 Fy fawr y cyfnod ac â'r Fyfforddau Y Llywodraeth Cymru, y 14 y ddag 2019. Felly mae'n bwysig mor Daunio Johnson. Gaf i'r Gag yw'r Cynllun o ddis especialmente o dim ddech gan 5 a 6 yn dechrau. Mae'n gweithio bod hefyd. Mae'n gweithio bod hefyd. Gaf i'r Gag yw eich benly fashionig o'r instrument neg reflects o'u gynhyrch o'r argyffinirio rhan o ddYeu sydd. International Agreements EU Exits Scotland Order 2019 SSI 2019 oblique 149. The Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee has considered and reported on the instrument and had no comments on it. I refer members to paper 1, which is a note by the clerk, and invite any questions or comments on the instrument from members. If there are no comments, is the committee agreed that it doesn't wish to make any recommendation in relation to this instrument? We are. Thank you. Agenda item 3 is a report back from a visit of two of our members, Jenny Goruth and myself, to Comarnic Prison. The clerks will provide a detailed report in writing for all members, but we thought that it would be good to give the committee a flavour of what took place during the visit and some of the issues that were discussed. I'll start and then ask Jenny if she's any reflections that she wishes to share. Can I start by saying that this was an extremely worthwhile visit, and I want to thank Michael Guy, who is the prison director, and his team for organising it and for the time that he spent with us. The opening session covered general background, logistical type information and a short discussion. It followed a tour of the prison and the various parts of the prison. The visitor centre, the prison reception area, one of the prison wings and the education centre. To start our tour, our request, we asked to see how the RAPI scan machine worked. It can detect NPS and other drugs that are sent in the mail to prisoners, and this has achieved encouraging results, helping to block these illegal substances getting into the prison. As such, significantly, it helps to reduce not only the harm to the prisoners themselves but also the related incidents of violence that prison staff have to face. During the tour and in our discussion thereafter, the effort that was put into looking after the health and wellbeing of prisoners was evident. This continues at every stage of a prisoner's time and, importantly, thereafter, trying to prepare them for release to find suitable accommodation and employment. However, once again, the problem of third sector groups having to continually apply every year for funding and the related uncertainty about continuity of service and the ability to maintain relationships built up with prisoners was raised. Also raised was the lack of support or education for prisoners in shorter sentences, so, while resources are scarce and time limited, if someone is on a very short sentence, the clear message given to us was that those prisoners could also benefit from support. Finally, we saw for ourselves how important the visitor centre was in maintaining family contact and the Breakfast Club initiative was particularly impressive in helping to maintain a natural relationship at weekends with prisoners and their children. Jenny, do you have anything else that you would like to add? Thank you, convener. Just a few reflections. One of the things that I certainly took from it was the programmes around education that we spoke about. I was quite taken with the fact that we have an idea of where prisoners' educational needs are, but they do not all have to be assessed for the literacy needs and they can opt out of that and more than have to, which tells us something about what is going on perhaps with their own experiences of the education system. They just do not want to engage and I thought that that was quite telling. The second thing that I picked up on was about housing. The housing needs of prisoners when they leave prison and how that is tracked or monitored. I think that there was a bit of confusion there with different people finding different alternatives, and so that pathway from when they leave prison it would be interesting to get a better national picture of what is going on or whether that is localised just to the Kilmarnock area. I do not honestly know. The third thing that they mentioned was how many people are going to prison now. That jail that we visited in Kilmarnock was built in 1999, so it is 20 years old. As they said at the time, it was a prison that was very much built for its day. It is also a private prison. I was quite taken with the fact that pretty much all the staff told us that we are still sending too many people to prison and it does not work. They are lively who depend on the prison working. I thought that that was an interesting point to take away from it. I am certainly going and thinking about that and the Government's policies around presumption against short-term sentences and how does that filter out in reality within our prisons and sentences that are passed down to people being on remand or short-term sentences that they do not necessarily need to be in jail and what are the alternatives that are being considered. Lastly, the family unit that we looked at on the way out, which I was really impressed with, how they help support families in Kilmarnock and prisoners in general and try and break down barriers. It is still, at the end of the day, a prison that is covered with barbed wire, so you are not ever going to get away from that. That is quite an interesting approach to how you engage families in that situation. As I say, we find it really worthwhile and there were so many issues raised that will go into detail when the clerks do their report. Do other members have any comments on what you have heard so far? Just on the point that you made there, Jenny, about the housing, did you get any sense? I find that very interesting because I have heard that at several prisons I have visited. The prisoner comes out and then there is a housing issue. Unless and until that is addressed, you can end up in a downward spiral very quickly. Did you get any sense from your discussions about on whom the responsibility lies for ensuring that the prisoner comes out and is housed? One would have thought that that is not the prisoner's responsibility directly. I do not think that it is the prisoner's responsibility. I think that there was a lot of discussion around about third sector organisations providing help, but that coverage being patched in some places and perhaps being disdointed. I think that there was also confusion around benefits reforms and how that has impacted on what prisoners might be entitled to when they leave prison. It is quite a confusing landscape. If you have just come out of prison, where do you go? Where is your first port of call? I do not think that there was clarity necessarily on who that responsibility fell on, per se, but maybe the convener got more from that. I think that what they did say was that they tried to make sure that no one left the prison on their own and left to their own devices that someone would try to be with them and ensure that they did have accommodation. However, if there is sickness, if there are various things, people will slip through the net and they know that time when they leave the prison. They go all through those prison gates is absolutely crucial. I suppose that that was reinforcing some of the stuff about resources and third sectors having that three-year planning or a longer planning the one-year term to try and make sure that that would always be in place. Just to be clear, I know that you are looking to come in. So it is the third sector that is really looking after that space and that is the bit that needs to be got right then. People working with the prison team within the prison officials, but their remit ends when the people leave prison and then the third sector can continue the through care in which a reform that is. I do not know what is going on, because we were only in Comarnac prison, so I think that it would be important to have a look at other ways of dealing with that. It is maybe not necessarily the case in Perth, for example. I do not know what their situation is. For example, the rapist scan is only in Comarnac prison and it is the only one in Scotland that has it, so it does not mean that what we saw in Comarnac is repeated in the other prisons. Rona. I think that it is a pretty general issue on the cross-party group for women's justice. It is an issue that we are tackling. It is on our agenda. We have a speaker and the name just escapes me. She is from a housing association coming to a future meeting and they deal almost specifically with trying to rehouse women coming out of prison who do not have any specific place to go. It is a problem and I think that the more we highlight it and make people aware of it, it will get better. I can report back after my meeting when that person comes along just to clarify. The clerks can also approach the SPS for a national picture, but John will probably remember Alison McInnes trying to get into legislation this necessity to have accommodation as a prerequisite on somebody leaving prison. John. I thank you and Jenny for your feedback on that. I think that the third sector plays a very valuable role in supporting prisoners, but it should not obviate the obligations, the statutory obligations, which is placed in the local authority regarding housing. I know that, for instance, they were involved in both Highland and Murray in Inverness prison. Jenny's point about the benefits to there and having a fixed address to get, it has become a more involved net riddle to try and solve people coming out all the complications about having a fixed residence. There is a lot of good work going on clearly, but it might appear fragmented. There is a lot of good work going on in many areas. It would be quite good to look back at Alison's amendment, because I am fairly sure that that was passed. It might be in legislation. By the time the clerks report, the very detailed report of what was discussed comes forward, we will have that information. Fulton. I thank you and Jenny for your feedback. I think that it is symptomatic of the use of short-term sentences just now that the stuff that happens. My own experience when I worked in criminal justice was that the kind of talk was that if a prisoner was in some sort of order, perhaps a community payback order that was running concurrently with a short-term prison sentence, they were in a better position because there was statutory support for them. Whereas if somebody is released from prison, I think that what you are talking about there, there is no support in place. There might be an offer of voluntary support, but the person may choose to accept it when they first get out, but their lifestyle and behaviour patterns can kick in again. They might meet relatives at the door, but there might be relationship difficulties there and stuff like that, so it can be a vicious cycle for folk. I think that it is another reason why we should have short-term sentences. Certainly, the release from prison is a critical time, and that was made absolutely clear to us. As I say, a very worthwhile visit and we look forward to the clerks report. Agenda item 4 is feedback from the recent meeting of the Justice Subcommittee in policing. Following the verbal report, there will be an opportunity for brief comments or questions, and I refer members to paper 2, which is a note by Ben Clarke, and invite John to provide that feedback. Thank you, convener. As you say, the committee has a feedback note at paper 2 there. The subcommittee met on 9 May, and we took evidence from Police Scotland and the Scottish Police Authority on their responses to the subcommittee's report on the proposal to introduce cyber chaos for use by front-line officers. Police Scotland informed the subcommittee that they are satisfied that they have the legal basis to introduce the use of cyber chaos based on advice from Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, and a legal opinion that they had sought from Murdo McLeod QC, however, they also agreed that legal clarity would be welcome. The SPA board is to consider a paper on cyber chaos and the legal opinion at its meeting on 22 May. The external reference group and stakeholder group are to consider the draft data protection impact assessments and equality and human right impact assessment, along with other documents on 11 June. Following those meetings, it is Police Scotland's intention to deploy cyber chaos in late summer. The next meeting of the subcommittee will be on Thursday 30 May, when it will take evidence on the Scottish Government's capital funding provisions to Police Scotland and the subcommittee will hear from witnesses representing police officers and staff. We will return to the issue of cyber chaos when we take evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice on our final meeting before summer recess on 13 June, and that session will focus on the Scottish Government's response to the subcommittee's report on cyber chaos. I am very happy to take any questions. Thank you. I think that, as John said, it was a very useful session. I think that we struggled to cover the ground even in the extended session. Obviously, we followed up both with Police Scotland and the SPA with a number of questions, particularly around the legal advice that John referred to. We have come a long way in pushing Police Scotland to a better place on this. There remain questions that require answers. I think that it was telling that both Police Scotland and the chair of the SPA, when they were pressed, acknowledged that much of the legal framework is of an analogue age and is trying to keep pace with the development of technology and the pressures on the police to combat cyber crime. Indeed, other crimes that have a cyber element to it were very well made. Both seem to be encouraging of a review of the legislation in this area to try and fight a framework that is more fit for purpose in terms of the balance that needs to be struck between the combating crime on the one hand and the human rights and other rights that are caught up in this and that have very much been a part of the subcommittee's deliberations, but I certainly found it a very useful session, and I think that the session with the Cabinet Secretary will extend that. I think that there has been substantial progress since we first looked at this issue and we are in a much better place now to cope with what is an ever-moving and changing set of circumstances that the law has to keep up with. Just to add that, I think that they both seem very pleased with the work that the subcommittee had done on it and felt that it was really helpful and constructive to them, and they seem very happy to be co-operating with the subcommittee. Any other comments? That being the case, agenda item five is the discussion of a letter in private from correspondence that we are dealing with from the finance committee, so we now move into private session.