 So I'd like to introduce our first speaker, who is Yasso Aramugam, who is Assistant Director of Data and Digital at the National Archives of Australia. Yasso, over to you for your presentation. Okay, so my name is Yasso Aramugam and I'm the Assistant Director General for Data and Digital at the National Archives of Australia. I'm joining today's proceedings from Australia. I begin by paying my respects and acknowledgement to the traditional owners and custodians of the land. I joined the conference from Nambri and Nanawal lands and acknowledge their continuing connections to the land and community. I also pay my respects to the people, their cultures and elders past and present. Before we begin, I'd like to share with you a bit of background about the National Archives of Australia. The National Archives of Australia was established in 1961 as the government agency that collects records of Australian government decisions and actions as evidence. We do this to connect Australians with the nation's memory, their identity and history. As illustrated on the slide, we carry out different functions in relation to information management, governance and also identify government information for securing as an archival resource into the future. One of the key parts of our journey is the challenge we set ourselves a couple of years ago to be a world leading archive in this digital age. The vision was a major challenge to the way we had previously operated in Australia and set the course for the ambitious programs of work we have undertaken and continue with today as we digitally transform ourselves. In a sense, it is a step change to our capability. We are conscious that the solution is not just technical, we also need to address and develop capability for our people and processes as well. To determine where to begin and what was needed, we considered our first principles. We mapped out the key elements we wanted to achieve as illustrated on the slide to use our North Star and provide a benchmark for measuring our progress. The key challenge we found was that our processes, even those that were digital were based on traditional paper, paradigms which didn't necessarily leverage the benefits of new emerging technologies. We had to consider new methods and archival principles carefully. We encapsulated our strategic direction for change in our data and digital strategy, innovation and emerging technologies provide context for this strategy as we introduce new capabilities to preserve our collection in perpetuity. Innovation is being driven by rapid advances in technology and necessitates that we transact digitally with our government partners and the public. Our vision will be achieved incrementally under our data and digital strategy, strategic direction by piecing together key building blocks over three horizons which strengthen our foundation, accelerate digitization and amplify the archives impact. So the technology goals we pursue under the strategy. The outcomes are two, there are three here, preserve and secure the National Archives collection, put in place information and technology that underpin a world leading digital archive. And the last one is enable modern and customer focused information and technology services. As you have all probably experienced the worst digital revolution does not stop and there are a number of challenges to digital transformation. Some of the key challenges we found on our journey are new technologies emerging. There's a horizon with new and emerging technologies that we must consider over time. Increasing challenges in related areas such as cybersecurity. This is an increasing focus for us as we move and work increasingly online. The move to new and emerging platforms for organizations such as cloud requires changes to infrastructure and the establishment of strong foundations for the changes underway. Greater public engagement through a diverse range of digital channels, whereas in the past the number of channels for engagement for end users was limited. Now it is quite extensive as we need to move to where users are. Exponential growth in digital information coming into our care. The Australian government is creating more and more data and information that will need to be retained to perpetuity. So in the sense that challenges have created a perfect storm. We could have been caught in a loop of self reflection and marring the problem with the emerging and new technologies you could be stuck considering then to commence the change. Realizing this need for a shift in our culture has been to essential to our learning. We needed to stop admiring the problem and instead start embracing the change. We could continue to consider challenges or begin working towards achieving our vision. Following a review of priority capability gaps, digital archival management or digital preservation was recognized as a critical need. A request for tender was made and the implementation of Preservica digital preservation solution was approved in 2020 to address the National Archives digital preservation needs. It was proposed to implement Preservica in line with an incremental plan. The goal was to realize incremental and progressive improvements to business capability and meet priority in a requirements including digital transfer and ingest, ensuring metadata for archival control, preservation of digital material according to best practice and staff access to digital records, upgrades and technical uplift or key in air systems in progress to address additional capabilities required to deliver an end to end integrated archival management system. So one of the significant changes is focusing on delivering benefits for the organization incrementally aligned to our long term strategy. In our business cases, we identify the benefits to be realized through our implementation roadmap. Like the Wanderer butterfly pictured, it has been a metamorphosis of sorts, changing the emphasis from the doing to the delivery of benefits, a vital way for us to grow as an organization. Another key cultural change is shifting the patterns of how we execute our work. The NAA National Archives values innovation, looking for new and better ways to do business and deliver digital services that are user centered and embrace the future. This has relied on the use of agile and user centered design methodologies to speed up process of delivering gradual change. This has resulted in quicker deployment and also the ability to pivot quickly to learn from when things have not gone to plan. Co-design is crucial to our success in delivering on our digital transformation and has been the business buying in particular bringing us stakeholders into the process as equals to co-design solutions to our challenges. This has helped improve our approach to different elements, including development of user stories through testing and user acceptance. While we have achieved our plans for implementation of digital preservation, we have not rested on our laurels. They will continue to incrementally and agilely change by selecting components of our integrated archival management system to address and improve. Two of the benefits we have discovered from this approach are the steady delivery of benefits and being able to pivot as necessary to new and emerging technologies. One area where we have delivered on is our new staff and discovery collection platform. Our co-design approach has been key to its success by meeting regularly with the working group comprised of key business stakeholders we received regular feedback to guide implementation. This approach empowers the business to innovate as these stakeholders are helping shape the in-product. We have brought the business with us by demonstrating the benefits to them. The solar engine offers superior search capabilities such as faceted search, full-text search, ranked resource in real-time indexing. Solar is used by many global websites and applications including Instagram, Netflix and eBay. This changed major advantages for our staff including new search options our older search systems were not capable of. As I mentioned earlier, we have made great strides in changing the culture but there is more to do. As much as we would like to say our journey is complete, we acknowledge that the pace of change requires continuous improvement and delivery of ongoing transformation. A key message is that change is the constant and new normal. This can cause stress factors on people as it is not just in the workplace that change is happening. We're working on working to ensure change management is embedded into how we tackle the challenge of moving to where we need to be. Our culture has changed and we'll need to continue to change to meet the challenges of what comes next. Before I conclude, I would like to share a little on the public access front which is an area we have not forgotten. We are currently exploring an enhanced public engagement experience using emerging technologies to provide a 3D rendering of our exhibitions. Digital Twin offers the public an immersive experience including high resolution images of display items and talking head videos providing additional insights into the content. The creation of a digital twin brings our exhibitions to members of the public who cannot visit our national office or who want to share their experience with others. This is a way of amplifying visibility of our collection and providing new and exciting ways to access curated elements of our collection. That concludes my presentation and happy to take questions at the end. Thank you. Thanks so much, Yase. That was fantastic. I liked one of your concluding points about the need for change being constant to meet our challenges. That was great. We'll take questions shortly once we've had the other presentation. So if you could turn off your camera, that would be great and I'll hand over to the next speakers. So our next speakers are Becca Mitten and Liz White from the British Library. Becca is the single digital presence project officer and Liz is the head of public libraries and community engagement. And I'll pass over to you now. Thank you very much. Hi, everyone. Thank you very much for coming along to our presentation. My name is Liz White. I'm a middle-aged white woman. I've got short brown hair and I'm wearing a blue shirt with orange flowers. And Dr Becca Mitten and I are going to talk to you about a project we've been working on for digital transformation of the public library sector. And we're going to talk to you in particular about how we're trying to build in the professional ethics of the library sector into that digital transformation. The project at the British Library, the UK's National Library, and our overarching mission is to make everyone's intellectual heritage accessible to everyone for research, inspiration and enjoyment. And this project fits into that in so many ways, not least in terms of making intellectual heritage accessible to everybody because we know and value the work the public libraries do at the community level. The professional association for library and information professionals has a guiding ethical framework, which is something that we've looked at and referenced throughout our work. It includes references to equality to public good, access to knowledge, intellectual freedom, impartiality, privacy and information literacy, all things that we want to be part of the work that we do as we try and translate what public libraries do into the virtual space. These are some key principles that we set out at the very start of the project. I think they're one of the first things that we wrote down when we first came on board with this. And again, these are about reflecting public library strengths and ethics. So we want our work and the transformation to be sector driven co created informed by what the sector and what users think. For libraries, we want the work to be trusted and authoritative. We want the digital interactions that you have to feel as trusted as those that you have with library professionals. We want to promote physical visits and loans to libraries as well. This isn't about switching from physical to digital. It's about amplifying what goes on and advocating for libraries in the round. We do here to promote the diversity, the inclusivity and accessibility of public libraries. We want to connect people and overall we want to deliver public and social value. We came on board in 2018. The project has been around in the sector for a while before then, and the concept of a single digital presence had been identified in an independent review for DCMS. But we were asked by Arts Council and Carnegie Trust UK to explore what this single digital presence for public libraries might look like on behalf of the wider public sector. And our first output here after a stage of research development, huge amounts of talking to users and non users was this report that we published in mid 2019. And again, you can see there that we were even in the very beginning, we were trying to build something that will be predicated on the ethics and ethos of professional librarianship and try and harness that energy and those key principles. And these are some of the key development phases of our work. After the research phase in house, we embarked on two early phases of digital product development, the discovery and alpha phase. And after a tender, we worked with a digital agency called DXW on this. And they helped us shape what users and non users might want through extensive user research and testing. And then also helped us build some prototypes to test those with users, non users in the sector, and to learn from those about what value we might want to add. We're currently in the beta phase, working with two more agencies after tenders, and setting up the team and thinking about branding work to build a working version of the service, making it available to users and to scale this up. And yes, we've been working with public digital and FCB Inferno, who are helping us with the brand work here. And then back to the discovery phase. This was really about exploring the hypothesis. So we were trying to see through conversation testing and co creation. What should a national digital presence for public libraries look and feel like and how would it uphold the principles and ethics that we've been thinking about from the off. We wanted to think about user journeys. How would it help libraries engage with current library users where there are 151 different local authority library websites in England, and how do we attract new ones. How would we join all that up as an ecosystem and create a new sort of value added experience. We went into the alpha phase where we then did some like touch prototyping and further user testing. So again, trying to think about how you could help people find out about their library and services. Very often non users told us that they would love to use services. They didn't know they were there. They were surprised and delighted by what was there. So how to make it easier for people to access libraries services, both physical and digital. And again we wanted to demonstrate how some kind of national platform could allow local libraries and their national partners to showcase their online offers to a wider audience, knowing that public libraries have a really great reach into communities and also have some of the most diverse users of any kind of art or glam form. We're kind of thinking about this approach in an inclusive and agile way. And this map is just to show you how iterative it was. Lots of thinking, testing, engagement all the way through as we start moving through all of these phases. And at the end of the discovery and agile phase we came up with a value proposition, again having ethics at its heart. It's all about trying to harness what we wanted the digital transformation to do and what we wanted to bring to life. So we really wanted to build that community of library lovers online and to forge that common identity, utilizing the expertise and values of librarians and librarianship. We were thinking about place to and how this could help grow strong and place based communities, just like public libraries do on high streets around the UK. Obviously as something in the glam sector, we wanted to improve access to a knowledge of public library and other collections. We wanted to make it easier and more intuitive to move from your local library through to other bits of that national library ecosystem. And also in terms of knowledge, we wanted to bring the role of librarians and other information professionals with us on the journey. And again, make sure that this was another way in which they could connect with the public. And all of this obviously has ethics at its heart. I'm going to hand over to Becca now, who'll talk you through to where we are now. Thank you, Liz, and hello everyone. I'm Becca Misson and I'm a white woman in my late 20s with sort of reddish brown hair and glasses and I'm wearing a white top. Yeah, so I'll kind of talk about where we are now, what we're developing and the kind of values that are underpinning that. So, as Liz mentioned, we're in the beta phase, which is funded by Arts Council England, and it's split into two, two strands. Through the discovery and alpha phases, we found that rather than creating one single national digital presence, it would be better to make a new national platform as well as to improve local library sites that already exist through a grant scheme. So yeah, those are the two strands of the work that we want to make sure that they're part of an ecosystem and they're kind of seamlessly linked together. Next slide. Thank you. So yeah, a bit more on the national platform. So the platform will amplify and celebrate what libraries are doing, but it will also connect users through to their local in person and online services. It will share content curated and created by librarians, things like book recommendations and other items of interest, such as like positive news stories from local libraries around the UK, because we know that a lot of the time there's such great things happening, but they just don't have the platform to be shared and people aren't aware of them. But yeah, it will also connect through to those local transactional services, like searching catalogs, reserving books and so on. And we'll be taking a convening role here. So as we have been through throughout already will continue to work with the library sector throughout on kind of every aspect of this. So the kind of outcomes. The national platform will provide inspiring up to state content generated on books, reading, cultural society, again with the voice of the librarian, the trusted voice of the librarian at his heart. And a key component will be searchable local national and online event listings because we know at the moment it can be quite hard to find out what's what's happening in your local library. So we'd like to make it so that people can easily easily get through to those local events but also see what kind of national and online events are happening of interest to them. Related relation to libraries, providing a focus for national campaigns and advocacy so we've had had lots of conversations with library staff recently, particularly this is always part of it but it's really been driven home recently how important this aspect of the platform will be. There's a real desire for a kind of unified national voice for public libraries so that we can kind of collectively talk about all the great things that they do and get more people through the door. So, and then the final thing on here is the partners will be able to share content with public libraries to scale through a homogenous system but local libraries will attain their autonomy and identity. So again, it's about the kind of coexistence of the of the national umbrella presence, but with that kind of localized improved presence underpinning it and enabling people to share their locally distinctive content and resources with that wider audience. So, in all of this that we've mentioned, it will be underpinned by privacy and data conscious principles. The graphic on the left was posted by Albany Public Library in America at the time, I think in December last year when Spotify shared its yearly wrapped roundup of users listening habits. So their statement, we don't keep track of what you read, watch or listen to because privacy should be the default, not the exception really reflects our own approach to this project and the thing that we're developing. And secondly, trust is a really important part of this so a fairly recent Ipsos Mori poll from late last year found that librarians are the second most trusted profession, second only to nurses by 1%. And the online offer that we're developing will really reflect, celebrate and draw on that trusted role of the librarian, particularly in a kind of time of fake news, which is particularly based upon social media. We think that libraries and their trusted staff can help people to discover with confidence. So we want this new national platform to be a space where libraries can kind of share content and engage with users in a space with library values and ethics. So it's hardware, yeah, that kind of trusted discovery is really kind of core to the whole thing. And they know that this is a, this is like a space that reflects what the physical library space is like, and is, yeah, sort of neutral trusted welcoming accessible and so on. And I think, yeah, it's kind of to end, I think that's a really important point that the physical library space is accessible and welcoming for everyone. And I think that to be reflected in an online space, which often more broadly on the internet doesn't necessarily feel like that. Libraries have a huge number of users pre lockdown figures put it more than Premier League football games, the cinema and the top 10 UK tourist attractions combined they have more users than all of those. And they're consistently found to have more diverse audiences and other cultural spaces as mentioned. So yeah, we want this online space to really reflect and honor that. That means things like committing to accessibility standards so everyone can use the platform. It will have an informal and accessible tone of voice and we'll take account of things like information literacy and digital exclusion, which was mentioned at the beginning. And yeah, so I think that's all from us. Thank you very much for listening. And there's our email address there if you want to get in touch about any of this would be very happy to speak to anyone. Thank you very much. Fantastic. Thank you both. And yeah, I absolutely love my local library so I'm really pleased to hear about that it might have a bigger digital presence. Okay, we've got time for a Q&A now. If you do have any questions, please post them in the Q&A and can pick those up. Or if you have any comments, please put them in the chat. If all the speakers could put their camera on and have their mics on as well that would be perfect. And yeah, I think I might start with a question for Yasso, if that's okay. So my question was around maybe the involvement of staff in trying to fulfill your digital mission. Was it the case that you had to recruit staff doing new kinds of roles to fulfill this strategy in this mission? Did you have any challenges finding this stuff? Yes, it was two-fold. What we wanted to make sure was the staff we had also had an opportunity to participate in the change. So we worked with them first. We identified a few change advocates, if you call them such, and took them on the journey on what agile and iterative development looks like. And generally, staff are passionate about an agency. They all want this good-being tent, you know. But it's getting over that silo thinking and looking at the need to transform into a digital agency and what that looks like. So before we went out and recruited staff because we thought that might come across as a bit of a negative change, we actually took, we looked at staff who were quite passionate. They were actually passionate about even the current processes, but we took them and formed a small core group and then showed them shortcomings, talked them through how we were going to solve it, and then we called them the change advocates. And that really worked. And then that grew into a design reference group. And then from there, it was still hard. But to answer your question, we didn't just go out and bring new people in and ask them to leave the transformation. It was actually in the end, the people we had were kind of the people who transformed. I possibly was the only new one in there. I had just come into the agency. Thank you. That's great. We've got a question now for Liz and Becca. So how are you proposing to handle AV content within the single digital presence? Is there a special unit looking at how to make this successful through screens within physical libraries? Liz or Becca, could I ask one of you to answer that one? Yes, sorry. Could you just say the second half of that again about physical screen, physical? Yeah, of course. So I'll say the whole thing again. So how are you proposing to handle audio visual content within the single digital presence? Is there a special unit looking at how to make audio visual content accessible through screens within physical libraries? Yes. One of the projects that we're also working on in my area of the BL at the moment is called the Living Knowledge Network, where actually for a few years now we've been running live screenings from the British Library in London out to public libraries across the UK and also increasingly from other public libraries to other public libraries through both physical screenings in libraries and an online platform that we put up in June 2020 during the pandemic. So we're drawing on the experience of that as we develop the single digital presence as well and we will put our content across there and make sure that the users can click through and find all of that. All of the screenings that we've been doing since 2020 are on a platform called livingknowledgenetwork.co.uk. I can put the link in the chat. So yes, we've learned a lot from that. We're learning about obviously using the analytics from that to understand how and when and what sort of content people like to look at, how to help libraries market that and again how we can use social media to understand what people would like to see, which then actually goes back into informing the BL's own programming. Brilliant, thank you Liz. We've got another question here for you both. So it's a question about your four element wheel model. And the questioner was wondering how place features in the digital offer. It is generally often considered that the digital is not place bound, but why have you opted to take that as one of the central core understandings as opposed to, for instance, community? If you could describe how you claim to the four elements of the core values, the questioner would be interested to know that. So yeah, could you speak a bit more about those four elements? Yes, of course. I mean, actually community is one of the things in the description underneath the place segment. So actually to describe that in full, it talks about growing strong place based communities, using digital to grow communities and community action, helping users utilize the events already happening in libraries and placing library at the heart of community. So we use places as a kind of proxy there to unpack different types of community. I mean, again, I think what that's getting at really is that, as Becker said, there's two layers to this. With all of the user research that we've done and all of the testing of prototypes. It's that two layer concept that really resonated with people. There's a national presence certainly to help draw people through, but there's also the local web presences as well. And so again, the key is about those user journeys between them. It's not one or the other. There's no national system that will completely replace what goes on in terms of local public library websites. People are still saying with its staff, users or non-users are still saying, you know, there's a place and a need for those because people want to know how to go and visit them. But actually there's something that can smooth that user journey. I would just add to that as well that whilst this is a digital project is very much tied to the physical space of the public library and the overall aim, if we know we've been successful, is whether more people are going into public libraries. So I think that partly kind of reflects that that we're not creating something that takes away at all from the physical engaged space but that kind of supports people to access it. Thank you, Becker. Thank you, Liz. I've got another question for Yasso. It's maybe about the response of your audiences to your kind of digital strategy and role. Do you have any research or knowledge about what your reputation is like with kind of the wider public for being a digital archive and maybe researchers who might want to work with more digital content? So that's still a learning journey for us. We've got some analytics and we're getting better at collecting stats from like web platforms. Yeah, so I can't give you a full sum answer but what we're working on is there are more than researchers that we want to reach. We're good at that, I think, where researchers were used to coming into our research centres and looking but I think our collection has value to all Australians and might be internationally as well. So how do we get our collection to be used in schools, in universities and then just every day Australians as well. And I think our 3D platform is one that we take a lot of pride in, that digital twin of one of our, it's an exhibition called Voices. So if you go to na.wdu and look at the Voices exhibition and you can either take a 2D tool, if you've got the Google Oculus glasses, put them on. You can actually walk the exhibition and it is about our constitution and there's some great things in there and the talking heads that we've introduced. I'm hoping that we'll reach the Gen Ys, the Xs and the Zeds and that's the full sum experience we want to take forward. Now obviously how do we get better at collecting feedback on that and then measuring ourselves is a continuing journey. So we've got like Google Analytics that gives us some type of measurement but to answer your question, Louise, we still, that's a learning journey on how do we improve feedback, more full sum feedback and then how do we adjust and how do we agilely change things as well. Thank you. Yeah, so sounds like you're on the right journey. And I have another question come in for Liz and Becca now. So are we out so DC DC has been talking a lot about how GLAM staff are active curators of content. And you mentioned public libraries being seen as a neutral space, which was really interesting. The questioner was wondering how or if you're planning to incorporate any aspects of these discussions about curatorship and innate bias into a single digital presence. Yes, thank you. It's a really important question. When we, when the British Library published its living knowledge vision document which runs through to 2023. One of the things we talked about there was that when we thought about libraries we thought of them as a combination of the collections, the spaces, whether they're physical or digital, and also the people within them, so users and also staff and other professionals. And so you're completely right that your collections, the choices that are made by those the choices that are made in terms of curation, obviously have some kind of element within them and will will include different kinds of biases that need to be countered. I think that was mainly referenced to the actual physical spaces that people feel comfortable and confident going into public libraries. They feel like spaces that are non commercial and non judgmental. Yes, absolutely. They need to be very careful, careful thinking about the curation of any content we're doing some recruitment at the moment for content strategists. Another key aspect of this, and again going back to those key principles from SILIP and the professional body is around data literacy, algorithmic literacy as well. And again, in terms of how that information is brought to bear and the decisions that are made about that. So yes, it's a, it's a really important question. Becca, did you have anything to add? Okay, thank you. I've got another question for Liz and Becca if that's okay. I'm interested in the kind of user studies that you did to find out information about people that might be using this single digital presence. I wondered if you found any kind of variations on current provision and responses to it and how people experience libraries on a geographical scale. Like for example, is it different in London compared to elsewhere or any other variations across on a national basis? Yes. Is there a short answer? Yes, it does vary. It varies in terms of what's available on your local authority website. It also varies in terms of different demographics of people that are using them. So yes, there's lots of variation. It's kind of the experience is always rich as library services themselves. I can put a link in the chat to some of the blogs that we've done about those earlier phases if people are interested in having a read about what we did. And just to follow up on that point about user response, I found your point interesting about the data privacy and that's obviously a very important thing to embed in the project. I wondered if you found that that came up at all in responses from the public as an issue or whether it was something that they kind of had lower awareness of. We know that the values of libraries and actually Becker showed the Maripole at the end. But it's one of the things that people really love and respect about libraries that they're a place where you can go and you can read anything, you can have access to anything. And so it's something that people often use different terminology, but it is something that came through. And also we know from the experience of talking to library staff and other professional staff is that again they want anything that's online. They want to hold, they wanted to hold those core values. They wanted, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, when you use search engines and things, people know now that there's an element of kind of what the algorithms are doing. And there's, you know, there's growing awareness of the need for algorithmic literacy about how how different search functions might raise something up and not just based on on relevance. And so, yeah, all of those things are coming through as part of it and both in terms of the sort of the data and algorithmic literacy, but also in terms of, yeah, privacy in terms of patron data, people really value that about public libraries. And so they want to know that anything happening in the digital space is going to uphold that, you know, those same values. Yeah, kind of an interesting thing that came out of lockdown. Actually, there were some reports within the sector about how libraries adapted to lockdown, not having the physical spaces and how they tried to engage with users digitally. And the problem that some of them came up with came up again, sorry, was that so that the websites on the council webpages on the gov.uk domain often it was difficult for them to keep those updated and have them as a kind of engaging thing beyond the very simple like opening times and that sort of stuff. And so they wanted to use social media as that because that would be an easy space where they could be in control but some of them expressed that some librarians expressed that they felt uneasy about pointing some of their traditional users who they might have spoke to over the phone during lockdown to say like, Oh, if you want to see our content then make a Facebook account if they didn't already have one because they felt uneasy about pointing people towards these spaces that were profit driven that were using their data that was advertising to them and so on. So hopefully this could be a kind of antidote to that because there will be a space where you can access that more experiential like sense of the library and all the things that offers in a space that isn't doing that and that is, yeah, isn't isn't after your data isn't trying to sell you things and so on. Thank you. Sounds great. Yes, I have another question for you. That's okay. In your presentation you talked a bit about how you've been working with agile methodologies. And I'm sure there'll be some people in the call you're not familiar about how they work in practice so I wonder if you could just say a little bit more about that and maybe some of the key benefits that you found working in an agile way. Yeah. Thanks, Louise. So, keep part to agile is actually a good end to end picture of what we're setting to achieve. So sometimes people think agile means no planning you just come in and think what you want to do today and do it. Actually, with agile, you need to have a strategy and a high level goals of that goal of what you want to achieve and then using combining that with an iterative delivery model allows you to then break that into you can call them faces you can call them milestones you can call them tranches. But I'm sure Becca and Lisa had it as well but you can use proof of concepts you can use pilots and testing phases so it's it's like a loop where you go from high level requirements detail but they're smaller smaller circles, a pilot and then going into production and then using that lessons learned to continuously iterate and develop. And being agile is about going through that cycle. Using stand ups. And we had to, you know, we had covered in the mix so we had to move from where people had physical can ban boards they were standing around in, you know, putting the, they had avatars for people where they would have the stickers up on things they had to do and they had to move to plan on M365. So we had equal tools that won cloud that people could use and still will have that concept of a stand up meeting every day and using the plan on M365 to allocate tasks and move agilely was a big shift where it wasn't a year, year of planning, planning implementation and delivery to see the outcome but it was about a three month cycle on, you know, seeing something realizing the benefits and then going into the next phase. It was good. And what we needed to make sure was there wasn't change fatigue because sometimes when people are really busy and they don't want to test because one of the risks that people saw was when they tested they thought that would be the end of what they would get. So, you know, taking them on the journey and saying that was the beginning of what they were getting and yet by signing off on, you know, requirements and test acceptance more agilely. They're actually on the journey and they're actually helping to shape what we do what they will realize in the end so lots of lessons was quite new for our agency. We have used it before. So I was quite confident on it's actually going to work but I had a lot of people around me who are quite skeptical at the beginning but it was it was a positive experience and where we've come to. That sounds good that you overcome the challenges and yeah that's the benefit of agile that you can find out what's going well and what's going wrong relatively quickly and adjust and change as you go rather than finding out closer to the end. I'll bring things to a close shortly but I'll end with one last question for Becca in this. I wanted to ask about kind of the position of local libraries who might be limited in funding and not have many staff as well. I wondered if you thought about how how those issues would affect ability to interact and put content on a single digital presence. So one of the things we're doing at the moment is building up a central team that can support. So we're recruiting at the moment actually for a content role for someone to develop content that can be shared, who can also help amplify content that's created locally. There's a grant fund that's coming with this phase of the work so there's just over a million pounds from Arts Council as part of this that's ring fenced for local libraries to help them. So we'll be opening up a grant scheme over the next few months designed very much with the sector to help pilot with a number of local authorities about what works for them. And then we can take that learning back into thinking about longer term sustainability, but it's a really good question. Yeah. And just on that as well. So as well as giving out money, we're going to be kind of trying to develop a community of practice around the grants and creating kind of resources and tool kits about best practice that even those who aren't in receipt for grant will be able to benefit from. So hopefully we'll be able to kind of reduce the load across the board by providing that kind of support pattern libraries and so on.