 Hello and welcome to the analyst angle brought to you by the cube. I'm Rob stretch a lead analyst with the cube collective Today we're going to discuss the trends in the data market from a skill set side of things To help break this down. I'm joined by Alex Hutchins co-founder of data works. I So excited about this because Alex and I have been talking through this for almost about a year now and Really looking at it from different sides where I was hiring people in this space he was helping recruit in this space and Data works really works worldwide helping people build out their data teams and he brings a really unique Perspective to why things are the way they are. So I want to welcome Alex and bring you on board here Thanks, Rob. I appreciate you Yeah, welcome you to the show. So yeah excited to be part of this and yeah, I suppose you're right I think it's been about a year of discussions and I think a year of real Real change from that kind of post covid Crazy market where people couldn't hire enough to the kind of point we find ourselves now, which maybe is a bit more normal Now I think versus maybe six or seven months ago. But yeah, that's exciting to speak about this. Yeah, I Again, you know when we were talking, you know briefly before this I think it's been really interesting to see how the market has changed. I mean the last two weeks I was at VMware Explore they had their spring one conference, which from the first time they brought developers to VMware Explorer To kind of bring together some of the ecosystem that they have and then the next week I was at Google Google cloud next which has a very different vibe so, you know more I would say more Director VP level Have projects looking to get things done and it was very interesting to see The people and the skill sets that they were bringing the people that were you know mulling around grabbing chach keys from the different vendors and and doing that and I think you know Actually, it's symptomatic of what's going on But I want to kind of get your read because you know data works works all over Europe in the US and other places And I know just from knowing some of your other customers Where you've been able to hire even in Asia pack and things of that in Asia in nature and the skill sets in the state in general of tech and Recruiting, you know, what are you seeing these days? What's what's been the state of it? Yes, it's a really good point. I think If I'm if I'm honest it's been Confusing I think we got to this time last year and companies are investing companies were hiring. They were obviously those kind of murmurings of Not not everything was okay on the horizon, but then we Companies continued, you know, they continue invest these data and tech teams continue to get fat. They continue to grow And then it was I think kind of December last year. We started to get this feeling, you know There's things things are slowing down here offers were being rescinded Those requisitions were no longer kind of in our pipeline and we thought let's get to grips with what's actually happening here And then obviously January Everyone can think back to then you're kind of waking up early Jan and there's The big players out there, you know, the kind of the fangs as you call them. They were all talking about layoffs I think it was 89 90,000 layoffs announced in January alone So that automatically sent shockwaves across the rest of the kind of sector You then had that kind of trickle down effect over the preceding kind of six and seven months I think there was a tech crunch article that reported there was 225,000 layoffs in tech alone So that obviously created a huge amount of Competition for the kind of vacancies that were left a lot of nervousness and uncertainty in the market and That was across 900 firms, but obviously that is led by the larger players. So It's interesting you're saying that kind of going to the Google next conference is obviously Those larger players now are beginning to make signs and sounds of rehiring I don't think we're gonna see what we saw post COVID But we are beginning to hear of a bit more confidence, but yeah, I think it's Companies didn't really factor in inflation. Obviously paying back the COVID loans, you know, the war in Ukraine political issues AI, you know, all of a sudden these Larger companies thing hang on a minute. We've got to take stock of where we are consumer confidence is low So, yeah, I think it's been a it's been a humbling experience for those recruiters out there I think a lot of those hiring managers are probably taken stock and thought hang on a minute if we had our time again We might have done it differently, but yeah, we're in a Slightly more confident space now but generally tech was Really adversely affected by that slowdown. Yeah, that makes total sense I think like you were saying with the fan group in particular obviously I was at 8 of us for a little bit and some my friends are actually posting jobs now which I Know had gotten they've been trying to hire into those positions Or we're trying they had the wrecks and the last year they got frozen not killed per se At the beginning of the year as the layoffs happen now there seems to be a thought I wouldn't say they're they're all open or coming back the way they were But I think they're also hiring for different skill sets which kind of brings me into, you know Our favorite topic which is you know state of recruiting and data because I think to me it's it's always been interesting I think when I was on in January We talked about data product management and I want to kind of hit on that as well because I think it's a very Interesting thing, but what are you seeing from the state of recruiting in data and data teams? Yeah, you can be right as an area that we're hugely passionate about and having tapped into for about Last 10 12 years, and I think what you saw Early on in the new year was that middle management layer And what I mean the kind of they're not owning the strategy. They're not necessarily hands-on That layer was decimated. You know, there was some cracking Management layer that unfortunately were laid off and actually the focus was really on those kind of more hands-on engineers and those individual contributors I Think what we also saw well in fact what we definitely did see company still invested But they certainly were more hesitant about getting too fat, you know over hiring again There was definitely from the conversations we had and we we work with earlier stage startups and some more established businesses Who are re-platforming bringing in maybe the new modern data tools? So we've got a pretty good view of You know who's hiring and who's firing and actually a lot of the conversations AI, you know Became very evident a lot of companies are gonna invest in that and they were looking at what they could automate And who ultimately they could potentially replace we saw this impact the analyst layer You obviously had data science, which was I think seven eight years ago was the most highly Regarded and most in-demand Position with analytics at that point and now unless you have deep domain knowledge within a respective discipline or an industry understanding They are they are really struggling now and that's not through want of trying or their education or their investment in the PhDs And the masters that's just down to the fat companies are looking at that kind of that mid to lead level hands-on strong programming experience I think what it has been encouraging Salaries have remained steady, you know, 2021, you know, the people were jumping in in 2025 percent 30 percent in some cases uplifting comp But now people are moving like for life But what we've not seen certainly in data and AI products certainly in those Analytics and data engineering domain and ML and ML ops those salaries have have remained quite steady So I think that's takes some confidence from that And I suppose to close that part off candidates with those kind of latest tech tools modern data tools on that kind of analytics and data engineering piece are still in demand We've seen a big push towards the Infrastructure led data roles the data ops is becoming a thing ML ops is is hugely in demand So yeah, it's been a real I think it's been a realignment Companies and teams got too big their analytics and data teams got too fat But now companies have taken stock and think hang on a minute. Do we need to re-engineer? Is that could we do with one and bring some cool automation in here? Are they being impacted by the return to office? I mean, we're seeing it here that it's it's it's a real it's very interesting challenge people have you know disperse themselves I know one it really good Cloud architect for instance, and they do data architecture as well who's in northern New Hampshire which you know again, that's The company he was talking to actually has an office in New Hampshire But it's a two-hour drive in and he's the requirement was a week a month What what are you seeing from the the new hybrid as well? It's back, you know hybrid roles are back. We're fortunate We have the view of our European business as well And you can look we have a French business and not many more countries or kind of Spaces are more rigid in terms of their work pattern then the for the French and equally They've now begun to open up their opportunities or did have you know post COVID this kind of hybrids Kind of model, but then a lot of those companies were expecting people to come back to office But they've remained hybrid now and in the US that was typically a very kind of remote friendly Country if you're an earlier-stage business, you're looking to build a culture. You're looking to really Integrate everyone into that your ethos hybrid is back. They're centered around those major cities Boston, New York Your Denver, Miami's obviously gathered some momentum recently and I think that has You know, there's a compensation element to this as well where people will be expecting slightly more money because obviously that will involve some Travel that will involve them giving up their home office. So it's definitely back It's fun isn't I think you also know you work to Amazon as well You've got these companies were making these noises about return to office There's been a lot of press around what was the motivation for that was that to kind of clean the deck slightly and then go again Or actually are we in a position where these companies generally want you to come back into the office? It's an interesting point, but I think hybrid is back fully on site I don't think we'll ever come back but hybrid definitely is yeah I mean, I'm hearing that and again having friends over at Amazon. I was talking to one where He is down in San Francisco But his office that he's attached to is in Seattle and they're like, hey If you want to remain here, you got to come to Seattle and it's not a commute thing It's a we expect you in the office Every every week all full-time. So I think I think it's gonna get more interesting before Before it normalizes because I think there's still gonna be blowback Definitely and 100% and I think on that point Bob. I think is But in COVID people were displaced, you know people They they left the expensive cities, you know, the San Francisco is that the more expensive places to go to the cheaper destinations to to kind of Maybe assume a slightly different lifestyle to what they previously had and I think it'd be wrong of Companies to now expect everyone to give that up to then give that up and return back to what we used to have because let's be frank Not a lot of people are really happy with coming in every single day to an office So it'd be interesting to see where this lands though There will be those companies that will sweep up by saying fully remote high comp amazing benefits But a lot of candidates as well. I think it's worth saying they They want to come into a hybrid Offices that I say the majority are depending where they are on that journey in their life They are they are keen to see people I agree. I couldn't agree more and so let's kind of you know What are customers telling us about? You know this and and how the market is because I think it's been very telling and you're seeing one side of it I'm seeing another side of it and I think again. It's a very interesting I think dichotomy of what's going on within the market because if you for instance, if you look for product product managers on LinkedIn Just in the US. There's over a hundred and eleven thousand openings on LinkedIn right now for product managers You said if you then Skill that back to I want data product managers. There's 37 in the US Which to me is like actually mind-blowing based on what I think people need in their Organizations when they're dealing with this data, but what are you hearing from customers and about the market in general? Yes, it's a really good point I think As I alluded to at the top of this they The amount of redundancies and sheer scale of people that will let go and the quality of talent That was ultimately let go led to a huge amount of competition for far viewer fewer vacancies That coupled with 60,000 talent acquisition professionals who were laid off in the first six months of this year That's created this kind of funnel effect And a real bottleneck for people being a Considered for vacancies moving through a process I think an average Processed last year should take 28 days from resume submission to offer and this year today is nearly double that so it kind of shows you below Moving beasts that these companies have become irrespective of size So I think you're on two sides your companies who are not struggling to hire They've got a great brand there, you know, they have a slick operation where it comes to recruitment and they are not struggling on the other hand You've got those Companies have so many applications who are not not ideally suited. They're creating a court of pork and experience So that's the ones that are hiring. I think on the flip side of that You've had that real kind of panic stations the shutters pulled down. We're not looking to hire We're gonna just you make do with what we've got create more work for the team We have and really see where this runway from a cash perspective Kind of sees us and I think that's a good point on on the VC stuff. We've had this Record VC investment years post COVID you've now got high levels of VC activity in terms of the AI piece and on your point about AI and Data products. I think that is a really that is an area seen tremendous appetite to hire But people are still trying to find what that looks like and how that ultimately brings bottom line value I think where we are today Companies are beginning to say we need to fire. We need to evolve. We need to We need to grow. We need to innovate. So those companies are beginning to hire. However There's a real nervousness about over hiring making layoffs. I think Asked me three months ago. It really was You know a bit doom and gloom and everyone seemed quite down on their luck But today after the week we've seen it's really picked up Yeah, no, I think we we're seeing a similar thing is that it's picked up But it's also picked up for specific skill sets as well And it's it's not necessarily the skill sets people were hiring for what are some of the skill sets you're seeing That are in demand Yeah, so machine learning engineers And what we've seen is is is very strong Experience which is very niche at the moment in fine-tuning those LLMs. I know you Hugely passionate and knowledgeable about that space. I don't pretend to know exactly what they do I I can certainly say those companies who are bringing those models internally trying to make them Fit for their purpose. They are now on the hunt for those engineers with experience of fine-tuning those models And that is niche. Yeah, that ultimately leads to an increase in compensation increase in demand You've also got that real switch from 45 years ago. We want a data scientist to actually we want a deep Domain expert with an LP. We need some with computer vision. We need someone very strong in AI So that data science function has now become The substrates of that has become more specialist And beyond that on the common classic data engineering side Analytics engineers, they're still in demand. I think With automation self-service and some of the tooling that's been released They've you know, they don't need as big a teams, but they definitely need people to deploy, you know dbt some with deep cloud experience and I suppose That I mentioned earlier about that kind of infrastructure led data dev ops We've seen data ops has been a new kind of phrase that's been coined ML ops engineers so people with very strong kind of cube flow the ML flow piece and obviously the AI product piece as I mentioned definitely For companies earlier on in their journey Startups, I think who wants someone to own a product roadmap generally understands data AI Those roles are in demand And as long as they got their domain knowledge with hands-on skills, they will be hired And I think the most in demand are software engineers with that full stack experience. So With that data piece of data dev basically data developers some of that understands The business understands building products from the ground up So they're the main ones. I think that's where we've seen a lot of appetite For those type of people Yeah, and I think we're seeing a very similar where it's we kind of I don't know if we coined the term But we've been using the term data developer For a while and I think a big piece of it is that, you know that full stack engineer The ones that have to deal with data deal with airflow and all of the other stack that go, you know, kubernetes and ML flow and kube flow and they're trying to figure out. How do we build that right data platform? Or do we buy the data platform? Do we integrate with data bricks or snowflake or big query? What what you know, what does that look like? Are super in demand like but to your point earlier point there's it's do more with less So I want those people to be able to do not only some of the dev ops or platform engineering But I want them to also be able to do some of the data, which is not necessarily the same data The skill sets. So I think it's gonna the market is Uh, gonna be horribly disappointed when they hire somebody they think can do everything because You know master of all, you know, uh, you know or master of none But expert in all or whatever that saying is it just doesn't work out So you're completely right and I think if we think back to You'd have those very siloed bi teams you'd have the bi analyst the data analyst you have the data engineer You'd have the and actually what you're seeing now and this has been happening for a couple of years now Those roles have become emerging. I think that's courtesy of analytics engineering and fishtown with dbt I think that has created that siloed area and that's basically moved data engineering to more of that Infrastructure led the kubernetes the kind of the orchestration piece the the containerization piece and that's where we've seen that and data ops is now data and dev ops is still You know if you're dev ops engineer With a strong modern data backgrounds strong tooling you you are not going to struggle to find work And I think that's now Tipped over into the ml piece with ml ops. So yeah, it's an interesting space and yeah, it just boils down to How big these teams will get versus what we probably were used to them in the past So so let's let's bring it home here and uh do some kind of crystal ball Where do you think things go with the market from here for the rest of the year and into 24? More confidence definitely more confidence towards the end of this year running through the fall I think till Thanksgiving 2024 budgets are obviously Already being put in place now and all the signs are They are going to hire they are going to grow. We are definitely and we've already seen it a consolidation of those I suppose less intricate data roles not taking away What insight analysts bi analysts and data analysts ultimately do But automation uh and ai is going to see those roles displaced And obviously ai is going to be front and center from all these conversations Companies bringing in llms. How are they incorporating? Almost like ai is a service into their own business VC activity, I think we'll continue to Gather momentum. I think they're going to be more Measured in terms of what they're investing in we've I think we talked a while back about Some of the money that's being exchanged for companies that you scratch your head slightly thinking Have they overpaid or have they got a steal here? And I think You're going to see New companies coming in and I think you're going to see some companies quietly Going away because I think their run rate their product won't match up Well, it's been exciting. You know, I say this to everyone I speak to yes It's been a humbling year for those in recruitment A lot of people have been put out of work through no fault of their own, but I think it's made us Lena it's made us more You know more In tune with how to scale again rather than just as hard as many people as we can and let's just hope they work Yeah, no, I I agree and I think to your point with the vcs I I'm seeing the activity For new funding seed round type funding starting to pick up. I think it's still been A lot slower than I expected for this year given that, you know, usually in a down economy It's a great time to start something new That the larger companies are taking down rounds because the valuations did you know, as we talked about previously The valuations just got crazy and having looked at a lot of that and gone You know even seen it from the outside when I've Evaluated and advised companies. I'm like your value. Why would you take evaluation like that? It's just gonna need to disappoint and I think it's a good time to take A smaller valuation and build upon that and build the real business and I think that's a that's a big piece of it Um, but you know again in the last second here, you know, where can they find more about data works? And how do they get in touch with you? Yeah, awesome. We we're really active on linkedin. We've obviously got a Website with all the details. We're hosts of a podcast as well. So, uh, we can obviously tag some Notes in the comments for this show, but yeah, we're pretty active I say we work across the europe, uk and I myself focused on the north american space We're pretty active at events round tables. So yeah, you'll be able to find us Yeah, yeah that round table that we did that you invited me to down in new york was awesome Like so anybody out there gets an invite to one of the round tables Go because it's it's no bs all data all the time and some really smart people around the table Which was fantastic So hey Alex again, thank you for joining me. I really appreciate you being on And you know, it's always fun to to talk data and talk, you know, where is the market going for the skill sets? I really appreciate it Yeah, likewise robada. I enjoy myself. Thanks very much for the invite And thank you to all of you for watching the analyst angle powered by the cube. I really appreciate you Fitting here and listening to this. Hopefully you caught something new and learned something out of this We're going to continue to bring, you know, my friends and colleagues and former colleagues and others on to the analyst angle to really Extract the signal from the noise of what's going on and help point you in the right direction So hopefully you got something out of this and some of the research that we're doing. We'll be back I really appreciate it and thanks for joining