 Testing, testing, one, two, three, testing microphone one, testing, testing, one, two, three, microphone two. Hello, everyone. My name is Jane Katten, and I'm the CEO at Agewell. I'd like to welcome you to our show today, Aging Matters. I'd also like to thank MVP Healthcare for their sponsorship for making this possible for our viewers every month. As you may know, Agewell is the largest area agency on Aging in the state of Vermont. We serve anyone who is over the age of 60 or under the age of 60 with a disability on long-term care Medicaid. Our goal is to make sure that we wrap around services to eligible clients to make sure that they can live independently and healthy in the setting of their choice. Each month on Aging Matters, we like to find topics of interest to all of us, but specifically to those of us who are getting older, topics that we may help to guide, educate, or dive more deeply, and especially if it relates to older Vermonters. Today, I'm really excited to introduce our guest, the Attorney General for the state of Vermont, Charity Clark, who is here today to speak with us about a really important topic, common scams and how to avoid them. So before I introduce Attorney General Clark, we also want to take a moment as we explore this topic to think about scams in general, but also how they may be targeted at older adults, the red flags that we should be on the lookout for, and what we can do if any of us become a victim. Welcome Attorney General. It's so nice to see you here today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Awesome. Well, before we dive into this really important topic, and I know you're a wonderful expert on scams, so we're excited about that. Maybe you can start and tell us a little bit about your background and your experience, and we're also excited that you were sworn in in January as the first woman, first female Attorney General for Vermont. So maybe you can tell us more about your role. I would be happy to. So you know, I actually, I grew up in southern Vermont, and I grew up working in my family's grocery store. So I kind of grew up in the marketplace. So no surprise, I eventually made my way to the consumer unit at the Vermont Attorney General's office, which is where I worked when I first arrived at the AG's office. I was an assistant attorney general, and I kind of, I like to joke with my staff that I'm an expert in two things. It's bagging groceries and scams. And I really believe that in our consumer unit, when we are enforcing the Consumer Protection Act, and we're protecting consumers, we're also protecting the marketplace. And that's kind of the idea. And you know, we're here to talk about scams today, but of course, we also handle a lot of other types of consumer problems in the marketplace. Scams, you know, are crimes. They have a unique set of properties compared with some of the other consumer complaints that we deal with and some of the other consumer violations that we deal with. But no surprise, I made my way, you know, doing consumer work. When I was chief of staff at the Attorney General's office, I was very fortunate to learn so much about the office in my role, but I also supervised the Consumer Assistance Program. The Consumer Assistance Program, of course, is when people are calling to complain about an issue or a report a scam, they're calling the Consumer Assistance Program. And most Vermonters, that's how they interface with our office. Through the Consumer Assistance Program. So of course, I, you know, once again, I'm finding myself here to talk about these issues, which are so important. I've been very fortunate to have that foundation before I became Attorney General. It has certainly informed my priorities. And those include a lot of these consumer issues. And as you mentioned, I am the first woman elected Attorney General of Vermont. It's been, you know, my deepest pleasure and privilege to be in this role. And I want to make sure that I'm bringing to the role perhaps a view that hasn't been had before. And so I have highlighted issues that do uniquely affect women, and that includes reproductive liberty and domestic violence and issues like that. And the other issue that, you know, maybe doesn't seem quite as high-profile really is consumer issues because women tend to be the consumers in families. They make the consumer choices for families. So it really is a very interesting perspective that I have, and I feel really fortunate. I could go on and on about scams, so I can't wait to tuck into it today. Awesome. Well, thank you for that background. I can't wait to ask you some questions and get all your insights. So I did a little bit of research on scams myself. Not nearly to the extent that you have expertise, but we know that older adults have long been a target of scams and that people over 50 especially account for more than half of the fraud victims that, you know, in these cases that do get reported. And not surprisingly maybe since 2020 or the pandemic, elder exploitation has more than doubled. So that's going to be an interesting thread for us to think about. And we can dive into a couple of questions right now. So Attorney General, could you please describe the legal definition of a scam and is there a difference between scams and fraud? Well, when we talk about a scam, we're talking about someone using the marketplace to steal money from you. And that's kind of the, that's the venue, that's the method. A fraud could be a number of other things, and in fact our Consumer Protection Act used to be called the Consumer Fraud Act. Fraud can be someone who, you know, works somewhere and they've established trust and they are, you know, a person you know, a person who is a member of the team and they're stealing money or, you know, tricking you in some way. But when we think about scams, really what we're talking about are almost always people who are overseas. They're very hard to track down, very hard to enforce our laws against them. And for that reason, we are always trying to educate because that's our best tool for fighting scams, which is why, you know, people who follow my work see me talking about scams quite a lot and that's why, because it's really important for us to talk about them to educate folks so that they can protect themselves. We have other, you know, tools that we use but when we talk about scams, that's really what we're envisioning. Mm-hmm. Okay, fantastic. That helps me understand a little bit more. So I imagine that scams come in many different disguises and I know for myself I've often wondered about those emails and I've learned a thing or two to try and figure that out but what are the most common types of scams that are reported to the Attorney General's office? So, you know, put yourself in the shoes of the scammer. They want a scam that's going to be effective. They want to steal your money. So when we educate about scams, they become less effective because we already know about them, we're not going to fall for them. I'll give you a couple of examples. The IRS scam. Remember that one? I mean, that was always in the top 10 most common scams we received at the Attorney General's office but then we all knew about it and so scammer stopped using it now. It's not even, we never hear about that scam. Another one is the car warranty scam. I mean, that is something that Gen Z like makes fun of on TikTok because it's so prevalent. It's not effective anymore. So that list of the top scams that we hear about really undulates from year to year. So this year, we always put out a list of the top 10 most common scams we receive. Scam reports we receive at the consumer assistance program and for 2022, the top of the list was the fake package scam, which I always say that is definitely one that I feel like I'm at risk to fall for is the fake package scam where you're getting a text or an email saying your FedEx package is on its way or your Amazon package is on its way. Do you want me to describe each one of these now or go into them later? Oh no. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, maybe in detail. Yeah, sure. So what they're trying to do is take your money or your information so that they can use that to steal your money. So your social security number, your bank account number, your credit card number, any personal information they can use to then steal your money if they can steal your identity, they can open up credit cards in your name, et cetera, et cetera. I know it's all very scary when you start to go down the road with that. But so the fake package scam is how that's their tool for that one is you got a fake package. And the other thing that I always say is there's a kind of magical formula for an effective scam. The first is a sense of urgency and the second is this spiking of your emotional response, whether it be fear, whether it be excitement like, ooh, I got a package. How exciting, even though you don't remember ordering the package or someone sent me a present. And so you're in your emotions, you're not thinking logically, there's a sense of urgency. And once you have those combinations, someone's trying to take your money, you don't know who they are and those things are going on, that should be a red flag. So let's talk about some of the other top scams. That's number one. Number two is the computer tech support scam. And for viewers who are watching, I'm with you, computers aren't necessarily my thing, so I don't like them to be trouble. And if a pop-up comes up, for example, and says, ooh, you have a virus, but don't worry, I'm Norton, I'm some legitimate company, but not really, they're faking it, click here and I can help you. And if you click on that, they're probably going to say, no problem, I can fix this for you. Just allow me to remotely access your computer, never, ever, ever. Let anybody access your computer remotely, because once they're in there, they can go anywhere they want, they can look at your browser history, if you've bookmarked your bank account, et cetera, they're in. And we've heard absolute chilling tales of people who've literally watched as their money was being moved to a scammer's account. It's truly chilling. The third one is the sweepstakes and lottery scam. So people will say you won the sweepstakes or the lottery, and in order to collect your winnings, you need to give some nominal amount of money. That's never going to happen. No legitimate sweepstakes or lottery is going to make you pay to get the money. And they're also going to either come in person or they're going to FedEx you or some official type of mail. They're never going to email you or call you in that way. So that's the number third scam that we hear about. Another imposter scam, imposter scams, or when someone is trying to pretend they're someone they're not, is the law enforcement imposter scam. So you'll get a call. You're about to be arrested. You have to pay this. And again, the emotion. You're afraid. You're worried. You have to do it now, or we're going to kind of the sheriff is on his way to your house to arrest you. And you're scared. And so you just give the information without thinking, because you're feeling. Your emotions are being spiked. So that's number four. And number five is the family emergency imposter, which is insidious. And we hear common tales about this one. And for older folks who are grandparents, think maybe you don't see your grandchild all that often, or your niece or nephew, your great niece or nephew. And so you get a phone call saying, I'm in Italy. And I've been in a car accident, or I'm in jail. And there was a misunderstanding. And you need to wire money. And you're not thinking clearly. And you're scared. And so you send the money before you check with the mom or dad or another person or call the Consumer Assistance Program at 1-800-649-2424 to say, I'm not sure if this is a scam. I'm checking in. You have lots of tools to try to prevent those from happening. So that's the top five. Do you want me to just list the remaining ones? Sure. Yeah, that would be great. I don't know if you want me to go into all the details, but fake websites or online listings, these are incredibly common. Craig's list, which had had a really large impact on our local newspapers, unfortunately, has a very tiny staff. And they do not have a staff that can sift through looking for scam listings. So I'll give you an example. Someone will list an apartment that's for rent. It's a real apartment. Someone probably listed it last year and they stole the pictures in the description. They repost it as if it's their own, with their own contact information. And they lower the price just enough that it's not too good to be true. So you're thinking, well, that's a pretty good deal, but is this a scam? And right now, I could probably find something on Craig's list that fit this bill. It's very, very common. So that's your fake listing. And then they want to deposit and security and stuff. Never sign a lease. Never send a deposit before you go to the building and meet with someone there. That's going to give you and tour the facility, tour the apartment. That's your way to protect yourself with that one. The debt collection scam is someone pretending to be a debt collector. You can kind of imagine that. Again, they're looking to get money. So that's an effective way. Deceitful solicitations, similar. Someone's trying to pretend they're a charity or some other organization that would get money from you. Identity theft is a catch-all when folks call our office and they're concerned about identity theft issues. We're always trying to be supportive of how to protect yourself. And if anyone watching feels they might be the victim of identity theft, or they're worried because they fell for a scam, called the Consumer Assistance Program, they can walk you through some of the steps to protect yourself from identity theft. We all kind of went through that a few years ago during the Equifax breach. I don't know if you remember that, but we all kind of went through how to protect ourselves from identity theft. And then the last one is the Medicare card phishing. So phishing with the PH when someone is trying to get information from you. So those are the top scams from 2022. We'll be back next year and tell you what the top scams are from 2023. And as always, I will predict that some of those will shift and we'll get new ones that seem to be effective for scammers and some of the other ones won't be as effective. Wow. That is quite a list. Yes. And so much to think about all the time. It's about computers. It's about telephone calls. It's all of the above. Attorney General, how many people in Vermont? You talked about accessing your 1-800 number. How many people in Vermont reported fraud last year? And do you believe that number might be higher because some people aren't reporting? They might be embarrassed or, oh, I fell for this. I'm just going to put it over here and not talk about it. Is the reporting numbers increasing as well? Or is it staying flat? Well, I think we had almost 4,000 scam reports last year. And that number is actually a little bit down. There's a few possible reasons. I think one of the reasons is that on the national level, they started putting into place protocols regarding robo-calls. And robo-calls aren't just annoying. I mean, for most of us and for most robo-calls, they're just a nuisance. But when they actually reach someone and they are able to convince that person to give them money, it can be incredibly devastating. And I'll just take a moment to say, we keep track of what we call scams with losses. Most of the scam reports that we get are simply reports. Like, I know this is a scam, but I just want to make you aware of it, which is incredibly helpful. Because so people should call and do that or go on our website and do that. Because then we know what the scams are and we can better educate. For example, if we hear about a pastor scam that's really hot, well, we might alert the pastors in Vermont we know of to say, like, beyond the lookout, you might want to tell your parishioners about the scam. So it's really helpful for folks to report those scams that come through. But so I think because of the change to the robo-call protocols, basically a lot of the scam robo-calls that used to go through are not getting through now. I mean, we still get a ton as I'm sure you have experience and certainly I have as well. But I think that that's helped a little bit. But to your question about under-reporting, I absolutely think that is only a drop in the bucket of the amount of scam attempts. Because I personally never pick up my phone if I don't know who's on the other end. Because this is one of the reasons. I've given this speech so many times that now I know. Don't answer the phone. Don't answer the phone. And the one time I was so tempted was I think it's called mirroring, where they literally have your phone number. They spoof your phone number. So my phone number was calling me. And I was just, I just wanted to answer. Oh, you wanted to talk to them so badly. I didn't. I followed my own rule, which is really, really helpful. So yes, I do think it's under-reported. I also should note that we have an initiative going on right now, more like a philosophy, about stopping scams together. And that involves us, you know, folks making reports. And also it involves people who are in a position to be super helpful, to get trained and get involved. That especially includes bank tellers and clerks at stores. And we have, all of us at CAP, have experienced folks who called in and said something, I'm a bank teller. Someone's here saying their boyfriend who lives in foreign country X wants, you know, needs this money because they're going to lose their house. It feels like a scam when you talk to them. And that person, by intervening, has saved this, their customer, you know, thousands of dollars. I mean, it really happens more often than you think. And so we are always so grateful to those folks who do that. And it's like you really could make a huge impact on someone's life. It's always a big victory. We applaud, you know, literally applaud at CAP when CAP, the Consumer Assistance Program, when we get a call like that. So it's really important that we are kind of looking out for each other and educating each other about scams and trying to protect folks. I do think that especially during the pandemic when we were much more isolated, isolation and loneliness, that makes you vulnerable too. Because you're tempted to pick up the phone, you know, because you're lonely. The other thing that I think another reason why older folks are targeted with scams is that the use of technology, you know, where something new happens and we're getting used to it. I'm going to give you an example. Remember, Words with Friends? Did you ever play Words with Friends? Well, I remember when Words with Friends came out and it was so much fun. And I had like my five friends who also played Words with Friends and then I would play my puzzle with the five of them and then I would be like, well, I want to play with someone else. And then scammers realized, oh, we can use Words with Friends and make friends with people we don't know because we're just playing a puzzle. And then they want to engage with you and they want to make friends with you and pretend you're friends and then the next thing you know, they're supposedly in the hospital or some nonsense, but really they're trying to take your money. So, you know, that's another reason why folks who are less tech savvy, I think, are targeted a little bit more than others because that new technology is being used by scammers to steal your money. Wow, so you brought up a couple of points and I want to go back to those. I was reading also on your website that about 50% of the calls made every day in this country are robocalls. That's incredible to me. Now, I also know that I guess I'll classify some robocalls as not necessarily bad things. We use a functionality at our agency that helps us distribute messages in emergencies and so on. So, you know, people may call those robocalls but I think they can be used for good, not necessarily for bad. But you alluded to robocalls and I guess my question is how illegal robocalls, you know, obviously pervasive, but what steps can we take to stop them? You talked about a protocol, what does that protocol look like? So, obviously, don't answer the phone, but what else? So, I agree with you about not all robocalls are bad. I'm gonna give two examples that I experience. One, when there's a snow day. We get a robocall, it's a snow day. And another is a reminder about your dentist appointment or some appointment. So, robocalls aren't necessarily bad and they aren't necessarily illegal in this state. Those are legitimate robocalls perfectly legal. The problem with regulating our way out of the robocall scam robocall problem is that scammers don't care, they're criminals. That you can make a law, they're just gonna break it. They don't care. So, legitimate dentist offices and schools are using robocalls the way they should be and the scammers, of course, are not because they're criminals. So, that's something to keep in mind when you think about what can be done about robocalls. The other thing to keep in mind is that because these are, you know, almost always overseas, these scammers, they're hard for us to pursue but there's always someone in the United States who's the landing spot for that scam robocall and my office has a robocall team that has been pursuing actions in court against some of these telephone carriers who are carrying the scam robocall into this country to say you are facilitating this scam from happening. So, we just, last week, I think, there's a company that was sued, not just by Vermont but by almost every attorney general in the country for, they brought in millions of robocalls, scam robocalls into just Vermont. Imagine the whole nation, how many. And the other thing that they did is the do not call registry, right? And scammers don't care. They're just gonna call you anyway but this is supposedly a legitimate company and they facilitated millions of scam robocalls to people on the do not call registry. So, very problematic. Well, that is someone we can pursue action against and we have and we'll continue to do that. We're always looking for ways to try to be more effective to protect Vermonters and so I'm really grateful that that new approach a couple of years ago was taken by our office and really proud of the work that they're doing. Awesome, well, I'd love to hear about those steps especially on a very national or international level too. Attorney General, if someone's been a victim of fraud, what resources are available to help? So, you've spoken about your office, your line, what other things should our viewers be thinking about to help educate themselves? Well, the first thing to keep in mind is if you have experienced what we call a scam with loss. So, if you have experienced that, call the Consumer Assistance Program immediately and I wanna take a moment to talk about the different ways we pay for things. Some of the ways we pay for things have no consumer protection like cash, right? You spend $10 on something, goodbye. There's no, rarely is there a trace, maybe you have a receipt. I mean, there's not much you can do. A credit card is not that way. There are a lot of protections in place for consumers when it comes to paying for things with a credit card. Well, not surprisingly, scammers don't want you to pay with a credit card. They want you to pay with cash, cryptocurrency or gift cards. And I'm not talking about like a gift card, you know, to Home Depot. I'm talking about the gift card that says Visa on it. And they will ask to be paid using these gift cards. And we have a jokie motto that's a real motto, gift cards are for gifts. So if someone's getting married, you get them the Visa gift card, that's a great gift. But if someone is asking for payment via gift card, that's a scam. You know, I need to know nothing more to tell you that is a scam. There's no protection, it's just like cash. And cryptocurrency is the same. There's no consumer protections built into that. Wiring money is, there's a moment in time when you can do something about it. So and gift cards to some degree as well. So if you have experienced a scam with loss, you're gonna get on the phone, you're gonna call 1-800-649-2424, which is the consumer assistance program. Tell them what happened and see if they can get in touch with the appropriate bank or company to see if they can unwind some of that. And it's rare, but we have had success, especially if it's the first 24 hours. So that is my number one tip when it comes to what happens if I have been scammed. Do that. And then we'll also, depending on how much information you provided the scammer, we can give you the steps for identity theft, who to call, how to, what to do. And the other thing to keep in mind, if you are watching this and you're thinking I am so afraid of scams, it's almost like keeping me from buying things. It keeps me up at night. Consider freezing your credit. You can freeze your credit and then unfreeze it if you need to buy a car or make some transaction. It's a nuisance, but if it's really bothering you or if you have experienced a scam with loss or a scam where you've given up some of your personal information, that can be a way to protect someone from opening up a credit card in your name because your credit has been frozen. So something to keep in mind for folks too. Fantastic. Well, I'm thinking about all of this information that you've shared. I am grateful for having learned about scams this afternoon and some tips how to avoid them. Thank you so much, Attorney General, for being part of our show this afternoon. And for our viewers, just a couple of other points. One thing I've learned about, especially cybersecurity, cyber scams, if any of you out there are into technology, your savvy techies, take a cybersecurity training course, get online, there's programs out there through the universities, colleges, just take a quick certification. They take only 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and they will be invaluable to start to point you to those red flags that Attorney General was telling us about. I've taken a few myself and I know it helps me spot the phishing scams especially and makes me more aware when I'm online. The other point is, do take some time and get onto the Attorney General's website. The consumer protection number, I'm going to share it again, 1-800-649-2424, but also there's some great videos and education training tools on that website. I happened to know somebody who helped to do a video for your program and it was on scams and it was beautifully done, so take a look at that and digest it all, take it all in. So Attorney General Clark, thanks again for joining us, so appreciative. And to our viewers, if you're seeking support of any kind, remember the Attorney General's number, as well as H. Wells Helpline, we're here to help, we're available during business hours, five days a week, and that number's 1-800-642-5119 for anything that you may need and we can help to direct you. I hope you've enjoyed our show today. We look forward to seeing you next time on Aging Matters. Thank you.