 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by John Ramsey who is an educator performer and the former chair of the percussion department at Berkeley College of Music John welcome to the show. Hi Bart. Thanks for having me Absolutely. So today we're talking about the legendary teacher Alan Dawson who you yourself took lessons with and you know, obviously that's I think you said on and off for a while since 1973 so excited to hear about that and your experiences, but I'd love to start off like usual Just with like who is Alan Dawson? Maybe what is his background? You know when he was born all that good stuff Oh gosh, you asked me the hard questions that well, let me let me start with this part of Alan's life Alan was actually I mean besides being you know a world-class jazz drummer Who played with the who's who of jazz artists? He was also the first and for a while the only drum teacher at Berkeley back in the 50s So he had already been established as a player and he played for many years with Lionel Hampton's big band and a lot of people may may not know or realize that he was actually The drummer for the Dave Brubeck quartet After Joe Morello and I think for probably more years than Joe Morello everybody knows Dave Brubeck quartet from you know the recording with Joe Morello by the ways from Springfield mass You know from the recording of take five But I couldn't tell you exactly what year but Alan was actually Joe Morello's replacement and played with Dave Brubeck for many years He was the first call drummer in the Boston area, but he was also and people can actually go on YouTube and find a lot of this is he was the house drummer for what was called prestige Records in those days It was one of the major jazz labels and Alan was the house drummer So he made recordings with everybody from Clifford Brown and Lionel Hampton and Gigi Grice art farmer Jackie Byard just a whole slew of Dexter Gordon of People that you know recorded for prestige records. So Actually that was probably during the 70s, but I like to tell the story about what led me to study with Alan Dawson great. Yeah, I was a actually I wasn't Technically enrolled in the music department of the University of Massachusetts in Amherst But I played in a band my story was I was basically a self-taught drummer who grew up in the 60s and You know learned to play from listening records of you know, Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix and Cream, you know Mitch Mitchell and Ginger Baker there we go Those were kind of my you know my idols but in the Early 70s I kind of gravitated to the University of Massachusetts in Amherst mass Area where there were five colleges and where Max Roach had come to teach now I didn't know too much about jazz at that point But like I said, I was a self-taught drummer and so I used to go to Max Roach's ensembles and his his his percussion ensemble his small group ensemble and He taught a jazz history class there as well, which really consisted of Charlie Parker stories But Mac was very kind to me He would he would you know, invite me to play in the ensembles and you know So I was kind of hanging around the music department unofficially Not really enrolled but one day I I you know, I waited for after class and I said mr. Roach mr. Roach I Probably called the max but I said do you do you give private lessons and he said Ramsey? No said I don't do that He said but if you want to study you need to get your behind down to Boston and Look for Alan Dawson now. I that was about a hundred miles away from Boston. So This was in Western mass where I'm from and so If not for Max Roach, I would have not known who Or would have never met Alan Dawson. So yeah, it was When Max Roach tells you you know to study with this guy you have to kind of take it to heart So oh man was was Max Roach a nice, you know a nice guy. He was a very nice guy very Very genteel diplomatic gentlemanly Guy close to the time Yeah But he had kind of a Let's say a tempestuous relationship with the University of Mass because In those days the jazz department was just being built it was actually started by a guy named Fred Tillis who was another one of my mentors and So I think there were struggles between the you know the stodgy Classical music department that had been there for years and they had all the nice offices and you know the the the new jazz Program the bachelors It was actually called Afro-American music and jazz degree program, you know, they were like the bastard children So there was always this tension between I think you know The established classical music department and now it's different they have a great jazz program there Run by Jeff Holmes, and it's really come into its own but in those days there was some tension between Max and that actually Archie Shepp came there Reggie workmen. They all came at the same time Who else was there? Yusef Latif was all in the UMass Amherst area. So but anyways So taking Max Roach's advice I drove down to Boston and I actually went to what is Then and still is the 1140 Boylston Street building of Berkeley College of Music So this had to be around. I don't know. I keep thinking 1972 which would have made me about the age of 22 I started playing when I was about 12. So I would have been playing for about 10 years So let's say 1972 73 around that time So I found out Alan Dawson's office was on the second floor of the 1140 Boylston Street building And at that time that was probably the only building That Berkeley had it was very small in those days now there I mean there's more more buildings and properties than I could count But I went up to the second floor. I saw the the room with his name on and knocked on the door and you know This guy came to the door. I always remember he had like kind of a corduroy I wouldn't be calling in those days like a like a leisure suit almost like a you know Athletic suit of the day, but it was a little more Elegant than that, but anyways, he knocked on the door and I said, oh, hello, mr. Dawson. Mr. Dawson. Yes That hi, my name is John Ramsey. I'm from Amherst and Northampton or whatever I said, uh, and I wanted to know do you take students outside of Berkeley? And he kind of smiled And he said well, he said as a matter of fact, you've come at a good time Because I'm leaving Berkeley in a couple of months and I'm starting a private practice at my home in Lexington, Mass I was like cool So, um I guess Alan was actually I think Alan was at Berkeley for I think 17 years um So at any rate, this is just began my My relationship with Alan, but what I did know about Alan was what uh A lot of drummers at that time did know was that He had been the teacher of Tony Williams And that kind of I think forged his reputation as a great teacher because you know Tony Williams at the age of 17 was playing with Miles Davis and changing the whole You know jazz drumming Style really so sure We knew that that um Tony was uh one of Alan's first students But I learned maybe a little while after that also that Harvey Mason had been one of Alan's students Harvey was actually a student at New England Conservatory But I think like Tony he probably came out here to the house that I now live in Where Alan's studio was in Lexington Harvey Mason Terry Lynn Carrington is another student, but I think also When when Alan's did teach at Berkeley. He had people come through there Casey churrell I mean when I was working at Berkeley I would say probably three quarters of the percussion department faculty were all former Alan Dawson students So he really left his mark Peter Erskine was another one that studied with Alan probably at at jazz camps JR Robinson was one of Alan's students at Berkeley as was Steve Smith, I believe I mean So, you know his reputation as a teacher just really started to to grow as You know his former students went out and into the world and became You know well-known drummers themselves Yeah, that's there's certain teachers where Alan was from Rocksbury, Massachusetts The part of Boston as was Tony Williams As was Roy Haynes Wow Rocksbury that makes sense because I was wondering how old he would have been when he was teaching Tony because Tony was obviously I mean that was a long time ago before 1975 obviously But it makes perfect sense now that that would have been in the In that town man, there's something about Massachusetts and drummers and music I've said that in another episode where there's a lot of great musicians and drummers and just people from from from your neck of the woods Yeah, well, it's probably that northeast quadrant of the of the country too, you know Yeah, New York City. There's there's a lot of Schools there were a lot of jazz clubs in in Boston back in in those days Not so much anymore But yeah, Boston has a rich a rich drumming history Sure. All right. Let's jump in back to Your lessons so you said kind of in the mid 70s there and again i'm reading online here it says Um, I know you said he went private. He was leaving the university and I'm reading online that it says something about he Hurt his back He did tell me in one of my lessons that What happened to his back was that he and some of his buddies were I don't know trying to Be wise guys or something or have some fun and and they tried to lift up and move a Volkswagen Beetle Oh Good and that's that's what happened. You ruptured a disc or something in his back, but um um So wow I like I like to share this part of my lessons with alan Uh, you know, like I said, I was a self-taught musician out in the You know the western mass massachusetts part of the of the state and uh I played in various bands, but I played in one particular band around this time that was actually doing pretty well Uh, we played at colleges night clubs and you know bars, but if we had a good week 90 dollars A piece for the week was a good week And so and so I had kind of resigned Or or envisioned my future to be that of kind of the starving artist, right? So, you know, it's like Okay, you know We played uh three nights this week and uh, you know, I got we played for the door and uh, wow I got a hundred bucks this week. Wow. So it you know things um, but I'll also say that probably also fed into my My desire to to seek out real education but um I remember the first time I drove to my lesson And pulled up to alan dawson's house Which is a you know, it's it's a it's a modest ranch house in In lexington massachusetts, which is a very expensive town But you know it was for those times and those those days It was actually quite a nice house But my my thought was upon pulling into the drive. It was like wow You mean you you can be a musician and and and live in a nice house and have a nice car and and have a normal life It was like kind of uh, you know A revelation to me that just to see that here was a musician Who had a fairly comfortable lifestyle lived in a nice neighborhood and But so that was uh, one of those unseen sort of lessons or unexpected lessons, but once I kind of started lessons I think I was maybe in my second or third lesson with alan And uh, I'll give you some details of what What were actually uh, the lessons were comprised of in a minute, but this is another Another uh, somewhat embarrassing but worthwhile story was that You know now, I was kind of a big fish in a small pond out in the western mass where I played and everybody knew me and You know, hey, he's cool. He's a drummer and so I think it was about my second or third lesson I said to alan I said, you know, I wanted him to uh to give me an evaluation of my playing Secretly, you know hoping that he was gonna say well. Yeah. Yeah, you're gonna be the next tony williams We all want that so so, you know, I I I asked for it and I got it and this was the thing about alan was he was very honest and In a way that was very diplomatic, but it was meant for you to learn from so I said Yeah, so could you give me an evaluation of my my playing and he kind of sat back in his chair and said well, he said, uh Well, you're a proficient drummer, you know, you've been playing for For 10 years Uh one style anyways, you know, I've been primarily a rock drummer and he said but for all intents and purposes You're really a beginner And I was like, I think man, I that stopped me in my tracks. Yeah, what do you mean a beginner? What do you mean? I've been you call him a beginner. I've been digging since I was 12 years old And but his If if I hadn't heard that from him I don't think I'd be here today talking to you because that was really That was an honest and and really very generous, uh Appraisal that that made me realize I had work to do And a lot of work Yeah, and so that's another that was another, uh, I think uh quality of allen's that If you hadn't practiced enough He would let you know He wouldn't say, you know, look, I think you need another week on that because uh That's not getting it, you know, so this was his his his um genius as a teacher that uh He knew uh What students needed to do to progress to get better Yeah, you know it Someone on the show Said at one point that that something Sometimes teachers will hurt students by just you know patting them on the back too much and not giving them the truth Yeah, say you're doing great. You're doing great. You're doing great. Um, yeah, yeah Where sometimes you need to hear Like you're you're doing it wrong. You're you're holding your sticks wrong like Yeah, you know 10 years of playing is a really long time, but you could be playing for 50 years and if you're practicing the wrong stuff Yeah, I mean But really that's great because you you you clearly turned out, you know pretty pretty damn well. So there's um It just goes to show that the truth can hurt, but it's it's sometimes it's nice to hear Yeah, well, I mean it didn't happen overnight. You know, it was a process and uh I had to evolve and and learn what You know how to practice and Uh, you know how to organize my practice and my time. So and you know alan was helpful with that I want to give you just a sort of uh An idea of a typical lesson with alan And and I was thinking about this earlier today alan went when asked Uh would say that he didn't teach drums He taught music And that you know Wherever whatever style of music you chose to apply Uh the things that you learned with him was was relevant. So it wasn't you know specific to any one style They were fundamentals and basic skills that that drummers needed to play any style And so that was something I remember him saying, you know, I don't teach drums I teach music but a typical lesson with alan was an hour lesson And I call this the meat and potato stuff Of of when I was teaching at berkeley and that was a little tricky because I would try to squeeze into a half an hour lesson What alan taught in an hour, but there were four basic components that comprised the biggest part of alan's teaching So in a typical one hour lesson you would first of all do rudiments And now if anybody's seen the book I wrote the drummers complete vocabulary as taught by alan Dawson You'll find all of this in the book, but alan taught uh and and usually He would give you about three rudiments per lesson to work on for the next week or the next two weeks I was one of those students that I came every other week. So I'd have two weeks to to work on three rudiments, but over the course of time He taught you all the 26 american rudiments about another 17 or so swiss rudiments another probably 15 or so rudiments called innovations or new innovations And then another 13 rudiments That were actually invented by one of his former students that that he called chops builders So all in all with variations there were over 80 rudiments and uh Once you've got through those 80 rudiments And believe me, uh, I was not uh I was not a great student. So it took me a long time to get through them all Uh, that with you know stopping and starting lessons from time to time But but um, I know there are plenty of guys that got through them a lot quicker than I did But once you've got through all those 80 rudiments alan would say okay now review them all with the brushes And you'd kind of like go what? And then he would kind of demonstrate how you know He would play on the tips of the brushes and how you had to pick the strokes up because the brushes don't rebound like sticks do And so then you'd review all At a much quicker pace than when you had first learned them all those 80 rudiments With the brushes and once you had done that Then he would tape record for you in those days There was no book and he hadn't he didn't have a written version of what everybody knows now to be called the rudimental ritual So he would tell you okay next week bring a 90 minute cassette tape And i'm going to tape the rudimental ritual for you now the rudimental ritual Uh could take like 15 or 20 minutes to play through the whole thing But basically what it is is like, uh um all of those 80 rudiments Uh In four and eight bar phrases played over a bossa nova foot pattern with the brushes And this you know, this is so many versions of this on the on youtube and on the internet, but uh Refer to the alan dawson book, but so that was The first part of of your your one hour lesson was the rudiments and then Alan would describe it He he said his lessons were designed to be 50 technique and 50 music so the second technique part of the of the lesson was Uh an exercise that he used uh stick control the book by george lauren stone stick control And it was an exercise he designed to develop your single stroke roll Which he would always describe as the the hardest rudiment You know the single stroke roll is you know to get it to sound good and even and up to any sort of you know, uh, uh, you know, Tony williams level single strokes, right? Yeah a little hard Yeah, this was an exercise that he devised using the stick control Stick control book uh to develop the single stroke roll. So that's two parts of the lesson Now the third part is another part that that alan has known the world over for and it was He had over 40 ways of of interpreting the the pages of Ted reads syncopation book So in the middle of the book you could call what what alan would call the the meat of the book exercises one through eight So alan devised over 40 different ways of interpreting those eight pages of exercises using various short and long sounds filling in triplets, uh a whole myriad of different ways of interpreting them that they had very musical applications, but The syncopation book Again, and you would work on like one way of those 40 plus ways Each lesson or sometimes more than just for one lesson because it might take you Several weeks to get down all eight pages and he would always stipulate that And when you came back if you played the first, you know, we all burned through the first page, right? Yeah, and then he'd go, okay, uh, how about exercise number seven? And then you'd kind of shudder because you knew you hadn't practiced Exercise seven as much as you practiced Exercise one so you would uh, you kind of you know, take a deep breath and then And then mess it up and he'd go, uh, did you practice that page? And you'd have to go well Not as much as the first page. You go play it once Yeah, yeah, so he he would go well, I think you need another week on that So there again, you know, he was teaching he was teaching you to be thorough to uh, to not cut corners And you know the thing about the those pages in syncopation is that You know exercise one doesn't have any consecutive eighth notes in it like four or more eighth notes in a row So if you hadn't done exercises two through through eight where you have a lot of consecutive eighth notes, you you wouldn't be able to do them so so again, you know the 40 plus ways of interpreting those eight pages And this was all under under the uh, you know the the heading of four-way coordination, right? Yeah, because some of those exercises you would have uh, well the most sort of, um It's basic interpretation of a short and long right and you could actually could actually If you wanted a simple definition of Of of music, right? You could say it's a combination of short and long tones, right? So Really? So I mean the the the first Time that alan introduced you to that idea was you played the short notes on the snare drum And the long notes on the bass drum. So eighth notes are short quarter notes Tied eighth notes and dotted quarter notes are all long. So where you had a single line of something like Right, which you'd have to be able to do first on the snare drum or whatever for the reading Now would become dip boom dip boom boom boom boom dip boom boom Dip boom dip boom dip boom right snare drum bass drum Right hand keeps time the jazz ride pattern hiats on two and four And then as you went further along Uh, you had somewhere you would be playing the short notes on the hi-hat The long notes on the bass drum filling in triplets with the left hand and the jazz ride pattern on the right hand So some very challenging Four-way coordination studies, you know that really I mean Just uh, but there again, uh Very useful in in a musical sense as well So that's three things you had the rudiments you had the single stroke roll exercise Then you had the four-way coordination And perhaps the fourth thing maybe what I would I have often said is really one of alan's most genius-like, uh creations was using the stick control book again And interpreting the the rights and the lefts for rights equal alternating hands on the snare drum Lefts equal the bass drum So like where you had right left right left single stroke roll right left right you'd have dip dip dip dip dip dip or left right left right back Double stroke right right left left right right left dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip left left right right Right so that's the interpretation of the exercises, but what alan did was He had you play each column In the context of A variety of different song forms So for example, uh, and again you can find this all over YouTube if you put my name alan dawson You'll you'll find this exercise But so what you would have to do is you'd have to play four bars of time Then four bars of that exercise that particular exercise whatever number one number two Uh, so that would equal eight bars So the first column and stick control you would do With an a a b a 32 bar song form. It's the most common song form there is sure a a b a 32 bars So you'd have four bars of time four bars of the first exercise That's eight bars that equals the first day four bars of time again four bars of the second exercise That's the second eight bars or the second day Then four bars of time again four bars of exercise number three Equals the b or the bridge of the tune Four bars of time again four bars of exercise number four. That's the last day of the first chorus So with exercises one through 12 on page five of stick control you'd have a total of three courses a a b a That's one course a a b a that's two courses a a b a that's three courses and then um, oh and let's not forget the the part that Messed everybody up was while you were doing all that you had to sing the melody of the tune Allowed. Oh my god. Your brain just like is splitting so many directions there Well, it's like what gary chester called it the fifth limb right the voice, right? Yeah, uh, uh, really hard Steve howton would say you can't sing can't play so But but so once you had you know The exercises then you'd have to of course learn the melody So in this case any a a b a tune those are tunes like take the a train or satin doll Uh, I've got rhythm or any of those tunes based on rhythm changes, right? I got rhythm It's the most common song form there is so Allen would say okay three choruses of the exercises and then for a fourth chorus a chorus of solo Still singing the tune allowed So yeah, I mean this this this was for It's just about anyone who's ever tried that exercise It really was a challenge and uh, it took a lot of time and effort to get it together I mean, but you learned Uh, I mean there were so many benefits you got from that one exercise Uh, the most obvious sort of being uh, you you would uh It would help you to learn to feel four and eight bar phrases, right? That's what most melodies are four and eight bar phrases because you had four bars of time Four bars of the exercise could take some time, but eventually it reinforced that idea um Of course you were learning tunes because after you did the first column You'd go to the second column with an a b a c tune It's another 32 bar song form After that when you had that down you'd go to the next page page six First column with the a b a b tune, right? So examples of a a b a c tune are tunes like uh on green dolphin street or Four by miles davis My romance probably the second most common song form Page six first column with the a b a b tune Those are tunes like tune up by miles davis or blue bosses and a b a b tune Still 32 bar tune but a b a b and then the next column on page six you do with a 12 bar tune Most of which we know are blues, right? uh, and then uh page seven first column you do with a 48 bar tune Which are tunes like um, I'll remember april Or uh night and day is another 48 bar tune So you were learning repertoire because you had to learn all those melodies you were learning All of the standard song forms that you would deal with on a gig And and and more importantly you were learning to solo over the form of a tune Which is so this is all so practical. Yeah, and and usable as opposed to like I mean everyone you always hear in in a lot of these episodes I've heard okay stick control and syncopation which are just so iconic, but it's like this is just a little bit different It's another way of doing it where it's what you do with them. Yeah. Yeah, it's what it's what you do with them It's how you like in the singing while you're doing it I mean, we've all done that where someone's talking to you and you're trying to play and you kind of start to talk like this because you're playing It's like it's really just Freeing your your mind and your your voice and it's it's challenging you to go against the The old Addage of you know, what's the definition of a band? Four musicians and a drummer Yeah, we're more than that Right, I mean now you're a musician too. It's like, yeah, I hear the changes. I hear the form. I hear the harmony I hear the melody and i'm in there with you. I'm the same place you are so and and just that alone of You singing the melody Automatically made your solos more melodic Not in the sense that you were playing, you know Specific pitches but in the sense that if the melody Goes up you can apply going up if the melody goes down you can apply going down and so, you know, uh, it really like I say I think I would often imagine alan of lying awake at night dreaming up Ways that he could create uh exercises that would reinforce Musical concepts, you know, and that was just so amazing that uh, and once you got to that 48 bar tune You would keep going in the book And you know picking a tune for a new tune for each column and uh For me in those days it was it was the perfect sort of Compliment to my my real life Situation because I was playing in well one group in particular. We played a lot of standard tunes I was playing like three nights a week at that point when I was, you know In in like the holiday in right in the lounge, right? But we're playing all the all those kinds of tunes that That alan was referring to standard tunes, you know, uh, and so I had a great resource from From which I could pull Uh tunes to use in those exercises for and but at the same time it was reinforcing My playing on the gig so yeah, really important stuff. So and and Kind of to step back again. So if you look at that those four components of a lesson rudiments single stroke roll four-way coordination, uh song form soloing over the form You know, you can pretty much see where there is that that kind of intent of alan's there of 50% technique 50 music. So But you know as you kind of progressed over time with alan You know There became and as you got better there became room for for other topics to come in say chart interpretation or You know, he worked with a couple of different snare drum books the all-american drummer So it wasn't strictly limited to those form those four Components and you you would bring stuff to him like, you know, hey, what's a mambo, right? And yeah, of course he would address that too, but but I would say that was kind of like the meat potatoes of his lessons and you know, uh Sounds very full Just very well thought out not very, uh, I mean obviously from being a professor at berkeley He's the real deal. I mean, he knows what he's doing obviously, but and and I love too that like Let's say with syncopation, um, where I mean when I was going through syncopation It Is so easy and I did it at first and then I went back But you skip like I literally just the quarter note stuff some of the early stuff You just skip it because you're like, I can do that. Yeah, I can do that But that's not what you should do. You should do it and maybe do it to a metronome Do it slower do it faster do it with your feet do it There's so much you could take from this stuff, which um It's like he they don't great teachers don't leave any You know meat on the bone. Yeah stone unturned. They just it's it's all valuable. Um Which gosh such a such a great teacher. I mean you're lucky And I know you know that but you're lucky to have experienced, you know such a Iconic teacher. Absolutely. I mean, uh, just to kind of you know Reinforce what you're saying about the syncopation book and and and another Sort of aspect of alan was that she knew Where you needed to start as a student so in terms of reading I couldn't you know, I couldn't read quarter notes And so I literally did start in the beginning of the syncopation book those exercises where you've got Quarter notes and quarter rests and then yeah eighth notes and then you know triplets and then six I needed that I needed to start there and he knew that and so that's where he started me Now there were other guys who could already read who came to alan and the the sort of The test for him was could you read those eight pages on in those days? It was the old version of the book It was pages 37 through 44 now I think it's pages 38 through 45 but exercises one through eight in the middle of the book And that was the test for him if you could read those pages Then you could you were ready to to do His different variations of interpreting those pages But the first thing was you had to be able to read those pages So he worked me up from the beginning of the book all on snare drum and a hand And then up to those eight exercises pages eight eight exercises The first thing I did with those was just play them all on the snare drum You know hand to hand Because if you couldn't read it, you know, you were going to be able to play it You know with the various ways of four-way coordination So he taught to the level of each student whatever that student's needs were And I think that's another sign of a good teacher's like, you know, some guys just this is what I do You either get it or you don't know so like will play for me Ed soaps another great example of that. It's like, you know Which would be a whole nother episode, but uh, you know, he he would He would play whatever the level was he would teach to that level. So uh, very important. I think for Yeah Yeah, and I think uh with with all of these it's like like going through syncopation Um, I was working with a teacher. I actually in the last year I've played for most of my life, but I just my reading needed help So I was working on it with barry james who's a great teacher who studied with george lorenz stone Um, berries in his 80s now But you know, I'd be on my own and I would be just kind of plowing through syncopation Kind of reading it and then you know, like this is going great And then I'm sure you know the exercise the last one that you get to where it's like Holy crap. This is everything in here. And this is like the hardest It's like one page or it's like dear god. This book just got hard. Um, Yeah, well, I remember alan Commenting about the syncopation book. It was like I said something to him like, you know, oh, so they're really really uh, Really famous book, huh? And he kind of said, you know, he said, well, yeah, thanks to me That's, you know, probably he was right. He was really right because I mean, yes, ted reed wrote a great a great text, but The the ways that it it became Or came to be interpreted Was really what kind of I think sold the book, you know, everybody was buying that book that ever went to berkeley Uh, you know, so yeah What else can I tell you about about the great alan dawson? I mean for your listeners, I hope they all will go to youtube and put in alan dawson There's some great youtube clips of alan playing with uh, with sonny rollins Uh, there's tons of stuff with him playing with dave brubeck. So if you google, you know, sonny rollins Sonny rollins alan dawson or alan dawson dave brubeck dave brubeck alan dawson there's and he was like I mean, I I did another podcast with uh uh, a local, uh, actually organization a few weeks ago and uh I started by saying that, you know alan was hands down Indisputably one of the greatest drummers that ever lived And and you know, he he may not have had that same sort of uh, you know household name kind of thing that That'll like buddy rich or you know, yeah, even max or or tony williams. Yeah, you know all those guys, but Uh, I think it it was because he I remember When I uh played in our blakies big bin Uh In the early night it would have been 1980 and alan dawson was there with Maybe bill evans. I'm not even sure. I don't remember now who he was playing with That's another one to google alan dawson with bill evans, but uh, we were hanging out in the hotel After the gig these are like jazz festivals that happen in in europe every summer all over the place Montreux and den hage and niece but alan happened to be um On the same bill and so there was my teacher and so we were hanging out at this this jam session uh in the In the hotel later that evening and alan. I was just standing around talking and you know, there's Everybody was in there. You know sarah vaughan dizzy gillespie You know freddy hubbard. They're all like hanging out, right? This is the this was the you know When you get off the elevator in the lobby you'd see all those people, you know Just like all the jazz heroes hanging around but so A drummer named vinny regerio Uh, who was actually another former? alan dawson student was was playing in the jam session and alan and i were kind of standing and i'm like wow this guy's Good, he sounded like philly joan and alan was like, you know, and It was a nice hotel. It was a great jazz festival and i remember alan saying to me said he said look it He said if it was like this all the time I wouldn't mind being on the road But it's not like this all the time And I think that revealed a lot about alan and again kind of reinforced by the fact that he lived in this nice house and this nice neighborhood was that He made lifestyle choices uh That you know, he was very active like I said, he was the first call guy in boston and but he He built his career so that he could choose The gigs that he did or didn't do And that you know if he wanted to go on the road if the the circumstances were right the money was right Uh, the accommodations were right. He'd say yes But if if they weren't He didn't need to go because that wasn't his only Income stream, you know, he could go down to the basement and make a good weeks paycheck With uh, you know, however many dozens of students he saw each week. So I mean, I think that that That had a lot to do with, uh Well, I'm the same way it's like, you know, uh, when you're young The road can be a lot of fun and Uh, but after a while you kind of go Do I want to be playing in this? Hotel lounge six nights a week for $462 a week for the rest of my life or you know Yeah, or do I want to have a little more control over what I do? So I think that was another Sort of built-in lesson that I got from alan But I mean when you hear some of the recordings he's made Uh And you listen to oh my goodness And and even max wrote said to me once he said, uh Whenever they would come to boston, I don't know if he was referring to You know, maybe his group with clifford brown. It was like he'd go Whenever drummers came to boston, they would dread playing behind alan dawson Because alan would just kick their behinds, you know, he was just like So Yeah, he has some great. I mean his soloing is great. There's a there's a cool video online that I posted a while ago on social media of of uh, Alan playing and his tom Basically fell off Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly and he just he handled it like a pro Didn't phase him in the least No hardware problems never seem to go away. Obviously they've gotten better, but your symbol stand will still fall over and uh, Yeah, man, what I what a What a smart guy is kind of what I can take away from some of this. It's just like Just he he seems like he has it all together and um, just maybe you know Maybe that's some of that army background helped with kind of his his Regimental sort of this is what we're gonna do. This is how we're gonna do it and I don't know too much details, but it sounds like he didn't get too wrapped up and like, um, you know Drug problems or anything like that Yeah, which Yeah, that's kind of what i'm saying about his lifestyle choices. Exactly Yeah, but he I should mention and I meant to have mentioned earlier that uh He studied with a guy named charlie alden When he was coming up in boston now I don't know much about charlie alden other than the fact that um allen studied with him and Many of the guys of allen's generation around boston studied with charlie alden, but uh, I think charlie alden May have been a student of george ell stone And I think allen even said that he took a few lessons with with george ell stone as well um, cool, but I think charlie alden was like Another one of my teachers that I only had a few lessons with when I was very young Uh, uh, his name was jocef chick and jocef chick was jo morellos teacher Yeah, but joe jocef chick was um, he was like a vaudeville drummer You know where you played tempo blocks and you played a little you know Not even necessarily a drum kit, but just kind of a a percussion and that's the other thing about allen And if if if you can find his his cd Uh, it might be on amazon or somewhere like that. It's called waltzing with flow Florence was his wife. So the only, uh Recording he ever did, you know, uh of his own Uh, there's a cd called waltzing with flow But on that recording, you'll hear allen play vibraphone Oh, cool. And I mean I did gigs with him, uh, where he was on vibes and I was on drums And it well, he would do that in his lessons with you too. Once you kind of reach kind of a an advanced stage Uh, you would trade fours and eights and courses with him playing vibes and He was a nasty jazz vibraphonist The two so, you know, he was a complete musician. He was uh, you know, there were no, uh, no shortcomings there And yes, you're right. He was super super intelligent super intelligent guy Well, one thing I want to ask you about the lessons that I've learned, um with doing some of these is um And I think I would I probably know the answer But let's say uh, so steve fiddic talked about joe morello. He said lessons would go for hours They would go so beyond the time Um, bruce becker said freddy gruber would just be like three hours late. Then he'd send you to get him food allen Was he probably very much he seems more regimented like it's 3 p.m Lesson starts you're done at four. Was was he more on time? well He was and largely because when you were in your lesson allen studio was in was in the basement as a it's a beautiful Uh wood paneled, uh, knotty pine finished basement with it's like a drummer's dream studio, right? But the entrance for the studio was an outside door And you'd go through kind of the little mud room where allen had like a practice pad set up in a drum stool where you'd wait for your lesson and when you got there, you know 10 15 minutes Earlier whatever there was all were always Somebody else already in their lesson. So if your lesson was going to start at 11, you know Pretty much right at 11 That door would open and the other guy would be coming out and allen would always introduce you like, you know Hey john, do you know jackie santos or hey john? Have you met terryland garrington and he was very, you know, uh, much a fellowship kind of drum drum brother Initiator or whatever, but so for that reason alone. He had such a a full roster of students that You know He was on time and You know, I mean he would go over if he had a cancellation or something like that Yeah But for the most part if you paid for your hour You got your hour and there was a guy right after you who was you know Who wanted his hour? So no, there was none of that sort of disorganized You know Six-hour lessons lucy goosey lucy goosey stuff. Yeah, that's funny. There's no right or wrong, but Yeah, you just think though about like, you know, if you're young and you're like, you know Like my mom says I need to be home, but like joe morello's keeping me here for five hours. It's like yeah Yeah, it's kind of funny. Well, I know. I know joe was a great teacher too and oh, yeah Absolutely So all right, obviously you did very well for yourself from from Taking, you know from from being a student of alan Why don't we talk a little bit more post lesson? About you but then also As we kind of get close to the end here like towards the end of alan's life I know he passed away from leukemia, but So after you finished lessons with him there you Again, you did very well for yourself Yeah, I mean You know, I've always been kind of gifted with natural ability or whatever, but And this is a good wrap up for us too because uh, you asked about my my time studying with alan Well, there was when I started in the early 70s and You know, there was a period in between Uh where I lived in miami, florida for a couple of years. I played on miami beach You know six nights a week in various bands and clubs and you know pretty much You know that that interrupted my lessons with alan So that was around 1975 And then in around 1977 I moved back to massachusetts and and and started to study with alan again And pretty much studied with him Right up until probably 1979 or 1980 and in 1980 I joined art blakie's big band and I was the second drummer in in arts It's called art blakie the jazz messengers big band Which was a band of uh, there's actually 13 Players, I think there was wow winton and branford marcellus Kevin and robin u-bank. So two sets of brothers then james williams on piano billy pierce on tenor saxophone Valerie panamara Who had been with art for some years on trumpet? um charles fambrough on bass Um whom I'm leaving out bobby watson on alto saxophone and then art and myself both playing drum set People would always say art Why why do you have two drummers and art would always say if two horn players can play together Two drummers can play together Great impression. That's awesome. So so I went on from after Art went back to small band I ended up being his road manager for over two years Which was a whole another Experience and job description But it it enabled me actually to write my first book which was art blakie's jazz messages So you can check that on amazon too But you know, I watched art blakie up close Pretty much four or five six nights a week because he always worked. He was always on the road You know, I went to europe with him probably a dozen times. We went to japan. We went to the caribbean So I was getting lessons of another sort of variety Uh with my two years being with art, but again Uh that kind of interrupted any studies with alan So what led to me actually teaching at berkeley and I started there in 1982 So I was with art from basically 1980 through 1982 But again, I mentioned this whole thing with the road. It was like I needed to get off the road And so billy pierce and james williams who were both in an arts band Uh had both Gone to berkeley and graduated from berkeley and had started teaching at berkeley So james or billy or both of them said look if you I had done a little teaching Uh at the university of mass for their extension Arts extension program or something like that So but uh that was the other thing you got from alan sort of just from being a student of his is You learned how to teach as well so Billy and james said well look if you want to teach you should go to berkeley So I was desperate to get off the road. I had my second kid coming and I had just had it up to here with the road and with Working for art Who I love but sure so When I started to teach at berkeley in 1982 I was able to go back and and continue to study with alan so I my tenure with Studying him was spread out over Basically 10 years so I probably studied from 82 to 84 with him Once I started at berkeley so because you know You get to berkeley and you go oh man, I got to get my you know, what together because uh All these these students are going to be like killing uh, no not There were a few right there were certainly exceptions there were exceptions, but believe me there was the whole The whole uh range of of abilities with students at berkeley, but at any rate I needed to kind of finish up with alan and and and you know really, you know kind of Continue to grow and the funny part of that story is that After studying with alan again Basically, I think 82 through 84 I wanted I wanted to really get a real Excellent pedagogy on chart interpretation And so ed sof was teaching in in connecticut outside of heartford I think it's weathersfield connecticut at bob gatson's music shop I forget the name of it But ed was the chart interpretation guy If you wanted to get your chart interpretation together You went to see ed sof And so what I ended up doing was the reverse of what I I did when I first started out studying with alan driving You know 180 miles round trip from western mass to boston and back Now I was going from boston to heartford connecticut every other week to study with ed Wow always in the wrong place Yeah, right or always in the right place depending on how you look at it. Exactly sure, but yeah ed was great I mean that's awesome man. You've got some great teachers. That's for sure Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you know, it's because I was curious, you know, I was I was and this is what you have to have is I was hungry for for drum knowledge, you know But I'll tell you another little On a final note a little funny story About when I went to study with ed was uh, you know I was like, yeah, so he said so, uh, you know, what do you want to do? Well, you know, I want to study chart interpretation. Yeah, everybody tells me you're the guy, you know He goes, okay. He said, uh So, uh, you've been playing for a while. I said, yeah, yeah, I played our blakie's big band, you know I studied with allen dawson for many many years and so he goes, okay Yeah, play something for me. So I don't know what I played, but you know, I played what I what I played And you know, it's just yeah, I see. Yeah, uh, yeah, I can see yeah, yeah Study with allen. Yeah, I hear I can hear that. Yeah, you said, but you know what he said, you know When you play You look like you've got a rope tied around your upper body Man and when he said that it's like this little little red light went off, right? I was like, man, you know what? That's how I feel and so ed had a whole nother uh Series of exercises based on moa technique where he just you know, uh, they were called motion studies Uh, and the gist of that was what he called the relaxed stick lift where you really you learn to That a wrist stroke starts at the shoulder and the elbow, right? But just those words and again that that you know that fierce honesty of Yeah, yeah, you saw yeah, you sound like you've been playing for a while. Yeah, but you know what? You look like you you've got a rope tied around your upper body And that was like it was liberating, you know, it was it was it was both, you know It stung a little bit, but it was also, uh What I needed to hear it was exactly what I needed in that moment You know, it sounds like a key takeaway to all of this really is is Obviously, this is about all Alan Dawson kind of in general But it's like when you go to a different teacher you get a completely different perspective and you get a completely different Sort of viewpoint about you know, maybe he's more of the you know Let's say posture and the movement kind of guy whereas Alan was the other kind of like, you know Music musical drumming kind of guy, which yeah Or I should say guy or girl or whoever you go to you you get different things from different people So it's yeah, yeah good to experiment with different teachers. Absolutely. Absolutely I think that was that that was one of the beauties about Berkeley too It's like you could go and study funk with Jackie Santos and you could go and Work on your fusion stuff with Casey charelle or you could go and work on your Polyrhythm stuff with Henrique D. Almeida, you know, there was But I think there's also when you have a teacher who has a Uh, you know a body of pedagogy that you know has a beginning and sort of an endpoint or at least, you know A trajectory that it's um, it's the word a modular or you know systematic that builds on each Previous step and I think it's important to to see that through too. So but definitely, you know Depending on what your your interest is No, I always and I I learned this from Alan any student that came through my door My first question is what do you want to get out of your lesson? Because guys come with you come to you because they have a particular thing in mind that they heard you do well Or you know, they know that this guy's if you want to get your hands together You go study with this guy. So absolutely absolutely and and in today's you know today's Information age is like boy. It's so much information and stuff available online, but Yeah, which can be great but can also be Overload where you don't know the right ways the right way to go Or what to practice. Yeah, or what to practice or what you need what you need to work on. Yeah Well, so um This has just been awesome But I want to say to people too that I think um, john and I are going to do our typical, uh, you know Couple couple minute 10 minute patreon bonus episodes So check that out and I think what we're going to talk about which I think john can obviously show us Uh shine some light on this is maybe what people You know, there's I'm sure there's people listening to this show who are looking to go to berkeley or a music music school So maybe john can shine some light in a quick little bonus episode about Things that you can practice before going to music school and I know guys like me who are past the college years You know in any, you know, you could be 50 years past it or 10 years past it But maybe it's things we can talk about but um, yeah not not to interrupt you But but just to give a plug for I have a whole course on the drum channel On on berkeley audition. So you could check that out. It's the drum channel I don't know if you're familiar with dom lombardi and uh, the dw guys But I have a whole course on auditioning specifically at berkeley that uh, you can go just like 40 bucks or something like that But the drum drum channel.com Oh, great. Well, check that out and the patreon bonus episode so On that note, um, man john, all right, so let's tell people as we as we close out this main episode Where can people Find you and if you're doing zoom lessons and all that good stuff What's going on with with you and and where they can find you? Yeah, I mean I have a small private practice that up until the pandemic was not online I had done a few random online lessons and then of course my last semester at berkeley Midway through the semester everything became online, but uh, yeah, I mean they could just Email me If you want to put up my email on your site, that's fine. It's Yes Uh, you know, I do do my private practice is now All online Other than that, I mean, there's no gigs these days. So I can't say come and hear me, but You know, hopefully when this when things return to normal, uh, you know, I've had a great Session here at my house every week with with bill pierce who people might know was uh in the last tony williams group Billy's like a brother. We've been playing together for years. So hopefully we'll have some gigs when things settle back down around the Boston area, but Yeah, uh, you know, there's the art plaking the jazz messengers big band recording if you can find that There was also some tracks from that that i'm on on It's called the history of art plaking the jazz messengers on blue note records. So You'll see me on there. Uh, yeah Hey, it's been a pleasure. It's uh, I've been I've enjoyed this. I'm sorry. I talked so much Oh, well, that's that's how podcast goes if you don't talk. I've had it the other way Which I mean again, you didn't talk too much, but we're sometimes I had 20 minutes in I'm like, oh boy we're out of uh We're out of things to talk about and we we I sort of said it before but obviously Alan Dawson sadly passed away From leukemia in february 23rd 1996. So today's february 16th. We're coming up on the day he died Yeah Yeah, 66 years old. That's so young. You know, it's such a shame. Yeah, so rest in peace Alan Dawson obviously his legacy has um Been very far-reaching and some people can still um to this day obviously learn a lot. So like john said Just youtube or google john ramsey island dawson and there's tons of great videos and uh, that's ramsey rmsa y To get that all cleaned up. So again Hang on uh, if if you're a patreon member look for the the bonus episode But um, john and I are gonna do a little extra conversation now and you can go to drumistrypodcast.com And there's a patreon button there. You can click if you want to join up and uh and get these bonus episodes So anyway on that note john, thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your your knowledge and wonderful experiences For your long career. Thank you part. I'm happy to do it If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning