things I've been told by non-scientists or animal enthusiasts and this spans kind of some of the things that I have up here, you may have heard yourself either as a researcher or as a veterinarian. So one of them is, wow, you must hate animals to be able to experiment on them. How can you condone animal use in research if you're a veterinarian? Doesn't that go against your oath? So basically you're supporting the torture of animals just so humans can find a way to get skinny. And the one that actually hit home for me the most is I guess it's important to have vets for research animals, but as a veterinarian, I can never do that. And the reason why this one hit home the most and has really helped me to develop why the reason for why I'm here is because it has the implication of are you still ethical if you work in this field? And it's something I wrestled with a lot and that's something that I know that we're gonna address hopefully today and in the upcoming sessions. And I'm showing you the negative stuff, but I also wanna highlight the positive things I've heard. And a lot of these came after I was able to have a discussion with a person and I wanna put them next to each other because I think a lot of times we were so focused on the negative that it kind of gets us in that mindset of like we have to be defensive and we have to be combative, but really I think if we're able to communicate well, we can have people change their minds. And so I don't know much about your job, but that is admirable of you to go into this difficult field. We need more people like you who care deeply about both animals' wellbeing and sound research. And the one that I actually like to answer all the time is I really hope one day we don't have to use animals in research, but then again, I guess you'd be out of a job. And I think we can all agree here that we may be far away from a point where we don't use animals as our disease models. However, I think that is the goal if we can reach that point. Me personally as a lab animal vet, if there's a day where I don't have a job because we have found superior ways to test all the new technologies and all the surgical tools and things like that, I'd happily go back to wildlife rehab and feeding squirrels. That's definitely never been a question of mine. So I wanna put this up there because not everyone is a veterinarian in this room, but I think it really applies to a lot of what we do, especially when we have animals in research. So being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health and welfare, the prevention and relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of public health and the advancement of medical knowledge. And although this is part of the veterinarian oath, I know this is something that scientists take into their lives when they are working with their research models. So I also have to make a plug for lab animal veterinarians and this is more to go out to anyone who's not a lab animal vet. A lot of times we see veterinarians as just doctors or maybe even welfare advocates, but also as a lab animal vet, you have to be a facility operator. You have to know your laws and regulations really well. You help review protocols to make sure that they are actually feasible to do and humane. You are a husbandry expert. You also go out and talk to the general public and you also will provide some consultations for researchers and also you can be an emergency leader and troubleshooter for instance, if an outbreak happens in your vivarium, usually the veterinarians will step in and say, okay, these are the steps that we're going to do. And ultimately the goal of having a good relationship, a positive collaboration with scientists will always lead to improved animal welfare and sound research data. So I wanted to present five different communication strategies that I've developed over the years and I love anyone's feedback on them because I think they're things that I try to take in my daily life. So the first one is present facts and connect with emotions. So we've already kind of talked about this before where we want to be factual about what we're saying because then it's not as disputable, but a lot of times I think even as a scientist myself, sometimes I can come off as a little bit too stiff or robotic because I just try to hide, not hide, but I tried to just stand by the facts because I know that they are solid. But the thing is that like Paul had said earlier, we really want to connect with emotions because we're talking to people. Again, remember we're talking to animal enthusiasts. They want to know why we are able to do what we do and by explaining to them the value of what we do, it helps a lot. So another strategy is to engage the audience by asking them to repeat back what you have said, which is called mirroring. And this is actually something they teach you in conflict resolution. And so the idea, especially if it's a one-on-one conversation with someone who may have a differing opinion from you, is to just take the time to say like, hey, you know, I just mentioned to you about Aya Cook. Do you mind telling me back like, did that make sense to you? And have them repeat back because sometimes we get so caught up in our own emotions because we're trying to push like our understanding and we're trying to push it because we really believe in what we do. And sometimes that gets like, we kind of get lost in that message. And so by engaging them, it allows dialogue to happen. And again, like Paul had said earlier, it allows for them to come to the table and give them a voice and it makes them feel heard. And a lot of times from my experience, people just want to be heard and then you can start the dialogue from there. The third one is to support and uplift other scientists and veterinarians together. And this is more so in the realm of make sure that we are all on the same team. Sometimes it's easy to sort of fall on sort of like, just listening to how people might address, say the veterinarian. So like I've heard before like, oh yeah. I mean, I understand you doing research on animals, but you know, I can't believe your veterinarian's okay with that. And being able to be like, well, actually my veterinarian who's overseeing this has specialized training and they're very well versed in this. And I know they care about them at animals as much as I do. So I know they'll do a good job. And so being able to connect, and same thing for veterinarians is to support your scientist. If anyone tries to say anything, just be like, hey, you know, I think my scientists are really knowledgeable in the animal species they're working with because they have a lot of, they've spent a lot of time with it. But obviously we can get together and we can learn more about this model together so that we can make sure the animals are cared for. So it's always going back to the animals, but at that same point, we're now uplifting the scientists we're working with. The fourth is something I actually learned in client communications in veterinary school is no one to leave a conversation and have a closing statement. And there's times where you're talking to someone and it's a lot of back and forth and you realize very quickly, it's just contentious. They're not listening to you anymore. And a lot of times people don't realize that it's frustrating, but it's also emotionally taxing and it makes us less willing to have those conversations in the future. So knowing when to leave the conversation when it's no longer productive for either side is actually a tool that I hope everyone can learn, but also kind of be able to leave with a closing statement. And so you'll actually get to see this with Dr. Seraphine and my conversation, spoiler alert. But basically the idea is like, hey, you know, I don't know, I don't think we're going to come to agreement here and I think emotions are really high right now, but I just want you to know that I really care about the animals and I've chosen to become a lab animal that because I know where I stand ethically and morally with them and I know I will do a good job of protecting them given the circumstances these animals are in and so, and then that's sort of like where I'll end the conversation, I'll sort of walk away from it. And the fifth one is something that I've learned over my lifetime, but also something I hope you can bring into not just conversations, effective communication, but also just your life in general is be brave, but also be able to forgive yourself. And I'm not actually naturally a good public speaker, I'm actually pretty introverted and I'm not very confrontational by nature, but I know that the field I've picked, I will have to have these difficult conversations and they will not always go in my favor, but a lot of times I try to remind myself, the part of being brave is being able to step into the realm with the knowledge that I know I have because I know it will benefit the people that come behind me. So I'm really there as a lab animal that to protect my animal care team because I know that they can't always be proud of what they do, but I know that they do such a good job and they really care about these animals. And I'm also there to protect my scientists, but at the same time, if you are reading a situation, you feel like it's not going to be a productive conversation or maybe it's an unsafe scenario, or even if maybe you're not emotionally at that point where you can have a constructive conversation, it's okay to disengage be like, hey, maybe this is not the right time to talk about that. Can we pick this up at a later date and be able to forgive yourself for those moments? Because I think a lot of times, especially when you're an advocacy group or you're in this position where you feel like you always have to be on the defense, I think it's really easy for us to be hard on ourselves. So again, these are my five communication strategies that I've come up with. And the last part of the veterinarian's oath, I want to share with you guys today that I think again applies to all of us is I will practice my profession conscientiously with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics. And I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence. And again, this is something I do see with a lot of the scientists I work with is that we're constantly trying to look more into, okay, what can we do better? How can we do more background research so that we can improve the protocols that we're doing? And so that's why I feel like in terms of where my life has taken me, I love research, I stand as a veterinarian before you guys, but I still really love research and I love being involved in it. So ending point, we are all animal enthusiasts and that's why again, we are here at this workshop today. And even if all of our thoughts and sort of all our thoughts don't align or we don't always agree with each other, I think what we can really remember is that we're really here for the animals. And if we can have an effective communication, open talk about this, I think we can really reach a good understanding. So yeah, and that's it, I guess. But yeah, I'm hoping to turn it over to our conversation I had with Dr. Serafin. Thank you, Dr. Kwan, that's very interesting. It's at this time, it's my pleasure to introduce Dr. Catherine Katie Serafin. She is currently a tenured associate professor and the graduate program director at the Department of Psychology at the University of Texas at El Paso. And she has key research focus on how diets and high fat and sugar change individual sensitivities to certain drug abuses, such as cocaine, and how they affect the dopamine system. Dr. Serafin is interested in considering differential age impacts of age, sex, and diet. And on the sensitivity to the current prescription drugs, such as antidepressants. And she has recently been appointed as an executive branch fellow for the American Psychological Association Program. And the rest of her bio is in the systems. And what Dr. Serafin and Dr. Kwan are gonna do is they're gonna do a little bit of snare role-playing. But Catherine, you wanna kick us off for us? Sure, yeah, thank you so much. And thanks so much for the invitation to participate. And thanks to Dr. Kwan for a great presentation. So we did a little bit of a role play where we're talking to each other in two different scenarios. So the first one, you'll see Dr. Kwan playing a college undergraduate student, maybe a freshman that approaches me about learning more about research. And in the second scenario, you'll see us as two guests at a party. And one guest finds out that my profession is that I work with animals. So I think that's probably a good intro for our dialogue. Hi, Dr. Serafin, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I haven't been in college for very long, but I'm really excited about science. And I really want to learn more about research, but I didn't know where to start. But I also really liked animals. So I saw that you work with animals. So do you mind telling me a little bit more? Sure, absolutely. And glad to hear that you're excited about science. I think that's always great. And so glad that you reached out. So in my lab, we study really complicated human diseases, obesity, binge eating disorder, and substance use disorder. And we try to understand what's going on in the brain, underlying these disease conditions by using rats as a model for human behavior and human neurochemistry. Okay, what do you do with the rats? That's a great question. So because we're a behavioral neuroscience lab, we combine a couple of different types of techniques, including behavioral assays. So you're taking intro psych right now. So I know that you know about classical conditioning and operant conditioning. And so we use techniques like that to try to understand animal behavior and how it can be changed by a number of different types of manipulations. And then we also look at the neurochemistry of the brain to see how it's changed by those same manipulations. Okay, how do you look at the brain? What does that involve? Yeah, so I mean, the complicated part of neuroscience is that in order to study the brain, it sometimes means that we have to extract the brain from the living animal. And so when we do that, we often have to first obviously euthanize the animal before we extract the tissue and then process it in the lab. This is an unfortunate part of the process. It's always been challenging for me as an animal lover myself, but we don't do it thoughtlessly. So we put a lot of care and thought into the experiments that we're doing to make sure that each individual animal contributes meaningfully in some way to our understanding of these diseases and to hopefully lead to a better understanding that can maybe someday help us prevent or treat these conditions for humans. Okay, I guess in terms of you mentioned that there's like things that you do to like make sure that they're cared for, what does that entail? Like what does that look like? Yeah, absolutely. So for any type of experiment, there's gonna be something called an institutional review board. And that's gonna be a committee of people that evaluate the experiments to make sure that they are in line with the national ethical standards. For human research, that's gonna be a regular IRB, an institutional review board. But for animal research, it's a little bit different because we don't have the ability to communicate with the animals, to ask them if they're okay, to ask them if they wanna continue in the experiment, to ask them if they're comfortable or if they're feeling stressed. So we have a different committee. It's called the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee. And that committee, the IACUC, is made up of members of the general public, scientists like myself, and then also veterinary staff. So trained folks with medical background in clinical animal care. Those individuals are gonna evaluate the experiments before we're allowed to start anything. And they'll let us know if what we're doing is in line with the national standards of ethical and best practices to maintain animal welfare. And really their job is to make sure that we are doing everything we can to minimize pain and distress of the animal, while also providing a safe environment for us to understand the complicated questions that we're trying to ask. Wow, I didn't know, that's really cool that there's actually so much going behind the scenes to make sure that these animals are cared for for the research. And definitely I will say it makes me feel a lot better, especially since I really love animals, but I also understand that sometimes in terms of doing research, there's just some things you have to do. So thank you for taking the time to talk to me about it. Absolutely, yeah, and if I can also just say one more thing to hopefully alleviate your concern. I have found that the best students to work in the lab are the ones who are animal lovers because they understand the importance of working with the animals and the importance of compassionate care in all that we do to make sure that we're not just protecting the science, but also protecting the animals welfare and making sure that they are well cared for in order for us to proceed. So I think you'd be a great member in the lab. If you're interested, I really hope that you'll submit an application. Yes, I definitely think I will now. Thank you so much for your time. Absolutely, great chatting with you. Okay, so that was our first dialogue. I don't know if we have the poll questions queued up, but Jess and I did come up with some questions to poll the audience about what you just saw. So if you could take a moment to answer those. I can't see on my end how many people have responded. So I trust y'all's judgment on a good time to end the poll. Well, we'll give it a full minute to let everybody respond. Perfect, thank you. I think it's slowing down a little bit now. We're almost hitting a 50% mark. So once we get there, we can cut it off, I think. Awesome. And I'll take a moment also to thank you all for participating and engaging with the poll. It helps us know if what we're saying is hidden. All right, let's share that with everybody. Great, so it looks like the majority of folks thought that that conversation was both constructive and effective. A couple of people thought it was a little bit frustrating and maybe inadequate or counterproductive. And for the second whole question, most folks thought that the researcher presented facts and connected with emotions. And a lot of folks also selected the researcher who had a closing statement and knew when to leave the conversation. Thanks so much for that. So I guess next we can play our next dialogue, which will be a little bit of a different tone. I think you'll see it right away, the tone shift. And then we have a couple more poll questions after that as well. Hey, so I heard from the host that you do research on animals. What exactly do you do? Oh yeah, nice to meet you. I'm a neuroscientist, so my research focuses on trying to understand really complicated human disease and we use rats in the lab. Oh, like you torture them to do your research? I definitely wouldn't say it that way. We have really strict protocols and we try to make sure that everything that we're doing follows national ethical guidelines as well as guidelines set forth by our institution. But the nature of trying to understand behavior and neurochemistry means that we do have to use living animals. Oh, that doesn't, I mean, I understand using humans for research because they can say yes or no, but animals can't give consent. Yeah, that's a really, really good point and something that I think a lot of people would also be concerned about. We actually have a committee called the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, which is made up of community members, veterinary staff, but also fellow scientists that evaluate the work that we're doing to try to make sure that everything that we do minimizes pain and distress because exactly as you just described, the animals can't talk to us, they can't consent to the experiment. So we wanna make sure that we have lots of checks and balances in place to make sure that what we're doing does meet ethical guidelines to maintain the welfare and wellbeing of the animals. Well, I mean, I feel like you must hate animals to be able to work on them like this. I mean, I can't imagine you like them if you can torture them like this. No, actually, I'm a huge animal lover myself. I've had pets my whole life. In fact, my first pet was a rat and I really valued them and I enjoy working with them. It's one of my favorite parts of the job is getting to hang out with them all day. Wow, okay. But still, I don't know, like it just doesn't sit right. Like I can't imagine doing this for a living. It must, I don't know, you're just killing them. Like I don't understand. Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. It can be really challenging. I don't know if you're understanding the magnitude of sacrificing these animals for human gain. I mean, it's also for animal gain. A lot of the conditions that we study also helps animals. So we study diabetes in the lab, which is something that impacts a lot of domestic cats that a lot of people have. And so while it is challenging for sure and it is difficult, we believe that we're making a difference in trying to help animals and people. Well, I really think we should just end all animal research. Like I don't even know why it's still a thing. Why do you even have a job still to do this? Yeah, unfortunately, we're not quite at that point yet. I agree with you. It would be great if we could live in a world where it wasn't necessary, but we don't quite have the technology to completely replace animals at this point. And because of that, we still need to try to understand human behavior and human disease by studying animals. I guess, I don't know. It's still kind of weird. I still can't believe you could do this. I understand your perspective. I think we might not come to an agreement on it and perhaps we might not have a very constructive conversation while emotions are high, but I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me. Well, thank you for your time, but good luck with what you do. So hopefully a noticeably different interaction there. We do have a couple more poll questions related to that interaction if we could put those up. Thank you. I remind everybody of responding to polls that there's two questions. All right, we're getting close to that 50% participation in the one minute time point. So we'll just give everybody a couple more seconds to finish answering. There's still some robust responses here for this lovely scenario. So I think we've slowed down a little bit there. Why don't we cut it off there, Eric? And if we could make sure we scroll down and show both questions as well as we talk about them. Awesome. So I'll overview also their results. So for that first question, it looks like a lot of folks thought the conversation was frustrating. I think that's the most popular response. I can let you know that both Jess and I were frustrated in that role-playing experience ourselves. A lot of votes for constructive, effective, and unhelpful and counterproductive. So a lot of mixed feelings there, which again, I think even though Jess and I very much, I think are on the same side of the argument in real life felt that as we were engaging in that role-playing activity. For the second question, the responses show that the researcher presented facts and connected with emotions. The researcher had a closing statement and knew when to leave the conversation. And then a few votes for the researcher did not answer the animal enthusiast's questions. The researcher dismissed the enthusiast's concerns and 2% none of the above. And so I can't see you, Jess, but one thing that we had both talked about wanting to mention right after that one is that we did both finish that conversation feeling a little bit uncomfortable. And I think that reflects maybe both of our perspective on being on the other side of the uncomfortable comments. So one of the goals of this session was to see how difficult it was when it is a contentious conversation. And based on the poll results in your guys doing this, do you wanna make a statement on what you might do differently or what works or doesn't work in these situations? Sure, I think for me, there's a lot of needing to pause and wanting to make sure that what I'm saying is not dismissive. It sounds like I came across that way a little bit from the second conversation, I do apologize for that. It's challenging even when you're role-playing to respond to some of those questions as a person who genuinely cares about the animals and the science, right? And so I think, and you heard this a little bit in the earlier workshop, finding a way to pause and then respond can be helpful. I tried to do that when I was communicating with Jess, sorry, with the other party guest, I should say in that last scenario, but it can be really challenging to take a moment when emotions are high. Yeah, I think that the contrasting conversations were really helpful. So I think you both said you found the second conversation frustrating. So just hearing from both of your perspective, putting yourselves in those two different positions, what did you find the most frustrating? I can speak from my side as the party goer who's an animal enthusiast. I think for me personally, it was frustrating to be in this position personally because I don't agree with what I was saying, but at the same time, when I was really getting into the role, I think there was a point of not sometimes not feeling heard, but then also kind of for me, I think a lot of times people start to shift their opinion, but they still feel like they should either it's morally hold on to something that they've believed for so long. And I think that's really when I've noticed a lot of contentious relationships or contentious sort of dialogue starts to occur is when you are starting to get through to them, but because they've held this view for so long, it's not something you're going to change in just a single conversation. So I think Dr. Serafin did a good job of being able to exit the conversation at that point. And I did like that she acknowledged that we were not going to see eye to eye. And now thinking back to it, maybe if that person is having sort of a breakthrough like that, maybe finding a way of not necessarily saying like, oh, we're not going to see eye to eye, but being like, thank you for like just focusing on the pause, like even if you're not that grateful for that time or that conversation, but just being like, thank you for spending the time talking to me and like good luck with what you do. And yeah, that's the only thing I can think of really is like a lot of times, especially when they're that gung-ho going into a conversation, I find like, especially if they're getting emotionally flustered, like I was getting clustered. I was using a lot of the same words after a while and it became really hard to start to defend myself as like the party goer, animal enthusiast because everything Dr. Serafin was factual, but she was also really addressing the fact oh, we both love animals. And so I think it became very like, oh, she's human too. And it's hard to, when you are presented with that emotion, I think it's hard to be extremely dismissive of it. Yeah, I agree. I think the whole conversation just feels like one big pile of cognitive dissonance, I think, in sort of struggling between relating to each other but also disagreeing with each other. And I think, you know, when I've been in those situations in real life, the hardest part, as I said, is really kind of managing your own emotional reactivity. And for me, it's always defensiveness, right? Feeling like I'm being attacked and wanting to make sure that I'm still communicating clearly, but also trying to acknowledge that the other person is coming perhaps from a place of honesty and emotional truth for themselves too. And that part is hard. I guess if I were to redo that conversation, I might try a little bit more to try to acknowledge what the other person was feeling. Again, to make sure that they feel heard and make sure that what I'm saying doesn't discount their feelings and their emotions. Thank you. And I have another question. So we saw in our survey results that veterinarians and scientists, which are veterinarians and scientists here are some of the most trusted on this topic to, you know, give real accurate, good information, but not relied on as a source. So I just wonder from each of you if you have thoughts about how to bridge that, what would that, could that look like? Yeah, I can comment from, since I'm fresh out of veterinary school, I think one thing that we could do better as veterinarians is just support each other within the community. We have a lot of special, we have a lot of specialties within the veterinary field, so lab animal being one of them, but then you have your surgery, anesthesia, but we also have our general practitioners. And one thing that I actually had as an interaction recently is one of my friends went into general practice and she actually had a client ask her, hey, do you know anything about, you know, them studying COVID in animals? And it was very, it was sort of just like a very casual conversation, but because she was friends with me and I talk extensively about what I do, she was actually able to answer them and really helps the client kind of, even though it had nothing to do with their animal at that point, but gave sort of made them realize like, oh, it's cool. I didn't know we had veterinarians who are in this area. And so I think from a veterinary standpoint, at least in terms of having these conversations and how can we gain the trust is to make ourselves more approachable, which is something I think we've struggled with because a lot of our research, like for scientists and veterinarians too, it's like a lot of it is sort of feels like it's a little bit red-taped, but how do you still be honest and open about what you can talk about? Yeah, I think that's a great answer, Jess. I'll add to that just from sort of the more scientist perspective to say that I think our biggest problem, and it came up when Paul was speaking earlier, is we don't always speak the right language when we're trying to communicate about what we do. And I think what I'm working with students and trainees at all different levels, that's the number one thing that I try to impress upon them is so important because if you can't talk about what you do with people who don't also do it, you're missing your target audience, essentially you're missing the people that you need to reach the most. And so I think it's about learning how to speak a lay language in some ways, learning how to take something really complicated with a lot of jargon and put it into a format that other people can understand. And that communication will then lead to hopefully honesty and transparent communication and more constructive conversations around some of these topics. We have a question from Dr. Wang. Yeah, thanks. This is a question for both of you. Jess sort of alluded to it, but in your experience, have you run into questions from non-scientists that strike you as, oh, never thought we had to mention that kinds of issues that scientists probably ought to remember to mention. Were you able to hear that question online? Yeah, okay. Nothing's coming to mind for me immediately that sort of threw me for a loop. And I guess I will share that my experience with non-scientist communication often is at the K through 12 level. So I'll talk to a lot of students at different ages, but also elected officials, which are very different audiences, although sometimes equally challenging questions coming from both of those directions, but nothing comes to mind as shocking or that we need to include other than being, I think, comfortable talking about the regulatory aspects of animal research. I think that's something that we get a lot of training in how to write an abstract. We get a lot of training in how to present our data to scientists. We don't get a lot of training in how to talk about what we do, why we do it and how it's regulated. And I think that that part is something that you learn after you've had those interactions and had those questions a few times. Anything to add there, Dr. Kwan? I also was kind of pulling a blank, but I think, I guess like because we get so caught up again in sort of like being a veterinarian and especially since I just came out of vet school and I'm only surrounded by other veterinarians, I think sometimes I will fall into medical jargon. So for instance, it's like a very minor thing, but calling like, oh yeah, we give the animals feed. For the general public, that sounds weird. And so instead you could choose to use words like, oh, like we feed them food, this and that. And so it's like little things of just taking a step back and thinking of, okay, what is the jargon that I use in my everyday life as a veterinarian or as a scientist that may not translate well? So usually it's those questions if it's anything. So this is a little bit for Dr. Kwan, but you can jump in here too, Katie. So you talked about the challenges of bridging the communication and the buy-in between veterinarians and scientists. What techniques have you seen that are effective to make that a better relationship? Yeah, so I think the biggest one is making sure everyone has a chance to talk, but everyone more so has the chance to listen. Because I think in terms of my first experience of it being a contentious relationship, it comes from a lot of history of either side did not feel like they were understood. And I think that really builds a lot of tension. And then with each subsequent conversation you're coming in already with a very negative headspace. And so at the places that I've seen good communication I think it does take a point on the veterinarian side just recognizing that, yes, you are the medical professional and when it comes down to it you do have the deciding factor of if you think this animal is suffering you get to call the shots there. But also recognizing that the researchers are not necessarily out to just push just their research. Like a lot of them very much do care about their animals and they also understand that if the animals are not well cared for the data they produce is not necessarily sound. And so going from those aspects I think on a veterinarian side is just being understanding that sometimes your researchers do know more about the animal that you're talking about because say they've worked on this I don't know, yellow-legged frog for 30 years and you're fresh out of school and you've maybe touched a frog once and being able to recognize sort of where you would need to learn more. And then on the scientist side also understanding veterinarians are not out to get you they're not out there to like, haha like there's no gotcha moments like in the media they're not really trying to be there to say oh you're out of regulation here. They genuinely are concerned in the sense of they wanna make sure animal welfare is maintained but they also wanna make sure on your behalf for your research that anything that gets done is thoughtful especially to the animal life that's being used for it. And then on top of that making sure that your research can continue because again if we're very thoughtful in the beginning process of the protocol review things like that and we can make sure that whatever project we do end up being able to push ahead is gonna be mindful about who, what animal models we're using then at least we can continue on and I feel like I guess that's a really long winded answer for I think everyone just needs to listen to each other more and be more forgiving. Okay, a little bit more than eight seconds but how about you Dr. Serpent? How about from the scientists view? Yeah, no, I agree. I think what's worked well for me in the past is remembering that you're all human beings first and foremost, right? And like saying hello to each other asking how you are asking if you have holiday plans things like that. I think we sometimes forget to do that when we're all sort of focused on mission critical things and getting the work done and those small things can really help build collegiality between the two groups that are really working towards the same goal. But I've also found a lot of benefit in actually talking to our animal care staff about what we're doing and why we're doing it. Sometimes we don't take that time to say hey, this is actually a cancer project. This is an obesity project. This is a diabetes project. Here's what we're trying to learn. And I've found that having that conversation opens the door again to sort of more collegiality and feeling like you're working towards the same goal which I think can help bridge some of that animosity and turn it into more of a teamwork mentality. Thank you so much both Dr. Kwan and Dr. Serafian. This was spectacular. But just due to time, we're not able to actually get to all the Q and A's. So just want to mention, appreciate everybody putting comments or questions in there and we are gonna need to move on to our next presentation and thank you again to both of you. Fantastic job. Thank you.