 Welcome, everybody, back here to Segal Talks at the Martini Segal Theater Center, the great Graduate Center CUNY in Midtown Manhattan in the heart of New York City and Midtown that is actually very deserted at the moment, all shops are closed, our university is closed. Even so, we have made so much progress as vaccinations this life here seems so very, very different, still no real performances in New York City besides initiatives from some companies and institutions. It's uncertain what will happen, where we are in, where it all will be going and we all wonder what happens even if all of America is vaccinated, the rest of the world isn't. What does it mean for us, for the arts, for the global international exchange that's so important, like musicians listening to world music, performing arts, also need to know what is happening and it's been vital, important, and it changed us, also changed our colleagues, and we are in a moment where we are rethinking everything, everything has changed, and with us today we have a great artist, the great global theater artist, someone who we look up to, who has inspired us and who has a body of work that is most impressive. Milati Suryodharmo from Indonesia is with us and she also is living part-time or most of the time in Europe, in Germany, and has been, how would one say, a fixed or important piece of the landscape of performance, also solo performances, bi-women, female performances in a tradition in a way, Yoko Ono, who came out in Abramovich, she worked and others. Let me tell you a little bit about her, she graduated from school and not as we think, right away, performance art or acting or directing, she graduated in international relations and political studies. Interesting, but also what we talk about here, at the University and she then started studying art at the school for the arts in Braunschweig, in Germany, and specialized in performance art and practice is informed by Buto, Japanese of course, as we know, traditional beautiful art after World War II, when Japanese artists rejected traditional Japanese art, but also rejected western art that brought also so much destruction and they created a new art form that now is also a traditional one almost, and this is the great way of Japanese theater that these forms coexist and form each other and they are just very interested in the burnt skins of the victims of Hiroshima, our moral region, it came out very far away from the center, they created something completely new and that inspired her and she also did cultural studies and studied history and her work is a research on movements of the body into the relation to the world by the movement on stage and it's durational often, the long performances, one of them is 12 hours where she stands on charcoal, one famous butter dance, she's in high heels and moves to the drums and and fails and falls and gets up, it's about getting up, she says, and so these are also a trend in photography and they are choreographed dances and in videos which we also can see actually on YouTube, she, and this is also of such significant importance especially to us, she also is a curator, a cultural organizer, she has been working there as director of studio Pleasant Gany, if I say it right, it's an artist space and also run by artists and there she curates a program in the performance art laboratory and it's called Undisclosed Territory, a performance art festival, she created this dense library project and these are art education programs and also with the environment in the sense and her work has presented truly all over the world, here in the Armory and the Asia Society which has supported her in the Creative Common Ground Initiative, I think Rachel Cooper who happened to be yesterday together with Bun Hoitane invited her with the If We Were XYZ performance and so she has been really in sale in Helsinki, there in Australia, in Undisclosed Antwerp, Canberra, Singapore, Kunstwerk, Berlin and so many places they have built a theater where she started her that kind of iconic butter dance that is and a great piece of performance art, I think everybody should look at it, most probably everybody already has, so Milati as I always say, this is all about listening and then I start talking and talking and talking and people say when is this guy finally shutting up but I am now and first of all thank you for coming, Trima and Gershki if I say that right, thank you for being with us and where are you at the moment? Hi Frank, thank you for getting me here in the program, I'm very honored to be here with you this noon I suppose now in New York, now I'm in Solo, it's my hometown, a town where I was born, it's in Central Java and on a Java island I've been here, I've been moving here actually since officially 2015 because I also now doing a postgraduate program, I'm like doing my PhD here at the art school in Indonesia, so at the same time since 2012 I was thinking like okay, I think it's time to go back to Indonesia and do something from my hometown and I opened my studio, I rent an empty house, Renovate but this house was like left by the owner and was empty for more than 15 years so I found this house in the middle of jungle almost like a jungle and so I rented for cheap and although now the rent is getting up but I was thinking okay, I want to slowly try to do something here and do the community to do with my artist colleagues here in Solo and also to be close to my father who was who's passed away already in 2019, December 2019 just before the coronavirus spreading in Java and yeah so I'm in Solo, I'm very happy to be here, I'm very, how do you say, really I felt like okay, finally I'm back to society because I've been living in Germany for 20 years and I thought I'm a bit exhausted also for you know like everything there, I'm quite not lonely but everything I must do by myself and it's not easy to, at the end it was like very difficult for me to survive collectively and the environment I thought I want to do more for the people and there I felt a little bit difficult to do more with the society so like it's good place to be an artist, to be a professional artist, everything is structured and so on but that's for me it wasn't enough, I need to do something for the society, I need to be with people, with young people, with children and to be closer with the environment of creating environment of art so Solo is one of, is also famous with the place where many very good artists, international artists also like Rahayu Supanga is coming from Solo, Tardo Novekusumo, maybe you have known his name also from Solo and also from Solo, so we have a long story of artists residing in Solo or born in Solo and the art school here is also very good the Isisura Pata where now I'm doing my PhD and so I felt like you know I feel like not only home because of my hometown but I also feel like okay I'm surrounded by people I know since I was a child so and they're all mostly and they're mostly artists, mostly dancers and traditional musicians, yeah I felt like the last five to six to five years I felt like really fulfilled in terms of like getting inspired from my own culture and not just seeing it as like as a foreigner making research on the foreign culture but like I did maybe like around 10 years ago or 15 years ago and now I felt like okay I'm part of it I'm part of it and I want to discover something more that is with the eyes of the local and and so of course the way I think the way I structure my thinking also is influenced by the western because I studied art in Germany I lived in Germany for many years and but now I felt like I've kind of finding something how to look at my own culture you know like with with more broadened perspective and yeah that that is a blessing I think yeah I thought you know in 2007 actually I have been here to create I thought okay performance art was not very well known performance art appeared in Indonesia as as a way of protest like political protests or more like in a form of a protest art it's only to criticize the the social situation or the political situation especially during the so hard of time my Indonesian senior like FX Harsono, Rahmani, Eridono, they've been all done and Tisna Sanjaya maybe these names are quite familiar if you look at Indonesian visual artists they are they've been doing performance during the 80s early 90s to do a kind of a protest in public spaces against the regime of Suharto in the new order time and I thought after the new order collapsed and then the new like the after 1998 Indonesia has changed and I thought wow maybe it's about time to go back home and and present my performance and then I got an opportunity to be invited by the Goethe Institutes to perform my Bata Dance was my first ever performance I did in 2006 in Indonesia so Bata Dance I did many countries before and and 2006 I got the opportunity to perform it in the Goethe Institute in the Goethe House in Jakarta and it was maybe it was like a big shock because I got the big report about a review on the newspaper after that for me also an important point that I went to Jogja I was invited by the Chamati Art House in Jakarta who gave the opportunity for me to make a solo exhibition that was my first solo exhibition in Indonesia that was like for me like wow I was very happy I was still like even maybe I have my own culture shock in my own country yeah I have the homecoming it took the Goethe Institute from Germany to to have your first show now I think it's almost midnight where you are how how how do you experience the time of corona how where were you when they started how is it at the moment um now at the moment when I I went out sometimes I have to go to the university um I saw the street is totally crowded people like already sitting around in cafes restaurants market is super crowded malls are crowded visited by people and the school started to in shift like some uh class in the morning some class in the afternoon and the art university also like not all lectures uh happening on site but those because they are dancers they did not go to university already for one year and so I think they missed also moving so after the vaccine came I started arriving in Indonesia although not everyone already received the vaccine and yeah the school is being active again activated again students already uh start dancing doing uh activity physical activities and and meeting at the school I'm a little bit worried everyone is still of course some people believe don't believe that there is uh corona and some people of course like like including Mila is still very careful to be in the public space but in the other side me as an artist like I had my solo exhibition a big one at the museum in Jakarta where live performances uh was were planned to be redo redone and yes yes and I thought I was like thinking okay after two weeks and then Indonesia started lockdown I thought oh what a pity but there is nothing I can do and then after that one by one all the programs that should happen in 2020 and now in 2021 either postponed for the undefined time or schedule or yeah postponed or replace it into an online project like I think many artists are doing this yeah but since I've been traveling too much maybe or a lot sometimes like every month I left my studio for more than one week or two weeks and sometimes one month or two months so uh this time like I was like okay um now I'm ready to stay at home for maybe at least one year so I I started to make programs and also to um although we have regular uh programs already many many years but this time I put more programs that means like with limited capacity of people coming here because we have around 5000 meters where outdoor space that means it would be a good place to do something outdoor with distance with mask and you know with all these procedures of of hygienic uh procedure and so um we have been working with children already several years now but we open since the pandemic we open a new program for children like painting and outdoor painting with models for public and painting for children now we have twice a week um we have one teacher she is teaching the children from the from the what is it district or from the village actually because I was to do this in the village and I think because they did not go to school and sometimes they come here also to attend their online school uh their virtual class to use our wi-fi and so everything happened outdoors so I think it's a blessing that we we have this this space that is open so that people and children can come here and and do some activities uh outdoor with with enough distance and I think um I think um then I thought um it's it's very important time this moment this this pandemic time is for me and I think for my friends here it's very important to be more with a local situation because sometimes I thought you know I've been traveling abroad a lot or to Jakarta I've been connected more with Jakarta people and Singapore people but then I thought okay what is happening around the nearest area uh from my home and so um um I thought it's also important to be like in this pandemic because many performing artists like musicians and actors um dancers they they don't have jobs of course they cannot perform and it's not like me that I can still teach I was I start teaching also at the university in in Singapore at the now Fox Singapore but I'm one of those who who is still lucky get you know like get some jobs but um many of my friends they cannot so we try to somehow to communicate to help each other and we try somehow to care I think the word care is very important in this time and and somehow also it's not art is not about um creating artwork only art is also who have a good social to maintain a social environment with the people who have the same agency yeah I think um for me that that's an important thing that I've been pursuing like how art is not trapped in to only uh production activity how art functioning also for our daily life social life for our well-being and um it's functioning like like in the in the traditional uh idea of making art is also like to activate the function of how for example like if you uh if you watch Indonesian traditional art they mostly either coming from the palace of course but or uh those which are attached to certain ceremony uh that is for like harvest or for birth or wedding or even you know like if someone pass away there are two ceremonies involve a certain uh ritual process that involves also art like dance music or you know like using objects in the ceremony and um there is a drama to a key there is there is something that is um but functioning and and I think um learning from that uh I thought oh this is a good time for for me at least to think about about healing like I never thought about healing with art sometimes I talk with my professor I'm drama witch because there's like uh if we feel like we are sick in our life then we should heal with our by making art but I thought oh I think art can be functioning as a way to to heal society so if our society is sick um I'm not I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm to say that it's our it's quite subjective uh I think opinion but in some kind yes some kind you're dealing you know even in this pandemic time there are still corruption there are still corruption by ministry by minister uh for for the budget that should be received by people and and and I think um that that's that's a disease that's a very that's worse than corona and I think uh if art can somehow make people more aware with this with kindness and and also with the pain of mankind our mankind I think um then in certain thing art is functioning for the people so why I'm also choosing the practice of performance art because it it's always dealing with the risk of between you know the um the terms of art must be beautiful art is beautiful or you know like the conventional um impressions on art but I think I was like okay I have more freedom using um like practicing performance art I have more freedom how to to share uh kind of a language that is maybe very personal or very frontal without a certain um how do you say um a structured uh message so there is there is an opportunity for me and for the public and for the public to to create to complete we both can complete the moment the happening at the same time and the same space and that is for me very uh valuable so I thought also this experience I wanted to share with younger people and so during the pandemic I opened a private class and um for the dance students uh from from the art school who did not go to school because my indoor studio can or with distant can um can again host seven to eight students and so since July last year intensively I give them class with material not only dance not only about choreography also uh okay dancers should also probably know about history about Buddha about Dada about uh yeah um you know like the history of art in the west but also history of art from Asia and we discuss a lot and we watch film experimental films and then we discuss and and I think uh I hope I but I think so they they they have more um open-minded now that that making dance is not just it's not only about completing or fulfilling uh the vocabulary of movement and and choreography but also some some thinking or some idea or some thoughts to be um shared to the public that's what I thought but we learned here um my students they learned cooking also we cleaned together the studio we uh garden uh since the pandemic we plant like bitter gourd chilies and vegetables tomatoes and and so we care also more about okay healthy living um about uh okay let's try how does it taste to have our own plans and waiting for the for them growing and watching them and you know and then and cook them and eat them together and and I think uh you know even like cassava leaves we can eat here and uh with a very nice um what is it I love cooking also so I also asked my student okay to learn cooking and to serve friends by their own cooking you know like we serve each other we clean the kitchen together so I learned this also from my Japanese colleagues also like in Germany uh so we we we also care we learn to take care of our own life by doing our very simple daily life and hear any young people they don't learn because um many reasons many reasons they don't they don't learn how to take care their own living and and I thought okay so it's a good time to learn cooking and to learn like sharing sharing food sharing or serving people yeah I mean this is it is just stunning um um what you what you are sharing with us and I would like to remind everyone um Melati is a famous a significant artist not only in Indonesia worldwide um Jeanette so yeah Moko who who told us you know you have to have Melati on it um also um you know who looks up to her and um and so for an artist of her stature to say I go back to my home I go back to my village to my town in a way it would be as if Marina Bramovic said I'm going to go back to former Yugoslavia to a town where I came from and I stay there I created dance school I care about the girls and the village we cook together you know we heal we we create um doing art is a social practice and it needs a community something she said I missed uh in Germany and I would like to remember everyone yes she was at the Apple Theater at the the single at the Armory like as big as it gets so this is a a decision she made as an artist as Menray the great American artist you know who started out as a painter said I can't do painting anymore I can't he did beautiful landscapes I can't it is not right for our time and of course you moved into you know these photography the manipulations and also then abstract painting um Melati um I would like to know from you why do you think at the time now this is more important work of artists stand for something much bigger it's a model that's why theater performance it's a model for something out there we can look it up and it inspires us and use that I'm going to move the center of my artistic activity towards that um why do you feel that this is the most it's more significant to do a dance class with eight kids uh or cook with them and watch vegetable grow than being at the Armory in New York there's misunderstanding so the students who the eight dancers they are a university student okay but I also know you had you did dancers for kids for girls in the military yeah yeah yeah yeah also dance there are dance classes for the kids and so yeah no I think um because we tend to get lost also uh in the pandemic time it you know like it's maybe I don't know I received this as a message from the nature from the bigger um I did say uh understanding of nature uh that maybe it's a good time to stay at home in the beginning and then and then because like people like me like very exhausted uh from traveling also and making art and so on um I'm still doing I'm still doing art I'm still creating things but not as intensive as before so for my time actually maybe like 75 percent were more spent for for giving for for spending time with my students and my studio activities but I think for some people who work from morning to night and then suddenly they have to stay at home in a small house and with the two kids well more kids in a small house and with the wife with the husband with all the domestic life that they are probably also uh foreign from because of their routine normally they will have jobs or whatever but when they come back home it's it's also a difficult uh transition difficult and this transition time I think is very um very significant and fragile and so what we need is to strengthen the soul and our soul is somehow it's very far away if you are living in the cosmopolitan way of life or in the in the town in the routine of the modern life and then suddenly you have to be home and then you realize oh it's just these four four walls and one roof and very narrow and there is straight in front of our house and there is a crowded noise everywhere and it's a pressure for for many people and then they also don't have money actually it's quite um um scary time actually to imagine how many people suffer from this and so where is art where where could how could art function is that was my question when when the pandemic began and then I thought well creativity if you have it once you I think sometimes it appears it disappears you know and come and come and out come in and out in your head in your life but um the way of um like how do you say what we can grow is now is the attitude of caring or sharing giving if you can or exchanging or being together in spirit and and so I thought it's it's good it's never to be late never never it is never late to start and and I think um even you know yeah maybe after pandemic we don't do it anymore but now it's one year I think it becomes also um a quality time for us to learn how to do it how to do because you have sometimes idea of caring but you never rehearse to care care to care somebody else is you need some rehearsal you need some way you need to find some way to learn how to care on the good way in a good way which is suitable to your capacity which is suitable to the one you help you know sometimes you care too much also it's too much for someone you help so it's it's a good quality time to to take care of our own health of people's uh well-being also of our uh collective well-being uh through making art anyone can can do but artists can also do and uh since we are working with soul with uh ideas that is you know uh creativity and then um we are challenged to to do something more in this in this condition yes sorry yeah you know what I think if I remember you said your your work is kind of it's a political action it's something you you create it's pretty do you feel at the moment it maybe as it would be good to have an answer an honest one do you feel you are closer in the time of corona to that political action of making art than you were before um making art for me like in my performance in my political actions um somehow uh uh I could create a poetry itself by learning the daily life by receiving uh life and through my daily life I think and how I uh neck or relate with other people how I connect with objects how I connect with space with the time and um and how I can go back how I can go out from my own uh ego for example and uh some poetic actions at this time is um is tough because I need some some you know structure reality step by step and and um entering the reality carefully of course the how can I explain um political acts for me is series of also like extraction with imagination open to imagination open to perception with uh if you are doing performance that you're doing the real actions not only acting that is as if you do something but you are doing something and um but this doing something is symbolize uh something else for example if I granted charcoal for 12 hours it's not only about the charcoal itself but it's about I was talking about death and so uh when people watch me grinding but many people would think uh some audience would think it reminds me to my mother it reminds me to how how time actually very long is so because then like like comparing to people who are working for 30 30 years routinely every day going to office going back home in the evening and uh for 30 years so 12 hours is really nothing but when you're doing one watching it the idea of the motivation if you watch it and then you sense also time has its space time has its you know like second to second if it's if it's a physical time but sense of time sometimes well it's not easy to recognize the sense of time in our daily life so poetic action in this pandemic time for me is quite tough because every day I'm facing reality this reality in the sense I can see it's very poetic death death is can be poetic and sickness the weakness of the body and the suffering but I I I don't know if I shall translate it this translate this situation in the direct political actions because I think because now we are in the tough reality in the real reality maybe later five years I get inspired of this time by this time but now I do not think about making artwork out of this pandemic situation that's why I don't like like when you make art out of the pandemic situation you're like how can I cannot like I'm facing the reality I'm like my I'm like focusing on on the on the day by day reality and and of course I'm I'm thinking about yeah I'm still making art but not about the pandemic itself so sometimes if now I'm making a new project about now I'm collaborating with artists from Hanoi and from Berlin we we're supposed to to make we got a funding to make a collaborative project now we shift it into a project that can be done by people in anywhere in different locations so we create we learn from John Cage John Cage songbooks that that is met in the 60s and I was thinking like wow this is a brilliant time to get inspired by John Cage songbooks for example because this is a partiture it's a score it's a kind of a book manual that can be performed by anyone in different parts of the world but the work is that part and I think for now last year I was invited to join a project it's called dissemination everywhere it's created by the Ligna collective from Hamburg they invited 13 choreographers from all over the world and to create a voice recording of instructions of choreography or actions so they collected the the recording and put it into one hour piece and so people can perform this in different festivals that cannot happen indoor so they they can do it live with audience the audience perform our instructions by using headset and they perform collectively with distance outdoor in the park on the public space with distance and so this is also a brilliant idea I thought yes and once presented a piece at our cradle festival Claire Bishop suggested it then we got instructions to find the dancer who's retired he has hours of time he should create all the moves he remembers since he was a young student in all the choreography but whenever he wants he can sit down and do it whatever he's not allowed to rehearse before and audience can come and go so we saw a dancer who remembered his life by dancing and it was a very clear instruction based up I would like to know if I may ask you you talked about your father and he practiced I think it's called Amirta right yes he was a meditative performer so this is your heritage you dance since you are a very young girl I know that you were inspired by Anzu Kaba with the buttock but you danced very early on can you tell a bit about your father what did he do what is a what was that a meditative performer what is that so it's not necessarily I'm not calling him meditative performer but his movement create a certain method of movement like maybe in the genre to compare maybe like body mind centering kind of movement but he created by himself since the 70s as I was a child he created his method he's seeking to find his own method step by step since I was three years old and I've been watching my father rehearsing or exercising or practicing the way he moves what's his method it's Amirta movement it's his really his method yeah it looks like it's not meditation movement it's not a movement meditation it's because his work is influenced also by his meditation practice but he did not necessarily give the meditation class in his class his teaching movement so anyone can move even if you're not the dancers you learn to move because by moving then this is what I know because I've never really joined his class continuously but I was his watchers I've been watching his but he's doing since I was a child so somehow I understand but the way he guides his students to move is to create more to activate the sensory and to be in a space that is mostly outdoor and how to move according according to personal to derive or to drive to move and so like sometimes he begin with his new class his new students to like moving like a baby like crawling and crawling to stand up and to stop and then turn and crawling and then later jumping and and then and then everyone can continue there and follow their mood or their emotion or this their feeling to sense the space and by that he he said that body is very close to the nature because they practice always mostly outdoor and yes and I think he also practice in the South Sea of Yogyakarta and in Burabudur temples and many different kind of temples to sense also like the spirit of of the ancient not to how do you say not to connect like archaeology you know our historian learning about the Chandi about the temple but more to have the idea of the the certain temple for example like Burabudur is a temple that has you know kamadatu rupadatu arupadatu you know like the three levels of life and that also can inspire by learning so he for example brought his students to go to Burabudur is reading Burabudur so it's like reading reading the relief but also like reading the the whole idea of of the of the creation of the Burabudu life is watching your father right dancing and yeah and I think he inspired me a lot also because he we we argued a lot my father and I I get a lot because he said what are you doing what is performance art I don't understand yeah what about what you're doing for me is performance art not dancing because he's also doing when he performed is there's not you know there's not the productions with practice and this kind of thing it's very seldom but mostly he implied dancers or musicians to move with him to perform with him and he offered the idea okay then everybody has the authority to decide also what they want to do what kind of actions and movement they want to do and mostly it is based on the idea of creating an atmosphere of ritual and so I was like wow this you know I was like very curious and but also like skeptical about what he's doing but then I thought it's it's great it's a great idea so why am I so ignorant to his idea about ritual because I was very sensitive about you know like what belief about religion especially so I incredibly went the detour you started international relations and then you went in a way back to a realm you grew up in and I think you often you talk about there's a difference between making and doing so in time now of corona what you do now what you do you experience that difference between making and doing what is that difference I think you referred to maybe my performance at practice and the making process is long the making process is actually my process of creating I spent a lot of research for researching observations could take also you know like seven years sometimes like I observed like for seven years wherever I go I was seeking for homeless people in every town I visited and I was suddenly very interested and a bit obsessive to it I do not take any I did not take any pictures of them but I was really like so you know like very always not because of I feel like just touch but I felt like yeah you know like observing the homeless people sleeping on the road on the side of the road in front of a shopping area luxury shopping area in Rome for example is different than the homeless people in Germany for example yeah there are many of them they are drunk in the park different than homeless people in Indonesia who are sleeping under the bridge next to a very contaminated river and then the questions of that I questioned you know what is welfare what what are those countries doing what is the well-being according to the United Nations standard in that I'm researching this a lot and then then it becomes grinding charcoal and and so my doing in the performance actions is for me the process of making it is the process of life learning about life and every every in every work and I I made I learned something new I want to learn something new from life I want to to discover new knowledge new how do you say I was not with them but new perspective undiscovered perspective or hidden hidden perspective that I haven't I haven't seen before and that's why it takes time in making when doing performance then is different than like I don't copy or I don't imitate those homeless people how they sleep of course for me that's very unethical so that I translated into still an action that is of course grinding for me is is like also like the feeling of when you hear the charcoal what is it noise of the charcoal and it's like also kind of a painful uh nothing like there is a painful feeling that that that is unaffordable in this life sometimes and so um the detail of the doing in the performance art I meant it I meant it when I was doing it I meant it I'm thinking of these people I'm thinking of death that value of death value of losing loss and and when it grows you know like social welfare and well-being yeah that kind of thing so I thought um that's why it takes a lot of time for me a long time to digest and to what you say to extract single action single doing that represent all those all those images or concerns something like that yeah no I think it's quite an interesting concept we are in a time then of making and not doing at the moment and so like when you say I researched for seven years so now is a time to making something that you can be doing perhaps and later and your your your thoughts are really an important contribution did you find something in that last year and did you just cover something new or do you feel your practice at the moment is a continuation of what you have already done or do you feel something new yeah I felt like uh well sometimes we are too uh in our art life we treat art practitioners each other very bad sometimes it's quite rough and tough for the soul for the sake of creation and sometimes I found myself as one of those who who who are losing soul sometimes and who feel lost and but also very um let me say full of desire and this desire for me is quite dangerous the desire to make the desire to produce the desire to be seen the desire to be out there the desire and and also with uh now it's not getting better because we are replaced here our desire in our mobile gadgets and and even even like you it's dangerous even you feel like out there you feel closer to me now Frank but we are very far away we are not really real it's just a virtual we are communicated by this this digital mean but now I'm a bit emotional sorry but I think if I see my nearest environment artists even young artists through their education they also need to learn uh how to love and respect uh others uh attempt to work or to create it's not all about competition it's not all about to be the best it's not about um you know like like this struggling to find your space and it's not all about me me me and it's about us I think it is more important at the moment and then I thought uh with my students like to let's let's learn together I'm not saying I'm teaching you how to do it let's learn together so I'm I'm I'm with them I'm learning from the bottom to get the how to create and really be open and discuss if you talk about this do you think you you maybe hurt someone or if I talk like this do I hurt you or uh not not so that sensible but not that far but I think by carrying others through art activities like even when we make a program and to learn how to serve the the artists we invite to our studio when they perform and learning art that's why I make my program festivals and lab and so because I learn I learn I'm happy they're coming here to share their work their method so I serve them I learn to serve I provide food I'm choosing the best food I'm I'm trying to make them uh in the comfortable stay and to take care of their health that no one can you know influenza or disease from tropical diseases they're from abroad and they feel comfortable in our studio and I think that that is um because yeah okay my festival is considered as an underground festival it doesn't matter but I love I come from the underground too and butto was also underground so I'm not afraid for being there but I think that that's even the quality of being connected as human to human is better than for example let's say in the in the high art society or you know and and so this different world for me is obvious during the pandemic and that I'm here in solo then I yeah I thought I have the reality I thought I've been doing so much outside and not enough doing what's happening here but not enough making an environment not enough making together with my nearest environment and I thought creating from a small thing together that will create a nicer or a better ecosystem of of life of art or art living I think I think is more important and it's a good time it's a good time now to think about that or to do something about that not just you know making big works and big art and I try to be famous with the wealth and I think I can wait another year one year and we still we did a lot we did pilgrimage I went to the South Sea with my students and bringing nothing and just being there and and tried to get some message from the nature to get an interaction direct interaction with the water with the air with the trees and then and share and sharing what we felt and how we felt and what we recognize what is new for us being out of the town and being far away from home and being closer to the nature we still do yeah we still encourage also young people young dancers to create a young choreographer to create new pieces with one or solo piece or do it or do a piece so it's still possible to do something that is you know yeah it's keep our creative mood but also like trying to keep balance with with other aspects of life yeah that is that is truly remarkable I think your message also to a New York artist I think it is serious it is important your what you talked about that the social context the community to be really in a place to care about others to listen to show love and receive and that way that there's something like a soul we have to take care of and that it got lost we had once came here in New Yorker from the laundromat project and she said we kind of never said how are you when we were doing things we're so you know we have to do something we didn't check in you know now we we do that and I think what you said about a small project start from there watch a planned crowd create a community also care about the little girls all the students art students were dense I can I can also teach you something to to kind of open open that that up and prepare you're doing very well I think this is a time where we can prepare what we're doing I think it is also important for artists know that your idea of cultural organizations or to train curators to be a curator to create a community it is important and we need to do that and perhaps it's missing I remember we had paper moon theater and she talked about John John if I remember right she said we have about 50 festivals in town we don't have really a cultural department in the city but we do the festival they happen and every so many people are involved here in New York we don't have one gigantic it's big international festival as we talked about before and something is missing and I think and there are messages we have to take very serious from what you talk about and as an artist focus about and this is something that is perhaps and you're also guiding us in the in the way forward so really really thank you also now it's past midnight I'm sure for a long in the in where you are now in Indonesia and so maybe at the very end what what what are projects are you working on something that will come up are you making something that you will be doing in seven years from now so that next week I will be hosting a series of talks we will talk the the title of the series called back to rituals I also tried to learn and yeah maybe you know like learn and to um introduce this idea of ritual in our uh contemporary performance practice um you know like we have in the in the 60s uh in in the you know like the happenings and so on and so on uh we we have the history of the the ritual as an influence which was so much about it yeah yeah and so um this time I invite uh Diane Butler Dr. Diane Butler she is a very close friend of mine and uh who also I've been working with my father for many many years about 20 years and she is from uh US but she's been living more than 20 years in Bali she's a teacher but also a teacher she will talk about uh Bali in like the religiosity and and the practice of ritual as a living art in Bali I think they're interesting and also I invited Gabriela Natasha Tonte a young Indonesian young Indonesian um visual artist who works digital um digital art and um performance art she researched certain ceremonies of the Minahasa where her family come from which is not through Sulawesi another island Tenjawa and uh she joined the ceremony and she's interested into the roots of of where she come from the culture um myth and the myth that is involved in the rituals and translated into digital animations and semi-documentary and mixed with the digital animation and to talk about the future and how to create the future she also talked about cockroach the nation of cockroach nation very and I also invite a Bangkok a Bangkok and New York based uh artist from Thailand and he also work in the very interesting uh medium that is a translation of of of uh his observation about uh particularly about um people uh and and ghosts and so he also creates um ghost festival in Bangkok a couple years ago and I was very um interested into his creation and he's an artist himself but also creating this festival and so he will talk about these ghosts and spirits in our contemporary life and then I mean I also invite Max Stewart a renowned choreographer from from the US and who lives in Berlin already more than 20 years to in Europe uh Belgium and in Berlin and she has a company dance company is called the Damage Good she is also a friend because I'm not the academic kind of moderator but I'm I'm inviting my friends who whose work I feel it's important it's important to to talk to listen to create these fields it changes us when we participate sometimes you know even when we speak things become clearer to us and it changes us to listen to participate and to be part of it and really we are a bit over time so I hope uh we don't keep you from from sleeping you know too too much um there okay this was a contribution thank you and there of course I'm doing other projects and I'm also teaching I'm doing you know like kind of um writing writing writing to for journals and so on and and yeah keeping my routine here in the studio keeping us working and creating something and learning together and so I'm very busy I'm busy like I don't know I'm very especially quiet, strangely busy and who knows maybe one day at the Asia Society we will see seven years from our exhibition you know about the corona time and what you did and the traces and and who knows what but now we are in the middle of it and um and it is good to hear from you you know also in the Asian Society there is Asia Society 3 now you can see also documentation of the work that I have done uh in 2019 I have performed there and now it is exhibited for the Asia Society 3 now so if you have time please come and visit the Asia Society in New York important to see the documentation of unicates and we all don't know enough about this gigantic big uh territory of Asia over 50 countries so diverse uh from each other so different and we already know how Texas how different it is from Florida but just imagine 50 over 50 countries and we need to know more we understand life better and do have some some better questions about that we have and some answers you've found and it's significant and we really can learn from that so thank you really really for for being with us and I hope to see you again one day when you're here in New York or one day I come and visit Indonesia I now want to come and learn more and be there also in person and see you dancing we will have tomorrow um we will continue we're going to have Eva Mann from Switzerland together with Washington of Wanda from Nigeria they are creating work together they support each other they come out of the and Katania's because in the director's lab and they also show you know that we you know should do what also Melati as we should create collaborations on smaller levels and they become bigger and actually a lot of small things are very big all together and this is how how change happens next week we will be part of a conference we are organizing here the students of the graded center um Keownie about the ideas of professionals and amateur about work of expert and not the remedy protocol will be um part of it and and many many others and on Friday we have the great Joe Malillo who was the captain on the big boat of BAM for over 25 years the Brooklyn Academy of Music and I can't wait to hear from him what he thinks about this time which I'm sure he has never imagined he would live through and what it meant he left them shortly before and I think he's been such a great observer of the landscape of theater global theater also and not presenting we have all so many questions so it will be will be interesting thanks for howl around for hosting us again and we are deeply grateful and to you listeners for taking time out we know how much is out there how important also your time is and we need great artists but we also need great audiences and we also need to listen and so this is a big compliment that you joined us and it is also important for Malati to know some people in New York in Hungary and South Africa and in Wilna wherever people are listening from and they do actually that this is important and say we'll listen to what someone from Indonesia from Bali or anywhere has to say so solo as where you are so really thank you again thanks everybody have a good good weekend we and I hope you will get a good night's sleep and really thank you this was such a deep and meaningful conversation thank you for a nice day yeah thank you all my best and um I hope you all will join us again and next week in Malati please do stay in contact and let us know what you're doing bye bye yes thank you bye bye