 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, well today. It's not Warhammer because it's just uncle Adam and I We're not talking about Warhammer. We're talking about a different game In fact, we're talking about a whole different thing as a matter of fact more than just one game We're here. We're talking about snarl Which is what we're gonna talk about all of today Which is our zine our newest Offering from snarling badger studios. So welcome everybody Adam. Thanks for being here much much appreciated Absolutely. No, I just know if you couldn't keep me away It's good to hear I mean you could you probably could you could just not you can share the discord or whatever Yeah, I could just boot you right out right now. I would be in the comments though Friendship over cancel your plane ticket for like three weeks from now Yeah, exactly Very much looking forward to that that is gonna come at the end by the buy of a huge period of stress for me I think I told you this but I'll actually be you'll get here to my house before I will because I'll right Yeah, yeah out of town for a work thing and then I'll get back in that night There's a huge period of stress around that and so come back and just let her snap Yeah, it'll be it'll be good and then obviously my wife has her big thing going on And so it's just it's a bunch of stuff. So anyways Enough of that. Let's talk about this thing First of all, welcome everybody. So glad to have you here for those of you We're all joining in or just coming off an ad or something like that. Who knows with with YouTube these days but We're glad to have you and We're gonna be talking all about snarl. We're gonna talk about what's in this new zine Why we're doing a zine how often we're gonna do the zine. We're gonna answer your questions About this so hit us up Hopefully everybody will be joining in but I guess first where I want to start with this and so we're not doing any normal segments here No, no news. No nothing like that But I do want to just talk for a minute before we get into the the meat of the snarl Into the snarl of it all which is just to say Adam. How you doing man? How's it going? How's life? I'm doing. Okay. I my back is messed up and It has been causing me some trouble, but if for the most part, it's okay I've hopefully it's gonna start getting better Otherwise the the thing that's interesting and this is this is strange like so it started on Sunday and then on Monday I'm like Monday night. I got a stream I got a sit on this stool for three hours and paint and that's never usually a particularly comfortable stool however, it is almost perfect for This particular lower back issue that I currently have like I sat there for three hours got up and walked away And I didn't have a single like no twinge. Nothing. It was fine So because it forces you to kind of sit like this like you have maybe yeah, like I kind of have to yeah Maybe something like that, but it's so yeah, so that at least I got that going for me, which is nice So yeah, I did that and so I've been able to do some other painting and stuff like that Which has been also real nice but yeah, I It's it's one of those things where I you know It allowed me to actually spend some time doing some other painting a couple nights ago and then this morning Yes, this morning. I Started working on the piece that I'm gonna start working on on Friday on stream Which is basically the big necron doom stalker So he was all built and by finally get his base all textured everything like that And so then he needed to be primed you need to be sprayed in the airbrush and all that kind of stuff So that stuff's also taken care of so Nice nice It was not a hobby intense weekend from early session say this way. It wasn't like I didn't get to paint much That's what I mean. I Was that holy havoc this last weekend. It was a great time would recommend 10 out of 10 Had I had a wonderful time with everybody There's it's always a great group of people there had five amazing games of poor hammer against some really awesome people and Then came home got home late late late that night because I had to drive you know all the way back from Chicago after the term it's over on Sunday and then got up that next morning and flew out for work and was gone for work for two days got back in last night and And then today so basically I've just had no time Still have been working some so I've been trying to hobby where I can But now it's time to buckle down and start I got it I got a videos to work on and editing to do and stuff like that I've got our next game to keep working on and writing I'm a little off the the horse on that one because of this past weekend where I didn't have my normal Time to write on Saturday and Sunday So Yeah Lot on the plate lot on the plate, but I'm happy to be here. Let me say that I'm happy to be here with you The average Joe said it's the crazy, Wisconsin weather taking it's told there's a heat wave in November here I see is it warm? Is it warm there? I mean it was like In the low 60s yesterday good lord. Yeah, November. Yeah, that's yeah And today it was like in the high 40s of low 50s. Yeah, it was kind of weird So I've heard that we're gonna have a mild winter this year because of El Nino Is Spanish for the Nino? I've also heard that. Yeah, and so that'll be that'll be weird. I don't know All right rock and roll. Yeah. Well, I don't mean a mild winter in Wisconsin Still probably not a great winter by most places standard. Yeah, you know depends on where you're at. I suppose. Yeah, there you go Terrence Milner said funny to hear today catching up on stream events was a few towns over strictly war and revenge They have another game. So it's just a just a Warhammer tournament It is a well it's a Warhammer event and it is the Warhammer event in my estimation So this holy havoc is run by Steve Herner Who is a to out of the Chicago area? This is specifically in Naperville, which is like greater, Chicago land Northern Chicago, I think yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not really in Chicago itself. Mm-hmm and the amazing thing about Holy havoc and and the associated holy war Steve does this twice a year Adam you've been there. You should see the new tables. He's made sense. You were there by the way. Oh, yeah Yeah, I suppose yeah, there's even there's like two new ones since he since you came to visit us They're just incredible. He finished the slanesh table for this year And I actually made a big donation to him this year for for a new table Which I won't spoil anything about it, I'll just simply say the words meet trees But you've also donated some meet trees to me as well, which I was like, oh Thank you, you know, I mean, so I got me trees to go around buddy. You got me trees for days. Yeah But um, I mean the tables themselves aren't experienced because they're just there they're it's it's unlike anything else You've seen as far as the terrain and the tables go and the tables have all these incredible rules And you're playing around the table and they're killing your army and letting you do amazing things And stuff like that. So it's it is a truly different way to play Warhammer and One that is highly fun and rewarding You've got a little in the fall game, which this one just happened You got an extra little figure in your army called a little warlord and he's going on a little RPG like quest throughout the entire tournament. So it was a great deal of fun. Had had a great time and Tom I only dropped four points the whole tournament. So I like that narrative that narrative stuff, you know, I mean I think that's fun So did you guys win best general? No somebody else did we won What did we win we won best best display board for our display So that was cool, which I was very happy about because that's I which that will be a Video as well speaking of that editing I need to do right right I have a bunch of video shot from the tournament of our display board and stuff like that and video of us making the board And I need to assemble that giant nightmare into something So who knows? But anyway Yeah, enough of at the other thing of note. That isn't the only thing that happened this weekend Adam Obviously, I was at a tournament but something else happened. He said segueing oh so naturally What was that we launched snarl? Oh, well, I mean sure. Yeah. No, I mean that's on Friday I was thinking on Saturday or something. Yes, you're right on Friday. We did launch snarl after months of teasing and and yeah, so It's The concept is that we wanted to make something That was more of a You know, we wanted to have like a kind of a very a smaller kind of we've been kind of calling it a micro game Yep, and I like that concept a lot and It also to some degree frankly puts Kind of bumpers on our Development like you, you know, there's times when you're like, oh, we can make it do this we can make it do that But then we have to go yeah But that's gonna add extra, you know words and we're trying to keep it within a certain number of pages and that kind of stuff when you Give yourself basically this sort of restriction Then you have to get a little bit more creative to make certain things happen one of the things that you know You're not gonna find in snarl is like solo or co-op play But this kind of game I don't think really is lent to that as much this game is definitely about a fun kind of beer and pretzels two to ten players, you know You know, this is something that's gonna work great at small conventions This is gonna be great at game nights and things like that, you know Yeah, so there's a big benefit to that and so we wanted to do that And we also wanted to produce something where we could then also put in some very small kind of modular Expansions as well to some of our other games without having to go full-blown expansion somebody in my chat on Sunday on the Everett or Sunday show was like so, you know, you guys had said you weren't gonna do expansions and You know like I appreciate that you like listened to the To the you know to the the public and made expansions anyway, and I'm like well I mean these aren't expansions per se. They're like, you know, they're add-ons and I know that that sounds like it's flipping hairs but like to me an expansion is a thing that's like a Like oculus spear is an expansion. It's adding, you know, six news scenarios and a whole new thing and all that stuff And the ability to play solo and co-op Whereas, you know, these are like, you know, the the space station zero portion of it is literally just a bunch of new Toys, you know that you sure you knew and that's cool But I don't that would we couldn't sell that as an expansion I don't think so, you know putting it into a publication like this just makes a lot of sense It also gives us something to put out in the fall so that we're not just, you know But it's not like putting out two big games a year It's putting out kind of a small one and then you know the bigger one in the spring. Yeah So like a couple things I'll say the one thing is what it was like why why this why this mini game Some people might ask why not just do a second game in the fall and the answer is because I Like being alive and I would not be if I had to write a whole second full-size Potentially a hundred page game twice a year. They're a lot of work. It turns out We've had people ask us they're like, well, what why do you why do you do it once a year? And the answer is because we don't want to do it twice a year I mean, it's yeah, you know, I think that there's other people out there who are like I don't know why you don't do it every four years and we're like I mean, we can do it quickly, but we can't do it that quickly like to a year But we can do one and then kind of a small one and that's that's not too bad. Yeah Yeah, I mean, it's this and this may surprise people but it turns out that you know Designing games, especially as we do because it's not like I'm just iterating on some concept, right? I'm not just writing like the newest battle tome for some set of rules that already exists based on some previous material like I Mean we are to some degree cutting each of these from whole cloth, right? Mm-hmm and In that in that instance it means that there's a lot of Work that's gonna happen there as far as like what's going on the design of it the testing of it Just you know Taking everything from concept all the way through to a finished playable. Hopefully high-quality game Is a lot of work for both of our parts, right? Mm-hmm. I Think are the difference between the two of us in our partnership and and the work because I think we both have Really critical components of this but the difference for mine is mine is like The way I view it is this maybe maybe I have a different perception. Maybe you'll say I'm wrong Mine is like long and iterative Right, but but overall sort of low intensity like I have to be writing and thinking a lot over a long period of time Usually like three to six months, right something like that and we meet pretty much weekly and we you know And you you say okay This is what I did this week and then we kind of bounce ideas back and forth and things like that But yeah, it is it predominantly is ball in your court for a good long time Whereas yours is like compressed and intense Like when it comes to you and your turn to like when I pass you the baton and again It's the same thing then you're the one when we meet weekly. You're like, okay. Here's what I'm working on here Here's my dad. Here's this. Here's this this font this art this thing this marketing so on and so forth, right? And yours is like wham. You gotta do all this is a big stack I can get a lot of things done during your design phase I you know I start talking to illustrators and I work on the logos and I will like okay Well, this is the you know, this is what the pages are gonna look like but when the time is done and that the text is done and we've gone through several different editors and things like that to look for Issues and whatever Yeah, then it does definitely and and Majestic 13 was real weird in that it was all you Well, yeah, because there was no illustrator, right? So it was like it was you know That yeah, that one took like a couple of months because I did all the like kind of photo manipulations and all that kind of stuff Which allowed me to make the right thing for the right part of the page at the right time in the right size and stuff like that But it also extended things out whereas with like even with snarl here We worked with an illustrator Nathan J. Anderson and he did three pieces of art for snarl We didn't want to go crazy because it's also like You know, it there's there's like a kind of a cost thing you have to go Okay Well, if we spend this much on if we put if we spend $2,000 on art for the a zine Is that worth it? You know, so we kind of dialed that back and then also got to reuse some pieces from, you know previous you know from Rain and Hell and from space station zero, but it was literally just like just plop it in there Okay, cool And so that does speed things up the other thing that speeds up snarl as well as the fact that it is It's PDF only and there's no print when we do one of our print titles in the spring We have to have that done At least a good in a perfect world. It's a month before release It has to be done because then we send it off to them and then they sit on it for anywhere from five to 12 days and then they mail us back a printed proof Which we then look at and if there's something that needs to change like oh, this is printing too light Which is what happened on the first iteration of rain and hell I had these like behind each of the philosophies and stuff like that I had these kind of the very almost like transparent kind of like little Symbols for each of the different philosophies and they were set at I still remember it now They were set at 13% So it's like a black symbol at a hundred percent and then at 13 percent It's very light gray and you could barely see them on the print So I went through and changed them all to 18% and then they look better But we had to basically get another proof made in time for us to go live on the date We wanted to go live with the PDF Literally, I could have made a change 20 minutes before uploading it and it would have been fine And also I can technically make changes afterwards and then people who bought it will just get a notice saying hey There's been an update go grab the update and you can kind of do that So that's that's a big benefit too to doing the scene as it is a little bit less time intensive on layout and stuff like that But this was the first one too So there was a little bit of that kind of like learning curve on this sort of format Yeah, yeah, so let's talk about the basics here for everyone. Let's bring everybody in what the heck are we even talking about? What is this snarl thing? We just got into it like we all you all know, but hey, so let's give I'm gonna hit you with a fax Just lay it down. Here we are one Uncle Adam and I make games. I hope you knew that if you didn't guess what you can find the link for all of them Down in the description including snarl the new zine Snarl is a zine as Adam mentioned. It's PDF only it's eight bucks for the thing But what do you get for that eight dollars for that basically large cup of coffee from Starbucks or something coffee's too expensive these days Let me just say that but at any rate, what do you get for that eight dollars? Okay, so you get Tanks for the apocalypse which as Adam mentioned is a tank game set in the post apocalypse where you're driving basically In the in the world in that story as it's converted as we talked about it's an M4 Sherman You could use any tank or group of tanks you like you could do a version in Germany and you're all driving Pansers or something I'd be fine sure and That is a basically 22 page game sounds right off the top of my head. It's right about there Yeah, yeah, the overall book is 20 the whole zine is 28 pages including the covers. That's right So 22 page game multiplayer 2 to 10 players chaos fun post apocalyptic tank battle Madness, right? What do you also get? Well, you also let's just take a look here. This is probably the best way to do this Boom, you also get an add-on for rain and hell called rain and hell the reckoning which adds a new philosophy as well as two new scenarios for you to play through in rain and hell so a new philosophy new Chosen demon and everything associated to that and then space station zero There's an add-on called new discoveries that brings new gear weapons technology Basically, you can outfit your crew in a new way for additional for rays into space station zero Okay, so What I want everybody to do by the buy the whole point of this thing is we're going to answer all your questions So start dropping your questions in the comments now and we'll move through them as we go We'll talk about stuff and then we'll answer questions and so on and so forth Jen asked said what scale is the game? Yeah, it's it's assuming 28 millimeter But it's also in inches if you want to play with 15 millimeter tanks You could just switch everything to centimeters and there you go I mean honestly if you just wanted to use 15 millimeter tanks and still do everything inches You could probably do that too the trick is that all the tanks are the same size as long as all as long as all the Tanks are the same size then scale doesn't matter. That's right. But we designed it initially for 28 millimeter. So yeah, which would be like bolt-action Rubicon models that kind of stuff. That's more like a 156 scale Airfix and people like that make a lot of 170 second scale, which are smaller But they're not as small as like flames of war But again as long as all your tanks are roughly the same scale or same size as each other It shouldn't matter. It shouldn't really matter. Yeah, you can be dry You can all be driving around rhinos or predator tanks or whatever out of a GW like non-scaled like just lunatic stuff And it'd be fine, right Yeah, Psygnus says whoops all Bane blades. Yeah, those are those might be a little bit They'll be bumping into each other a lot. Yeah, yeah Those might be too big because those are huge tanks. I mean they are super cool But you know the point being is that you can you can scale it up or scale it down The game will work whether you're dealing with traditional like bolt-action 28 millimeter tanks or flames of war smaller scale tanks It's fine. You could if you want to keep everything exactly the same You can just switch inches to centimeters boop there you go And now you've scaled appropriately Otherwise you can just play on the same size man use the same things and it'll be fine You're not it doesn't actually change that much What's going on? So yeah, like a question here from Jeff How do you plan to decide which game ideas you want to turn into a full game versus which ideas will be a microgame and snarl? Yeah, great question. Okay, so The answer is we have a lot of different ideas for games and Adam and I talk them through and say like how big do we think this game is right? How big does it need to be? When we have sort of the guiding principles of the game and our own and our own just interest level and desire in the game, right? like You know with majestic 13 let's take the last game We did or space stations here because I was that was when they came out of my head, right? I think both of us had a pretty high interest passion in those two concepts and really wanted to like Explore it deeply you thought you had this really cool idea for tanks the apocalypse. This was your this was your your idea as well but The reality is I just I didn't like I could write a hundred page tank fight game But it doesn't need to be a hundred pages. Yeah, no I mean this was a good concept for a smaller game the fact that everybody's running the exact same thing definitely lends itself a lot more to To you know to a zine in that situation because you you know like with rain and hell you have six different philosophies Which are basically factions you have three different potential Leaders for each faction, you know that you could then do they then all have different leader roles And then you've of course got your devotee for each faction that's specific and then you have all these other so there's so many different things but with the idea the beauty of this game was it was just like It's just your tank. You just have the one tank and your opponent has a tank and maybe you three or four opponents They all have a tank and they're all basically the same tank minus some original Malfunction's upgrades and malfunctions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know and but but beyond that it's they're basically the same tank So it's a much smaller game It kind of just the the scope of it just really seemed this is definitely something that we don't you know need To make into a full-blown, you know 60 70 80 90 page book or whatever like that or more Yeah, cuz like, you know rain and hell was like 64 pages space station zero was like a hundred and twenty four pages and The Majestic 13 was like 144 pages. So they've been getting bigger. We're gonna try to not go quite so big again this time That is the current plan for our next spring game But yeah, it comes down to maybe the scope of the idea And and and that kind of stuff and to be fair you could probably take nearly any idea and expand it out big or Trinket down small, but sometimes you look at it and go this would be easier to do big or this would be easier to do small I think yeah, that's right. That's right Terrence that's very nice, but no we didn't reach out to warlord. I don't think we're gonna cause a run on their tanks all by ourselves I hope not I hope they're producing more than that but there you go Any thoughts to water slides of that skull on the tank on the cover of snarl, that's a neat thing I know there's a couple different companies like who who's always at Nova who makes all the different water slide decals for Vehicles, what's the name of that? They weren't there this year, but they have it back in the past They used to be called. I don't know if they're still around or not, but it used to be fallout hobbies There you go fallout hobbies. Yeah, they always had a lot of I use some of them in the video that I made this last Saturday some of the Some of the decals that I used were actually Were actually from fallout hobbies, so yeah I own a bunch of them too, but I'm not currently sure where they are. So that's why I didn't use any of those I just used the ones that came in the because I got both my tanks are from warlord and They are so they have some some stuff in the the package, you know relatively limited amount, but these still works Yeah, the little bluish back ones and then I also used some stuff from death ray designs, too so I Mean honestly, I could see I don't know like death ray designs will do custom like we could if we wanted to we could make like a Sheet of like different, you know decals and then sell it or something like that. Maybe you know, I that's a possibility I've talked to to him in the past I've talked to Austin in the past about that because I've been thinking about getting just straight up like tabletop minions Decals sure sure that's super cool. I'm so yeah, you gotta have that conversation again We got to get some like snarling badger get our little badger guys with people coming Oh, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Nice. Nice Ben Bricio said how many total pages so it's 28 total and that brings up an important note when you pick up the PDF Like I said, it's only eight bucks. It actually comes with two files in there One of them is three technically because it's also the tank sheet. Correct. Also. They got the tank two main files of the zine one of which is Formatted to be Zine printed on the short edge so you can then just fold and staple and There you go And then the cover is the cover and the back is the back and everything reads page to page accordingly it used to be that and when I first printed my first copy of Space weirdos You could just tell adobe acrobat reader the free program Hey, print. This is a booklet and it would do it just great and you could you didn't have to worry about the margins And at some point in their infinite wisdom our friends at Adobe whom I hate they're definitely not our friends. No, they're no one's friends totally facetious They you can't set margins when you tell it to booklet print anymore So it adds another whole margin on all the outsides So what I ended up having to do is from the design software we I use which is called in design I told it to basically print a PDF in booklet format straight from in design And then that's why there's a version where they eat half by 11 pages You see two on one side and then yeah, you have to print it There's it it's a little tiny tiny tiny bit tricky, but then the margins work, right? So unfortunately, I thought I had a copy of it up here But I must have both my copies downstairs and basement so I would wave it at you and whatnot But yeah, it's it's not up here, but yeah So the benefit there is don't print the one where it's just page one page two page three page four Use that at you know on your iPad or your laptop or your whatever your phone But when you want to print it there's a printable version and digital version in the files and you get both of them So that's right Sure, I'd said can it be scaled up if I wanted to get something like it to me a model Yeah, sure You like it can you can scale around just move the the rest of the measurements accordingly There's nothing that tied to the scale of the thing Smaller or bigger is not gonna make any difference to this sort of gameplay I think like when someone mentioned Bane blades before you would get to a point where all of a sudden not a three foot by three foot You couldn't fit too many. Yeah, you just have to scale up the board as well. Exactly. Yeah, you know, and that's fine Do you plan on adding more add-ons for tanks for the apocalypse? I know my answer is I we're never gonna say no through that what the zine format is gonna allow us to do is If we have a good idea for something that's an add-on then it can show up in this format, right? Do I currently have something burning in my back pocket for tanks? No, I don't But like if if the if the muse hits This will be the place where we can deliver that right and and and make sure that there's always the potential for for new value To be added into the the existing games. So yeah Waffles enjoy or are there different tanks with different stats? No, there is a base tank It has a set of it has a set stats and then you roll a starting upgrade and a starting malfunction for your tank So every tank is slightly different and then over time if you play in a short campaign It's meant to probably be a five six game campaign, you know, not pretty reasonable Then your tank can either repair its malfunctions and or gate Get various upgrades that can set it apart. So there you go Jen I said I've been sitting here enjoying these near I sorry Iing those new 30k epic tanks. So that's what I was thinking of just flip everything from inches a centimeter sounds like it Would keep everything reasonable. Yep, you got it I'm gonna have you take this one cuz this is one we talked about a lot the main weapon is mentioned in the rules But what about things like the 50 cal any suggestions? Why don't we have rules for the minigun that's on there? Well because it wouldn't really do much to the other tanks too much as far as I know I'm not a historian, but Generally from what I understand that gun on the top and even the coax gun on the front was designed for things that were not Tanks. So as you are driving around You know it through the you know the the American Midwest Wasteland And you are oppressing other survivors and stuff like that in their little, you know villages and Huffles and such that 50 cal is doing work if you have shells for it if you've got if you've got you know Ammunition you are definitely even if you don't if you just are pointing it and they think they don't know if you ammunition You'd be like, okay, we'll give us all your watermelons or whatever. I don't know what goes on the apocalypse But yeah, so that that's what that's for Or just the we'll run over all your stuff. I mean that's also You know, that's bad, right? You don't want to do that. Sure But when it gets into tank battle time, you don't want to be hanging out the top of that thing shooting that You know 50 cal at the other tank because a it's not going to do much and be then you're probably gonna get you know Probably hurt at the very least, you know what I mean? So yep Absolutely. Yeah, I just ultimately we couldn't find a good home for it And what it was actually going to do in a tank on tank game. That's what Because there's no infantry present or stuff like that Okay Let's see Cygnus Maximus said rain and hell is my favorite a snarling badger studios game you've done So I'm glad to see more for it. Are there any ideas for more philosophy scenarios, etc. In future zines Cygnus I have a deep and abiding love for rain and hell And my answer would be stay tuned Okay, and you you never know what's gonna happen, but something something You know hell is always there just waiting for us James 730, how did you come up with the concept of tanks for the apocalypse? I mean Adam, this was this was your concept. So I'm gonna toss this over you. Yeah, so I I Don't remember what I was It was this is long before the Oppenheimer movie, but I remember I think that I was listening to a podcast That was talking about the Manhattan project. It was like a four or five part series And I think it was on last podcast on the left and there was the talk about How Enrico Fermi Fermi it was like well There's a chance that this test might just set the entire atmosphere on fire and that would be bad And they were like ah, yeah, whatever and in the movie from what I haven't seen Oppenheimer yet But in evidently in the movie I know I saw one of the trailers like the whole concept of the non-zero chance that this might set the atmosphere on fire They're like well, that's not but that's still a chance, right? And he's like ah, it's it's fine And so my thought process initially was just like well, what if that was what caused the apocalypse? What if because so frequently of apocalypses that happen in movies, you know, like You know like Mad Max and that's much Mad Max man Well the apocalypse in Mad Max had already kind of started But then when they made Road Warrior that was definitely like a nuclear apocalypse, which was totally different So it was kind of strange, but whatever The whole concept though basically in so many, you know movies I don't know, you know hell comes to Frogtown is another one, you know But lots of movies the apocalypse is happening in the 80s or the 90s or in the future And I'd never really seen a movie where the apocalypse happened in 45 so I thought that was kind of an interesting concept and then I was like, okay, so what would that entail and then Just the concept of like I've always kind of wanted to make a game where you just you was just you in a tank Like that was you you didn't have to have multiple tanks. You didn't have to have infantry It wasn't a game that required six different models, you know or a group of tanks It was you know tank on tank violence and relatively simple like that And then the two ideas just kind of gelled together and then the name Like many of the names that I do come up with the name just sort of jumped into my head And so I was like, oh, yeah, okay. Let's do that. And so yeah, it kind of came together that way It's just the idea of like what if the apocalypse happened this way because of this thing and then Can I then just take this idea of having a tank because initially I wanted to make a tank battle game years ago That was hover tanks So using kind of like vectored comp like vectored movement where like you could be moving one direction But like, you know swivel around and shoot behind you and stuff which is kind of stupid in a tank Tanks have turrets so you could just turn the turret I suppose but nonetheless. Yeah It this this is kind of I wanted to make a tank game at some point and this kind of storyline Lended itself and then the whole idea of the zine. It also was just I think a great kind of substrates for the whole thing Yep All right, perfect. Let's see Okay, what's next you do do Uh Sometimes simple games are the most one to play. Yeah, I agree. I agree Mm-hmm. I think this is a great can a great game to take to like local conventions Like get you know, either you and a bunch of friends all bring a couple of tanks each and then maybe run a huge game Or maybe you've been building tanks for a while or you three print a bunch of tanks Just spray paint of different colors or whatever and run like a big event and just have people who've never played It's pretty quick and simple to teach, you know, and then you could just be running kind of events and stuff like that I definitely want to try to run something at adept a con. I think that'd be a hoot I think that You know TMX I could see us running something there like you know, everyone B. Y. O. T. You know bring your own tank And then go to town. Yep Absolutely, it's also good as I mentioned in the video This is actually a really good game for sort of kids if you've got multiple kids You want to play something this is the part of the part of the playtesting was done with children Just to make sure and they had a grand old time with it and it's they still talk about it to this day So there you go Would you want to do your own take on existing settings like more time? I mean not really is my answer like I did a little more time thing back at the beginning of age sigma I mean the problem here is one we want to actually sell this Yeah, licensing and GW is not licensed in jack from to well I mean if we were a video game company be different story together, but then yeah Otherwise no, right. Yeah, but even even outside of like the existing IP like a you know, some you think well, okay Not not a games workshop IP. That's just an example Right could could be any old IP something that's languishing and you could buy for you know a wink and a nod Um, not really. It just it doesn't interest me that much. There's no existing IP that that that I think I look at and go Um, yeah boy, I'd really want to give my take on on that I think both Adam and I value coming up with our own Concepts there's been a couple we've talked about. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we we had talked about And I just mentioned it a couple of minutes ago but we had talked about uh hell comes to frog town the rowdy rowdy piper movie from Let's say the 80s. I'm pretty sure it was in the maybe the late 80s. I don't know It was a B movie at best um And it's just always sort of had it just was I That the title is so funny And I remember I remember seeing it years ago and I just recently didn't rewatch it But I rewatched some other people watch it On on youtube like it was kind of a reaction kind of thing where they you know, it's not the entirety of the movie It's like they kind of go through the 20 minutes and they talk about what they thought about it But they're reacting to certain things that are happening and stuff like that and I had forgotten how problematic that film is So yeah, sadly, I don't think we're going to be trying to get the uh license for that anymore, but That's you know As many things of our youth unfortunately have become Yeah, yeah Average joe have you considered making stl files to accompany your games? It would be neat to print out your own tanks to payton play Um, sure. Yeah, I mean we we've talked about it It adds a lot of time and work and costs and effort and like it's We're we're two of us ultimately when it comes down to it, right? I mean with the tanks there are tons of Right tanks already out there like that's one of the benefits of this game Like like I said, I was initially kicking around the idea of some sort of hover tank game Well, then people were going to have to come with hover tanks Which it might be kind of hard to find hover tank kits and stuff like that M4 Sherman kits not hard to find you can find them There's multiple different manufacturers and lots and lots and lots of stl's like already in the discord I've we've seen plenty of people who are like, well, I printed out three of them Here you go And I'm going to start painting them now and that kind of stuff so for this particular game specifically There's no particular interest in doing that We've been having people asking us since we started the first game Well, why aren't you making miniatures for these games? And again the answer is generally is as vince just said there's just the two of us It is a ton of work and be The the other thing is really that it's a game like we like the the miniature agnostic stuff so that you can Use the models you already have or use the models you've always wanted to use But you just didn't you know have a use for them like, you know I mean, we've talked about this so many times like anything can be a demon if you think about it If you if you believe in yourself, you know And so there are people using dnd character type or not characters, but like dnd monsters I used dnd monsters in um majestic 13 for the aliens like those aren't alien models We came up with those are two different types of Some sort of dnd monsters. I don't even remember the names of them But yeah, you had like a slod it was one of them and then something yeah something like that And you just spray him with like, you know turbo dork color shifty paint in the boom. There you go done aliens So yeah, I mean an orc You know like with an axe Maybe not necessarily an easy alien might not be a good sell But there's so many other different types of models out there So again, like vince has also said never say never But um, it would have to be some sort of situation where we would work with somebody specifically And it would there would be a reason to to go down that road Yeah, like with like something we were creating doesn't have, you know A huge amount of readily available miniatures on the market or something like that It's the the robot squirrel conundrum as I exactly the robot squirrel conundrum If you were going to do the robot squirrel combat game You would need to make robot squirrels. That's right. Yeah, exactly Uh, William hatton asks a question that I am very much excited to answer William said do you think there's design space for a compelling miniature game not an RPG without combat? William I do I really do I don't think it will sell valley very well I don't think adam and I would make very much money off of it I think it would be a lot of work, but it's something I absolutely want to do So I actually I recently had a conversation with adam about this And one of the nice parts about it just being the two of us is we can just decide to make something That we know won't be very successful We don't have to be uh, we can be bad capitalists and not be an eternal growth model because we know that the people who Who actually play it will love it and it will be something that is unique and and we can create something that's that's um valuable to those people uh for reasons beyond just you know, some kind of monetary exchange and So I've got a couple ideas bouncing around But this is a thing that is very much Uh Like this sort of cottage core kind of thing has very much come to board games The board game space is is rife with this Like I don't know adam if you notice this at uh adepticon They're not sorry not adepticon at um Gen con this year. Thank you. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say Um, there was a lot of these types of board games around right? They're like very cute very fanciful very like fairy core and cottage core type of Aesthetic to them There's a card game that I that I keep meaning to get for my wife. That's I think called It's basically about knitting. I forget what it's called But I think it has the word ravelry in it or something and there's maybe cats that are Maybe wizards, but also knit or something like that. Sure. Yeah She likes cats and she likes knitting, but I don't and she likes board games and stuff like that It's maybe a little bit more cutesy than than either of us is particularly prepared for but yeah, I mean I think that definitely within zine Herb zine within snarl the zine. I could definitely either being spaced for something like this that would be kind of interesting. Yeah Yeah, so it's absolutely the kind of thing I want to explore and um Because I I just think there's value. I just don't think every miniature game has to be about killing things I just don't like I think you could there's lots of space you could do there Um board games have gone so deep into this card games have gone so deep into this Why why would managers be the only game type that requires murder? I'd still look at you know, like um wingspan is a massive hit in the board gaming space And it's about birds doing bird stuff. I guess I don't know. I'm pretty sure they're not fighting each other I don't think at all. Um, yeah, so I mean that's that's definitely yeah There's definitely a lot of that kind of thing going on You mentioned gen you mentioned gen con just a second ago I just want to mention to you that uh about a half an hour before we started this uh this this stream I got a package from ups It was a very large box and it has four pieces Of uh carpet from the uh indianapolis convention center Okay, which is the the it's the it's the carpet. You know that has been Since gen con moved to indianapolis. It's that same carpet. I'm pretty sure that's been in that place That kind of maroon with the big circles and the squares and all that kind of stuff like that Well, they've started to replace it and torrent and they've been tearing it up and uh people have been buying it We're salvaging it or something and so a guy in the fans of gen con group on facebook was He's been selling pieces and he's been selling them in blocks of four And so, uh, I so they showed up, uh, literally like I don't know an hour ago now a big box from that is amazing It's really like two by two probably. I assume three foot by three foot three four three, okay They're big. Yeah, you got four perfect gen con battle mats for tanks for the apocalypse. There you go. Yeah, exactly Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Holy moses. And yes, thank you. I'm jeff season said the term that the rpg road user for this is cozy games Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I could do that make sense Okay, uh, let's see Um chaplain gremolda salutation's vinson adam and all how is measuring done should models be on bases? Are their faces are their victory conditions? Is this like battle tech account for he critical hits, etc? Okay, many questions there chaplain It's definitely not like battle tech. I can just start by there like battle tech is if if battle tech's complexity is here Our game's complexity is here. Okay, and that's a very intentional choice I mean, this is a 22 page zine game as opposed to like One of the more complicated games ever made I'm saying that from a place of love I I have a deep and abiding love battle tech. This just isn't meant to be that Okay, um, are there victory conditions? Oh, yes 100% so like absolutely It's not just like drive around and kill people in yeehaw like there are absolutely victory conditions and points you get For damaging enemy tanks destroying enemy tanks achieving secondary objectives Like there's things you're trying to do during a game and even things you're trying to do beyond just like kill the enemy tanks Uh, you're you're also trying to do some kind of secondary objective that will get your points All right Okay, um, are there phases? No, there are no phases It uses a blind alternating activation system Uh, and then at when it becomes your activation You have a set of action dice normally eight dice, but that can decrease over the course of the game as your tank takes damage And you allocate those two different actions Okay So you can allocate them to say movement or shooting the main gun or popping smoke or whatever things like that And Each of those things cost some number of dice and then once you've allocated all of your dice You then execute those actions in whatever order you'd like as appropriate assuming there's no restrictions on them For example, like you have to pop smoke is the last action on your your activation You can't do it first and then drive away from the smoke Um, wouldn't make any sense wouldn't make any sense doesn't do anything turns out Hey, what's that? What's that cloud of smoke back there? Uh, nobody's gonna shoot that So that's basically how that is and then how is measuring done standard way Like and just if you're using 28 millimeter stuff Like I said earlier in the show centimeters If you want if you want to shrink it down to 10 or 15 millimeter stuff If you feel like it you could also just use those on a normal thing But you pre-measure everything if your movement is random Um, it's based on the amount of dice you allocate to the the movement So you never know exactly how far you're gonna move But everything else and your gun has an unlimited range on the board. It's just blocked by line of sight So and they're not they're not on bases the models you yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, just tanks just tanks drive around tanks Just tanks driving around Uh, average joe could you go over a brief example of a round? Of I assume you mean of tanks for the apocalypse um, sure, so there is a Couple things on that one. There is a battle report Down in the description. There is a link you will find to snarl and on that Site there there is a you can find the link out to my battle report I'll be publishing that at some point as well and just make it public on the channel right now It's you can only access it through the website You can see the whole game in practice in play. So if you want to see more you want to see a full played game That's the way to go about it But I just kind of walked through it like you're you would there's a blind activation You're going to take your eight dice. Let's say you allocate like Four to movement three to firing the main gun and one to popping smoke. That's pretty standard sort of activation If you want to move all as one you take your four dice, you don't want to split it You roll the four dice that total is how many inches you move assuming in 28 millimeter scale You can move less if you want you don't have to move the full value You can rotate up to 90 degrees once as part of that movement Firing the main gun costs the three dice and to do that you then roll three six You're comparing it against the basically the defense On the side of the enemy tank. You're aiming at or shooting at If you equal or exceed the number you do some amount of damage based on how much you beat that by So the higher over their defense you roll the more damage you potentially do There can be modifiers to that number based on what the enemy tank did how far it moved Did it take evasive maneuvers doesn't have did it pop smoke? Are you have you taken damage? Um, are you shooting through cover? You know, there's there's modifiers up and down Yeah And then that damage is resolved against the armor on that facing of the tank So side, you know left side right side front back four facings And if a side ever goes to zero and takes any amount of damage then it It takes one instance of catastrophic damage three instances of catastrophic damage and your tank is is gone That's that's basically put incredibly quick and simple and dirty. There you go average Joe That's that's that's kind of how it works But I would highly recommend you checking out the the battle report to see kind of How that plays in detail and then adam and I both have some videos where we talk about kind of high level stuff um This could be an interesting one adam. Maybe we can both answer this one. What's that? Okay, uh Well, first of all, I love bill McGovern do robot squirrels D dream of Knitting kittens. Yes. I think the answer is yes. I don't know. Probably makes sense. Yeah But uh, here's the question Uh, let's see What are your favorite dice resolution systems d6 dice pools d20 opposed rolls variable dice What what how do we like dice to work? I I have my answer. Do you I do you have a do you have an answer for this one? Um for So for dice resolution you're talking about like for combat or more for like an whatever like let's just say for an rng system In the game sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um I generally like to throw I generally like to try to throw maybe a like some dice Not handfuls and handfuls and handfuls of dice that you do when you play orcs But I like to I generally like it to kind of get done in one role The I just played a uh a game a game of combat patrol this weekend And I I don't know why but it always these days it always kind of I am flummoxed by I have to roll to hit Now I have to roll to wound Then the opponent has to roll to save and then they have to do you know feel no pain and all this kind of stuff And it just seems like it's an astounding amount of rolling and I'm like is this really coming out in the in the wash Is this like is it or is it is it really informing the way that the You know or just just making people think like they're doing something all the time because they keep rolling I think that sometimes games can feel More simple and people would be like well this game is too simple You just roll once you don't have to roll 12 times every time you want to do something and you're like well That's not necessarily a bad thing So yeah, I guess I like to see sometimes more than just a single die I like to see because you when you get into say 2d6 You obviously get that bell curve where you're getting like 7s or the highest Do you like that you get more dice combinations? It makes 7s and then it kind of goes down and you can do the same type of thing with 3d6 and stuff like that So I like that kind of thing But I do like also not having to I also do like opposed rolls too I do I kind of like like I roll add my combat you roll add your defense Let's say or something like that because it also keeps both of us kind of you know Paying attention a little bit more too. So there's that benefit too Yeah, my answer is going to be much the same and the answer is I like whatever the system Demands I really aren't I'm really I am like if you look at our games, we've used, you know Lots of very resolution systems were dice right different sizes of dice dice pools single dice rolls checks all sorts of things and I mean, I'm I'm a fan of all Types of games and played many many many many games over my life and I I think ultimately I am a big fan of sort of whatever the game Itself based on its guiding principles and the feel of that game Uh, whatever fits Right, like there's just something that that like what what grocks For that thing for how I want it to feel Sometimes it's even the story. Yeah Yeah, I mean if you look at something like, um Rain and hell like rain and hell when you're figuring out initiative You're rolling a d12 for each demon that you have still active And then how you know well, I have nobody activating in 12 or 11 But I have two activating in 10 and then one and nine and blah blah blah And you can look at your opponents as well and go well They'll be activating one and 12 but then nothing again until seven or what you know that kind of stuff And because it's a hand-to-hand combat game You have this kind of overlook of the battlefield and you can see Like kind of how the tide is turning When you look at your opponents dice in your dice to figure out how this next turn is going to go Compare and contrast that to a game like bolt action Where there's explosions and smoke and fog of war and so to show that you reach into a bag and pull out a die And it goes, oh, that's yours. So you're gonna go now. Yeah, same reason we used blind activation for for tanks, right? Exactly. Yeah, the fog of war. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that that that kind of stuff makes a ton of sense. I think yep Jeff sue says question regarding the reckoners special abilities Do the two free sixes result on a comp on on combat defense dice count towards successful defense roles that increment your reckoning score? Yes, Jeff Indeed they do. So that is the reckoner, which is the new The special demon. Yeah, the new devout demon for for the faithful the new Philosophy introduced in here has a special ability called from war make peace And yes that that will absolutely increment his other ability make war upon the enemies And that is a hundred percent intentional design. Yes, that is that is meant to work It's an interesting play pattern with him because he works He wants to activate late um and let other people try to Try to swing at him first, right, which is very different than many of the other demons who want to like Surprisingly in a game all about brutal fast combat many demons want to just be like go go go kill kill Which is fine. So it was interesting here to to flip that on its head and switch the expected play pattern Okay Uh Frank noler says are you going to pachow to the tabletop minions video saying sometimes you just want to paint a tank That's How we can't we we have no ability to magically pachow here not during a life Yeah, not during a life show unfortunately Yeah, there's plenty of times what i'm streaming on twitch when people i'm like i would reference that but i can't It won't work here on twitch. So yeah exactly um What are your design philosophies for game design? Well, I just talked about a little bit of them but ultimately it comes down to set i'm very much a top-down design person and Meaning you start with a concept and then everything flows From that and everything has to feed back to that concept um And the way adam and i work is is you know one of us has a an idea Something crazy And then we workshop it around a little bit and talk about it and figure out whether or not it actually has merit Like is this a game can we do this right? And then once we can Generally, we'll create some sort of guiding principles five six Words or short sentences that are about what you know, what's the point of this? What's this game about? And then everything must cascade or from there everything has to be within those those guardrails Like with rain and hell it was fast There was maybe a couple more words in there But let anytime you had to be able to take anything that you were writing or anything It was going on and coming up with a concept and going is this fast and brutal demonic skirmish Like if it's not if it slows things down it's not quite as fast You know what I mean or if it's not as brutal because it's more Behind the scenes scheming I mean there's some scheming going on in that game to some degree as well Like one of the leaders is known as a schemer. I believe right. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, so But but in general most everything kind of fits off of that so identifying that In the beginning and then having that be that kind of just like Goalposts that you're constantly going at is really helpful because if all of a sudden you're like if you come up with a cool idea at some point You know in a fever dream in the middle of the night and you decide. Oh, well now We're gonna add this portion to well if it doesn't if you add that to the game Is it still doing the things that you initially want to do with the game? So, you know, yeah, it's just feature creep can kill you on that situation. That's right. That's right Uh, somebody asked is there going to be a uh, a snarl compendium someday? Well, I Sure, I guess the answer is yes now. We'll have to we'll have to see how many of these we eventually get out after a couple years Yeah, but you know, it'd be fun to roll them all together into one big one big file. Sure. Absolutely Someday when when adam and I are Much older and we've got enough to actually make that happen. I mean some part of this Comes out of I think both of our shared love for The gaming magazines that we grew up with right like I mean I cut my teeth growing up in the 80s and 90s reading you know white dwarf and scry and uh White or sorry end of dragon magazine and and you know those kinds of things For me, dragon magazine and auto dual quarterly that was man I I owned a bunch of those for car wars a whole bunch And and you know you open those up and it was just like everyone would be like new things to explore All right, like I loved opening up a dragon magazine to be like, what what new interesting thing is here this month Now we can't do these monthly No, no Um, but like the idea that there's a fun new game that there's you know existing options for your For the games you already have or or that inspires you to try or do something new or play another another Go back to a world you hadn't been in for a long time or something like that was always just the coolest concept to me And I think that's what I really above all wanted to to to bring here more than anything else. So yeah Okay, uh Let's see Bill McGovern any suggestions for an adapting and existing ai something like doomed to the simple ai attack Which you can see in range move towards what you can see out of range move towards unseen enemy Yeah, so like if you wanted to solo play tanks Obviously, we didn't have space for it within the existing game. I mean, I'm sure that there's probably some ai you could adapt I honestly think I would rather just Do almost what I did in the battle report and and just pilot two tanks against myself and and just constantly try to outmaneuver Myself each time trying to best myself like I put I put myself in charge of each one And see how it works out like when I started that battle report. I didn't know which tank was going to win Right, like I just was whatever happens Yeah, I just kept reacting to whatever occurred on the dice on the on the move Whatever the right play was based on the last action. So um Yeah, I mean, I I think it's probably something you could adapt it would probably be It would need to have some amount of r and g to it most likely as opposed to like direct x y if x then y actions sort of thing But yeah, I'm sure I'm sure there's something you could do okay Let's see the robot squirrel find our lost nuts cooperative game coming from starling badger in 2028 Nice nice sickness. I wouldn't bet on that, but uh, but it's a good idea. There you go um Okay Uh, let's see. What else have we got here? Uh, bum bum bum. Yes, exactly sickness at gen con battle mats from what you got in the mail there for the carpet I can't believe they're actually changing the carpet in that place. Oh my god. It's been the same forever Well, that's part of the issue is it's been the same forever. So yeah, uh, but like Several years ago when they finally announced that they were going to be starting to do this and whatnot Somebody made and I got one of them But somebody made pins, you know, like, you know, like enamel pins, you know They're becoming very popular within the gaming space But it was probably about a I don't know a two inch by two inch square And it was like one of the uh those those tiles, you know, if you just type in gen con carpet into google You'll find what we're talking about if you've never been to gen con. Um, it'll it's definitely it's it's uh, I would say Probably 90s carpet most likely actually might have been early 2000s Oh, no, that looks like it came straight out of like the save from the bell diner or saved by the bell Diner sorry potentially. It's not quite colorful enough. But yeah, I know it sure Um, okay Uh, let's see My obby I imagine it's not super crunchy because the rules aren't long But how fun is it to just drop a brand new wargamer into tanks for the apocalypse? I'll be honest with you my obby. I think this is the perfect sort of gateway game I mean adam, you're you're a gateway game person. So maybe you want to talk about that more But my honest thought is this exactly the way to learn how to manage your wargame one model easy rules Yeah, like this game the big the big benefits to it are that yeah, you've got one model to keep track of Uh, secondly the bot sheet or not bot sheets are the tank sheet that that you know It keeps track of your how much armor you've got on all your sides and your damage and all that kind of jazz It also has Tons and tons and tons like it is basically a giant sheet sheet for the entire game So you have all of that information in front of you and I want to mention that tom Who's our lead developer like he basically was like hey This is the stuff that should be on the tank sheet And then I just basically prettied it up and maybe moved some things around a little bit But it was it was a super smart move on his part to put You know like to have all these extra because you know otherwise there's not a ton to track So if you print it out in eight and a half by eleven you also now have a great kind of you know Again cheat sheet which really helps With the new players who are like trying to remember. Well, what does this do and what is it's all right there kind of So that's also very helpful. Um But yeah, and and and again tom, um, you know, he Basically play tested it with his kids or with his kids one of his oldest son and his oldest son's friend All his oldest son's friends. Yeah, they're all like basically 11 through 13 It was like a birthday party sleepover or something or other. Yeah. Yeah, so that's very cool And then the next day they they wanted to play it again Which if you can get like an 11 year old to play a tabletop game two days in a row, that's that's something I think I don't know. I don't have kids. It sounds like it's a thing. So, um So yeah, so that in my mind, yeah This is like I like to teach people new games at conventions like local conventions and stuff like this. I've taught Uh song of ice or not in the song of ice and fire. No song of blades and heroes Uh, you know, which is a great little kind of skirmish fantasy game to teach people And there are other ones out there as well But I think this one's also a great easy kind of, you know, again, you're not having to keep track of a bunch of people And how, you know, well, what's this guy's hit points and what's going on over here? There's just one vehicle and you kind of go with that. So that's right. That's right uh, and so like I to me this is I think exactly the type of game that you can easily get people in on because I don't think actually like a huge amount of crunch or something like that is a very good introduction to to managers We're gaming You know, one of the first sort of mini games I ever played was admittedly battle tech But when somebody taught me battle tech First of all, they simplified it down for me to some degree And secondly, we each had one mech Not a lance or anything. Right. Yeah And I mean Like I have a deep deep love of battle tech and the battle tech universe I think 40k lore is absolutely stupid Come at me, bro. Uh, but uh, But but but battle tech lore. Oh, let's get into it. Let's get into it. Like let's Go. I'm I am a huge Battle tech lore nerd As adam has found out many times during our meetings when like randomly battle tech will come up as part of some like Larger discussion that we're having and then I'll have to go on a rant about how nobody makes the good Nobody nobody has 3d prints of the good battle tech mechs They're all crappy new Like post clan invasion Bad designs in the mechs. I want classic boxy 2750 to 3025 Either star league or secession wars era mechs. This is what I want. I want the original designs Not this new crap This is generally where we differ to some degree not so much necessarily like that I because I like again I started I cut my teeth on on some on miniature gaming Well, we were just using cardboard stand. He says time that was in middle school But that's where I started with with battle tech and you're right. We each had one mech. There was no none of this plant stuff That all being said I kind of like the newer designs a little bit because the older designs They just it was like they were just trying to make a person They're like it's a robot, but it just looks like a giant person and I'm like and he's holding a sword Like why would a person? Why would it just yes? We we are in different sometimes uh Different tacks on that particularly where I'm like I think just at the end of the arm should be a gun because then you can't drop it or whatever You know, and I guess whereas I'm like hands always hands if you could build a giant person you would give them hands What are you doing? So what you play a giant piano like again, I don't understand. This is a war machine I don't know why but anyway, but so yeah for the most part though Um, yeah, I I think that too much crunch is way too big of a hill to climb for most beginners And it's a good idea to start small Absolutely I think that just makes it for a A smoother way and especially depending on what they're coming from like I think do you mean like truly cold? You know like what's their gaming experience if it's mostly like video games and stuff like that Then they're pretty used to having everything done for them But by that I mean like calculations and and uh, you know constraints that the rules are gonna impose, right? Yeah, bookkeeping So like the simpler you keep all that the better right if they're more of a board gamer Then there's they're gonna have a slightly higher tolerance if they're a euro board gamer Well, then they have the greatest tolerance in the universe and you can hit them apparently with any level of complexity And they'll be fine because they like yeah Yeah, um The Jeff sues says question for the new reign and hell philosophy Did you say let's make a new philosophy for the zine? Or did you have a new idea for a philosophy first and decide to put it in the zine later? Um, I've had a couple ideas for extra philosophies for a while This isn't the only one that I that I have And this just happened to be a vehicle to to manifest that The scenarios were things cut from whole cloth. I I didn't You know have the scenarios Preconceived as it were I wasn't sitting there going this is what I think the board would look like right? I was like I was make two new fun scenarios Um, but the philosophies and stuff like that reign and hell is lives in my head quite quite a lot As our first game it is something that I still think about quite a lot to this to this day and that kind of thing Terrence millner said still amused by the guys who had fatigues made with the the dragon con carpet pattern That's pretty good. It's pretty good. Maybe you could do the same with the gen con pattern Oh, there's there's I there if you do a google search for gen con carpet you will find um, I saw a picture of a woman in a dress that was Basically using that same pattern. You know like if you just there's a camera that came from the name of the company Something flower, but it's a company that basically you upload a design and they will print you Fabric and then you can make whatever you want out of it and stuff like that So you upload the design and then it will be repeated over and over as you and then you get, you know Bolts of fabric and so yeah, so this person had made Uh, a gen con Carpet pattern, you know, it wasn't the thickness of the carpet. It was regular cloth, but it was that same kind of design so yeah, I'm sure that somebody also was doing the same thing with uh You know dragon con like there's all kinds of I remember as a kid Going to my local movie theater and when they changed out the carpet everyone was kind of bummed out You know because they're like, well, it doesn't it's not like what I remember as a kid growing up even though If you ran Forward and we're looking down at the carpet while you did it you would probably have thrown up because it was horrific But you know once they changed it then you're like, well But it was kind of charming Of course There's a movie theater near me that still has the same design in every way shape and form Since like the late 80s early 90s. They have not changed anything in 30 years And like to the point where when you go to a movie the room at the end of the hall is that like kids birthday room Oh, I'm talking about Your your your big popcorn and your orange drink that kind of thing. Anyways, yeah, I love that I love kitschy that kind of design. So yeah, yeah um and realistically in the 80s when they made back to the future and were obsessed with sort of like kitschy 50s design Right. Oh, yeah, you know, they were as far away from the 50s as we are right now sitting here from that kitschy 90s design 90s. Yes, if you were going to say 80s, I would be like, well, actually we're further away. Yeah, no From that kitschy 90s. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah So there you go. Yeah. Yeah Also demonic teddy said why don't you give me why do why do you give robots hands? So the robot can give the enemy the finger obviously. Yeah Exactly. Oh, plus you want the robot to be able to go. Okay, right or something like that. Like to just be thumbs up, you know Like you having hands is useful. That's why we have hands. I like they do a lot. I shouldn't need to justify hands I don't know why they don't put hands on tanks. Then I guess. I don't know. It seems like it's a good idea I first of all, uh I wrote reference you to a little anime show called outlaw star Where and somebody answered the same question for why don't spaceships have arms and hands and they were like, you know what? That's right. That's a design flaw And then that's the whole thing those those spaceships have little arms and hands that come out and grapple with each other So I'm just saying I mean to be fair. There was an arm on the uh, the uh space shuttle Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the alarm goes out to manipulate stuff around, you know, you got to put out satellites and I don't think they ever used it to pick up a gun though. That would have been cool Real mistake on their part missed opportunity by by my estimation. Well, the arm is canadian. So, you know, they're probably There you go. There you go. They're like, sorry Uh, hey, by the way, if you're watching and you haven't hit like yet hit like Uh, we're here talking about snarl, which is a new zine that we've put out is available now You can find the links for everything down below Uh down in that description there Snarl is a will be as the first of our new yearly zines that come out every year in the fall They will bring a new collection of stuff With them in this particular first issue They have it has a new game called tanks for the apocalypse which is post-apocalyptic Tank on tank action for two to ten players fun fast skirmish tank destruction combat has an expansion for rain and hell Called rain and hell that reckoning as you can see on the page here with new philosophy and two new scenarios And it has space station zero new discoveries Which is add-on content for space station zero Which brings new gear and weapons and tech to outfit your crew as you go and explore the space station So there you go. Um, all right So I drop keep keep dropping your questions in if you've got any questions. I think we caught up by the way We actually caught up to the end of the question. So good job us Well done, uh, but if anybody has any more questions keep them rolling otherwise, I think uh, what I want to say here is I think adam it's good to we we've talked a little bit about our sort of process around this, right? And and how we work we mentioned that like basically tom does some of the formal development Obviously, I do some of the initial just like I would call it like development testing primarily testing but I think there might be people out there who are interested in sort of like Diving deeper into sort of game design And so I thought we'd talk about just a minute about the way we work sure And The way we work is I guess I mentioned we start with these guiding principles um It's like, you know, these these simple words sentences But then I want to talk about sort of the primary loop and how I work with you for feedback So the primary loop But before we get in before we do that we come up with a concept That's right You know and and and sometimes it's like, you know, I have a file I have a thing, you know a text file on my phone that I keep track of ideas when I have them and stuff like that And I'm sure you do something along the lines well, but like like Rain and hell was a situation where I was like, hey, I have this idea I want to have a game where demons fight demons and I reached out to you and I was like, hey What do you what do you think and we talked about this pre pandemic And then started building it during the pan the you know, 2020 is really when we kind of started But then and then we launched it and then Space station zero was a role-playing game idea that you'd had for a good long time. That's right Yeah, and so so like that that that general kind of hook of an idea like I I don't think that we would ever sit down and say let's make a game And then start with like the initiative role idea no no no exactly you it's always got to have the the the story and the hook and the thing is is that We also don't go crazy with story and I think that that's also important at least for us there every once in a while I'll pick up like a A skirmish miniature game and there's like 20 pages of floor And I'm like maybe you probably should have just written a novel and then skip the whole game part That might have been a little bit easier. I don't know you wanted to write a story You didn't want to write a game exactly exactly We're like we'll give you two pages with some pictures Of fluff so that you've got a jumping off point and then you get to do the head canon for the rest of what goes on and it's awesome And then we also we want lore to be emergent from the rules from the reason from what's going on like you know a lot of the story is emergent from the nature of the Philosophies and how they work and how they interact with each other and what their rules are Like that tells you more about the world that they occupy We'll be just sitting there and and giving you boring exposition in my mind Story can is meant to be told through Through play through play. Yes, exactly. It's like in a movie The worst thing you can do is just have a character sit around and and just dump exposition right exactly right Well, you remember the time that this happened and then da da da is just like yeah I all that or do you mean like this thing about how I do you know? Yeah, exactly You're the vampires when they came from the old world did this thing? Yeah, they're weak to the sun But you know blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, okay. Got it. Sure. Yeah, okay cool You know whereas like you could just or or Or you could just open at a blood rave in the middle of the meatpacking district And then have all of them like all these vampires just sitting there to techno music and just like as blood rains down on them And they're all super excited and then they all Go completely quiet as a single character in black shows up True and just turns around and starts killing them with obviously silvered weapons And just blows his way through the crowd Original blade Best opening scene still of basically any superhero movie because they did it right no origin no exposition No, I yeah, no, absolutely. I think that that's and the the second and the third one in my mind don't exist But the first one is Just so good Yeah, I exactly and so we don't want to give you page upon page upon page upon page We want to give you You know some kind of simple up fronts you get the general gist and then maybe we're we're giving some Story like when we were talking about the different philosophies and rain and hell We're kind of giving you short little blurbs about what makes this one different from that one and you know outside of stats and stuff But you know beyond that too Um, what once we've got like an idea of what we're doing for a story That's when we kind of start going through and going okay So knowing what we know about we think the story is how should the rules work and like kind of how does that move forward? Yep, absolutely Like that like let the story be an emergent property of the rules So they they tell the story thing there Uncle Mike said is the snarl zina yearly thing on top of the big game or is it one or the other? It will be a yearly thing on top of our big game. So we'll we'll do our big game in the Bring slash early summer. Yeah, exactly. Let's let's call this session It should be coming out in may it probably latest may is the idea We're going to try to not have it come out the day before tmx like we did this last year We're going to maybe have it the week before tmx. So right that'll be the general goal is to come out shortly before tmx We'll say it that way And then the the zine will come out around this time in the fall every year basically So um, that gives me enough time to like work in between there Uh, let's see bill mcgovern said what is the hashtag for posting pics of our new tanks on instagram? It is snarl hashtag snarl 2023 There you go hashtag snarl 2023. There it is Uh, jeff sews. Can you talk a bit about some of the deliberate choices you made with the mechanics of tanks? Uh, sure. Sure. I can Uh, there were many things we decided not to do we mentioned the minigun thing earlier because we just couldn't find a way to Make it work, right? That was an intentional choice um the nature of every Die you allocate to movement every d6 you allocate to movement is a d6 of movement So it's direct like I wanted to one of the mechanical choices was to make it as often as I could make it so the The action dice you were allocating you could pick those things up and then directly use them So like if you allocate four dice to movement, you're going to roll those four d6 to move you pick them up You roll them, right? There's a direct Correlation between the choice you've made and then the effect that occurs from that in in game When you fire the gun the fire the main armor minute costs three dice That's because I wanted to use a 3d6 hit system and bell curve on 3d6 That was a very intentional choice because I like the bell curve that 3d6 supplies The way it groups around 10 the sort of percentage chances as it pushes out towards the tails of 3 and 18 Is really interesting like in how it mathematically works um Like you can do minus one and have it be not that big of a deal But like very quickly the minuses will add up So like it gives you a little bit wider range And if you're say using like a warhammer system where it's a d6 like every every minus or plus one And warhammer is just like the biggest deal in the universe because the difference between hitting on threes and hitting on fours It's just like statistically massive All right, whereas the difference between 10 and 11 isn't actually that statistically different Um, and so you've got more space to play there with with how modifiers can work that kind of thing Not having a solo campaign was was absolutely like or solo functionality to it was a function of it's gotta be 22 pages and fit in this thing, right? Right. Um, keeping the campaign simple and and easy was part of that. Yeah, we had talked about um Making the turret movement Like a thing right, I mean Yeah, yeah, so that so there may be a potential you could be caught in a situation where you can't turn your turd around fast enough To be able to shoot somebody behind you or that kind of thing and that would add more gameplay and more kind of interest and strategy But it would also then add pages. Well, maybe not pages, but a lot more very possibly You know rules that would then be, you know, again We were constantly like we're trying to keep this Within the certain, you know confines Like if you look at a game like like space weirdos that entire game fits in a 16 page zine Basically that that same format, you know, so we were like, all right Well, we're not going probably that small, you know, especially if you want to try to get two other things in here Two little add-ons, but I didn't really want to go to 32 like 28 here because everything's got to be in Fours basically, you know factors of four or whatever multiples of four so um We just it's a situation of we just didn't you know 20 28's good 24 be maybe be a little bit tiny bit better, but 28's I think pretty good honestly and 32 would have maybe be a little too much Yep The and and you know Just a quick note on game design as it relates to this sort of thing If you're if you are someone who wants to do game design, here's the best piece of advice I can give you um Write many games Get an idea and write a game and write those games and and the trick is you limit yourself to one page That's it you have to write a functional game in one page of text Okay, it's really hard And you should do it as many times you can like preferably you do it about a hundred times But you can do it as many times until you're insane or whatever like don't kill yourself But like the point is is that like it will teach you everything you need to know about writing a game if you can start if you like If you can get yourself to be able to write a functional game in one page Right, and it's it's actually very challenging. There's a whole genre of this now that goes around of like these one page games Often that can be like played yourself or meant to be played at parties or whatever and I really do think it's um It's an incredibly good Lesson in in game design to force yourself to be that concise it goes back to the the um The quote right i'm sorry this letter's so long. I didn't have time to make it short. All right, so that kind of thing Okay, uh, let's see how long did it take you From build to done to build and paint your tanks I'll say for me not too long. I mean they were each probably like a day I guess like a day of work. I don't know six eight hours something like that From from build to paint it And you did the world or tanks as well. Yeah Yeah, so the world or tanks go together pretty quick. There are other companies out there That make tanks that are predominantly more resin So let's say like gattis games. There's a if you go to the website if you go to snarling badger.com There is a news section. That's where our kind of blog is and there's a the most recent article There has got a list of different places that you could get 28 millimeter m4 sermons just a bunch of different places online Gattis is one of them and Gattis games like the the majority of the tank is a big chunk of resin So that actually speeds things up quite a bit if you want to go down that road But then like the barrel of the gun is like cuter instead of plastic or resin or whatever You know that kind of stuff, but that that does speed things up the the plastic kits like warlords, you know, you're putting together Several parts just for each track, you know, like maybe one It's like a top and the well, yeah, you got the inside Five parts here five parts here and then this and that and it takes forever But it's still yeah, it's not bad But it's not as quick is just like the turret is one chunk of resin the body is another chunk of resin You put some tracks on the side and there you go. Um, so yeah, it's not particularly quick enough particularly Blow or whatever just take that very long. But then for painting for me. I just I primed it black I airbrushed it like a army green color airbrush paint from our army painter From kind of a zenith all kind of down so you get those little micro shadows underneath and all the little spots But it's not like a total fade, you know, and then It was a lot of washes and then you know some some decals and a little bit of this and all that I'm going to be work. I've got two tanks done. I know vince has got two I want to make a third so that when we get together at vince's place and you know in december And it will be the five of us. It'll be me and vince and sam lens and ninjohn and minniak I want to have five tanks so we can play So i'm going to build a build a third one and i'm going to go kind of ham way that i'm going to go real Real apocalyptic with it. I think it'll be we kind of fun to try out so Yeah, but it's like I said that they build pretty quick much much much quicker than in comparison to most gw type stuff and then Yeah, it's uh, they they paint up pretty quick too. It's fun to paint tanks. I think it's Yeah, yeah, well, especially since they get to do weathering and all that kind of stuff, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah How much does the amount and placement of terrain impact tanks for the apocalypse? Pretty decently it's it matters because cover matters and stuff like that right and and where you can drive and It can slow down your tank and things like that um, so there's a there's like in the when you're generating the The mission or the scenario or whatever like that you generate sort of a semi random amount of terrain It's it's set to a certain degree and then it's random on top of that And it kind of directs you how to set it up and then some of it will become dangerous and some of it will become Uh difficult and things like that Uh, and and you know like properly utilizing the terrain is a big deal Uh, especially as you're as you're playing the game like being able to block line of sight being able to put yourself in a position Of where you have cover against other tanks and stuff like that. It it means a lot Um, so yeah, it's it's the rules are pretty simple for how it interacts, but it's it's simple But impactful is what I would say so Uh, let's see Izzy's issue says I'm glad turret facing didn't make that final cut. Yeah, it ultimately wasn't right for it Uh, there you go. Um, Chris H. How many playtesting sessions revisions? Did you do? Uh, I mean tom play tested for a month. So like and and that's you know, semi-daily testing basically Um of doing different things. We honestly didn't have to adjust that much This one did not have a lot of huge iterations There was a lot of number massaging. Sure But I mean that's that's that's standard, but there wasn't anything like oh, this mechanic doesn't work Because it's again when you've got one vehicle and they have are relatively limited on what they do and it's kind of a smaller shorter game like A lot of authors will tell you if you want to start writing start writing short stories because it's easier to get done And iterate and go okay. Well, that didn't work and then do the next thing But it's also just easier to like you just go through and edit when you're doing that versus a you know Whatever 80,000 word novel or whatever and this is the same type of thing with a smaller game So this can not only be you know, it's not even it's not only just like less for me to lay out Less type setting and less all that stuff But it's also less design stuff when there's just you don't have to worry about the turret movement And then testing that and you don't have to worry about oh all of this and that you know All that kind of stuff limits the amount of testing you need to do to some degree as well or the iteration But yeah, a lot of what Like you know a lot of what tom does basically is the is the play testing But then also just going through mathematically as a developer This is the see I I never knew like a game designer I'm like, okay, this person who designed the games and I'm like I I'm familiar with the word developer from like the it You know kind of world But I when when vince was first telling me like no the developer's job is basically to go through and mathematically Try to break the game as much as possible and look for all the the problem areas that people will exploit later And then so we can fix those problems That's astoundingly useful And also having that person not be one of us Because we at you know messing with it I can do the basic testing to say like does this functionally work Right, but that's what I'm doing It comes down to a point of a forest for the trees kind of situation I think I've told the story before the first game that I that I uh were designed with a friend of mine You know, we got basically everything all together and we're like, okay cool And then we got some friends of ours We're like we're going to just hand this to them and then they're going to go down the hall We were in the dorms in in college and they're going to like play it and then come back and tell us what they think about it And they were back in like two minutes And we were like what's going on and they're like there's nothing in here How about how to start the game and there's nothing in here about how to end slash win the game Like we had all the other parts the initiative and combat We did not because we were just like well We know how to start the game obviously and we just never realized that we'd never put it down on paper So you get to that point where you're like Well, obviously this works because I've been messing with it messing with it messing with it And then you hand it off to somebody else who's never messed with it and then they go Here's a problem or here's a loophole there. Here's a you know Uh a gap in the armor where and all of a sudden now a person can make a tank that can never lose or whatever Right, so then we have to fix all that stuff exactly Uh, all right, let's see Um hobbit monger, what would the carpet be like at snarl con? Well, first of all, it's not snarl con. It's Uh, it's tmx, which is adam's annual convention every year and what is the carpet like in the in the room there? I'm trying to remember. It's like a blue thing. I think it's like blue, right? Like a navy blue Well, is there a carpet in there? I don't well. I think there's some carpet There was definitely carpet out in the hall because this year at tmx the um There was that leak We got there on saturday morning and they were like mopping everywhere because there was some sort of leak A pipe broken a ceiling not luckily in our room, but the room across the hall and it was making a mess Um, otherwise, I think it's tile and stuff like that. I don't know. I would like to see checkerboard Just plain old good old fashion just black and white checkerboard classic a classic classic indeed. Absolutely Uh, let's see zack k said, how do I become successful without failing a bunch first though? Hmm that is much harder It's tough. Yeah, uh be an impresario. I suppose uh sort of a You know moats art from the movie moats art or whatever or amadeus. Sorry From amadeus, you know where you can just like first time nail it. I suppose But for for for all of us normal humans, you just got to fail a lot until you learn Yeah, and I also tell people too When people ask like I want to get into game design and I want to you know start producing games and things like that What's like, you know, what's some advice or whatever? I always tell people Before you even start cranking out games start building start building a following like that's Going to be really important if you want to sell something eventually You know if you just want to make some cool games and have fun with your friends and stuff like that Then that's perfect because you can just come up with new games and iterate and then like well, this is dumb We don't like this. We're gonna try this new thing now or whatever and just go back and forth And your learning is you're going and it's a lot like vince said about just crank out a bunch of different games but You could do that you could crank out a whole bunch of different games for a good long time spend years and find something That really works well and you've really are happy with it And now how do you get people to see it? That's like that's the hard like game publishing is The publishing part is so easy now The designing and the understanding and all that's hard still don't get me wrong But like it is easier to publish and get something available to people all over the planet More easy to do it now than it's ever been before in the history of the world The problem is that it's a lot of noise Exactly everybody else is doing it too. So in that situation it becomes very difficult for you to Kind of set set yourself out there what vince and I did we cheated by uh spending a decade each Building a youtube channel uh to get people to follow us and stuff like that people who like what we have to say So when we decided to make a thing then we were there's a good chance They might like the thing we make because they like what we post and create and this is another thing we create and it makes sense Um, so it could be YouTube you could be a blog you start writing it could be Instagram it could be all kinds of things but having a following some sort of audience Once you do finally write your thing and go. Hey look, I do this as well And you might be interested that that really helps otherwise Uh being rich would be a great idea too. That's a good idea. Yeah You could spend a bunch of money spend a bunch of money on um On marketing although there's the big joke that goes around game design forms for years and years and years and that is How do you make a small fortune in game design? Start with a big fortune. Yes, that's exactly the case. So And at that point if you've already got a big fortune, which is why bother at that point and just go Yeah, I did on a beach with a dirt daiquiri or wherever Uh liberal hyena asked speaking of space weirdos. Have you tried sword weirdos yet? It's 32 pages by the way adam have you I have not adam did you try sword weirdos yet? I haven't I thought it was 24, but maybe it is 32. I haven't I haven't downloaded it yet No, I I keep meeting two, but I just I love space weirdos too much and I keep making I just actually painted a new guy Uh, and I'm starting a new force for space weirdos, uh, like literally this week And so I also just was going back and going through the rules again and realized that if you play a 125 point game Uh, then you play on a three by three But if you only play a 75 point game you play on a two by two and I have a bunch of like two foot by two foot like plywood boards and two foot by two foot Like um that not the pink insulation foam, but the the green insulation foam. Sure They're already pre-cut too far from right. They're called project boards You get them at lows and so there's a part of me That's just like it'd be really fun to just make a real small little two foot by two foot board to do like battle reports for Uh, you know for space weirdos on it and everything like that because three foot by three foot Then you got to go get extra wood and it's a whole thing But these hey man, I got a bunch of two foot by two foot boards If you want that's how I build all my display boards So you can have any of those so you can see one right there. So there's the big, you know You have the big aircraft carrier. It's right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, yeah No, I got you but yeah, I've already got like I said I bought I think I bought two of the boards and two of the foam things and they're there in the basement So, um, I was originally going to use one because like games like Forbidden Psalm forbidden Psalm last war kill sample process all those games from Kevin Kevin whose last name I can't remember currently at the moment But all those games are also on two foot by two foot Um, I still think it'd be a fun eventually for us to make maybe a two foot by two foot game But I think it would be I don't know it'd be something different But but yeah, but nonetheless, um, that's I have not tried out sword rudders yet Even though I do have plenty of models or also like, you know, like Age of Sigmar stuff that I could easily, you know, bring into those types of games as well. So But yeah, I I'd like to see like what he's added on. I'm assuming I'm gonna say magic, but he's already got psychers in Space weirdos. I don't know. I'm hoping that eventually someday that kasey can come to a convention kasey garski Absolutely games. I want to see him at a depth of count or something like that And it would 100 we love to be lovely to hang out with him Speaking of game designers. Uh, malev is in the chat. Hey malev. How you doing? I hope you're doing well Uh, it's the the uh author creator of Demon ship whereas it's more popularly known by one ninjon ghost boat So obviously uh very like malev is a great example of someone who's uh, like jumped in with both feet and made some really impressive stuff And so yeah, absolutely you have to people should check out demon ship As well as as well as malev's more recent offering as well Moving into the fantasy genre So malev and malev is just an all-around super cool guy All right Terrence said any game design textbooks or reference you find to be particularly inspiring or informative Not really. I don't really like many textbooks on that that sort of thing. Um, I there is a The big game theory Big game theory Is pretty useful that kind of talks about the movement from Sort of primary design into ephemera and stuff like that That I think is pretty useful like those kind of conceptual things A lot of like talks from mark rosewater on game design like his his 20 things About game design from um gdc is is pretty great Like there's a lot of like videos stuff like that But for the most part, I'm not like a I'm I'm more of a tactile kinesthetic learner, I suppose like I got to bang my head against a thing a hundred times and then figure out what works And what doesn't work More than I am like read a textbook and learn something. You know, that's just not how I tend to ingest information That's why I was a philosophy major because you have to read a whole bunch But then you actually just sit around and talk about it, right? And so that's how you actually learn you when you when you have to like parrot the people's arguments and respond to them And stuff like that in a in a class. So that's that's I could I I never liked just going directly from textbook to to knowledge Yeah, no, we I went to school for art So it was very little in the way of textbooks, but a lot in the way of art supplies. So that was Easily as expensive and then basically you just worked on stuff and then you really kind of got um Your grade predominantly came from critique and you would sit around With other people in your class several times during the the the season or during the the semester and then like Basically kind of defend your work can be like well, this is what I was trying to do And this is what I mean all that kind of stuff So also being a good kind of bullshitter also sort of helps to some degree as well in the art world, I guess Yeah Yeah, I always really enjoyed like obviously I was in art for for for all of high school and I I always enjoyed when like it was great because after year one all the rest of the years were just like, okay You've got to do three projects this quarter Mm-hmm like that's it That's the class show up and work on them right just at the end of the quarter You got to show three projects They can be in and like generally what the teacher would do is say this quarter We're doing one of these six mediums So you can work in any of those six mediums you want but you got to have three projects The one that was the one that she always reserved is like working in clay and stuff in sculpture Especially if you had to like fire in the kiln because it was just really annoying You know sure yeah, yeah So but like if you wanted to do like oil paints and pastels and that kind of stuff that was on the table every quarter Right, that's always good And yeah, that was always a more fun class because it was like you just did it by learning and then she would You'd work with with her the whole time or with your get get feedback from everybody else It was a more iterative process Right. I found that to be more rewarding. I think I learned the most about art Probably from my high school art teacher Versus when I went to college that college I learned things too, but I think I learned more through experience Or I learned what not to do or I learned stuff like that or like, you know Like I would learn that uh walking up to the professor and asking questions like well Do you think I should do this or this and then the professor saying we'll try both and see what you like better I meant that I stopped going up and asking questions and that just didn't bother with that anymore And so, uh, you know That was uh, yeah, so I but I did like learn, you know, like Actual techniques and I think that that went like in in high school You know like you're drawing we would get into pencil drawing and he would be like well look like if you draw If you're trying to do shading and you make tiny little kind of circles versus like lines Then it looks more organic and it mean you can kind of blend things a little bit better and stuff like that And all these different things and that stuff is what kind of now Comes into mind when I am teaching people, you know, both of us are teaching people Like how to get into painting and stuff like that and you can talk about the techniques Like people will look at these things and go well, I can't do that and like well a You're right because you just started nobody could do this when they first started Yeah, you don't get bored with this. It's not innate knowledge Exactly and but but also like if you do if you learn how to dry brush now You don't have to paint every single little link on the the chain mail You go brush a brush a brush and then it looks like you did and then that's the technique And those are the things that you actually learned that allow you to get better as you start to going into it But you have to actually learn technique in college. We didn't really learn much in the way of technique But luckily I did get some in high school. So that was good. There you go Um waffles and jurors that diligently working on a youtube channel for a decade is such an unfair head start Yeah, I know. Yeah, we totally yeah And then zack case as I finally understand sisyphus should have monetized his boulder There's a great meme like comic I saw of sisyphus pushing the boulder up the hill And he keeps pushing it and then he instead of instead of the sisyphus myth He opens a gym and has other people push the boulder up for him. I've seen that one too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah That makes sense Um, what is the most satisfying part of building your own game? I mean, there's a very simple answer to this it's just other people playing it and and Like especially in a miniature game when you see people like copying For your game and making up and painting managers for it and talking about the games and stuff that they played I that is the most deeply rewarding thing in the universe, right? I think One of the best parts is like with the discord is that the people that like When we launched rain and hell there were people that were making like Someone made a like a wooden box to keep their reign in hell like the copy in and their miniatures and all the tokens That they'd handmade and it was like inlaid with the not the logo But that icon that's kind of like the the leviathan cross with the crown and all that kind of stuff and like Like that type of thing there's so much further above and beyond or just people like saying I really like the concept on this and I did my own thing here for these miniatures or whatever and sharing that Like being able to kind of inspire people to be creative I think is one of the better things that you can do. So yeah, that's that's really super rewarding Yeah, a hundred percent Uh, all right Cool Um hobbit longer see any potential for an add-on for jumping out of a disabled tank perhaps with an rpg I recall that being a fun if short final last stand in car wars. That's very funny Like a guy getting out and being like, oh gal show you and they're just getting exploded. Yeah, um Maybe that's a fun idea. No doubt about it. Like maybe maybe someday that kind of thing Will show up as a as an add-on in a future in a future and that's certainly the kind of thing. Yes Yeah, I mean it would definitely be something that that would allow you to have a bit more creativity to then Make your post apocalyptic tanker like miniature So when you do have to jump out that that's the person that jumps out and then I mean there could be some fun Kind of uh having that sort of in your I don't want to say literally in your back pocket Because it would get squished but like to have it so that when your tank is in this situation You now get to just play and put out this model that you worked on and yeah, that'd be kind of fun, too Yeah, absolutely Let's see Oh, yes, chris apes that I think miniac mentioned a fair number of game design books a couple episodes go on top Yes, he did miniac is more of a researcher and and like scott is more of a researcher and reader When it comes to this kind of thing like he and I could not be more different when it comes to like how we learn It's so funny when that when when the two of us are together because we are so like diametrically opposite on how we learn things He like has to know everything about a thing before he does it and I'm like I I need to know enough to go to like attempt and then I'll fail Learn what I did wrong and then try again, right and like let's let's go. It's a situation like in music you don't like Decide okay. Well, I'm gonna learn to play the guitar And also start working on my first album. You know what I mean? Like it's it's you know, you're gonna you're gonna learn to To you know play a guitar and then eventually you're gonna try to maybe make your own song After you've learned to play other people's songs and that first song is gonna suck And then maybe the second song will suck just a little bit less and you'll just keep going Until eventually you come up with and you do it long enough and then you have an album And the strange thing I found recently too is that very frequently that first album is really good And then after that like sometimes There's a there's a band. Um, they might be giants and they have a song Called I've got two songs in me and I just wrote the third And and it's it's it's something I see quite frequently Yeah, it's just something that you see very frequently in music is where you like, you know that first album Like that was really their banger and then they made a second album They're like you used up all those ideas the first album and you don't have anymore, right? And so, you know, but in game design it can it can go the other way where like every game can kind of get better Or bigger depending on how you want to do it or potentially even smaller as well And that kind of stuff But trying to like the first game that you've ever designed be the one that you want to get out there and do a big kick starter And sell and stuff like that. That's I think kind of difficulty It's really one of those things where you probably have to keep practicing a guitar for a bit longer Yeah, uh, just a quick aside. I was introduced to they might be giants By tiny tunes Which is oh sure. Yeah, a lot of people were yeah Yeah, because they did that musical episode. They had istanbul and triumph man on it, right? And I was like, I don't know what this band is, but I am deeply into this and I went out and bought flood Like uh, the next week. Uh, well, I didn't I mean I used my I had I had my mom take me to the mall And then I used I used my like money I made from mowing lawns or whatever to go buy flood at the Uh, what did we have? We didn't have like tower records, but you know something like Sam goody or something like that. Yeah, Sam goody Yes, there you go. That's it was yeah None of those words that I just said are still just work Like that sound sounds like I'm saying like I played marbles down at the Down at the soda shop, right? Like that's completely anachronistic Still be in business. That is seems impossible. Yeah, maybe not I know there's there's some place recently that I was like that place is still in business. No kidding. Wow Yeah, I remember they they did They had a video on youtube for birdhouse in my soul Which was like their first ever single and I went down to our local record store and I bought The ep cassette and that had like four or five songs on it or whatever and then and then Sometime after that is when flood came out and then I remember buying that on cd Yes, yes, yeah flood was one of my first cd. I think I bought it on tape first I think I actually bought it on tape first because I had I had a walkman So I'd walk around with the tape on that first. Yeah, nice. Nice. Yeah Uh, by the way liberal hyena said uncle adam is correct. Sword weirdos is 24 pages. So All right, you were right And malev said giving players fertile ground to hobby is so powerful for the game making that accessible is great Only a little bit of our games is actually playing them after all. Yeah, completely agree malev I mean that's like one of the reasons we've talked about why we like Miniatures agnostic games because we want to free people to just like do the hobby they want to do um, it's it's um It's very accessible for people because if they already have models they can just use them So they don't have to go out and buy new models because they're going to be playing a new game But on the other hand It also gives you all that agency to be able to go out and buy new models if you want to because you're like I always wanted to buy those skeletons I got no use for them But now I do because I'm going to use them in this game and that's that's cool or you know space dudes or whatever You're going to buy that's right. You know, that's that that's the thing that I think that is also a very cool thing about Miniature agnostic stuff So yeah, I think a lot of people especially when they come in from the gaming side feel like have a problem painting figures that aren't for something You know what I mean like I'm just going to paint these for nothing and it's like Yeah, I paint things for nothing All the time right because I often paint display figures like you know, yeah Just working on on the thing to work on a thing right because I want to paint it It seems like a fun thing to paint I paint it I'm a painter um But I think for a lot of people that is a mental hurdle And I would say it is for me to be honest Like I like you know painting that that piece that I entered at nova this year was like This is never going on the tabletop because I put them on a plinth. You know what I mean? Like and so I was just like, huh. All right. Well, you know, we'll give this a try so But yeah in general, I think for most people they're painting it to play Um, but I think that some people sometimes are just like I'm going to paint this because eventually I'm going to find something And it depends on the model as well But when you do give them the ability and go, hey, look, we got we need robots and like, you know Weird mutants and stuff like that for the bad guys in space station zero. You'd be like, cool Now I can go use some necrons. I've never it was never planning on running necrons Now I can get some necrons and some such and such or whatever and that's Exactly. It's just open the door to be like, yeah, cool. You like those five things. You've always wanted an excuse You got an excuse, right? That's there. There it is. You're in uh Okay Let's see. Um, do you have any policy on unofficial expansions add-ons? We don't have a policy on it in general like Here's the here's the simple reasonable way to go with that If people want to make homebrew content for any of our games, that's fine. Um, you can we can't Actually legally stop you from doing that. Um However, you can't use any of our markers or trade basically items So like you can't use the official logos for starling badger studios or the titles of the games or stuff like that Um, you can't you like you couldn't use the snarl text you see on the screen You know the snarling badger studios text like because those are things that are as you can see there There's a little tm like those are owned marks Um, and ultimately what we would ask anybody who does that sort of thing to do is just to put in like unofficial content not in any way, you know Related to snarling badger studios or vins or adam or something like that. Like we do have a set text thing We can we can always send people but I mean like if you're interested in it We're not opposed to it people I want there to be a healthy community and homebrewing stuff is is Super cool. Um, I mean like I come from my a lot of my initial game design was me Working on homebrew stuff for games. I love, you know, and so I want people to be able to do that We don't mind that at all It's it's it's honestly like super nice that anyone would ever That I would write a game that people would want to keep iterating on and writing stuff on We just have to do it within the bounds of the that like very lightly legally defensible stuff of like using our trades and marks and all those kinds of things That's all Okay James says I remember saying I'm goody and then laughed yes and chris h says Which the only way I can only read this in the way it's in my head Yeah, which is minimum Yeah That is for like that's all that I hear That's that's they might be giants pretty much in a nutshell. Absolutely. Um, drow gamer says love the zine I didn't see any links to tank kits the team would recommend to use for thanks for the apocalypse Hey adam, would you like to tell him more to look? Well? Yes, if you go to starling badger.com to our website We have a news section which is basically a blog, but we thought news sounded fancier than blog So that's what we called it news or at least why I did um in there the most recent article is Like something like where to find the shermons or something like that and it is an article that has I was at five five or six different links to different places that you could get 28 millimetre sherman tanks Warlord rubicon gaddus games Uh Italeri which I think I'm mispronouncing but there's a bunch of different places then of course also anything You know 3d print or whatever, but yeah, if you go to the starling badger.com website and go up to the news tab The most recent article has got we in which we launched it. We learned this we learned our lesson Uh, so every time we're learning an iterative design. Yeah, exactly. Yeah every time we launch a game At the exact same time we launched the game we launched a blog post that says this is where you can go to get some miniatures that would work well because Even though the game is miniature agnostic and all of our games have been miniature agnostic People are always like yeah, yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah, you can use whatever miniatures you want. That's cool But what miniatures am I supposed to use and so we just we just put up a post and say look Here's the place to go find stuff and then that way we don't have to answer quite as many questions And it helps out, you know for people who are looking for like other people are like, ah awesome I can't wait to go digging around looking for cool miniatures or digging through my my own collection of stuff to find the right miniatures But other people are like, I don't know where to start and so we like to give them a nice jumping off quite Yep, exactly All right, uh, cool. Let's see Uh Stagnus maximus says dioramas are also a great reason to buy those minis just because yeah a hundred percent if you're the uh If you're the uh, if you're somebody who who likes that sort of thing then then there you go, uh, and then Dundee says i'm glad I already own many tanks including sherman's yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah Um, so yeah, I mean if you already have existing tanks you are set. Um, just to go back to this page I was on a little while ago. This is the sort of what you need for the game Which is just 10 six-sided dice three by three play area one suitable tank model for each player If you already have those tanks, you're good to go Um up to six pieces of terrain no smaller than three by three Up to six small tokens or objectives similar to mark objectives. So just like any Thing pennies will work. It's fine And then the tank record sheet which you can download at snarling badger.com At snarling badger.com you'll find which is everything's linked down below in the description of this video You'll find the game as or there's sorry You'll find the zine which I mentioned is eight bucks for the full game of tanks As well as the add-ons for rain and hell and space station zero But you can also find our other games there rain and hell space station zero and majestic 13 You can also find the blog post that adam is referencing as well as downloads for all the games such as the record sheet and so on So there you go And one stop job If you do buy the game itself or sorry if you buy the zine There's also the tank sheets in there as well But we also wanted to put it up on the website just so people wouldn't you know miss it or whatever Exactly All right. Well, we've we've once again we got to the end of the questions and and I think it's about time we draw this to a close Uh, so I'll I'll give a minute if anybody's got any final questions drop those in the chat If you haven't already hit like hey, please do so Do subscribe and all of that stuff. We'll be back to to warhammer content Next week don't worry, but I appreciate everybody coming along on this journey. I hope people are excited I hope people have are picking up snarl or getting some fun games in I'm very much looking forward to We'll probably bring our tanks to adept con and do some some stuff there We'll definitely have tanks and things like that at Tmx yeah tmx. Thank you very much at adam's convention next year in in june and You know, we're going to get back to I'm going to get back to to continuing to write The next game which we're already deep into the work of Very very excited about the next one. I think the next one's going to blow people's heads right off. I'm not even joking And that's in no way. There's nothing in that text I'm not being like sneaky and trying to lead you on to what the what the game is about with those with my Verbiage there. I just really think it's going to be a really really fun game I I I am very very very excited about our next game I don't think it is possible to blow someone's heads off in the game, is it? Not particularly. No, not this moment. No, not that kind of game Not that kind of game But adam anything final you want to say to everybody before we call it a night Uh, just I want to you know, thank people who for checking it out and thank people for coming here Obviously, and uh, it's always cool to see You know pictures and stuff of people's tanks and and people, you know, the Yeah, let's see here teams crews and cabals for the last three games. Yeah, and and all that kind of stuff and Yeah, so it's always it's always fun to see that stuff. It always it makes us happy to see it Absolutely, uh, james trying to he's already trying to ask any hints on the next game Sure, it'll come out About a week or two before tmx Next year so look forward to it in the spring It will have a full-color cover and it will have black and white insides Yes, there will be available in both book form and electronic form Yep, uh, and it will be miniature agnostic Yes, and yes, there you go. Those are the hints you get right now Uh, and other than to say it will be a new game. It won't be it's not based on anything we've done before Yeah, not a sequel or anything like that or a sequel or anything like that And uh, and so there you go Uh, but we'll we'll drop little hints along the way Don't worry. Adam always shares too much when you all when you all when you all show up in is don't think I don't watch back Adam's stream every sunday When you all pressure him for like secrets and all the time Adam's just giving more stuff away than I would Well, I said like uh on my patreon. I think it was last. Yeah, it was last month I accidentally Referred to the zine as snarl at one point right and I think vj morphe caught it I don't know if anybody else did during that patreon stream, but yeah, he did and so Um, yeah, but otherwise, uh, yeah, generally I try not to too much But uh, we we usually vince and I usually try to come up with like Like with um majestic 13 we were telling people near future Uh asymmetrical skirmish, you know, whatever that kind of stuff So people could get a general idea, but it still didn't give away the farm or anything like that And so at some point we'll probably come up with some some some talking points that will will work for that and then you know People will go it's it's a teaser is what it is We're excellent marketers as you can tell Absolutely, it'll be I will say this Uh, jeff sue says it will have Dyson measurements. I bet jeff you have sussed out correctly You've got right to the heart of it. That is incredible prescience. Take her you are correct You are correct. I will also say it's going to be pretty darn metal so with that Uh, thank you all so much for watching as I said hit like hit subscribe do all those things We'll be back here next week. Uh, check out the links down below All the everything's linked down there all the games you can just click right into those to find the site the blog posts All the games remember the things on the eight bucks. So hey easy easy peasy pickup But as always thank you so much for watching I really appreciate it The nicest thing you can ever do is just share this share the game with your friends point people out to It mention it on social media any of that kind of stuff share your work Hashtag snarl 2023 on instagram or apparently that dying website twitter. I guess that still is a thing It's called x no, it's not it's not And uh, no, it's not and uh, otherwise we thank you so much for watching. We really appreciate it as always We'll see you next wednesday