 Our dear listeners, it's my pleasure to welcome you to this important and timely webinar. Our webinar topic for today is Challenges and Opportunities of Community Land Dispensation in Kenya, which is co-hosted by the European Union, the Government of Kenya, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, and the Land Portal. My name is Hussein Wario. I work for FAO in the Natural Resource Management Unit. In the past, Kenya has made strides in the development and implementation of policies and laws to improve land management and governance in the country. One of the main milestones that has been made is the recognition of community land in the constitution and the development of the Community Land Act, which provides a legal basis for protection, recognition and registration of community lands and has provisions for management and administration of land by the communities themselves. However, implementation of this act has been slower than anticipated. This is despite the current heightened investment interest in community lands in Kenya, mainly for mega-development projects. Other uses of land for such projects will have been through compensatory processes. Land acquisition laws in Kenya are under review, basically to circumvent the compensation requirements proposed in the new Community Land Dispensation. Another challenge with the implementation of the Community Land Act is the political will to put in place the required systems for act implementation of the Community Land Act. Due to the scale of community land rights in Kenya, there's a need to find a path forward to overcome the challenges and realize the benefits of community land dispensation and the Community Land Act. Today, we will hear from three panelists who are going to discuss these issues. These are experts on community land rights in Kenya, and I would like to introduce our three panelists. Shadra Komondi is Executive Director at Reconcile. Samuel Ondari, Assistant Director for Land Adjudication at the National Land Commission. Unfortunately, he is here to join us, but I hope we will make it in time. And Husna Abdel-Lambarak, who manages the land governance program at the Food and Agriculture Organization in Kenya. In the next hour, these panelists will be asked about the status of communal land trainer in Kenya, including policy and practice, the intent of the Constitutional and Community Land Act, what is necessary to ensure its implementation and the viability of Community Land Act, as well as who is responsible for this implementation. After the first hour, we will open up the discussion and give room to our dear participants to ask questions. Please use the question feature to pose questions to the panelists. We will ensure that your questions are raised in turn during the open discussion. Welcome all. Now, I would like to start with our panelists, Mr. Shadra Komondi, to begin the conversation. Could you please describe the status of Community Land Trainer in Kenya, particularly on issues of policy and practice? Welcome Shadra. Thank you, Shane, and also let me say hi to all the participants. I want to start by saying that Community Land Trainer is the dominant land trainer in the country. This is because over two-thirds of the country falls within the assets where, majorly, they practice communal land tenure. If you look at places like Turkana, like Masabit, this is the dominant land tenure. But it is also the least understood by many people, including our leaders, policy makers and nation makers, as well as development practitioners. You realize that also the Community Land tenure is recognized in our constitution, it is recognized in our laws, and it has got the same status just like the private land tenure and the public land tenure. Even though sometimes people tend to belittle it, owing to the history that we are coming from. Community Land tenure is widely practiced across the country. If you look at its categorization in the constitution. And I think one of the things I would like to raise is that the definition of the community with respect to identification and the purpose of holding Community Land is not ambiguous, but rather it's very inclusive and very facilitative for this purpose. Also, allow me to say that the legal framework for the recognition, registration and protection of Community Land is complete. And as it is right now, it is ready for implementation. It doesn't really need amendments before we start implementing it. And as I conclude, I would also like to say that there are claims that many people doesn't want Community Land tenure, that people in the communal areas are going for private tenure. And I would say elites are deliberately just trading this discourse for selfish interest. For instance, I've listened to an elder from Baringo, clearly articulate what they want. He said, we want to register our land to secure it from encroachment by our expansionist neighbors, reduce conflicts with our neighbors, and to use land to access financial services. All these are provided for in the Community Land once it is registered. So by putting that does not mean that they are going for the private tenure. Thank you. Thank you for that detailed response. I would like to give the same opportunity to Husna Barak here. In your view, Husna, tell us also the status of Community Community Land China in Kenya and about policy and practices as well. Thank you very much Hussein and thank you all who've joined in. Kenya has made quite some impressive policy step, I mean, of course, positive steps towards the implementation of the communal tenure. And I think it's stated so well from the constitution, from the policy and now the act which now needs to be actualized and the regulations in that respect. You must agree that it's the dominant category of land in the country, looking at the cultural aspects, the traditional aspects where you normally say community comes first before public and private. The way of living for Kenyans, largely, or even, you know, I'll say human beings with history, it tells you everybody was living, I mean we're living communally, a child belongs to everybody in the community or in the village. So for the strikes Kenya has made and the practice has been in terms of policy, the strikes are quite beautiful, the practice also in terms of happening. The major, looking at the land users in the country, definitely pastoralism, put it on the notch that this is, this is how the community, the communal tenure has been so pastoralists have been using the land in that type of perception or in that type of traditional practice. And that is where we, the law came in to make sure it protects that type of land use. And of course looking, putting into consideration the aspects of you manage land for yourself, and that is community. You manage lunch with the community, and you also, I mean for them with them and by them. So that is a very important component of why the law is in place. There is no better police in terms of management of land than the people of that community. So that is what I could say about the strides made both in terms of the legal dispensation and also the practice. And I'm glad that this is put in place, it's more of stomping the practice around Kenya and the communal use to make it so legal in so many ways. Recognizing the fact that Kenya is led by the rule of law, and that has been has been put by the constitution when it was passed in 2010. Thank you very much. I'd like now to move to the next question. And again, this is to you, Shadrach. As you've said, it's important that communities make. And the strides that have been made in terms of its implementation. So Shadrach. Thank you, I lost you a bit, but I think I've gotten the last part of that question. Yes, please. Yes, let me repeat Shadrach. Yes, you've already said that it's important for communities to maintain their land in that communal ownership. And also added that it's important communities manage these lands by themselves. So I'd like to hear from you. What is the intent in the constitution and the Community Land Act? And what strides have been made so far to ensure the implementation? Thank you. The intent of the constitution as pertaining to land, not just community land, is contained in our constitution as one and as two. Article 60 Part 1 says the land in Kenya shall be hand and managed in a manner that is equitable, efficient, productive, sustainable. And it shall be based on the principles of equitable access, security of land rights, sustainable and productive management of land and the resources, transparent and cost effective administration of land, sound conservation and protection of ecological sensitive areas, elimination of gender discrimination in law, customs and practices related to land and property. And finally the encouragement of communities to settle disputes through recognized local community initiatives consistent with the constitution. So you see that one is now trying to broaden and make the land governance very effective. And the principles are now reflected in the Community Land Act. So I would say that the intent of the Community Land Act was to bring the principles of the land governance as outlined under Article 60 of the constitution to bear, but also to provide for a legal framework for the management and administration of community land with respect to recognition, registration and protection, but also to spell out the roles of different institutions that are involved. So the constitution provided a framework and the act is now operationalizing the framework based on the principles. And going with that, there's traits that needs to be taken to ensure implementation. For me, number one is to ensure compliance with the intent of the constitution as spelled out in the principles of land policy by all actors. Number two, there is need for the development of a detailed implementation strategy. Based on the Community Land Act, Community Land Regulations and the Repeat Land Adjudication Act, once we get clarity on the comprehensive implementation framework, what are we starting with and how are we running with it? Implementation will be quite easy because there will be guidance, clear timelines and proper costing. Number three, we need to develop a detailed Community Land Education and Awareness curriculum, which brings all the key stakeholders together and gives each and every stakeholder a portion to run with. I also like to raise that the appointment and the deployment of respective officers that are required to lead the process of implementation. And here now the national government through the Cabinet Secretary of the Ministry of Lands and Physical Planning needs to now help us by ensuring that the officers that are required, they will actually get them and it is put in place. Also another area which I think is key, Andre, is also leaning on the ministry. If we can have an establishment of multi-agency teams that would lead in the implementation of this law by zoning the country and having different teams deal with different parts of the country. And finally, there is need for a structured framework for mobilization and allocation of adequate resources for the implementation of this law, both at the national level and at the county level. Thank you. Thank you, Shadrach, for that excellent response. I would like to give Husna the chance to add or to emphasize on the same question in terms of the intent of the Constitution on the Community Land Act and specifically on the strides that have been made this far in its implementation. Husna, welcome. Thank you very much and Shadrach has meditated and even recited from the law itself on why the law and why the structure. I would say that the main intent is that the recognition, the protection and finally the registration of community lands and we all know why registration. But when you talk of recognition is to recognize that we have been living, we have been using and we have been managing the various lands communally. And there also doesn't only look into the security, I mean the land tenure aspect but also in terms of the diversity Kenya has been having from the bantus from the Nile lots and from the Kushites and so many other people who are living within Kenya or residing Kenya or they're using land communally in Kenya. The second component which is very, very important is the protection part and I alluded to say that the aspects for buy and with community is very, very important. And that is where we are giving, I mean the law is giving the rights and it's giving the mandates to the people to the community to be able to manage their resources. And this also regards to how you're going to protect it, how you're going to govern the various resources on land and be able to manage them sustainably. And the last component which is now adhering to the law so somebody can have full, I can say 100% security of tenure is the aspects of registration. The law itself has started, I was also given gone ahead and say who will be the mandated institution to do what and what and what and who will, you know, we all know that governments, the government structures in the country are basically the main, the various ministries, the various departments are the main duty bearers who are making sure that every other law is implemented and is implemented to the latter with the people. And that is where the most important component of securing community lands is through registration and this law brings that to the desk. And already we've said earlier on and we'll keep on saying the law is in place, the regulation is in place, the law has stipulated who's going to do what and what should be done before the registrations takes place. That is what is supposed to be happening currently. And Shadrach has mentioned the aspects of people to be aware, we all understand that awareness and education should be like an ongoing activity. But in this regard, we need to tell everybody what the law says and the aspects of making sure what the law says against the tradition against them is very important. The responsible role goes to the Ministry of Lands to make sure a whole program is implemented or is done, is developed and conducted on awareness, is done. But I'm really glad that even currently we have seen a lot of SIVU Society organization, including development partners such as FAO has been working across this field of community land and are able to keep communities or working directly with communities to keep them aware of the law and even help them to start progressing in terms of towards the registration as what the law wants it. So that is very important and I must agree that the multi-stakeholder approach is the best so as every other expertise is brought on board and every other institution can bring out their strength in terms of reaching out to the last person on the ground to be able to understand why community land should be registered and how it should be registered and how it should be managed in that progress. So those has to be put in place. I'm already seeing a lot of counties and communities putting up their inventory in terms of these are the areas we want to register as community land. So the approach of ways being used by different stakeholders putting up their trying to make sure that they are part of the first people to be registered is already seen. People have already sent in their inventory to the minister to the CS, but I must agree that there should be a program well crafted, well developed and also everybody is aware of in a systematic way on how this community land act will be implemented in the country. And we're all looking we're looking forward to it because as I said earlier it's not about recognizing the land but also recognizing that particular community in terms of ethnicity in terms of culture in terms of tradition in terms of common interest but also in terms of geographical setup or geographical area. And this is very, very important so as the person you never think of is happy or will be happy to know that I'm also recognized within the law to make sure to be part of such and such a community. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for that response. Now, you're all in concurrence that this law is necessary and it's already out there. The government is urgent, but there are questions people are posing out there. People are asking, is the community land act in Kenya really viable given the different dynamics in this country, different context that this law has to be applied to. Is it viable? What is your take on this? Thank you. Let me start by just adding one aspect in terms of the strides. There are some communities which are a bit homogeneous and going by the definition of the community for the purposes of holding community land. That is very clear, like the forest where last indigenous people. So for them, what could be happening at a time like this could be helping them to start documenting their land and natural resource management practices that they would want to carry on with so that by the time they're doing their constitution, they are fitting in that kind of a process. But now back to the question, what is the viability of the community land act? I would say a very big yes that the community land act is very viable. Why am I saying this? First, the design of this law and its content. It is very sound. Actually, the way this law was developed, it was developed from bottom up. A lot of processes took place. For the first time I saw the ministry try to develop a concept before going ahead to appoint a task force and then the subsequent processes. So in its development, it was very participatory. And I think it captured quite key issues that the communities wanted. For instance, one of the key things that rained from Turukana to Lakeipia to Kajiado and Narok. The community said, we want a law that will enable us to be the direct managers of our lands. What did they want? They wanted to have a say on the governance of the land. And what did the law do? The law has provided for a community assembly that is the final authority in terms of all decisions regarding the community land. So you can see they are empowered. So the law is not the problem. The communities themselves, sometimes we say that you know the definition of the community in the law is not clear. And I think we confuse the definition of a community for the academic purposes or identity purposes with the definition of the community for the purposes of holding and owning the land. I think that definition ought to be context specific. And that is what the law did, drawing from the constitution. It now contextualized. And if you look at the constitution, the category of lands that fall, any land which is held by group representatives, that's a very wide definition of the community. And this law foresaw that and provided for a framework of that, looking at it from the community of interest, but also from the communities in terms of ethnicity, geographical and things like that. The community land law, therefore, if implemented according to the way it has been presented, will actually usher the country into a very productive phase. The challenge we are having while people are asking about viability is we are trying to put demands on the communities before we have actually helped them to internalize what is required. Also, we are approaching this law with the mentality of the titling, what title does in the private sector. The individualized titles is based on exclusion. The title of my land, it is exclusively mine. But this is different if you read the law, the law provides for inclusivity and the registration of this land is basically for the purposes of security and for the purposes of enhancing order with regard to that land. It is not to exclude others. So it is those things that are bringing fear. Is it really possible? If you look at what you can do with the private land, once you've registered community land, you can do all those things. So the law is viable. And I think the only challenge we have is the balancing of the different interests. Some people still thinking that it is not feasible to have collective tenure in the country. But because it has been there over all through this period, I think it is high time we accept and join hands and make this a reality. Thank you. Thank you, Shadrach. I will pose the same question to Husna. Husna, in your opinion, or do you have a contrary opinion to what Shadrach has said in terms of viability of the community land implementation in Kenya? Thank you so much. I agree with what Shadrach has discussed. We've even gone further to do an assessment in some of the areas in Kenya, how the law will be viable, or is the law viable? And here we did an assessment to directly speaking to communities, directly speaking to the duty bearers, both at the county level and national level. We've also gone ahead and talked to the various players, especially around civil society organization who have been working in the field of land rights to really have their field and some of the academia and some of the legal practitioners in the country to have their field if this law is going to be viable. In general, the report is almost out, which will have it in the FAW website very soon. In general, yes, it's a very viable law. It's a very viable initiative in a way that it comes into kind of stamp the way of living for the people of Kenya. And also brings in the fear, the challenges being faced around tenure in this country. So you're bringing in a lot of security to the communities and tell them you can own it in a way that you have full charge on it. Of course with different discussions on technical management in these areas. So you are the owner of your land, and you get the services and the expertise from government and other stakeholders to be able to manage it well. And that's very, very important. One thing which we need to really see through and I really urge the implementation of this law should really be customized to the various challenges to the various. Issues coming out from these communities. And this is where you cannot use the same way you you're dealing with one county, let's say Marsabit County, the same way you'll deal with it in, in, in internal river county. Why I say that because the issues are different and the land use might be different and the aspects of how people perceive traditionally communal spaces is different. And that is one of the thing coming out from that assessment is that police treat us with a lot of not so much different, but with that I with that customization I to see this is how we are going to. We want to to own up our property in some instances you'll find communities wanting to only secure their grazing areas, not necessarily looking into the, into their residents residential areas in some communities people want just to secure and manage their forest resources. And, you know, such type of, of things, and also recognizing the fact that there are different conflicts in those different I mean in those areas in the, in the, in the, in those in the count in the country. I could take off the, the challenges of urban growth. It might not be the same with Kajiade or Narok, it might not be the same with Turkana and Westpacore. So that's why I'm really at this, this community, this law is very viable. The only, the only thing is should be looked at it as it comes in and look at the, at the forces. Of course, we are fighting against. I don't want to call it all regime, but the practice has been a dedication of land for private shoes, and we've even gone further to, to, to segment land in a very small and productive. And that's the ecarage, which probably only a house can can be managed, what an echo house can be, can be put up there, but, but for the sake of production for the sake of agriculture product productivity, and which is where No Kenya is, I mean, source of livelihood, then we might want to think how we can really run away from that and promote the aspects of communal tenure and community land law gives that solution to that. So as we produce well in a way that we can feed our nation. But as I say, even if we take the entire Kenya and divide it as per population, there's some people going to miss land. So this communal community land brings in where a person, a woman, a man or a community can be able to own land in their lifetime and be able to decide on what to be done on that land and also be part of the management of that land. So for viability, the law is very viable. It was well thought of. It was well scripted on in terms of participation here and there. Of course, there's challenges in terms of actualizing it administratively. Probably it will be. Okay, currently, actually, we're talking of it was not budgeted for by the government to be able to for it to be to be viable or to to be implemented. But these are the discussions on going currently to be able to budget for it to plan for it and make sure it's executed. I don't I don't expect that for the for the next 50 years will be will be delimiting or will be adjudicating community land. No, I don't expect that. So it should be taken in as quickly as possible, put it as a program, let it be done for whoever is interested. Every other place in Kenya is known who is there, who what are the interests, what is the land use so that it can be done immediately in a way that it's timed and that it be done there for whatever comes in after that. Then there are things which can be can be dual tree. But I am really saying it's very viable. The aspects now is to conceptualize it at a different and customize it at the different levels at the different needs at the different interest of of the community. Of course, they are they are challenges because we are moving from a different dispensation. I don't say that community land has been thought of now after the I mean the the Constitution of Kenya, which was passed in 2010. No, there has been that leeway sometimes back, but the management of it became needy and that's why they call they call for for for the new dispensation where it's an all inclusive process and everybody has space to make decision has space to discuss and has space to manage. Previously, the management was left for the few individuals who are elected as the committees. If you look at the group representative act, the law I mean the repealed law was had a good intent, but the practice was a little bit different. But for this law, it calls for even an assembly, which in so many ways, 100% of the people in that community and for any decisions to be passed, it has to be passed by two-third majority in the soul. The viability is there, the interest is there. So we only think administratively, let's make it work. So we are able to to have people have security of tenure, I think. Thank you very much, Husna. Now both of you have again conquered and said the community land act is viable. And further, even in the previous question, you have already mentioned what needs to be done. For example, Shadrach has stipulated issues of strategy to implement community land act, education and awareness curriculum, having the required officers on the ground, Husna also emphasized aspect of multi-agency team to work on this. But then the basic question is whose responsibility is it to implement the community land act? Whose responsibility is it Shadrach even may ask you first to put these requirements in place and implement this act. Shadrach, to you. Thank you. Allow me to go to the constitution and say that the implementation of this act is a responsibility for each and every citizen of this country. The constitution enjoins us to be active participants. So all of us, we need to be actively involved. But then there is one that would now take a clear leadership role so that we don't act confused and uncoordinated. And this is now the national government led by the ministry of land and physical planning. And the cabinet secretary should be taking a key leading role. So the principle responsibility here is that they should try and lead and coordinate other stakeholders in a timely, effective and efficient way to deliver on this law. If that one is done, then it would be easy to get county governments to play their roles effectively and without conflicts. It would be easy for communities who again the way the law is framed. Once the ministers put the framework in place, for instance, we have the chief land registrar who goes ahead to appoint the community land registrars. Then communities, once they're empowered, they will kick off that process by writing and notifying that now we are ready. We want to register our land. And this is how we have organized ourselves for that purpose. And the civil societies, or I can call it the non-state actors, are also involved in this process. The development partners who have been working together with the government, with the civil societies, also need to join in in this process. Allow me just to emphasize why for me I think the government really needs to put in some more efforts and really leave this process. A lot of Vision 2030 flagship projects are in the assets. And the dominant tenure in the assets is communal land tenure. The government needs to acquire the land. There are private investors who are interested in going into this land. So by government taking a leading role and actually seeing that there is faster implementation of this law, we are going to achieve the security of tenure for the communities. Our government is going to enhance the rule of law and they are going to be in good governance even in the processes of land acquisition because the whole framework now, the legal framework for land acquisition and allocation for various uses shall now be complete. As it is right now, it is prone to bring conflict. It is prone to trigger some misunderstanding with the county government, with other stakeholders. And the government does not want conflict particularly if we are to achieve the big four agenda. So in as much as a listener said that it seems there was no budgetary allocation for this, but I know that one of the key things the government had given itself a target for titles in the country. For me the easiest one to achieve would be to target the community lands and the registration. It will fast track the attainment of the target under this comprehensive land registration. So I just hope that as we continue with this discourse, the government will come in and ensure that the opportunities that are being granted in the assets, they are not opened up for abuse due to lack of registration leading to a lot of conflicts. Thank you very much Shadrach. Our listeners on the Samuel Ondari has not yet joined us unfortunately, but we expect if he joins us we will be able to tip in especially on aspects that touches on the role of government that has some which has already been raised by Shadrach here. But our listeners once more as we proceed towards the end, we are already getting questions posted. It's an opportunity also to post the questions. We will go through one question at a time, but before that I would like to give Husna an opportunity to elaborate a little bit on who is responsible for implementation of Community Land Act. Husna. Thank you very much. I always say whatever the is all right, there is a responsibility and I must say okay the main person responsible is the duty bearer and in this regard is the government of Kenya looking at the various governance structures. So they take the main role of making sure things happen, laws passed and should be implemented so they spearhead those and I must agree that the Ministry of Lands with what Shadrach said the Ministry of Lands has to spearhead this process. But of course I started by saying whatever there is a right there is a responsibility. It's a responsibility of every Kenya and I think the first article in the constitution of Kenya 2010 talks of the sovereign power lies with the people of Kenya and that is where we need to really conceptualize but also break it through and say who is responsible for what. As the law the Community Land Act calls for a claim on Community Land and the minister in charge of lands will not put the claim himself or herself in this regard is the responsibility of the communities who wants to put a claim to put that claim. So that responsibility lies with the community. I'm also looking into the various organization and players within the sector from the government as they takes their executive role of the minister follows by the technical role played by the various ministry especially when it comes to the second component of why we put up this dispensation around the recognition protection and registration. The recognition part can really be taken in by the community. The protection part is now how you manage your land. We're bringing out the aspects of the traditional beliefs the traditional or the customary way of doing things to the table but also we look at the best practices around the world and I must agree that Kenya has departments has both research both technical to bring out the aspects of how to manage those resources in the community land. So that is the other the other bit of the stakeholders I must say they are quite responsible to make sure that land is Community Land is managed well and sustainably. The other component is on the aspects of what the civil society do well in this country first and foremost the aspects of lobbying and advocacy. They played a big role in terms of advocating for the constitution for the police in this country for the community land act and various other things and the aspect of making sure there is inclusion or participation of everybody into that discussion and the other part which doesn't really come out every other time but piloting of that this type of approaches and the approach what the Community Land Act is bringing out is an approach where there is inclusivity, there is decision making, there is government, there is management which civil society do well and those are some of the players we need to them to to really take the steering wheel and make sure it's is done to the latter. We don't only advocate for the law but make sure that the implementation is done to to its finality if needed. So for development partners they like I mean I must say what the file doing through EU funding on the lands governance program is more of to bring that that system put it in practice and showcase this can work in this manner as much as and they bring the technical expertise together with what the government has and be able to to bring forward so I must I must confess and say this is there is no one person or one entity or one institution will be able to to to to to to be the main person. Everybody has to play a role in one way or the other and the aspects about the registration or Community Land registration is not just to register and that's it. It's about livelihood enhancement, it's about you know changing lifestyle bringing in new new new new processes and in terms of production as I said alone and agriculture production so you can change lives you can have coordinated approaches you can have systems in place whoever wants to come in and and and do any transaction with that community are able to know this is an organized community which is with these own governance structures and the most most part of it is the aspect of making sure there is protection of that land to the latter that land was was there is there and will be there for our future generation and that's very important so I must say that everybody has to take roles and have to make sure they're done to the latter. We cannot just sit and wait for the CS to start to start registration of of of of Community Land when we've the communities themselves are not even I mean they're not even interested in securing their land in that in that regard probably when they want to go private. The other discussion is I mean the other point we cannot we cannot the minister being mandated cannot wait for for the county government to you know start speaking on behalf of the of the of the community so that everybody has to make that move in one way or the other the only thing now we want is to have coordination and I think a multi-stakeholder approach to this is very is very very important to discussion so every wherever there is a right there is a responsibility and I'm sure it's been done before in other countries let's say but here is something which we can really pick and see how we can work it out. One thing is has been in discussion around around who is responsible. We cannot say that the moment you give registration to to a community they can do what they want of course there should be controls in every other opportunity I mean every other opportunity or a stake in the in the management we cannot say that community got their title so nobody those will be untouchable no no no it affects the neighbors it affects the country in general it can affect resources so these are some of the things controls needs to be put and who brings out those controls at the various technical departments within a government or within development partners or within other other players who bring in the do's and the don's in a situation and that one aspect which is very important is the aspect of monitoring the management of land the moment the CS has given a title to community a it doesn't mean that they've shut they've put up a wall nobody will see what happens inside there these are some of the things which needs to to be looked into and these are the at the areas where we read we need as many as as many stakeholders as possible to be able to work with the communities and make sure that their land is managed and used and governed in a sustainable way thank you very much thank you very much to you both Shadrach and Husna this far we have covered broad issues around status of communal land changer and the strikes that have been made so far in terms of implementations of the intent that we have in in the community land act and the constitution and our panelists have given what needs to be done by various actors to be able to realize the implementation of this act and both have agreed that that the act is viable and it needs to be implemented now I don't know whether Ondari has joined us I can see you're talking but it's great to have you here yes yes yeah we have gone through the discussions but I think it will be proper to give you an opportunity to say something around the topics that we've had maybe to start with a very brief link we would like you to give us your opinion at the status of community land in a new Kenya to also proceed and give us again your view on the intent of the constitution and the community land act in terms of implementation of the communal land changer in Kenya very briefly thank you very briefly let me say this that community land act is viable at the moment what has been the problem is that maybe because of government programs that they were to deliver so many titles at ago then there was this delay in trying to ensure that this act is implemented otherwise from where I sit I've gone across the country trying to gauge the views and opinions of the people and even making several observations and I realized that there are those counties especially in the northern part of Kenya five of them Mandela, Turkana, Wajia, Garisa and even Isiolo which are very viable for implementation of this community land act because in these counties actually no land adjudication has ever been undertaken in those counties as you realize concentration of land registration followed the railway line and of course in the high potential areas based on what the the synatone plan had advised in 1954 so the aspect of community land came into being following the Lawrence recommendations that group branches are viable in Kenya especially in the asshole areas and therefore community land takes that model of former group branches the only difference here is in the management that now when it comes to management we now involve the entire community in making decisions and like where we had the group branches where we had the 10 officials who are actually domiciled in making the recommendations as far as the constitution is concerned you realize that the constitution has actually upgraded communal tenor the same status as a freehold at least hold such that those people who have a communal title have the same status even in terms of value and even in terms of prestige and in terms of many other things that they hold to that title is just the same as somebody as a private tenor so community land registration is viable and you realize from what I was getting from Musuna that it is a multi-stakeholder approach that can make this thing a success because when this land when the community land act was being enacted it looked like elitist in nature but now that one inch have not properly been informed of the contents we need to go around with all the stakeholders bringing breaking down the contents of the community land to the one inch so that they can understand the implication of this they can understand the benefits they are in because it has clearly outlined even the benefits in terms of investments into their land in terms of even using this title the notion that community land will ward off other other people is not true because it depends on how you are able to use that land and you can apply to the community and the community can even now exercise and be able to evaluate your viability and allocate to land that you can use for your own benefit so families did not actually worry but what I want to say is that we need to really go down to the one inch educate them on the contents of this community land educate them on how you can invest into land that is communal educate them on the differences between the old group branch model setup and the current community land model setup which I think to me it gives an upper hand to the community to manage their land effectively efficiently and even in terms of use because it has gone further to to to to outline how you can use land use planning to plan and zone out this land for better use and for better distribution so what I would say what I was saying is that it is viable it is something that we need to move in very fast the the PS although although the duty bearer is the minister for lands but others have a responsibility and that duty to probe that one inch what this community land that implemented just now not not later so I would say it is viable and from what I've gathered from other panelists we I share their sentiments that we need to move very fast and accurately bring this act into operation thank you Hussain do you hear me thank you yes yes loud and clear thank you very much on that and in just one minute you have concurred with the rest of the panelists that yes this act is viable and yes that the primary responsibility lies with them the ministry particularly with the CS but others also have to take some specific roles but from the stakeholders some worrying friend is when other laws come up that has some contrary provisions to what is intended in the community land act for example the land value index bill that is coming out so what is your comment on this and maybe also a little bit elaborate on despite the challenges and other focus in terms of land titling what strides have the government has the government made this far in terms of the land value index in fact it's going to enhance the viability of this community land because I said that because we have upgraded customary land 10 what the same status as that of freehold and leasehold title when the land value index comes into place then it is going now to leverage how we can now bargain especially on the issue of investments so that we get the same value from the community land just like somebody who has a private title holder has the same value in terms of the strikes made by the government so far you realize that 190 have been trying now to come up with identifying the various community lands that they hold in their respective areas so that we can now form a register of community land but what is critical at the moment is trying to educate 190 on how they can form those communities because there is still a lot of debate on the definition of who a community is you realize you have so much integrated in Kenya now and the constitution provides that you can learn land anywhere that you wish so in that aspect they need to really educate to a 90 that this act is not meant to add of others it's not meant to differentiate others but it's meant to bring harmony so that if you identify yourself on the basis of geographical extent or on the basis of ethnicity then others are also inclusive so I tend to support the idea that we need to go down and break this down to the people so that people can really understand who a community is how they can you realize in Masai land for instance we may not have had boundaries for and when we say now we should identify our own boundaries it means we might bring in some tug of war here and there but then if we really go traditionally and go back to the roots like what is happening maybe in Marsabit where communities are identifying their old boundaries and reaching a mutual agreement then there won't be a problem the strides made so far now is apart from we realize the kinds of governance had tried to approach this from a court set up so that the proper definitions are given but I'm sure that with the current advice that we have given on comprehensive program for registration of title in land those communities in the asshole areas can clearly move very fast in trying to register land as a community land so the strides is that government should set aside enough funds and now we are not so much in the know how much funds have been set aside to advance the issue of civic education because it is the first step in trying to realize this implementation of the community land act without civic education there will be a lot of confusion and of course the other strides is that once we have a chief land registrar who is going to to appoint the community land registrars then we are good to go because that is what is now pending because we cannot start because the chief land the community land registrar is the one we should set in motion all these other processes that relate to registration of community land thank you Hosea thank you very much Ondari and I appreciate your response and thanks for coming in so a bit late we understood your predicament and we are well in time for the question time for our to have been posed by our participants and I will go through the questions and some are basically comments which I will read through and I will pose the questions to our respective panelists I think the first question by Nyesimi Nyesimi I will pose it to Hosea here community land in Kenya is owned and inherited by men I think generally land in Kenya including community land and the question is what are the rights of women in such a situation in brief Hosea thank you that's a good question actually the law has provided for that apart from having the gender rule in the Kenyan constitution in terms of two-third I mean they should not be too majority I mean more than two-third of the same gender so that is the constitution but the but the law has also stipulated the governance structure of the of the of the community land management committee meaning that it has already the gender rule applies but also it has said around them the maximum of 15 people in the community land management committee this is how the break will be so definitely even during the during the registration of it of the community those things have to be looked into in terms of is it adhering to the call the the gender rule the I mean is it is the is the governance structure constitutional that is one important thing but I must I must tell you the the call to have more women participate in the in the in the aspects of management and governance of of the land has not been there since but with time now things have started changing looking into the main users and statistics have shown it and the practice have shown it women can access and use land well and actually the numbers are quite high but when it comes to ownership that brings out another another another discussion but in the community land dispensation the law calls for the community assembly and the community assembly talked of each and every other adult within that community so meaning that if you're a mister definitely your name will be there but your wife's name will also be there and if you're a missus in terms of the wife your name will be there and your husband name will be there as an entity as a person not as mister and missus so there's no more representation at those at those level so if there are 10 hundred women married or 10 men married it should be now the 200 people of that community and I think that is well stipulated in the so the identification then the recognition I mean sorry the recognition or each and every adult member of the family of the community is there that already tells you that women has to be part of the management of of of the community land act and I think that's already a strides of course the aspects of the the the practice in terms of culture uh will be there but in terms of how people have been practicing you know women don't have a say in the in the management of land will need to with time change because we've already seen the positive women can bring on board in terms of management and use of of of land thank you very much thank you Hosna our second question is from woodsworth lerby and it's supposed to Shadrach here and he asks how different will your recommendation to have multi-agency teams responsible for the implementation of the community land act be from the current structure that is provided goes for uh rolls of county the national land commission and the community land management um committee Shadrach yes thank you yes thank you the multi would be different from the current one because right now what has been filled out are just roles and responsibilities for each institution the multi-agency that I am proposing should actually be one channel whereby you get the representatives from the county government representative from communities representative from the ministry so that they are working towards the delivery for instance right now the county governments are in the process of doing the inventories if would have gone the multi-agency approach that would have been working together on this so that there is energy and free flow of information right from the communities to the county to the national and again vice versa that would ensure that the institutional conflicts is managed and reduced that would also ensure that the perceptions and distortion of information at different levels are effectively reduced and that would also ensure that for adventure there are certain blockages within an institution it is a way to overcome it and that would lead to the first tracking of the implementation where that kind of approach has been put in place the registration process has been enhanced that's why I thought it would slightly tilt the current implementation framework for now civil society are doing what they are doing county government is doing what they are doing and we are telling ministry to do what they were also doing but can we find a way through which we work together through agency kind of an approach thank you thank you very much I think that is quite clear the next question from Lance Robinson and I want Pondrari to attempt to respond to this it's both a comment and a question and he says I agree with the comment about the definition of community in the act the flexibility of the definition is in fact a strength of the act one of my concerns however is with the mode of governance implied by the act for instance sections 15-2 of the act states the quorum for decision-making by the communal community shall not be less than two-thirds of the community assembly in the asshole area especially the driest most variable areas the most appropriate scale for management and governance may be over territories that are very large perhaps hundreds of thousands of hectares including dozens of settlements and mobile encampments and many community members who are quite mobile and not always resident within the territory to expect an annual general meeting at which two-thirds of an adult community members attend is not very compatible and such a scale of management is at odds with how pastoralist traditionally managed land that provision to my eyes implies that communities are very small and that they're in permanent settlements what is your comment on this thank you Hossein I want to I think the the questioner for that question I agree with him that we might have issues with quorum as per decision making but we should also realize that at the onset when communities now form one of the things is that apart from what has been outlined in the act they will come up with their own rules of governance which will also be now be ascended to by the community assembly as as such now it is these rules of governance that every community will form on its own that will steer the way they are going to to manage to manage their affairs of of their land so if they are so much nomadic in nature they should come up with a clause a clause that takes care of their movements so that they can structure this this issue of quorum of two that's to agree on once they have attained a certain quorum then they can make decisions for your information these things are not being pushed to the throats of this community we are giving the communities a chance to to to model their own governance according to their own culture according to what exists in that in that particular community so to me I tend to think that whereas we have the law that it outlines the the community assembly as apex of it and the 10 the 15 members as as those they have bestowed responsibility to to to execute the management they have to come up with their own rules which suits the situation in which they are in and it is those rules that now will will galvanize them together in making in in making decisions so I think it is more democratic and it is more accommodative in the sense that once the community has defined who they are and and they have identified the pattern things that disturb them within the community then it is them now to outline clearly and come up with their own constitution which is modeled to the existing situation within that community that they will use now to govern them so whether they are small or big whether we have the vast land as it is in some areas the the constitution that they'll come up with is what now will be their model it is going to be different from one community to another it will not be uniform across board but this the uniqueness of the community will also now also determine the uniqueness of the constitution that they will come up with which is going to go alongside to help them in governing their own affairs and in governing their own land. Thank you Hussain. Thank you Bondari. Our fourth question is from Lansing France I hope I pronounced that correctly and this is to Husna. How do we deal with the fact that much of land in Kenya has already been titled as individual property and if I may refresh I think there are concerns that we're not if we talk about community land in Kenya comprising 67 percent of the land and there's a lot of speculations out there that or we are not even sure that that land is there so how do we deal with that in short. That has been a question and I must say that that is a question in the back of every other practitioner. Do we really have community land but looking at what is and I don't want to say it in a negative way but I must say one of the question I'll ask as a practitioner can we have a map and say what area is what and what is adjudicated what is registered what where is not but looking at what we are working on currently I cannot say 67 percent or 63 percent or 62 percent but majority of the former trust lands have not been registered I see it so that is where we are we are bringing the discussion discussion from. Secondly that is now which is not registered but don't forget the the the call by the law is not only to unregistered land there's the aspect of looking at defining claim claim can be in two ways for the for the land which is not yet registered and doesn't have currently any any interest by anybody but their lands which have been occupied by other people but the other community will want to put a claim I hope we will not have a lot of them in this country but there is an avenue to to claim in that in that manner but due process of the law has to be to be to be to be done so that is that is where it is it is currently but looking at the practice and what I'm working on currently using the the I mean the program in FAO Kenya there are there's so many areas we are working within eight counties and some of these areas have not been registered so land is there and the vastness of it which is not registered is within the within the communal areas and a lot of it is in the asal area which is arid and semi land but I remember also odari mentioned something to do the early on adjudication or the the into the the practice what the ministry has really picked up from let's I guess call it from pre independence actually before before independence and after independence were the interest were like let's say the railway line was going on the high potential area so a lot of adjudication a lot of titling took place within the high potential areas where production of tea coffee and crops have been and let let out the I mean left out the the asal areas the arid and semi arid areas so huge huge chunks of of land have not been registered in those areas but looking at what is happening and the the the aspects of the development of urban areas is mushroom especially I'm seeing a lot of the county governments are setting up urban centered in urban center in in various areas even sub county sub county level already that one will say it's a land it's a land use which is now taken away from from the the community land discussion the discussion around natural resources where they're bestowed and in accordance to to to the law that will be public land of course there's allowance of conversion there's allowance of allowing them the communities to manage those type of resources the wildlife the forest the water bodies and such so those ones also if you minus them from that from the land we say it can have 100 management by the communities and no such type of things so it will be very important and I say that's the call for inventory that the counties bring out the areas which needs to be adjudicated all the communities bring out the areas which needs to be adjudicated or to be delimited as community land using the community land act so that is that is that is very key and where they are interested even now as we talk of large-scale projects where an example will be the lab set I'm sure which is some the majority of land which is going to be acquired for that type of a project to take to take place are within those those community lands we we have earmarks for for for registration or for for delimitation so these are some of the discussion which are ongoing but the lead to you can be because the lot didn't say really how much little can you can you can you claim in terms of community and that's why during my earlier discussion I talked of you can even put up a common resource such as a grazing area a salt lake area a water pan to be to be adjudicated as community land thank you very much thank you Husna our next question is from Justin Luasi and I want to pose it to Shadrak here uh Justin says the low talks of equitable access does this place an equal position of land access between members of local communities and the urbanites whom um Justin calls the big men you know Shadrak Shadrak are you there hello hello there Shadrak um since we I posed the question from Justin Luasi to you yes well Justin asked the lot talks of equitable access but then he asked how does it cut and how for people with different equal different positions for example between between members of local communities and those in from urban areas whom he says are big men how does that um how is the equality equitable access provided thank you I think the equitable access first is provided because everyone in the community assembly has got one vote so everybody will have who will say when it comes to decision making then the second thing when they are doing the planning there will be there is opportunity in terms of giving the families that have been using a particular area an opportunity to continue using it and mapping new areas for investment and allocating it according to the needs that are prevailing as for that particular time so the position of somebody as long as you are a member of the community your position that you come from Nairobi or you are a director in a certain company or in government and now when you come you need to have a say that one has been taken care of the community have its own structure so everybody will have equal say the request to the community to get probably an extra land for a particular use has to go through the community land management committee who will deliberate over the same and will present the same to the community assembly for a decision if the decision comes out as negative that would be it if the community have shared in addition and they think they can give you an extra amount of land for that particular project or use you will also get it so that equity is that every member of the community has got opportunity the same opportunity to access the land for use and for whatever they want without fearing that one family will dominate the other i think that's a critical aspect that has been inbuilt through that participatory decision making i know there were some discussions that how will the decisions be made equitable and just for instance if one man one vote one woman one vote a man with 10 women the issue of polygamy and the voting and it was discussed and i think the emerging consensus then was that we cannot assume that the families or the women will just simply vote because it is their man they also have got their own interest or a man will not just follow it because the wife has submitted it so they will look at what is economically viable and what is for the common good for everyone and so it was felt that one man one vote one woman one vote would be the best principle to apply to ensure that there is equitable access to this resource by everyone yeah thank you thank you shabrak um on the re i think the next question i'm trusting question from uh lees alden lees asks community and public lands often overlap given absence of boundaries at this point at least in the minds of community owners and official term which lands should be identified first community land or public lands for purpose of registration and security on the re thank you for saying uh first of all even before i i at on the re way i think we lost you i think we lost you at the beginning if you may repeat that response please i was saying that i wanted to go back to the question posed to us now where do we really have community land in kenya actually i would say we actually have community land first of all the 11 percent i've done a report on compressive program for registration of title in in land throughout this country uh we were the author of that report as national land commission which we identified 11 percent of the count of the 47 counties are actually community land then we have gone further to outline that uh we may be difficult to get community land in yansa central and western former provinces but we shall have community land in parts of rift valley and coast like tana river and of course you you'll also realize that some communities have are again petitioning through historical land injustices that uh what do they have as a private land they want to convert to community land and then we shall have in some counties where we have shrines community forests and we can as usina put it through conversion create community land so we have community land in the in the in this in this country now to go back to to the question of overlap which would be done first you realize both will be done concurrently that as we register community land we are supposed to identify uh all the public utilities and public purpose land within those community land and register them as such and this is now the responsibility of the national land commission so as communities identify their boundaries there are those uh areas which have previously been used for public uh like uh fields where we have had public gatherings uh there are some areas which have already uh advanced as shopping centers there are areas which have schools the areas which have all those kind of public uh purpose uh land and public utilities then we shall do them concurrently during the registration that the communities will be incumbent to identify those that they think uh are public uh pass those resolutions that these are public and then the national land commission will come in to register them so we may not have uh per se what we are calling overlaps what we shall have is that within one community land we shall have what is communal and what is public so what is communal is what goes to the community what is public now will be identified for that purpose and this now will will will go will be registered for for those specific county governments that a register will before we shall have two registers one of the registers will be that register of now the entire community and what is communal like grazing areas and the and the shrines and the like and then there are those public areas that now public have known from Taby Memorial that this belong to everybody this belong to everybody even you have the roads within the community land we have the rivers within the community land such such such utilities are actually public and they will be registered as such so it's not a question of overlap it's a question of documenting these things in the in in the register that this is what is public and this is what now belongs to the community for community use and also remember land use planning the communities are called upon to plan the entire land so there will be a lot of zonation there will be zoning areas for what is public what is now what even they can use for investments and the like so it's not going to be an overlap it's going to be a whole setup of a register that has all those aspects thank you Hussein thank you for that detailed response there's a comment here I think from just as Mumbai and he says when we talk of registration of community land it is a process that starts from laying of the claim to the issuance of certificate of title the persons responsible are the community laying laying the claim establishing the register and requesting for registration the national government provides adjudication registrations of community and county governments provide surveying coordination mobilizations of communities and others stakeholders also provide awareness tracing thank you that for that justice there's a question here I want to post to Husna from Justin Lushasi we are at 4 30 that is our point of time but you can go over the few remaining questions and Justin asks I see most of the responsibilities to manage land and consent sorry to manage land not only consent on dispense dispension but also implementation of the law is put on local communities how smart are these communities I mean how much do they know understand and what is provided of what is provided in the law with all those responsibilities communities up to the task that is what basically Justin is asking I should say yes up to the to the to the task why I say that because they have been living they have been there and the resources have been there the aspect is looking into into into the law was more of now recognizing the fact they have been using the land recognizing a fact they will use it I mean they have been in existence for all this time of course the controls again by the same law as productivity and also the as the main one will be the sustainable management of of it they're up to the task and that is why the assumption most times we give especially from an elite elite note is that the people don't know how I mean if I mean they don't know how to to manage them but they have been doing it and that's why the resources still there I must I must put a layman's language to say that it doesn't make you a good natural resource governance expert because you went to to school no the knowledge the local knowledge with these people have at their own levels is quite magnificent and that is what needs to be put into document has has to be documented in the aspects of recognition on how they have been managing there actually we must confess that some of the way they they they they mean some of the traditional ways they have been doing especially if you look at how they plan out to which time of the year which time of the season livestock has to be taken for grazing this other area is locked up for for for a for a worse season and stuff like that those are things which are already on record and needs to and those are the best practices which can be used now so in terms of the capacity of the communities to run or to manage their resources yes it is there we've seen from the few pilots we've done in various areas and I'm sure most of the listeners here and most of us in the panel have already come across it and the aspect is the control aspect is now with our different technical departments in the country let's say the minister of environment the water department the gender department who come in now to bring in the aspects of and bring out the monitoring discussion as well even for national uncommission they're mandated in terms of making sure that the resource is used well so these are some of the controls put in place but the capacity is there thank you well thank you who's now Shadrach maybe briefly Hank Smith asks what happened to the three implementation program the regulations were visited in November 2017 okay Shadrach yes let me clarify because there has been conflicting comments for rules and regulations it is true that regulations were published in November 2017 but that was for the purposes of tabling in the national assembly for approval so the rules and regulation commenced through the gazette notice of 31st August 2018 it is after the parliament have gone through the published rules and regulation they proposed that the sections 23 and 24 be deleted and then the CS took an option of gazetting that amendment and also declaring that now those rules are the principle what has happened since then is that there has been no need to be mentioned the promises they called us to come up with this comprehensive program I said earlier on that some counties have developed their inventories we as civil societies have been running here and there with the civic education so that at least the communities are made aware of what are in the document I think recently they said that they have been also trying some pilots in places like Samburu trying to see the different aspect of those registrations so that consulate didn't take approach to implementation has not been there unfortunately but we are hoping that maybe through this discussion both the civil societies the ministry nlc we can agree and start having meetings to ensure that we now synergize and harmonize our approaches because time is not on our side it's already eight months down the line um thank you very much um shout back a question from Florence Doley to Husna our comment is our comment is involved in decision making process if government wants to give out their land our own concession basically I think you can give what is um in the law with with the with the law what is to be less that for any for any discussion in terms of conversion definitely is the same format where the community land management committee picks up the discussion put it forward to the to the assembly and the decision comes from the assembly that's very important but of course the aspects of compulsory acquisition within the law is also stipulated well within the constitution in terms of the just prompt and fair compensation on it but it has to involve everybody in those in those discussions especially if the community land is registered if it's not still doesn't make it different definitely every other player every other person in that committee has to be involved and that is the aspects of public participation the discussion around livelihoods the discussion around use the discussion around compensation will come in at at that level but the the the constitution plus the law talks of talks more on public participation inclusion and the aspects of fpick in terms of let it be what happens in practice currently is that there's so many cries out even what you see around Turkana and the aspects of oil every the committees are crying foul in terms of they were not included in decision making of what land should be given out for for military what should be given out for exploration and stuff like that and by law I think that is not what is entertained and the inclusion of the participation of the people in deciding on on giving up their land for for for concessions and for for any for any project so it doesn't the law is clear in terms of what should be done but the aspects of of the practice is where we want to to pull up our socks a bit in terms of including everybody into into into the discussion and even as some instances there are discussion around beneficiaries there are laws being developed some have been developed in terms of how much percent should go to the community how much percent should go to to the government and and depending I know there is an petroleum law there's an energy law which now brings out those discussion thank you thank you very much hosna one more question from Rob Martin and who says there are large foreign investments such as sgr also the lab set and under it the question is is do these opportunities or constraints in the management of community lands briefly saying thank you for that question the in fact the large investments maybe because currently we don't have any community land that has been registered the county governments have been taking care of this because they have what you call a fiduciary responsibility to take care of all that belongs to the community before the communities are registered but once the communities are registered then if there are any foreign investments then it is the responsibility of the communities to negotiate with the with the with the investors and have their own terms the act is very clear it has even stipulated out areas of concern and what the community what we call community benefit sharing the act has clearly stipulated community benefit sharing and how the communities can progress to negotiate to with the with the investors and be able to benefit so I think investments in community land is is an opportunity for the communities only that registration has not taken effect now if the registration had taken effect communities will benefit a great deal by being on the forefront of negotiating being on the forefront of even outlining how they are going to share these these benefits and the social corporate responsibilities they are in outlined then the communities will put this forward and document them in their agreements thank you Hussein very much on Dari our last question to Shadrack and very briefly the question is from Kehendi Babalola is the community law as the customer law recognized and emphasized in the new community land law in Kenya this is because there is no way community land rights can be recognized without incorporating customer law very briefly um in a many Shadrack I think it is both yes and no but the customary rights have been practiced over time so even when it was not recognized in the constitution and in the laws it was still continued so it was only fair that we don't lose this big percentage of our nature of our identity as a people when it comes to managing land and natural resources and I think that logic carried the day and it was included in the constitution and in our laws thank you thank you very much Shadrack and thank you very much everyone our dear listeners we've we've had um very interactive session we've um uh covered quite um in details um the status of community land uh in Kenya what the constitution says this viability despite of course various interests that needs to be reconciled and um the main emphasis from our panelists is that um the main responsibility lies with the government of Kenya which needs to take the lead role as a primary rights holder and um as things are things are quite slow and the urge is for the government to move with the speed to put in place some basic requirements for the rest of the stakeholders also to join in and do their bit we've had very interesting questions from you thank you very much then some questions that maybe we have not able been able to answer because of time we will pose the same questions to our panelists and we can provide response via emails and I say thank you very much one more time and we will provide a short report about this for our documentation thank you and goodbye everyone